Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Ffamran]

I like how false has somewhat picked up Falco and had an amazing set against a Marth in a tourney I can't remember. Are there any high tiers that he has positive matchup a with? I know that he gets decimated by the top 3 girls though.

I don't think I've ever seen or heard False play Falco. Nairo has, however, beaten Mr. E's Sheik and Marth in grand finals before Cloud was released: http://challonge.com/s4e30. That being said, it's Nairo; Nairo could, like ZeRo, pick any random character and play competently. In that tournament, Nairo used Robin and ZSS? while Falco only made an appearance in grand finals. Why did he use Falco? I have no freaking idea. Video for reference: http://youtu.be/mOT774xmIqw.

First off, Mr. E needs to get his **** together. He lost to Keitaro's Falco because he SD'd several times in winners and grand finals. Also, he screwed up punishes... You're a well-known Marth player; your spacing should be immaculate. Both are good players, but in my opinion, Keitaro should have never won against Mr. E. Against Nairo... Why would you pull out Marth? You're fighting against the #2 of Smash 4. Marth wins the MU against Falco... but you're up against the 2nd best player as far as results show. This isn't an honor duel and this shouldn't be a time to prove to yourself that you can win against Falco with Marth; this should have been the time that showed you can win against Nairo. Nothing more; nothing less. A little rant there, but still, man...

Positive MUs? As in winning? Can't think of any... He does have barely even and not horrible MUs against Captain Falcon, Diddy, Fox, Sheik, pre-1.1.1 Sonic, and Villager. Pre-1.1.1 Sonic because shields didn't take a lot of shield stun, so he could quickly out of shield punish Spin Dash. Now? Probably not. Sheik's probably the best one since he loses, but it's in a sense where a top Sheik could make him go 30:70 at best while a okay Sheik would make him go 40:60 at worst. Thing about Falco is he likes fighting up close and most top and high tiers also fight up close and don't have notable disjoints. It's why I always thought Falco did well against pre-patch Diddy. Yes, wacky D-throw and Uair Diddy wasn't a horrible MU for him at all and current Diddy is still a decent MU.

Characters that crap on Falco? Bowser, probably Cloud, DK, Greninja, Luigi, probably Meta Knight, customs Palutena, but we don't speak about her anymore, however, default Palutena still does well against him, the Pits, Robin, Rosalina, Ryu, Shulk, Toon Link, Wario, and ZSS. Notice how only Luigi, Ryu, Wario, and ZSS don't have notable disjoints, but the rest do or have something like I-frames like Bowser and DK. They also outdo something Falco does: fight up close or kill early which for Falco comes from edgeguarding and raw power while the rest have edgeguarding, setups, and raw power like Bowser, DK, Robin, and ZSS. They also do something he should be able to combat well: zoning. For example, Toon Link is a monster zoner and Falco should be able to combat that... He can't. Reflector only does so much and Blaster takes way too long to recover. Combined with being slower than all these characters in some way except for Robin where he beats her in ground speed, Falco's kind of screwed and needing to be up close against a brat with a sword and an arsenal of projectiles isn't ideal. Hell, some of these characters can do nothing to zone like Wario who will happily wait and outrun Falco forcing him to commit and taste Wario's A-bomb. In other cases, really stupid design bites Falco like his jab and shared physics with Fox making him a punching bag that can't run against Luigi and Ryu. Falco's jab is a hit confirm for Luigi and Ryu to take him to or kill him at 70%.

 

[DblCrest]

So many Kirby's play way too aggressively, IMO. Like, playing a patient Kirby (especially with the runspeed buff) shows exactly how good the character can be. That's part of why MikeKirby is so good - consistent patience.

He has tools to win pretty much any matchup if you play it right, even if he's disadvantaged in many.

I'm one of those players lol. Was part of why I had trouble playing Greninja initially. Might have been me trying to go against the whole 'Dis game is too campy' BS

But anyway the run speed buff Kirby got I found is barely noticeable. Does it really help? I think I need to see more of these buffs in action to really see if Kirby is in a better spot than he was before. Still I could just be pessimistic I mean there is a limit to how far one can 'learn the match up'. Kirby still feels pretty mediocre to me as of now ...but I'll still use him. Not much else to really do then that. XD

 

[David Viran]

And it's even less of a long shot to say the he continues to play her today because he knows she's a character who can win tournaments for him.

Really, if ZSS wasn't one of the best characters in the game, he wouldn't be taking her to tournaments, that's for damn sure.

