Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nu~]

Not having a career for one. It isn't glamorous, but your friend found something that worked for him. He knew pursuing his (incredibly risky) passion wouldn't worked out, and he made the right call; that's the thing about growing up, you need to learn to make smart compromises or else you end up in a situation where your degree is useless.

I think what's trying to be said is that it's upsetting that in a society such as competitive smash or the "real world", picking whatever is more realistic and sure to work out triumphs over what you love doing and have a deep passion for.

It's not that becoming successful is bad, it's that you never got to be successful in the way YOU wanted to be. You had to conform to survive

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think what's trying to be said is that it's upsetting that in a society such as competitive smash or the "real world", picking whatever is more realistic and sure to work out triumphs over what you love doing and have a deep passion for.

It's not that becoming successful is bad, it's that you never got to be successful in the way YOU wanted to be. You had to conform to survive

That is the cold reality for a lot of fighting games and while it's sad, it is ultimately the truth.

I couldn't do solo Doc so rather than wholly conform I made him my secondary and I invested in better characters while not forgoing what I loved. It's entirely possible to compromise if you are truly THAT passionate about the character you like regardless of their viability. The only time this becomes an unfortunate non-reality is if said character is incredibly complex or just unwieldly as a secondary, which doesn't apply to Dr. Mario, but it would for someone like Pac-Man.

 

[Game7a1]

There's some new tech. G&W Diver helmet repels Wario's Waft. +1 realism.

I wonder if the (Dr.) Mario Bros. could do the same with their heads.

 

[Wintropy]

While I am a big ol' unabashed character loyalist, I agree that you have to be willing to make concessions.

My favourite character happens to be good. That's a big help. If I mained Palutena instead, it'd be significantly more difficult for me to stay loyal to her. For better or worse, sometimes you have to be realistic and pick your favourite character within a smaller pool of viable options.

 

[Djent]

Before last night/this morning, Komorikiri hadn't beaten Ranai since the very early days of the game, back when he mained Brawler and Ranai wasn't quite as consistent. And then he does it with Cloud on his first try. I sure hope we discover some "counterplay" soon, because the trajectory of this character's development is incredibly worrying.

 

[TurboLink]

Before last night/this morning, Komorikiri hadn't beaten Ranai since the very early days of the game, back when he mained Brawler and Ranai wasn't quite as consistent. And then he does it with Cloud on his first try. I sure hope we discover some "counterplay" soon, because the trajectory of this character's development is incredibly worrying.

What exactly is the problem?

 

[FullMoon]

To be honest I only don't play a top tier character because none of them click with me very well, and it's not for lack of trying considering I've tried Sheik, ZSS, Mario, MK, Fox and Rosalina among others.

I'd just rather play with the characters I actually have fun with (even though I still think Greninja is high tier but eeeh) than just playing a top tier that doesn't really mesh well with me even if they're fundametally better characters.

 

[Ffamran]

This is simply an observation of mine, but do any of people here thinks Luigi's recovery is actually not that gimpable as long as the Luigi can consistently JC for recovering?

Yes. I do know only Mr. CC, Boss, and a few others can do it consistently, especially Mr. CC, who one can say he has nearly complete mastery of it (For those who doesn't know, Mr. CC's mashing capabilities was tested. He broke the WR of button mashing). But the more I think about it, the more I believe it's Missile that worsens Luigi's recovery while JC makes it safer and better.

I've wailed at this move for quite some time now, and I'm just getting started. Missile has tons of end lag in the air, 41 frames of landing lag on the ground. If one was to use it openly, it's death wish.

Jumpless Cyclone can also gain decent height while preserving your double jump. One can say 'Thing lags for 55 or so frames bruh'. Yes, it does. But the more below you are, the harder you are to gimp. Double jump SJP can be mixed up from straight snapping to the ledge or popping up in front of it first, so Luigi's recovery afterwards isn't exactly free nor predictable (Unless you're Rosalina's D-air or the like).

Some characters with great D-airs like Falcon or Ganon can't risk going that far too low, and I don't think any of their aerials that are capable of gimping are lagless enough to guarantee a recovery afterwards (Unless you're playing on walled omegas and your opponent just happen to have top tier wall jump). And double jump SJP is tricky to gimp since Luigi should be bracing for a stage spike and the aforementioned mixup.

Yes, we all know Missile is very gimpable. My implying is: It effectively worsens Luigi's recovery by a significant margin. Even a misfire won't save you from gimpability if the opponent expects it. And the fact it can't be differentiated from a regular Missile before launch decrease its functionality further, if I know this Missile is going to misfire, I shouldn't have fully charged the thing and recover much faster than normal.

