Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[ParanoidDrone]

That'd put a lot of MUs, esp against Sheik, at 7-3.

Most places put +2 at just 'advantage' with +3 being 'Huge Advantage' which is when people would think to pull out a secondary.

Putting multiple MUs at 6-4 against you then saying 'This character does the best against us' doesn't seem that bad though.

Honestly I rate the Sheik vs Ike MU to be at 65-35. 7-3 sounds too harsh, which is like MK from Brawl level. The MU isn't THAT bad.

If we had to not use the .5 ratio, Sheik vs Ike would be a 6-4 but a really bad 6-4, going close to 7-3. No other MU for Ike is that bad.

Reminder that "consider a secondary" can be more suited for 8-2 instead, if we're seriously talking about my ranking system. That is also a discussion we can have -- "At what point does a secondary become necessary?"

I still can't quite believe I've sparked this whole thing though.

 

[Das Koopa]

Where Melee's balance seems like an oligarchy, Smash 4's balance is like The United State's democracy. They both seem to be fair. Smash 4 proudly touts how in this metagame, "any character can win a tournament", and the US government proudly touts that "with hard work, any man can succeed!" In practice though, it actually really isn't.

I don't know if I necessarily would call Melee's balance an "oligarchy". 12 characters are viable. it's true that the latter 6 (Pikachu/Samus/Falcon/Icies/Yoshi/Luigi) are unlikely to win a Nat with a God in attendance, some of the game's best players play mid-tiers and 6 characters capable of winning Nats is pretty a-okay for a 14 year old comp game.

I agree on Smash 4, though.

 

[Y2Kay]

Imo Mewtwo vs Fox wasn't that bad prebuffs. It felt really doable to me, even though there's a feelable disadvantage. Would've felt like between +1 / +2 for Fox to me. Now with the buffs I'd like to believe it's only +1, but idk, haven't played the MU since the new patch. Abadango did quite well with Mewtwo against SH, but I wouldn't want to rate a MU just from one game, and we don't know about SHs MU experience etc.
But Mewtwo does feel more legit overall, that's one thing I'd say for sure. It feels like a decent mid tier that can actually win now without having to hugely outplay your opponent. Maybe it could even have nice MUs against some good characters. Rosa wasn't too bad before, and Sheik for example actually feels much more possible now. Fair got so much better it's like a dream.

Fox is faster, combos us hard, doesn't care about shadow ball, and wipes out our stock really early with up air and up smash. Without a doubt a secondary need matchup.

Mewtwo does do well against: for what it's worth

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd say that 'case in point' thing doesn't really work -lots of low tiers weren't played at all while Ganon was repped by people like Vermanubis so ofc he got better results. With high tiers though I'd say results matter more than theory, so the 'results tier list' is probably fairly accurate. There are issues with it though since some players play more than others and get more results because of that etc.

It's "probably fairly accurate?" That's what I was getting at...

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't know if I necessarily would call Melee's balance an "oligarchy". 12 characters are viable. it's true that the latter 6 (Pikachu/Samus/Falcon/Icies/Yoshi/Luigi) are unlikely to win a Nat with a God in attendance, some of the game's best players play mid-tiers and 6 characters capable of winning Nats is pretty a-okay for a 14 year old comp game.

I agree on Smash 4, though.

Melee is an oligarchy because there is a huge gap between the Top tiers and the mid and low tiers. The top tiers dominate to the point where we rarely see anybody besides them. Sounds like an elitist oligarchy if you ask me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd put them all 40:60 and explicitly order them at that point.

I wouldn't.

 

[Yonder]

Fox is faster, combos us hard, doesn't care about shadow ball, and wipes out our stock really early with up air and up smash. Without a doubt a secondary need matchup.

Mewtwo does do well against: for what it's worth

I was doing quite well against a good Lucario player at a tourney yesterday, then he got ms at 60% with a down smash...its a even matchup though mostly, probably 55:45 Lucario in the end.

Speaking of which, Aura Lucario yesterday reminds me of how scary he is, koing characters left and right at 90 ish at near full Aura...killed a Ness I think it was at 40% with an f smash with Aura. Aura still remains a scary trump card and Aura sphere is very quick to launch and charge .

Did I mention in BC, our metagame has a ton of food DDD players? As usual big D got 1st, a DDD and there was another extremely good DDD who made it into top 8 I think.