Look, I'm just saying that a character being one of the best isn't the only reason to take them to a tournament even at a high level. By that logic every top player would do better if they just played sheik but I don't think that's true. The way they play the game might just suit other characters better.

Nairo is known for being a player who takes risks, makes the good reads, and gets the high reward. So he would play a character who fits that strength and pick a characters with amazing punishes (zss). There's a reason sheik is decently difficult to play because she has to win neutral consistently and really doesn't get that same reward for making reads.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I don't see what about this game makes it apparent. I don't know what people consider to be "mid tier" in this game, but I don't ever expect to see, say, a Falco, Game and Watch or Greninja face off against a decent plumber or ZSS in a high level match and win.



But this is just a funny statement. A decent Ganondorf could easily decimate a decent space animal. The skill level at which crippling tier flaws become apparent are much higher in Melee than in Smash 4. Your typical mid-tier in Melee simply has more options at their disposal than the same position on the tier list in Smash 4.



I don't understand how you could possibly rate character balance by anything other than what % of its roster is viable...so how can you just randomly decide to invalidate that data?

If we want to be cheeky about it, looking at Smash 4's earliest version, Diddy Kong was released at Metaknight-tier levels of stupidity. And after multiple balanace patches, not only is he still top-tier, but the 2 characters directly under him are still dominating tournament charts and the 2 characters at the very bottom of the list are EXACTLY where they have been since release.

Melee has gotten zero balance patches (barring a few on-disc changes between versions, which i guess you could call balance changes) and its tier list has shifted pretty dramatically over the years, due to player merit alone. Does anyone expect that to happen to Smash 4? I highly, highly doubt it at this point.

So for Smash 4 to even be comparable to Melee at this point is a bit questionable. This game is not even half as balanced as people here like to pretend it is.

Hell, if you simply ban Metaknight, Brawl is already a more balanced game than Smash 4.

Um, amsa beating Ally at APEX?

A decent ganondorf easily decimating a decent space animal? You're exaggerating. It can happen but they can't easily decimate one. It's the same for Smash 4 *at worst*; for all of the mid level and even much of the higher levels, the balance of characters isn't that significant. It's only when you get to the higher areas of high level play that flaws become abused more, but most characters still have developed so little compared to characters like Sheik and Diddy.

I don't play Melee but I can easily beat mid level melee players who aren't playing the top 6 characters (i can beat those playing top 6 characters too) with Marth. And most of what I do is just spam fsmash because it's so friggin good. Flaws are very apparent starting from Falcon, and very large when looking at characters like Dr. Mario or Luigi, and veeery large when looking at Mario or Ganon.

Melee's balance is way worse than Smash 4. The only way you could possibly say Melee's balance is about as good as Smash 4 is if you're using the "Top 8 character usage at nationals is pretty good" but that argument only works if you're looking at the % of the roster that's viable.

Most people can easily list a top 15-20 who are all very competent characters, equivalent to being at falcon's level in melee at worst. It's a testament how people so universally feel Smash 4's balance is good when they say things like "he is a top 20 character". The balance must be pretty good if the common player feels that more than 1/3 of the cast is a top character, or high tier.

The top 10-15 are mostly agreed upon at this point, with characters like Falcon or Yoshi or Pit being at the bottom of it. The 11th-20th are very debateable because nearly the rest of the cast is in competition for it, bar ~5 characters like Zelda, Samus, etc. who I think I can safely say people feel are mid tierr at the best.

And there is still more patches coming.

 

[wpwood]

Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.

At least some of them said it without confidence and knew they were probably wrong, but those other guys

 

[C0rvus]

I play Samus in Melee. Can confirm that Marth has to put forth very little effort to beat Samus. All the difficulty is on her end. If I DI wrong I can die at 40. I have a hard time enjoying Melee.

My point is I guess that balance seems closer on paper than in game. And that Melee is why I cut.

 

[Phan7om]

So many Kirby's play way too aggressively, IMO. Like, playing a patient Kirby (especially with the runspeed buff) shows exactly how good the character can be. That's part of why MikeKirby is so good - consistent patience.

I understand and agree with your point, but aggressive and patient arent mutually exclusive. Many top players are good because they have perfectly applied a both patient and aggressive style to their play. Many people mistake playing aggressive as "going in" or "constantly approaching with aerials"; which is bad for most, if not every, character... some worse than others.

But anyway the run speed buff Kirby got I found is barely noticeable. Does it really help?

