Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Iron Maw]

First Nario and now Ranai lol

Cloud taking names.

 

[UberMadman]

AND ALLY JUST KNOCKED OUT 9B HOLY **** THE UPSETS

CAN'T SLEEP ON MARIO BOYS

 

[TriTails]

This is simply an observation of mine, but do any of people here thinks Luigi's recovery is actually not that gimpable as long as the Luigi can consistently JC for recovering?

Yes. I do know only Mr. CC, Boss, and a few others can do it consistently, especially Mr. CC, who one can say he has nearly complete mastery of it (For those who doesn't know, Mr. CC's mashing capabilities was tested. He broke the WR of button mashing). But the more I think about it, the more I believe it's Missile that worsens Luigi's recovery while JC makes it safer and better.

I've wailed at this move for quite some time now, and I'm just getting started. Missile has tons of end lag in the air, 41 frames of landing lag on the ground. If one was to use it openly, it's death wish.

Jumpless Cyclone can also gain decent height while preserving your double jump. One can say 'Thing lags for 55 or so frames bruh'. Yes, it does. But the more below you are, the harder you are to gimp. Double jump SJP can be mixed up from straight snapping to the ledge or popping up in front of it first, so Luigi's recovery afterwards isn't exactly free nor predictable (Unless you're Rosalina's D-air or the like).

Some characters with great D-airs like Falcon or Ganon can't risk going that far too low, and I don't think any of their aerials that are capable of gimping are lagless enough to guarantee a recovery afterwards (Unless you're playing on walled omegas and your opponent just happen to have top tier wall jump). And double jump SJP is tricky to gimp since Luigi should be bracing for a stage spike and the aforementioned mixup.

Yes, we all know Missile is very gimpable. My implying is: It effectively worsens Luigi's recovery by a significant margin. Even a misfire won't save you from gimpability if the opponent expects it. And the fact it can't be differentiated from a regular Missile before launch decrease its functionality further, if I know this Missile is going to misfire, I shouldn't have fully charged the thing and recover much faster than normal.

Imagine Luigi using Missile to recover anywhere nearby the ledge in which you can just run off and swat it away. Now imagine Luigi going very deep, Jumpless Cyclone, and mixing up his SJP path. The latter is undoubtely the less gimpable option. Using Missile not only is a huge commitment in the first place, not using it at all while offstage may actually improve Luigi's recovery because people can't just D-AIR ****ING SPIKE! the thing and actually has to go deep + take risks OR read Luigi's recovery patterns.

Missiling far away can work, just not with projectiles. The fact majority of projectiles go horizontally is another point for Jumpless Cyclone.

Any people think similiarly?

TL;DR My conclusions: RIP Missile. WeSpinNdMash2Win.

 

[DunnoBro]

Also can throw people into the can.

Not really, only a completely fresh (never shot) can positioned directly in front/behind dhd but not too close to interrupt the actual throw animation is the only non-platform scenario it kills. And even then outside of the extremely rare positioning, it still only kills around 150% unless it's closer to the side blastzones.

The tiny bit of frame trapping ability fox has with bair and footstool gimps off low % dthrows with fair alone is superior when it comes to securing kills. DHD is better at damage racking off throws, but that's it. (and is still low tier in that regard)

 

[Jamurai]

Why does the majority of America think that Duck Hunt is bad, but Japan thinks he's pretty good? Is there someone over there pushing his meta and winning enough for people to think that?

I know the meta is different there. But people wouldn't come to that conclusion without results regardless of how the meta is.

The Japanese DHD player Brood does rather well over there.

 

[Iron Maw]

Komokiri just won the tournament beating Ranai again at GF.

 

[Teshie U]

Brood is actually playing the character in a much better style than NA Duck Hunts. Much like Ranai does with Villager.

 

[Nu~]

Can someone explain why abadango ranks G&W so high? Even if he places well over there, I'm still confused as to why

 

[~ Gheb ~]

AND ALLY JUST KNOCKED OUT 9B HOLY **** THE UPSETS

CAN'T SLEEP ON MARIO BOYS

How's that a big upset? They've played once before and it was pretty close, this time round Ally had the upper hand by a bit. Ally has very good results and 9B is still wildly inconsistent. You pretty much have to expect them two to go back and forth at this point.