Our Metagame is weird . Mostly Nesses too, but I got rocked by a Sheik as WFT and tried to counter as Game and Watch...he fares much better against Sheik. Not great, but closer.

 

[S_B]

So it isn't a long shot to say he played her initially because he liked playing her.

And it's even less of a long shot to say the he continues to play her today because he knows she's a character who can win tournaments for him.

Really, if ZSS wasn't one of the best characters in the game, he wouldn't be taking her to tournaments, that's for damn sure.

 

[Mili]

Applying similar logic in an admittedly tangential way, is it not feasible that even if we all agree that there are real and quantifiable 60-40 and 65-35 matchups for a specific character (Fox, in this case), that there could be some third matchup that is clearly worse for Fox than the 60-40 yet better for him than the 65-35? Where do we stop?

With the question on how far do we go, I kind of already answered it in my post. Minute differences in matchups often don't matter because, well, they are so minute they are eliminated by player differences. There are two things we must consider when looking at matchups: a) both player's skill level (is it Nairo vs. somebody in Pools?) and b) how often are these matchups played and are all the advantageous options and disadvantageous options even being used?

We only have so many matches to look at and our personal experience but we can't always say we play the matchup perfectly and use the best strategies at all times. I'm sure we have all found ourselves falling into some sort of habit which lowers the advantage in our matchup, therefore affecting how 'good' the matchup is for our character. For example, I obviously main and he has a few advantageous matchups, including . Now, Fox is a relatively well-played character in Australia and I have the luck of having the best Fox in Australia in my region. When I play him, I try to use all of Ryu's tools to the best of my ability in order to make it an advantageous matchup but, because he is better than me, I still often lose even though it is theoretically a good matchup. Now, me losing to somebody better obviously doesn't invalidate te advantages I have in the matchup but it does remove the minute differences.

So, as I often do answer in long-winded response for no apparent reason, hopefully this answers your question.

 

[Das Koopa]

Melee is an oligarchy because there is a huge gap between the Top tiers and the mid and low tiers. The top tiers dominate to the point where we rarely see anybody besides them. Sounds like an elitist oligarchy if you ask me.

They're always mid-tiers in top 8s in Melee. Nothing "rare" about them, tbh. Melee's only an oligarchy in the sense that you have a set Top 6 players, but that's entirely skilled based: We see Hungrybox beating Foxes (a disadvantageous matchup for Jiggs) frequently.

*I should correct myself, though; They're really only 12 viable characters. Ganondorf kinda sucks even when THE WARRIOR is using him.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I love these type of conversations and debates as they spur some lesser known characters bring their respective character out from the woodwork and contribute.

This type of conversation also convinces me that the meta is truly changing from the lala days where people said that almost any character can win.

Keep it up! I wanna see where it all (eventually) ends! Don't disappoint me.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Imo Mewtwo vs Fox wasn't that bad prebuffs. It felt really doable to me, even though there's a feelable disadvantage. Would've felt like between +1 / +2 for Fox to me. Now with the buffs I'd like to believe it's only +1, but idk, haven't played the MU since the new patch. Abadango did quite well with Mewtwo against SH, but I wouldn't want to rate a MU just from one game, and we don't know about SHs MU experience etc.
But Mewtwo does feel more legit overall, that's one thing I'd say for sure. It feels like a decent mid tier that can actually win now without having to hugely outplay your opponent. Maybe it could even have nice MUs against some good characters. Rosa wasn't too bad before, and Sheik for example actually feels much more possible now. Fair got so much better it's like a dream.

Mewtwo vs. Fox is basically the only MU everyone on the Mewtwo boards agrees upon...

 

[S_B]

This type of conversation also convinces me that the meta is truly changing from the lala days where people said that almost any character can win.

Yeah, the only time people spout nonsense like this any longer is when they're trying to defend their main from the nerfbat.

 

[Rysir]

I was doing quite well against a good Lucario player at a tourney yesterday, then he got ms at 60% with a down smash...its a even matchup though mostly, probably 55:45 Lucario in the end.

Speaking of which, Aura Lucario yesterday reminds me of how scary he is, koing characters left and right at 90 ish at near full Aura...killed a Ness I think it was at 40% with an f smash with Aura. Aura still remains a scary trump card and Aura sphere is very quick to launch and charge .