It really doesnt change much tbh, since it only helps with really long distances. It was recognized as a buff but Im sure nothing would have been different if there wasnt a buff to his speed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is honestly nothing that will convince me Ryu loses to Sonic.

Nothing. And yes its because I beat one of the strongest Sonics in the US and NJ's best Sonic won't even go Sonic vs me. He will go Olimar or Mewtwo.

I call even match-up.

come at me bros.

 

[S_B]

I would sure hope people don't misinterpret the data

It just means that Nairo has attended more Nats than ZeRo did.

Nairo has also beaten ZeRo at one of those nationals, remember.

 

[C0rvus]

I can see Sonic not wanting to play into Ryu. The risk-reward as always is very skewed in Ryu's favor.

Is this Blue we're talking about, @EmblemLord? Cuz that guy never wants to play Sonic lmao. He played Pac Man against me for ****s sake.

 

[Mili]

There is honestly nothing that will convince me Ryu loses to Sonic.

Nothing. And yes its because I beat one of the strongest Sonics in the US and NJ's best Sonic won't even go Sonic vs me. He will go Olimar or Mewtwo.

I call even match-up.

come at me bros.

If you'd like to expand on exactly why it's even between the two, I'd love to hear it. I don't have much first-hand experience against Sonic but people have ALWAYS said it's a ****ty matchup for us.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I can see Sonic not wanting to play into Ryu. The risk-reward as always is very skewed in Ryu's favor.

Is this Blue we're talking about, @EmblemLord? Cuz that guy never wants to play Sonic lmao. He played Pac Man against me for ****s sake.

I was talking with Blue on the Mewtwo boards, and he said he is now playing more Mewtwo then Sonic.

 

[DblCrest]

So it's like dealing with a blue Blanka and rolling assaults all over the place?
Ryu has a projectile and a counter( sorta) for starters so what makes things so difficult for him out of curiosity.
Is it just the trades?

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you'd like to expand on exactly why it's even between the two, I'd love to hear it. I don't have much first-hand experience against Sonic but people have ALWAYS said it's a ****ty matchup for us.

Sonic can run circles around Ryu, but he can do that vs anyone. If Sonic tries to legit fight Ryu he gets handled. He HAS to run and camp. And even then Ryu still has the tools. Risk vs reward basically always favors Ryu. Yeah, Sonic can gimp Ryu. Ryu can spike the **** out of Sonic tho since his up b has no hitbox and he is not hard to edgeguard or challenge during his recovery really unless he throws out a random homing attack which Ryu can still beat head on. Hit for hit Ryu wins the battle of attrition and has way crazier hitboxes. He also punishes mistakes harder and will be killing earlier.

Hadoukens can take spindashes and rapid dtilts will clash with them forcing Sonic back into neutral for a moment which favors Ryu.

Unless Sonic gets an edgeguard or a lucky uair kill in the air, Ryu is going to live till 130ish on average. Sonic is going to be dying around 80.

When I see their tools I can see why a Ryu could consider the match frustrating, but once you hunker down and develop a REAL ground game and stop jumping around like a moron, the dynamics of this match (all of Ryu's matches really) completely change.

 

[TurboLink]

Sonic's spin dash can actually go under Ryu's projectile under the right circumstances.

It happens often when I play against hypersonicJD

 

[|RK|]

I understand and agree with your point, but aggressive and patient arent mutually exclusive. Many top players are good because they have perfectly applied a both patient and aggressive style to their play. Many people mistake playing aggressive as "going in" or "constantly approaching with aerials"; which is bad for most, if not every, character... some worse than others.

It really doesnt change much tbh, since it only helps with really long distances. It was recognized as a buff but Im sure nothing would have been different if there wasnt a buff to his speed.

True - I didn't mean it that way either. You need to be able to pressure your opponent effectively. What I meant by "aggressive" is "running/rolling in all the time recklessly."

Also, the runspeed buffs help with some follow-ups and punishes Kirby couldn't get beforehand. At least, in my experience.

 

[Nobie]

Taking this from a Reddit thread but the Crew Battles at Genesis are looking to be STACKED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTyz1mQLNIA

Just about every team has killers but Japan in particular looks absurd to me:

Ranai
Abadango
Komorikiri
9B
Rain

Aaaaaa

 

[R3D3MON]

Taking this from a Reddit thread but the Crew Battles at Genesis are looking to be STACKED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTyz1mQLNIA

Just about every team has killers but Japan in particular looks absurd to me:

Ranai
Abadango
Komorikiri
9B
Rain

Aaaaaa

Crew battles will be so hype :D. Also I am really excited to see some edgeguarding shenanigans that Ranai will do at Genesis 3, HYPE!!!