 

[Teshie U]

If Cloud players are beating Sheik and Villager players, we might need to examine if his recovery is actually much of a weakness.
I think I saw more Ryu getting gimped than Cloud.

 

[DunnoBro]

The Japanese DHD player Brood does rather well over there.

Not... Really, he never breaks 9th and has gone 0-2 more than once.

Yusan's more consistent but still has average results. There are random bowser jrs and ganondorfs in similar placings, not sure why people single out DHD for japanese results, but they're really nothing spectacular.

 

[UberMadman]

How's that a big upset? They've played once before and it was pretty close, this time round Ally had the upper hand by a bit. Ally has very good results and 9B is still wildly inconsistent. You pretty much have to expect them two to go back and forth at this point.

You're right, I'm sorry, it was the hype talking. That said, Ally has proven that Mario really is a top tier threat, and it was quite an impressive display. The matchup looked even, maybe slightly in Ryu's favor because Ally has to start playing much safer when he hit around 70%.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brood has a couple of noteworthy achievements that make him easily stand out, such as beating Nietono.

Ally has proven that Mario really is a top tier threat[...]

No. Ally is a top-tier threat.

 

[DunnoBro]

Brood has a couple of noteworthy achievements that make him easily stand out, such as beating Nietono.



No. Ally is a top-tier threat.

Like Ally though, Brood is a brawl god who almost won apex. I think it's a clear case of the player just shining through more than their character, if he was more consistent overall then I'd be more willing to accept the optimism over DHD, But as things are it seems clear to me it's a mix of bracket luck and sheer player skill in regards to how he does.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't disagree.

 

[MistressRemilia]

While you're talking about Duck Hunt metagame in Japan
As well as having Brood, they also have Yusan, another notable Duck Hunt, who has beaten 9B a couple of times.

 

[Nobie]

All this talk about how "it's not the character that's amazing, it's the player!"

That's how a competitive game SHOULD be.

That's not saying tiers are meaningless, or that some characters aren't better than others, but that we focus too much on who's top tier vs. high tier or whatever. If a character gives a player the potential to win, that's really the important thing.

Seeing Ranai's VIllager reminds me of all of the ex-VIllager mains who walked away from the character once people stopped playing customs and Up B was nerfed. They all could've stuck with the character, learned from Ranai's matches, and helped boost Villager as a top threat in every region, but once the easy win was gone they abandoned ship.

I think the Western fighting game scene is a little too focused on winning sometimes. That sounds ridiculous given the goal of competition, but in Japan you can see how it's just as important to perfect yourself and your character as it is to get that W. Obviously people there will also drop characters and such, but you see through their play how much they seek mastery.

Not to say that people outside of Japan can't or don't have a similar mindset, but the general difference reminds me of some old martial arts movie where the American student goes to a dojo and wants to know immediately how to kick someone's head off, and the master has to teach them that it's the wrong way to think about martial arts in the first place.

And of course, ultimately, the better you know your character, the better chance you have to win.

 

[Halifax?]

If I've learned anything from the Excellent Adventures of Gootecks and Mike Ross it's that being a character loyalist is not a competitive mindset.

 

[wedl!!]

Character loyalty isn't that bad unless your character isn't viable. Developing a character is like... a good thing.

It doesn't stop you from developing yourself as a player. You aren't blinded from the rest of the roster just because you have a passion to play your character.

I know "playing to win", etc, but character loyalty isn't bad. Just "not competitive", if we are interpreting competitive as striving to win all the time.

 

[Djmarcus44]

He was just talking about a neutral spacing game. Thats obviously the most similar fair (as its new for characters to shoot stuff for normals).

Gunner Fair trades all the power for the oppression of a transcendent, retreating shot that is also pretty safe close up.

Villager fair/bair is more versatile, with usable autocancels for neutral and combos and much better endlag in the air.