Did I mention in BC, our metagame has a ton of food DDD players? As usual big D got 1st, a DDD and there was another extremely good DDD who made it into top 8 I think.

Our Metagame is weird . Mostly Nesses too, but I got rocked by a Sheik as WFT and tried to counter as Game and Watch...he fares much better against Sheik. Not great, but closer.

Lucario kills everyone at weight 100 and below at 0% if near the ledge at max aura maybe kills those at a touch higher weight. God help you if you let your shield get broken.

Id put the lucario and mewtwo match up in favor of lucario due to much less reliance on aura and that lucario can riverdance to force palm grab at low and high % as an out of shield punish.

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel like matchup is near even because Mewtwo doesn't care about aurasphere and can clean out lucario's stocks earlier than most. Mewtwo doesn't win but it's one of his more favorable matchups with the high tiers. All of those matchups I mentioned i think are even btw.

 

[LightLV]

I'd just like to point out that "real" fighting games use the simplified x-x, instead of xx-xx, which is desperately trying to put value to numbers which should only be being used as a crude reference to begin with.

Seems to be another case of the smash community just not really grasping the point of something, as usual.

Take the deeper discussion to your respective character boards and actually, you know, discuss the matchup.

Melee is an oligarchy because there is a huge gap between the Top tiers and the mid and low tiers. The top tiers dominate to the point where we rarely see anybody besides them. Sounds like an elitist oligarchy if you ask me.

Melee doesn't seem any more or less balanced than Smash 4 does at this point. Probably even more balanced. It's the exact same trend.

I'd also like to point out that Ganondorf is A-tier in melee. This is a useless fact, and nobody asked, but i just thought people should know.

 

[Y2Kay]

Melee doesn't seem any more or less balanced than Smash 4 does at this point. Probably even more balanced. It's the exact same trend.

I'd also like to point out that Ganondorf is A-tier in melee. This is a useless fact, and nobody asked, but i just thought people should know.

As ties goes on, I think this will be more and more true.

I forgot brawl existed, now that's a oligarchy.

 

[ARISTOS]

Melee doesn't seem any more or less balanced than Smash 4 does at this point. Probably even more balanced. It's the exact same trend.

I'd also like to point out that Ganondorf is A-tier in melee. This is a useless fact, and nobody asked, but i just thought people should know.

I would disagree on Melee being more balanced than Smash 4. This is apparent when comparing the tools of midtiers across games-Midtiers in Smash 4 can often go even with most of the top 10, with a few losing MUs being the reason for them falling out. Melee mid-tiers and below really are not good characters at all.

If you're going off of this: http://smashboards.com/threads/2015-community-tier-list-results.425522/ then is in C.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Melee is no where near as balanced as smash 4 is, you can bring up the % of viable character argument all you want but it simply holds no ground. Even as time goes on, smash 4 is going to get patched and patched until the dev team feels the gaps have been shortened enough.

Back on topic, not a lot of talk about Kirby or Link since the patch, both of whom I think are really underrated now. Hyrule Hero has beaten Denti and CosmicCosmos in the most recent TLOC tournament. I feel Kirby has more grab confirms since his run buff and just in general more kill power. Can any Kirby/Link main care to discuss about what holds for them this version?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Maybe someone could get a strawpoll or something? If we spread it around and get a decent amount of votes, we could see what the majority of players (at least on here) have a general consensus it would be easier to make the norm.

Anyways, this whole talk about "ZSS wins more than Sheik" is fine but don't start making big assumptions saying ZSS is now better than Sheik because of two tournament wins. It just shows they are both the same in terms of viability.

 

[Das Koopa]

Anyways, this whole talk about "ZSS wins more than Sheik" is fine but don't start making big assumptions saying ZSS is now better than Sheik because of two tournament wins. It just shows they are both the same in terms of viability.

I would sure hope people don't misinterpret the data

It just means that Nairo has attended more Nats than ZeRo did.

 

[LightLV]

I would disagree on Melee being more balanced than Smash 4. This is apparent when comparing the tools of midtiers across games-Midtiers in Smash 4 can often go even with most of the top 10, with a few losing MUs being the reason for them falling out. Melee mid-tiers and below really are not good characters at all.

If you're going off of this: http://smashboards.com/threads/2015-community-tier-list-results.425522/ then is in C.