 

[C0rvus]

I was talking with Blue on the Mewtwo boards, and he said he is now playing more Mewtwo then Sonic.

So I've seen, and I'm glad to see it. His Mewtwo is very good and I feel that Mewtwo is a very solid character, so it's good to have a player like Blue representing him.

Edit: Tristate's squad is stacked, but Japan is OD holy smokes. Gonna be a good time.

 

[Y2Kay]

If reflexwonder is really serious about picking up mewtwo we might be in business.

 

[Mili]

Sonic can run circles around Ryu, but he can do that vs anyone. If Sonic tries to legit fight Ryu he gets handled. He HAS to run and camp. And even then Ryu still has the tools. Risk vs reward basically always favors Ryu. Yeah, Sonic can gimp Ryu. Ryu can spike the **** out of Sonic tho since his up b has no hitbox and he is not hard to edgeguard or challenge during his recovery really unless he throws out a random homing attack which Ryu can still beat head on. Hit for hit Ryu wins the battle of attrition and has way crazier hitboxes. He also punishes mistakes harder and will be killing earlier.

Hadoukens can take spindashes and rapid dtilts will clash with them forcing Sonic back into neutral for a moment which favors Ryu.

Unless Sonic gets an edgeguard or a lucky uair kill in the air, Ryu is going to live till 130ish on average. Sonic is going to be dying around 80.

When I see their tools I can see why a Ryu could consider the match frustrating, but once you hunker down and develop a REAL ground game and stop jumping around like a moron, the dynamics of this match (all of Ryu's matches really) completely change.

Those are all fair reasons as to why it's even or possibly in Ryu's favour. When you say "hunker down and develop a REAL ground game", what do you mean? What kind of neutral should Ryu be playing in order to win. Firstly, do you have any gameplay footage that you could link as to give us a better idea and secondly, would an improved ground game push Ryu even higher on the tier list?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sonic literally doesn't give a **** about Ryu's neutral. You throw a hadouken? Let me Spin shot over it, or jump over it and then Spin dash. You want to do Down Tilt pokes? Sure, let me Spin Charge and go past your useless feet. Sonic is also being able to challenge Ryu's Shoryunken off-stage with a well placed spring, bair or fair, focus attack doesn't matter either because of Sonic's multi hitting attacks (dash attack, spin dash, spin charge, fair, up air). And we have better throw rewards.

Ryu can kill you at 90% with a good shoryunken and that is nightmare fuel for any character. But why does that matter when I can run circles around you, defeat you at your own game (front confrontation, because Sonic also has some good tilts to challenge Ryu's attacks). I respect Emblem Lord and all, but sometimes he makes some really bold understatements with almost no back-up or when he does explain them, it's not satisfying enough.

As I said, don't want to sound like a douche, and I love Ryu gameplay. But every single Ryu I have faced goes down with my Sonic. It's not really terrible though. Probably -1 for Ryu.

 

[ARGHETH]

I respect Emblem Lord and all, but sometimes he makes some really bold understatements with almost no back-up or when he does explain them, it's not satisfying enough.

No backup? He's literally said that he faced good Sonics and won. What Ryus have you faced?

EDIT: below-

 

[hypersonicJD]

Well... That's a good point... For glory Ryu's and Turbo Link's Ryu...

 

[Yonder]

If reflexwonder is really serious about picking up mewtwo we might be in business.

Less he suffers from Shulk Syndrome; a plethora of good players promise to play him and unlock his hidden potential, only to not bother(Zer0) or crash and burn trying (Ally)

If only we could get Super mega Guru to use unlock potential on these characters already (M2, Shulk)

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm one of those players lol. Was part of why I had trouble playing Greninja initially. Might have been me trying to go against the whole 'Dis game is too campy' BS

If you ever wanted to play greninja seriously, I hope you like that "washink!" sound water shurikens make.

You'll be hearing it a lot.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.

I'm officially going to refer to Jump Monado as Wind Monado from now on, not even kidding.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Those are all fair reasons as to why it's even or possibly in Ryu's favour. When you say "hunker down and develop a REAL ground game", what do you mean? What kind of neutral should Ryu be playing in order to win. Firstly, do you have any gameplay footage that you could link as to give us a better idea and secondly, would an improved ground game push Ryu even higher on the tier list?