Ofcourse if Gunner fair actually set up for anything, it would be kind of broken. Its pretty much a toon link bomb.

Actually, Mii Gunner's fair combos into many of Gunner's moves at low percents, including charge blast (the full list of fair combos is in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Fair to charge blast is also a killing mixup at high percents that is pretty tough to avoid. Also, Gunner's fair is more versatile because it is used for mobility (it gives the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag), combos, edgeguarding (it kills pretty early when it is shot offstage at an opponent near the blastzone), recovery from above (reflector in the air can be used to change directions in the air to allow gunner to use it more often), and it is super strong in the neutral (the fact that it only has 12 frames of landing lag makes it a very safe move). This is why Mii Gunner's fair is easily a top 5 fair in the game, if not a top 2 fair.

 

[Nobie]

It's less about character loyalty and more about not trying to take the easiest path to victory at all times because you potentially don't learn as much in the process.

Mango on stream once talked about how the worst mindset is to try and be competitive at all times, even when practicing. Practice is for trying new things, crazy things, and while ultimately winning is your goal, experimentation and not being locked into the need for victory at all times is more beneficial. To some extent, that's how I see the pursuit of easy wins (pre-patch Diddy, for example). Like beating your practice partner, that might be satisfying in the short term but potentially harms you competitively in the long run. Not saying people can't or shouldn't switch characters, or that one should be satisfied regardless of whether or not they win, but that "playing to win" sometimes involves more than just striving for the victory screen at every opportunity.

 

[LightLV]

No. Ally is a top-tier threat.

Mario is a top tier threat.

All this talk about how "it's not the character that's amazing, it's the player!"

That's how a competitive game SHOULD be.

That's not saying tiers are meaningless, or that some characters aren't better than others, but that we focus too much on who's top tier vs. high tier or whatever. If a character gives a player the potential to win, that's really the important thing.

I think the Western fighting game scene is a little too focused on winning sometimes. That sounds ridiculous given the goal of competition, but in Japan you can see how it's just as important to perfect yourself and your character as it is to get that W. Obviously people there will also drop characters and such, but you see through their play how much they seek mastery.

But....how far are you willing to drag this opinion?

Ranking characters by their potential to win is exactly what a tier list's purpose is. People aren't not playing zelda because they're too lazy to learn her, or dont like the character...they aren't playing her because she is not going to win tournaments. The Japanese are no different, the Koreans are no different. The ones who play to win are the ones you know about.

On occasion you'll get that one guy who comes out of nowhere and makes a previously average character seem top-tier. But that is NEVER going to happen if the character doesn't possess the tools to make that happen. Everyone loves the low-tier warrior who pushes their loyal character up the rankings, but it's the players who use the best characters who consistently win.

People can delude themselves into saying low-tier makes them more rounded players...but lets be real. Mid-Low tiers are only harder to play because they lack the options of the high-tiers...but in High tier vs. High Tier its a completely different situation. If we're talking in a competitive context, if you know your character is unviable and you continue slugging along with it, you have only yourself to blame, and you don't deserve any more praise then the person who's actually trying to win.

 

[Nobie]

Mario is a top tier threat.




But....how far are you willing to drag this opinion?

Ranking characters by their potential to win is exactly what a tier list's purpose is. People aren't not playing zelda because they're too lazy to learn her, or dont like the character...they aren't playing her because she is not going to win tournaments. The Japanese are no different, the Koreans are no different. The ones who play to win are the ones you know about.

On occasion you'll get that one guy who comes out of nowhere and makes a previously average character seem top-tier. But that is NEVER going to happen if the character doesn't possess the tools to make that happen. Everyone loves the low-tier warrior who pushes their loyal character up the rankings, but it's the players who use the best characters who consistently win.

People can delude themselves into saying low-tier makes them more rounded players...but lets be real. Mid-Low tiers are only harder to play because they lack the options of the high-tiers...but in High tier vs. High Tier its a completely different situation.

Oh, I don't mean to say that there are no such things as tiers or that playing low tiers makes you better. After all, one of the topics of conversation was Mario who most people consider solid high tier. Like you said, there's a reason there are few if any Zelda mains.