I don't see what about this game makes it apparent. I don't know what people consider to be "mid tier" in this game, but I don't ever expect to see, say, a Falco, Game and Watch or Greninja face off against a decent plumber or ZSS in a high level match and win.

Melee mid-tiers and below really are not good characters at all.

But this is just a funny statement. A decent Ganondorf could easily decimate a decent space animal. The skill level at which crippling tier flaws become apparent are much higher in Melee than in Smash 4. Your typical mid-tier in Melee simply has more options at their disposal than the same position on the tier list in Smash 4.

Melee is no where near as balanced as smash 4 is, you can bring up the % of viable character argument all you want but it simply holds no ground. Even as time goes on, smash 4 is going to get patched and patched until the dev team feels the gaps have been shortened enough.

I don't understand how you could possibly rate character balance by anything other than what % of its roster is viable...so how can you just randomly decide to invalidate that data?

If we want to be cheeky about it, looking at Smash 4's earliest version, Diddy Kong was released at Metaknight-tier levels of stupidity. And after multiple balanace patches, not only is he still top-tier, but the 2 characters directly under him are still dominating tournament charts and the 2 characters at the very bottom of the list are EXACTLY where they have been since release.

Melee has gotten zero balance patches (barring a few on-disc changes between versions, which i guess you could call balance changes) and its tier list has shifted pretty dramatically over the years, due to player merit alone. Does anyone expect that to happen to Smash 4? I highly, highly doubt it at this point.

So for Smash 4 to even be comparable to Melee at this point is a bit questionable. This game is not even half as balanced as people here like to pretend it is.

Hell, if you simply ban Metaknight, Brawl is already a more balanced game than Smash 4.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Melee is no where near as balanced as smash 4 is, you can bring up the % of viable character argument all you want but it simply holds no ground. Even as time goes on, smash 4 is going to get patched and patched until the dev team feels the gaps have been shortened enough.

Back on topic, not a lot of talk about Kirby or Link since the patch, both of whom I think are really underrated now. Hyrule Hero has beaten Denti and CosmicCosmos in the most recent TLOC tournament. I feel Kirby has more grab confirms since his run buff and just in general more kill power. Can any Kirby/Link main care to discuss about what holds for them this version?

Did someone say Kirby?

Kirby's design is skewed (extreme risk good reward) considering characters like ZSS have high risk extreme reward. His main strength is (still) heavily countered by his flaws (bad approach, bad start-up, bad mobility, eh range) but pre-patch his struggle with killing also crippled him into the depths of low tier.

However, with a small run speed buff, a better kill throw, and better kill %s on most of his moves (and new-found kill setups) killing is no longer a big issue. That's pretty huge.

He still struggles against swordies and the characters he struggled against before, but he got a small edge to make the MUs slightly better. Some MUs (like Rosalina) which I thought were trash before now I argue is only -1 because of the patch.

I can't place a tier on him (I guess low-mid/mid idk) but he improved and it is extremely noticeable.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Melee is no where near as balanced as smash 4 is, you can bring up the % of viable character argument all you want but it simply holds no ground. Even as time goes on, smash 4 is going to get patched and patched until the dev team feels the gaps have been shortened enough.

Back on topic, not a lot of talk about Kirby or Link since the patch, both of whom I think are really underrated now. Hyrule Hero has beaten Denti and CosmicCosmos in the most recent TLOC tournament. I feel Kirby has more grab confirms since his run buff and just in general more kill power. Can any Kirby/Link main care to discuss about what holds for them this version?

Link is still garbage.

Kirby was really helped, as he has difficulty killing before but now he can kill way earlier. Some matchups were made even better though (Though Mewtwo and probably Bowser are worse). Rosalina is probably better for us, and Mr. Game & Watch is probably better too due to his low weight. Fox is sopposdly better too

 

[S_B]

So for Smash 4 to even be comparable to Melee at this point is a bit questionable. This game is not even half as balanced as people here like to pretend it is.

Hell, if you simply ban Metaknight, Brawl is already a more balanced game than Smash 4.

I'm hoping that a few more balance patches and then some meta development will bring us to the point where SSB4 is the most balanced of the batch overall.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here are some I know of for mewtwo:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:

All those, except possibly Meta Knight which I have no input on, are 6:4 at worst in their favour.