Solid reactive counter play and counter poking. Not fishing with full jump nairs and fairs UGH. Sonic spin dashes at you, you dash back pivot grab, hold jab or mash on dtilt. Sonic tries to play a ground game, you be ready with a d-smash or a light f-tilt.

It takes extremely tight reactions to do this stuff. I played competitive Street Fighter for years, so I def have an edge here, but it shows what IS possible.

I have shoryued sonic players out of spin dashes on reaction. It CAN be done. Its just really hard and really ballsy.

Another tip for fighting Sonic. Walk up to and keep the gap in space close. Do not give him room. Make him feel suffocated. Make him feel Ryu's presence. Most Sonics will shield. Thats when you wreak havoc. Giving Sonic room is the number one reason players lose to him. Get in the hedgehogs face.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Giving Sonic room is the number one reason players lose to him. Get in the hedgehogs face.

This is practically the definition of "easier said than done."

 

[Antonykun]

phew finally done making my own archetype cross Venn Diagram.
its almost two here so imma head to bed and hopefully answer some questions tommorow hopefully you can see some recurring trends in design within archetypes
(btw swordfighter is intentionally in Swordfighter and Swordfighter/Gunner chakram does that to a guy )

 

[Charoite]

The argument of "if we ban X character in A game" or "if we only consider the Y number of character in B game" they have better balance that C game, is stupid and sloppy, because what is stopping C game of doing the same? Example: we can ban ZZS and Sheik, and the low tiers of smash4 and say the game now is more balanced that maylay and browl, hell we can even use equipment and customs to buff the low tiers and nerf the top tiers if we want, using arbitrary rules to support an argument is bad and doesn't help your thoughts, sorry if i sound a bit rude.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

phew finally done making my own archetype cross Venn Diagram.
its almost two here so imma head to bed and hopefully answer some questions tommorow hopefully you can see some recurring trends in design within archetypes
(btw swordfighter is intentionally in Swordfighter and Swordfighter/Gunner chakram does that to a guy )

View attachment 90876

Methinks you have Roy and Ike switched.

Or at least Ike should be in the same spot as Roy then as Ike relies on grabs heavily. Assuming the Swordfighter/Brawler section means "Plays both a spacing game and a CQC game, frequently but not always with grabs playing a large role" MK, ZSS, and arguably Roy fit that description, not so sure about the other two...

Zelda also probably goes in the Gunner/Swordfighter area I would image. She's just... horrible at both aspects but that's how she's set up.

Curious to the reasoning as to Lucas in the middle but not Lucario/Greninja. I could see them falling in that section possibly.

 

[Mario766]

There is honestly nothing that will convince me Ryu loses to Sonic.

Nothing. And yes its because I beat one of the strongest Sonics in the US and NJ's best Sonic won't even go Sonic vs me. He will go Olimar or Mewtwo.

I call even match-up.

come at me bros.

Komorikiri vs 9B made the MU look really simple for Sonic, but Komorikiri's Sonic looks amazing every time I see it, I only saw them play during smashfests too, so things might change in tournament.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

9B still isn't very consistent with Ryu.

If he were ...

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I don't think I've ever seen or heard False play Falco. Nairo has, however, beaten Mr. E's Sheik and Marth in grand finals before Cloud was released: http://challonge.com/s4e30. That being said, it's Nairo; Nairo could, like ZeRo, pick any random character and play competently. In that tournament, Nairo used Robin and ZSS? while Falco only made an appearance in grand finals. Why did he use Falco? I have no freaking idea. Video for reference: http://youtu.be/mOT774xmIqw.

First off, Mr. E needs to get his **** together. He lost to Keitaro's Falco because he SD'd several times in winners and grand finals. Also, he screwed up punishes... You're a well-known Marth player; your spacing should be immaculate. Both are good players, but in my opinion, Keitaro should have never won against Mr. E. Against Nairo... Why would you pull out Marth? You're fighting against the #2 of Smash 4. Marth wins the MU against Falco... but you're up against the 2nd best player as far as results show. This isn't an honor duel and this shouldn't be a time to prove to yourself that you can win against Falco with Marth; this should have been the time that showed you can win against Nairo. Nothing more; nothing less. A little rant there, but still, man...