Imagine Luigi using Missile to recover anywhere nearby the ledge in which you can just run off and swat it away. Now imagine Luigi going very deep, Jumpless Cyclone, and mixing up his SJP path. The latter is undoubtely the less gimpable option. Using Missile not only is a huge commitment in the first place, not using it at all while offstage may actually improve Luigi's recovery because people can't just D-AIR ****ING SPIKE! the thing and actually has to go deep + take risks OR read Luigi's recovery patterns.

Missiling far away can work, just not with projectiles. The fact majority of projectiles go horizontally is another point for Jumpless Cyclone.

Any people think similiarly?

TL;DR My conclusions: RIP Missile. WeSpinNdMash2Win.

Er... At high enough percentages or if he's launched at a high enough angle, could Luigi try to use Luigi Missile to recover a high and mix things up?

I wonder if the (Dr.) Mario Bros. could do the same with their heads.

They have lower I-frames, so while it would be possible, it's much more risky for them. Also, pretty sure their heads are proportionally smaller than Mr. G&W's. The Doc and Luigi's Up Smashes make their heads invincible for 5 frames, 9-13, while Mario's makes his invincible for 4 frames, 9-12. All of them match their hit frames. Mr. G&W, however, has his head invincible for 22 frames, 4-25, but he hits on frames 24-25. There's also, Peach, Rosalina, and Wario who are part of the Mario franchise with invincible Up Smashes, but considering that Peach and Rosalina are taller, it's not going to have as much protection since the rest of their body is still a hurtbox. Wario's head expands during his Up Smash, and it's invincible for frames 4-18, 15 frames, while hitting on frames 11-13.

Also, this talk of character use between the NA, EU, and AU? vs. Japan... I think this was mentioned before by someone, but wasn't there a Street Fighter player who traveled to Japan, noticed how they played the MU and tried to master their characters. After that, the player took on that mindset and tried to master his character. I don't remember who it was, but I think he was a Zangief player? I think? I don't remember.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

To be honest I only don't play a top tier character because none of them click with me very well, and it's not for lack of trying considering I've tried Sheik, ZSS, Mario, MK, Fox and Rosalina among others.

I'd just rather play with the characters I actually have fun with (even though I still think Greninja is high tier but eeeh) than just playing a top tier that doesn't really mesh well with me even if they're fundametally better characters.

I think it's important to pick a character that fits your playstyle. I don't think it's as easy as picking a top tier. I nean you should enjoy the character that you're playing.

 

[Zelder]

I believe it was Snake Eyez, legendary Zangief player, who traveled to Japan and took notes on their different mindset.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I believe it was Snake Eyez, legendary Zangief player, who traveled to Japan and took notes on their different mindset.

Almost certain that the differences between US and Japan was well known before snakeyez went to Japan.

 

[Ffamran]

What exactly is the problem?

Because they're be an influx of wannabe Cloud players who clearly have no idea what they're doing and just cookie cutting. This happened with Diddy, DK, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, and almost to Ryu and ZSS. It's pathetic and sad when it happens.

Almost certain that the differences between US and Japan was well known before snakeyez went to Japan.

Difference was applying them. People know the differences, but sometimes don't apply them for whatever reason.

 

[Djent]

What exactly is the problem?

That such a low-effort character is capable of doing what high/top-tiers such as Sonic have struggled with in such a short amount of time. It's shaping up to be Luigi all over again, except this time top players actually gravitate towards him instead of leaving him to terrorize mid-level players. In addition and related to that last point, he doesn't get bodied by Sheik, so there's nothing to "check" his spread.

 

[Jams.]

The power of upwards DI and Cloud's air speed being decent is very, very impressive. Komorikiri is just such a good player, Cloud seems to work well with him.

I imagine if people start dealing with this strat, Komori will start mixup it up with Up+B and recreate the problems for his enemies all over again.

Did I say DI up yet? DI up, it does wonders.

DI up is much less braindead in this game than it is in Brawl, where it's almost always the best option when you're launched horizontally, because it increases the knockback you take. Thus, you have to assess "how high do I need to be launched to still recover?" versus "how can I DI to survive this move?" This is often a split second decision where you can die if you make the wrong choice.

With Cloud, it's an important tool to survive, but many characters with great recoveries can and should always opt for survival DI and not have to make this decision. I think you know this, but I just wanted to elaborate about the risks and thought process behind DIing up.

 

[S_B]

What I get from the commentaries is that American players are truly unprepared for item play. Commentators got all jumpy because a character that can't spawn items is using them well.