Fox was 7:3 before due to the jab infinite. Now while he's still a bit too fast to handle easily, he barely survives longer than Mewtwo. Reflector is a strong tool, but it can be baited and punished. Same deal with Falcon, minus the reflector.

Mario is severely outranged by Mewtwo, and now outrun. One wrong fireball toss will get him blasted, and cape isn't infallible for reflecting. He'll certainly bully Mewtwo if he can get close but he doesn't do that as easily as other top tiers.

Sonic can't pull off his patented "run away with the lead" strategy as well against Shadow Ball and Mewtwo's new mobility, and Mewtwo can counter his spinning moves with jab, shadow ball and transcendent dsmash.

Yoshi's eggs can be dealt with Confusion, and his non-disjointed moves can be spaced out. He also has some trouble killing without a mistake.

Zero Suit Samus can certainly pull off her nair starters more easily on tall Mewtwo, but her close boxing game leaves something to be desired, leading her to play a mid-range spacing game that Mewtwo is quite good at himself.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I don't understand how you could possibly rate character balance by anything other than what % of its roster is viable...so how can you just randomly decide to invalidate that data?

If we want to be cheeky about it, looking at Smash 4's earliest version, Diddy Kong was released at Metaknight-tier levels of stupidity. And after multiple balanace patches, not only is he still top-tier, but the 2 characters directly under him are still dominating tournament charts and the 2 characters at the very bottom of the list are EXACTLY where they have been since release.

Melee has gotten zero balance patches (barring a few on-disc changes between versions, which i guess you could call balance changes) and its tier list has shifted pretty dramatically over the years, due to player merit alone. Does anyone expect that to happen to Smash 4? I highly, highly doubt it at this point.

So for Smash 4 to even be comparable to Melee at this point is a bit questionable. This game is not even half as balanced as people here like to pretend it is.

"...

There were X characters who placed in Melee, and Y characters who placed in Smash 4. The roster size of either is completely and utterly irrelevant.

By this logic, if every player in the top 32 played three totally unique characters each, but the game had 1000 characters, its balance would be poop--yet a game with only 1 character has 100% representation and is perfect." - Thinkaman, something something 2015.

Diddy Kong was stupid, but nowhere near MK levels man.
Isn't that what balance patching the strongest characters are supposed to be? To make the character still playable and not complete and utter booty?

The characters on the bottom shifted dramatically since release, even then what tier lists are you on about? There isn't even an official tier list for this game yet.

Of course in Melee, where there is dash dancing/wavedashing/landing..etc. is gonna have more options from every character compared to smash 4. Hell other than Jigglypuff, Falcon and Yoshi who else was "dramatically shifted" in Melee.

The top tiers were pretty obvious from the start even when we played with items on, on Kongo Jungle, and Rainbow Cruise in the absence of the advanced technology we use today for communicating. The reason why it'll barely happen in smash 4 is because of the communication we have today. Even then, there are still balance changes that made completely middling to low characters like Ike and MK (And I believe more recently, Mewtwo) into viable, high tier and amazing characters.

EDIT: A Ganon and a spacie with the same understanding of tech skill = pray for ganon.

 

[Das Koopa]

Hell, if you simply ban Metaknight, Brawl is already a more balanced game than Smash 4.

Most of your post is agreeable, but I really disagree with this. Ice Climber Meta ft. Diddy & Olimar would both be less balanced and the least fun thing in the world to play/watch.

 

[Y2Kay]

I need to get something off my chest.......

If I hear another commentator say greninja is "a poor man's sheik" I'll jump out a window

Since then, I've (jumped out a window and) been wondering who does play the most like greninja? I think, if we had to put the label on it, he's more of a poor man's fox if anything. Even still Greninja has somethings Fox doesn't.

They both like to keep up the pressure with combos, projectiles, and high mobility. They both Fox has better ground mobility,kill moves and combos, but greninja has a better projectile, air mobility, recovery, lives longer, and can escape some combos with SS.

These differences are pretty big in terms of their respective viability, but their playstyles seems related. Your thoughts?