Positive MUs? As in winning? Can't think of any... He does have barely even and not horrible MUs against Captain Falcon, Diddy, Fox, Sheik, pre-1.1.1 Sonic, and Villager. Pre-1.1.1 Sonic because shields didn't take a lot of shield stun, so he could quickly out of shield punish Spin Dash. Now? Probably not. Sheik's probably the best one since he loses, but it's in a sense where a top Sheik could make him go 30:70 at best while a okay Sheik would make him go 40:60 at worst. Thing about Falco is he likes fighting up close and most top and high tiers also fight up close and don't have notable disjoints. It's why I always thought Falco did well against pre-patch Diddy. Yes, wacky D-throw and Uair Diddy wasn't a horrible MU for him at all and current Diddy is still a decent MU.

Characters that crap on Falco? Bowser, probably Cloud, DK, Greninja, Luigi, probably Meta Knight, customs Palutena, but we don't speak about her anymore, however, default Palutena still does well against him, the Pits, Robin, Rosalina, Ryu, Shulk, Toon Link, Wario, and ZSS. Notice how only Luigi, Ryu, Wario, and ZSS don't have notable disjoints, but the rest do or have something like I-frames like Bowser and DK. They also outdo something Falco does: fight up close or kill early which for Falco comes from edgeguarding and raw power while the rest have edgeguarding, setups, and raw power like Bowser, DK, Robin, and ZSS. They also do something he should be able to combat well: zoning. For example, Toon Link is a monster zoner and Falco should be able to combat that... He can't. Reflector only does so much and Blaster takes way too long to recover. Combined with being slower than all these characters in some way except for Robin where he beats her in ground speed, Falco's kind of screwed and needing to be up close against a brat with a sword and an arsenal of projectiles isn't ideal. Hell, some of these characters can do nothing to zone like Wario who will happily wait and outrun Falco forcing him to commit and taste Wario's A-bomb. In other cases, really stupid design bites Falco like his jab and shared physics with Fox making him a punching bag that can't run against Luigi and Ryu. Falco's jab is a hit confirm for Luigi and Ryu to take him to or kill him at 70%.

Well I dun goofed. I meant keitaro. Didn't help that Falcos lasers are literally unusable now compared to melee.

 

[outfoxd]

phew finally done making my own archetype cross Venn Diagram.
its almost two here so imma head to bed and hopefully answer some questions tommorow hopefully you can see some recurring trends in design within archetypes
(btw swordfighter is intentionally in Swordfighter and Swordfighter/Gunner chakram does that to a guy )

View attachment 90876

I would almost put DH as a swordfighter/gunner because his more used normals are ranged, poking, sweetspotted and disjointed swordy moves to outspace the barefisted cast. I could understand brawler though since the duck is a damn hurtbox.

 

[bc1910]

Methinks you have Roy and Ike switched.

Or at least Ike should be in the same spot as Roy then as Ike relies on grabs heavily. Assuming the Swordfighter/Brawler section means "Plays both a spacing game and a CQC game, frequently but not always with grabs playing a large role" MK, ZSS, and arguably Roy fit that description, not so sure about the other two...

Zelda also probably goes in the Gunner/Swordfighter area I would image. She's just... horrible at both aspects but that's how she's set up.

Curious to the reasoning as to Lucas in the middle but not Lucario/Greninja. I could see them falling in that section possibly.

Agreed that Greninja should be in the middle. Actually don't see Lucas as much of a swordfighter, I think he'd be fine between gunner and brawler.

The diagram as a whole is good though.

 

[Das Koopa]

Taking this from a Reddit thread but the Crew Battles at Genesis are looking to be STACKED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTyz1mQLNIA

Just about every team has killers but Japan in particular looks absurd to me:

Ranai
Abadango
Komorikiri
9B
Rain

Aaaaaa

I feel sorry for anybody going up against Tristate, good lord.

I'm pulling for Texas here but I dunno if they can do it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I feel sorry for anybody going up against Tristate, good lord.

I'm gonna feel sorry for Tristate when they have to face Japan.

 

[meleebrawler]

phew finally done making my own archetype cross Venn Diagram.
its almost two here so imma head to bed and hopefully answer some questions tommorow hopefully you can see some recurring trends in design within archetypes
(btw swordfighter is intentionally in Swordfighter and Swordfighter/Gunner chakram does that to a guy )

View attachment 90876

I'd consider Mewtwo as more of a Swordfighter/Gunner, he's more about spacing out with disjoints, even if he can go in to start combos now. Maybe he'd fit in the middle.

And while it's nice to categorize the fatties so that we know who we're referring to, they're basically all brawlers except for Dedede who's a swordfighter.