This is something I've been hammering home on the Bowser discord: if a character has spawnable items that they can use, you better as **** know how to use them just as well as that character does (especially where the item is unique and they can only spawn one at a time).

Everyone can "key dribble" like Pac-man, make good use of Diddy's banana, and perform the "Mr.Eric Special" if they get ahold of ROB's gyro, but most players just mindlessly hand these items back to the opponent immediately on catching them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

DI up is much less braindead in this game than it is in Brawl, where it's almost always the best option when you're launched horizontally, because it increases the knockback you take. Thus, you have to assess "how high do I need to be launched to still recover?" versus "how can I DI to survive this move?" This is often a split second decision where you can die if you make the wrong choice.

With Cloud, it's an important tool to survive, but many characters with great recoveries can and should always opt for survival DI and not have to make this decision. I think you know this, but I just wanted to elaborate about the risks and thought process behind DIing up.

Oh I'm aware of how not braindead it is, but when it comes to 2 of the 3 characters I play (Cloud, Doc), it's basically the default option IMO. If you die because of it you'd likely be too far out horizontally to recover properly/not get bodied anyways, so in some cases (these in particular) I find it to be the best option all of the time.

It varies with characters who have better recoveries definitely, but with Cloud and Doc I find it to be the advantageous choice. I'll be careful about how I phrase this in the future though haha, but yeah I meant in relation to Cloud. DI up is basically the king when it comes to being knocked offstage as Cloud.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think what's trying to be said is that it's upsetting that in a society such as competitive smash or the "real world", picking whatever is more realistic and sure to work out triumphs over what you love doing and have a deep passion for.

It's not that becoming successful is bad, it's that you never got to be successful in the way YOU wanted to be. You had to conform to survive

That's not upsetting, that's reality. Getting diagnosed with cancer at an early age is "upsetting." Getting successful in the way YOU want to be is absolutely possible, but it requires taking a big risk on our part. Either you have the guts, skill, luck and determination to pull it off, or you don't. There's no real point to complaining about it. And I hate to break it you man, but conforming to survive is how we've been operating since the dawn of humanity.

It's called...

Well, you know.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Are we really that worried about Cloud becoming domineering. Really, guys.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jams.]

That such a low-effort character is capable of doing what high/top-tiers such as Sonic have struggled with in such a short amount of time. It's shaping up to be Luigi all over again, except this time top players actually gravitate towards him instead of leaving him to terrorize mid-level players. In addition and related to that last point, he doesn't get bodied by Sheik, so there's nothing to "check" his spread.

With all of his recent results, it's likely that the top players have been labbing against this character and preparing counterplay. Hopefully we can see some of that manifest at Genesis.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Also, this talk of character use between the NA, EU, and AU? vs. Japan... I think this was mentioned before by someone, but wasn't there a Street Fighter player who traveled to Japan, noticed how they played the MU and tried to master their characters. After that, the player took on that mindset and tried to master his character. I don't remember who it was, but I think he was a Zangief player? I think? I don't remember.

Zero also noted in a video that the Japanese emphasize tech and character mastery far more, while Westerners place more emphasis on beating the opposing player mentally. Really both sides are pretty important for getting better, and overemphasizing one at the expense of the other can cause you to get stuck. Both Brawl and Smash 4 have the stigma of being considered non-technical games in the West, and it can be a problem when newer players hear that they don't need to work hard on tech and character optimization. My scene has a lot of players who play multiple Smash games and do well off of fundamentals in Smash 4 but clearly treat it as a second or third game, and the mindset surrounding these games does hinder their development in the US, while the Japanese have had a better mindset regarding them.

 

[Halifax?]

Character loyalty isn't that bad unless your character isn't viable.

And there it is.

It's less about character loyalty and more about not trying to take the easiest path to victory at all times because you potentially don't learn as much in the process.

Mango on stream once talked about how the worst mindset is to try and be competitive at all times, even when practicing. Practice is for trying new things, crazy things, and while ultimately winning is your goal, experimentation and not being locked into the need for victory at all times is more beneficial. To some extent, that's how I see the pursuit of easy wins (pre-patch Diddy, for example). Like beating your practice partner, that might be satisfying in the short term but potentially harms you competitively in the long run. Not saying people can't or shouldn't switch characters, or that one should be satisfied regardless of whether or not they win, but that "playing to win" sometimes involves more than just striving for the victory screen at every opportunity.