 

[Das Koopa]

That point of advanced communication is important, though - Any post-Melee Smash will have a dramatically different upbringing. It took the playerbase around 8 years to seriously analyze things like frame data in Melee and meta development was stagnant. Even then, by the time we get to 2005-2006, the Tier List isn't amazingly far off in terms of listing viable characters.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Someone asked about Kirby?
Well his main issue with killing is essentially gone(thank goodness) so he no longer needs reads at high % to end stocks.
That along with his, pretty much top tier combo ability is great.
He still has a good edge guarding game and with his Dair to footstool can end stocks quickly.
Not to mention his generally good frame data(he essentially has like the best landing with his ariels? If you understand what I mean by that) with generally low end lag attacks makes them pretty safe if spaced correctly.

Some of his flaws are still notable with(IMO) his biggest flaw being able to do much against some swordies or Rosa or anyone who cn throw ariels in his face quite safely in neutral.
I was watching a 2v2, with Mikekirby ending up 1v1ing a Rosa who was easily making it very difficult to approach With just jab alone and I bet he was frustrating thing to not make 1 mistake, or he was dead, but because of Uthrow buff he managed to win, albeit barely.
What I'm saying is, if Kirby's Final cutter had less startup and endlag, it for sure would be a great tool in neutral, IDC about the projectile either, it was always bad.

Idk what much they can do to make his approach better, besides speed buffs,but getting another is just asking for too much probably...

But overall, all these patches have seriously helped Kirby and I think the Final cutter buff is what he needs next that would be a fantastic improvement overall. Pre-patch, he may have been the lower end of midtier, Now I think he may be completely mid right now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Since then, I've (jumped out a window and) been wondering who does play the most like greninja? I think, if we had to put the label on it, he's more of a poor man's fox if anything. Even still Greninja has somethings Fox doesn't.

They both like to keep up the pressure with combos, projectiles, and high mobility. They both Fox has better ground mobility,kill moves and combos, but greninja has a better projectile, air mobility, recovery, lives longer, and can escape some combos with SS.

These differences are pretty big in terms of their respective viability, but their playstyles seems related. Your thoughts?

Are you gonna fix that window anytime soon?

 

[RonNewcomb]

When I play him, I try to use all of Ryu's tools to the best of my ability in order to make it an advantageous matchup

Total tangent here, but sometimes knowing a MU well means knowing which tools of yours to NOT use. Particularly tools that are actually good in most other MUs, since these are the subtlest to discover. I'm not saying you didn't already know this, but it was an epiphany I had had at one point in SF4 which served me well.

( I think Pit players know this in their bones. Arrows are great, but don't get in a zoning war with Olimar.)

Back on topic, not a lot of talk about Kirby or Link since the patch, both of whom I think are really underrated now. Hyrule Hero has beaten Denti and CosmicCosmos in the most recent TLOC tournament. Can any Kirby/Link main care to discuss about what holds for them this version?

Link has the same problems post-patch as Marth and Shulk do: why play any of them when you can play Cloud and have the best attributes of all three put together?

(...and still not make it to high tier.)

 

[wpwood]

Are you gonna fix that window anytime soon?

Why if he's just gonna jump out it again?

 

[Y2Kay]

Are you gonna fix that window anytime soon?

Why if he's just gonna jump out it again?

Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.

 

[Solfiner]

Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.

Can confirm - have jumped out of several windows.

Regarding 7:3 match-ups (a bit late I know), Shulk against Fox, maybe Sheik, correct me if I'm wrong. Those match-ups are garbage.

 

[adom4]

Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.

That video hurts my soul

 

[Plain Yogurt]

You wouldn't believe how many people still think Jump makes Shulk lighter. That's the one I always hear anyways. For the record, he WILL die slightly earlier, but that's on the bonus damage.

Yeah Fox is still THE awful Shulk matchup. I'm pretty sure Sheik is among our worst as well, but I have seen over time multiple Shulk mains/players say that it's not as bad as you'd think.

I really wish I had more top tier experience (of course, that's on me not working my way through pools well enough). The only ones I'm first-hand mostly sure about is Fox being terrible, Sheik being pretty bad, and Rosalina being pretty close to even, maybe her favor thanks to superior edge-guarding/uair/dair being dumb.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The wind monado is broken...

I believe Fox is rated at 70:30 and Shiek is 65:35. I could be wrong.

 

[|RK|]

So many Kirby's play way too aggressively, IMO. Like, playing a patient Kirby (especially with the runspeed buff) shows exactly how good the character can be. That's part of why MikeKirby is so good - consistent patience.

He has tools to win pretty much any matchup if you play it right, even if he's disadvantaged in many.