The reason I brought up Villager was because he is a character with all of this potential that ex-Villagers decided to not try and explore or tap into because the loss of trip sapling and ledge stalling gave them no reason to play the character. Why were so many unable to see Villager's potential when Ranai was able to? There's a difference in thought process, in perspective, that I wouldn't say is cultural (Japanese players don't inherently think of the game differently), but is something that developed in their scenes over the years:

EDIT WHOOPS WRONG VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb-7TkIcZ7Y

In the end, it might be necessary to pick up secondaries if you really want to win, or to acknowledge the limits of characters, though this incidentally is what makes patches fascinating. Where would DK have been post-DIng Dong patch if there weren't enough players like DKWill labbing out DK and using him in tournament. How much does a player like Chaos or King Kong benefit from Bowser's new up throw because they put time into learning the nuances of their characters so when this new puzzle piece came in they were able to holistically integrate it? Why is it that those who don't have experience with Mewtwo or forsook practicing with him (not even talking about using him in tournament) don't quite understand the major impact Mewtwo's buffs have had on him, unlike Blue, Abadango, or Mew^2?

Whether a character has many options or few options, it's still a problem when players don't even bother to find out what all those options are in the first place.

 

[Y2Kay]

Playing to learn, not to win is probably the best advice I ever got in regards to smash.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

If you're good, you can do good with any character. Vexx the Zelda, MikeKirby the Kirby, GanontheBeast, Vurnibus (?), and RayKalm for Ganon are all good examples. Obviously being loyal to a top tier will yield better results, but being bottom tier doesn't mean it's impossible to win.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Vermanubis.

Smooth Criminal

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Will the shulk main who was at that tourney go to genesis 3?

 

[C0rvus]

Why does the majority of America think that Duck Hunt is bad, but Japan thinks he's pretty good? Is there someone over there pushing his meta and winning enough for people to think that?

I know the meta is different there. But people wouldn't come to that conclusion without results regardless of how the meta is.

Brood is over there putting up very respectable results. Here we have no Duck Hunt in top level play, and our resident specialists are realistic folks.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does anyone know where I can find the bracket for the tourney last night?

 

[Y2Kay]

Also, where will the replays be posted?

 

[LRodC]

Brood is over there putting up very respectable results. Here we have no Duck Hunt in top level play, and our resident specialists are realistic folks.

If there's a guy there getting good results, shouldn't that affect our outlook on the character? I'm not saying that he's without his flaws, but if someone is getting good results with a character, that probably disqualifies them from being "bottom 5 trash" whether it's in Japan or NA. Same goes for Japan and their opinions of Falco/Ike. American or Japanese, a player is taking these characters and winning.

 

[Wintropy]

Okay, now that I've had time to gather my thoughts, I'm gonna try this again.

I'm going to pull out the oldest trick in the philosopher's handbook and say, "Define competitive." If you define "competitive" as "playing to win every time", then yeah, sticking to one character for the sake of playing that one character isn't a good competitive mindset. It's a simple fact of life that, unless you're playing a character that's nigh-unbeatable or you have infallible skill as a player, you're going to get beaten sometimes. Every character in this game, with the possible exception of Sheik, has losing matchups - and even Sheik players can drop games to noticeably weaker characters if the player is good. If you want to win, and if your goal is to strive towards getting to the victory screen every time you play, then being able to change characters and counterpick your opponent is important. Even ZeRo knows when it's time to go Diddy.

That said, I think a competitive mindset considers more than just winning every time. I think Shaya said it before, that playing for the sake of learning is a much healthier and more productive mentality than playing for the sake of winning. It's especially true for non-high-level play, but I think it's good to remember even at the very top. Character loyalty will only get you so far if you're dedicated to only playing that character and nobody else, but I think there's something to be said for sticking to your guns and striving to discover everything there is to know about that character. You won't win every time, but you may well do wonders for that character and its meta. Maybe playing to do your best with what you've got is its own competitive mindset.

Hey, sometimes people don't even play to win. Sometimes they play to win with their favourite characters.