Okay I misunderstood the intended message of the OP. I tend to agree with your sentiment. It's why Nairo does Grand Finals shenanigans, people get super salty, and he ends up knocking out Zero.

 

[TTTTTsd]

With all of his recent results, it's likely that the top players have been labbing against this character and preparing counterplay. Hopefully we can see some of that manifest at Genesis.

Honestly, Imma be real. Cloud just feels like what happened with Ryu except at a more accelerated pace. I don't think he's as good as Ryu is overall, but with what he's doing in the meta right now, it's kinda like what Ryu took a couple of months to do. Ryu players like 9B ended up doing stuff like this although it took FAR longer but once Ryu was figured out, the results fell in place from there.

I feel like there will be an obvious plateau and slowdown in the midst of all of this, IMO all this has done is confirm to me his viability and obvious strengths as a character.

Oh and that he's kinda stupid but welcome to being a top/viable character in this game for the most part.

I'm still going to wait and see about Genesis but call me on this. We'll have at least one Cloud in Top 16. Perhaps more. He's easily one of the most viable sword characters in the game right now.

 

[FullMoon]

This is something I've been hammering home on the Bowser discord: if a character has spawnable items that they can use, you better as **** know how to use them just as well as that character does (especially where the item is unique and they can only spawn one at a time).

Everyone can "key dribble" like Pac-man, make good use of Diddy's banana, and perform the "Mr.Eric Special" if they get ahold of ROB's gyro, but most players just mindlessly hand these items back to the opponent immediately on catching them.

I actually have been practicing Z-Drop stuff because of that. Stealing stuff like Pac-Man's fruit and knowing how to use it against him instead of just trying to keep him from spawning it helps a lot to hinder him for some time.

I feel like everybody should take some time to learn item play like that, it makes MUs against item-spawning characters significantly easier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Before last night/this morning, Komorikiri hadn't beaten Ranai since the very early days of the game, back when he mained Brawler and Ranai wasn't quite as consistent. And then he does it with Cloud on his first try. I sure hope we discover some "counterplay" soon, because the trajectory of this character's development is incredibly worrying.

There is no counter play besides get his ass off the stage ASAP and **** his face.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Before last night/this morning, Komorikiri hadn't beaten Ranai since the very early days of the game, back when he mained Brawler and Ranai wasn't quite as consistent. And then he does it with Cloud on his first try. I sure hope we discover some "counterplay" soon, because the trajectory of this character's development is incredibly worrying.

I'm aware I posted about this earlier but this thing kinda happened with Nairo and Esam too except with like, Dr. Mario vs. Pika (A MU that happens to be pretty good for Doc). The circumstances were way different and there's a ton of different factors buttttt

Perhaps Komorikiri found a character that is more effective in the Villager matchup than Sonic, whether it be personal or factually better? We'll have to see, friend!

 

[RonNewcomb]

Honestly, Imma be real. Cloud just feels like what happened with Ryu except at a more accelerated pace. I don't think he's as good as Ryu is overall, but with what he's doing in the meta right now, it's kinda like what Ryu took a couple of months to do. Ryu players like 9B ended up doing stuff like this although it took FAR longer but once Ryu was figured out, the results fell in place from there.

Ryu only took that long because he was waiting on the hitlag fix & shieldstun patch.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ryu only took that long because he was waiting on the hitlag fix & shieldstun patch.

That's a good point as well. I imagine if the mechanics adjustment was there before Ryu came out it'd be like, maybe still a bit longer (he's not as intuitive as Cloud is on a basic level) but yeah.

Third party power

 

[LancerStaff]

Character loyalty is an interesting thing for me... You'd probably look at me and think that I was going to be as crazy obsessive with Pit regardless of how good he was. Well, no. I'm here playing Smash because I like playing Smash. Like with other games, I don't see much of a point in struggling with a character/option when other, better, options exist. Essentially, I want to actually play the game instead of trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

 

[C0rvus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

I was just getting into Lucas, and I find this. This hurts him a lot.
Edit: WHOOPS wrong video lmao.

 

[TTTTTsd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv-vY8DPTvo

I was just getting into Lucas, and I find this. This hurts him a lot.

I would agree but USmash is a pretty bad move anyways (the endlag, everything) and it is 100% only for being a styling kinda guy. You'd be better off just going Grab > Uair or something to kill someone.

Or Lucas FSmash, which is actually a really solid FSmash IMO all things considered. Much better than Ness's.

 

[C0rvus]

I would agree but USmash is a pretty bad move anyways (the endlag, everything) and it is 100% only for being a styling kinda guy. You'd be better off just going Grab > Uair or something to kill someone.