 

[C0rvus]

If there's a guy there getting good results, shouldn't that affect our outlook on the character? I'm not saying that he's without his flaws, but if someone is getting good results with a character, that probably disqualifies them from being "bottom 5 trash" whether it's in Japan or NA. Same goes for Japan and their opinions of Falco/Ike. American or Japanese, a player is taking these characters and winning.

I mean, he's an inherently flawed character. Maybe bottom tier, definitely not the worst character. But people can put up results with any character. You can still win with a bad character. Doesn't make them better. So the notion of "how could anyone think he's bad even when someone's putting in work?" is a bit off.

SOMEONE has to be the worst, you know? If Duck Hunt is one of the worst, that may speak to the quality of the roster as a whole.

 

[BlueX]

My first time posting here and i want to share my thoughts on this...

You can be good with any character and there examples of this. Ally is one of the best Mario players in the world, Nairo is one of the most noticeable Dark Pit players. You can be good with any character in the game as long as you are willing to play that character and know that if you are playing a low/mid tier character, you may not win tournaments but you still may be able to win games if you know what you are doing.

and i do agree with Y2Kay advice... play to learn and not to win... you can learn so much about the character you play and you could even discover new things like what was said before. Players must be willing to put in a lot of time and effort if they really want to discover new things about their main just like what was said before again. I really do think that players who main low/mid tiers characters need to put in effort to play their main good and work to find new things, new strategies , tech , etc and not use them in their least power or potential. There is so much you can do.

Still, It is OK and good to main a top tier if you are going to play to win like me.

 

[Jams.]

If Cloud players are beating Sheik and Villager players, we might need to examine if his recovery is actually much of a weakness.
I think I saw more Ryu getting gimped than Cloud.

Komorikiri is really good at timing his airdodges offstage and being in position to snap the ledge right after his airdodge ends, avoiding the use of upb altogether. From his matches, it seems that nobody has found a reliable way to deal with this strategy.

Will the shulk main who was at that tourney go to genesis 3?

If you're talking about Soronie, the Shulk player who beat FILIP in winners, she is attending Genesis and she's in pool D46 with JTails, Lycan, Phenom, and Nalga.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Even ZeRo knows when it's time to go Diddy.

Except that's not one hundred percent true considering he does it mainly when he's faced with the ditto/doesn't feel like bringing out Sheik. He's not CPing in those cases.

Other than that, yeah, play whoever the hell you want. I don't disagree with that. Just be prepared for whatever the consequences are.

Smooth Criminal

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Komorikiri is really good at timing his airdodges offstage and being in position to snap the ledge right after his airdodge ends, avoiding the use of upb altogether. From his matches, it seems that nobody has found a reliable way to deal with this strategy.



If you're talking about Soronie, the Shulk player who beat FILIP in winners, she is attending Genesis and she's in pool D46 with JTails, Lycan, Phenom, and Nalga.

Thanks for the reply. I hope she fares well against Jtails

 

[Y2Kay]

Thanks for the reply. I hope she fares well against Jtails

Phenom is an excellent fox main too. She'll have her work cut out for her.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Komorikiri is really good at timing his airdodges offstage and being in position to snap the ledge right after his airdodge ends, avoiding the use of upb altogether. From his matches, it seems that nobody has found a reliable way to deal with this strategy..

The power of upwards DI and Cloud's air speed being decent is very, very impressive. Komorikiri is just such a good player, Cloud seems to work well with him.

I imagine if people start dealing with this strat, Komori will start mixup it up with Up+B and recreate the problems for his enemies all over again.

Did I say DI up yet? DI up, it does wonders.

 

[PK Gaming]

He quit on the dream of doing what he loved in favor of doing something he knew would work (ie maining Sheik/ZSS).

What's sadder than that?

Not having a career for one. It isn't glamorous, but your friend found something that worked for him. He knew pursuing his (incredibly risky) passion wouldn't worked out, and he made the right call; that's the thing about growing up, you need to learn to make smart compromises or else you end up in a situation where your degree is useless.