Or Lucas FSmash, which is actually a really solid FSmash IMO all things considered. Much better than Ness's.

That was the wrong video lol whoops. Fixed it. You can SDI out of his nair it seems. That's his main combo tool.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That was the wrong video lol whoops. Fixed it. You can SDI out of his nair it seems. That's his main combo tool.

Oh, okay. I watched again.

I usually do D-Throw > Fair actually, or D-Throw > Uair if I think Fair will whiff.

It's a .5% damage difference with Fair but it's pretty sufficient. It works better on fastfallers (no surprise).

I'm also interested in how he conducted the tests because if he's doing it in slow motion via input then it's probably easier to SDI like that, when the game is running at half speed. EDIT: Eyup he is. You should try and find a local buddy and see how easy it is to SDI in real time (which is far more relevant). EDIT 2: Nevermind, rewatched. Yeah I'll keep using Fair I guess whenever I get Lucas when I pick Random *shrug*

 

[LancerStaff]

That's... Uh, wow. And since it's a long move too even if you can't just SDI instantly on reaction it's still very easy to escape.

Glad escaping Pit's moves usually puts the opponent in a really bad position.

Oh, okay. I watched again.

I usually do D-Throw > Fair actually, or D-Throw > Uair if I think Fair will whiff.

It's a .5% damage difference with Fair but it's pretty sufficient. It works better on fastfallers (no surprise).

I'm also interested in how he conducted the tests because if he's doing it in slow motion via input then it's probably easier to SDI like that, when the game is running at half speed. EDIT: Eyup he is. You should try and find a local buddy and see how easy it is to SDI in real time (which is far more relevant).

For the most part it was 1x speed though...

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's... Uh, wow. And since it's a long move too even if you can't just SDI instantly on reaction it's still very easy to escape.

Glad escaping Pit's moves usually puts the opponent in a really bad position.



For the most part it was 1x speed though...

That's what I get for tabbing away. Bodied. I edited again for clarification.

On the bright side Lucas Fair now has less landing lag than his Nair by one frame so you should just be using it more in general now, honestly. Even out of shorthop.

 

[Flux0r]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

I was just getting into Lucas, and I find this. This hurts him a lot.
Edit: WHOOPS wrong video lmao.

This doesn't help either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can anybody tell me how Vs. is? I'm asking because I want to pick up a character for and .

 

[Lavani]

I wonder if the (Dr.) Mario Bros. could do the same with their heads.

-characters with intangibility instead of invincibility-

If the waft was only going to hit their head, it could theoretically be dodged. The difference is that the characters Ffamran mentioned have partial intangibility (limb basically becomes a sword), versus G&W whose usmash has actual invincibility on the helmet (can be hit, but the hit is effectively nullified). Even if his entire body's in the attack range he's shielded if it hits the helmet first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

I was just getting into Lucas, and I find this. This hurts him a lot.
Edit: WHOOPS wrong video lmao.

Oh, okay. I watched again.

I usually do D-Throw > Fair actually, or D-Throw > Uair if I think Fair will whiff.

It's a .5% damage difference with Fair but it's pretty sufficient. It works better on fastfallers (no surprise).

I'm also interested in how he conducted the tests because if he's doing it in slow motion via input then it's probably easier to SDI like that, when the game is running at half speed. EDIT: Eyup he is. You should try and find a local buddy and see how easy it is to SDI in real time (which is far more relevant). EDIT 2: Nevermind, rewatched. Yeah I'll keep using Fair I guess whenever I get Lucas when I pick Random *shrug*

Worth noting that Lucas' nair has a x2.0 SDI multiplier. Seems to be an intentional flaw of the move.

 

[L9999]

Worth noting that Lucas' nair has a x2.0 SDI multiplier. Seems to be an intentional flaw of the move.

Just like his phantom hitting Uair that doesn't work at all? Lucas still seems like a rushed mess that was coded in a week.

 

[meowth_]

It's clear as day that Cloud is broken. We can let the trolls dance around it facetiously but anyone with a brain can see the blatantly broken elements of this fighter. In my opinion, having been around the block and on the scene for many years, Cloud is obviously an A tier character right now, and likely S tier if big timers lose to him consistently for the next few big tournaments.

 

[BSP]

Before last night/this morning, Komorikiri hadn't beaten Ranai since the very early days of the game, back when he mained Brawler and Ranai wasn't quite as consistent. And then he does it with Cloud on his first try. I sure hope we discover some "counterplay" soon, because the trajectory of this character's development is incredibly worrying.

Was this recorded somewhere?