Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nobie]

I think that the dev team should revisit SHeik and ZSS and do a sensible nerf on them. Its clear they dominate everybody.

"Wins a lot" doesn't necessarily mean that they "dominate everybody."

How close were the matches that these Sheiks and ZSSs won? Did it come down to last hit, last stock? What was the skill difference between the players (the fact that Nairo is the one taking most of these tournaments as ZSS says something)?

 

[LightLV]

"Wins a lot" doesn't necessarily mean that they "dominate everybody."

How close were the matches that these Sheiks and ZSSs won? Did it come down to last hit, last stock? What was the skill difference between the players (the fact that Nairo is the one taking most of these tournaments as ZSS says something)?

"Wins alot" in a tournament context kinda does.

Nah, the top 5 in this game dominate everybody. Nerfing them in a meaningful way would certainly be an inherent buff to everyone else in the game. They're that good.

It's never going to happen, but yeah, that's how it is.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can respect Nairo's decision to go Dark Pit against Rosie. There's a bit of confusion as to what the final matchup score is - I've heard everything from "slightly in Rosie's favour" to "slightly in Dark Pit's favour"; personally, I think it's even but a bit frustrating - but there's definitely merit to the idea. Electroshock was always considered a potent gambit in the matchup. Now it's a potent gambit that, if used well, skews the risk / reward right into Dark Pit's favour.

You're probably going to be punished for it. Unless you can bait Luma out of Rosie's space and then knock it into orbit from there, Rosie's got a free pass to whack you with her magic galaxy hands. And magic galaxy hands hurt. But if that's your opening gambit, if you've been playing neutral with the aim of baiting the star child into the open so you can kill it stone dead, then it's not a bad risk by any means. You're going to take, what, somewhere in the realms of 12% damage and maybe a followup or two if it's at low percents? I don't think that's too much to ask. You take a slap on the wrist, Rosie's just had her ace in the hole gimped. Now the ball's in your court for the next 12 seconds. Not a lot of time to get stuff done, sure, but it's time that you'll be happy to have. That's peace of mind few other characters can catch at the touch of a button.

What's really interesting is that this isn't a one-off trick Dark Pit can do. Electroshock, if used correctly, is a constant threat in this matchup, potentially for both opponents: a risky Electroshock that misses is going to get Dark Pit punished with the full force of a thousand exploding supernovae, but an Electroshock in the right place and right time is a heavy burden for Rosie to bear. Play your cards right and you can even force Rosie to keep hers close to her chest, keeping Luma next to her for fear of it being caught out in the cold by itself. Then there's the not-very-insignificant threat of Rosie herself getting bopped by Electroshock if she makes a mistake: a high-stakes game by all accounts.

It's not an option that's going to win out every time, or that's even necessarily the best thing he can do, since it can just as easily backfire and get him an f-smash to the face - but it is an option that forces respect on both sides. Both opponents now have the ability to shut down the others' best options. It has a unique dynamic that few other matchups do. If you're confident in your Dark Pit (and gods know Nairo definitely is), there's merit to pulling it out in this matchup.

Fundamentally, I think both are about even in terms of what they can do. No side has the objective advantage when you take away the very things that define them. It's a matchup that's as much about negating the others' tools as it is about trying to claim a swift and decisive advantage. I don't think it's a great matchup for either side, or that Dark Pit has a significant advantage because of Electroshock, but it's something to consider. I respect the theory that no doubt helped inform Nairo's decision.

First off, I love your use of the phrase "magic galaxy hands" because it's completely true.

But I had a probably-crazy thought. Does Electroshock still hit Luma if it comes at Rosalina from behind? Can Rosalina feasibly turn around and then shield if she sees Electroshock coming to try and protect Luma?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

"Wins alot" in a tournament context kinda does.

Nah, the top 5 in this game dominate everybody. Nerfing them in a meaningful way would certainly be an inherent buff to everyone else in the game. They're that good.

It's never going to happen, but yeah, that's how it is.

More like sheik and ZSS only. Rosa, top 4 char and top 5 char don't dominate everybody. And who are these top 4 and 5 characters that are leaps ahead the top 6,7,8,9 and 10?

 

[Wintropy]

First off, I love your use of the phrase "magic galaxy hands" because it's completely true.

But I had a probably-crazy thought. Does Electroshock still hit Luma if it comes at Rosalina from behind? Can Rosalina feasibly turn around and then shield if she sees Electroshock coming to try and protect Luma?

I don't know about that, but I do know what I'm labbing when I get home~

The other thing I want to test for definite is how less effective Electroshock is in the air. I know Upperdash and pre-patch Electroshock used to have significantly decreased knockback in the air (for some reason), I want to see if it still makes a difference with the knockback buff and how it affects the matchup.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think it was since the meta revealed she has losing MUs vs [...] Pika and Falcon.

For some reason I have a hard time believing those two are bad matchups for her.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I like how false has somewhat picked up Falco and had an amazing set against a Marth in a tourney I can't remember. Are there any high tiers that he has positive matchup a with? I know that he gets decimated by the top 3 girls though.

 

[ARISTOS]

For some reason I have a hard time believing those two are bad matchups for her.

is definitely bad. Not really sure about

 

[Y2Kay]

Is electroshock really that good against Luma?

It leaves DP open for anything Rosalina wants, including (partially) charged smash attacks.

She then dodges things for ~12 seconds until Luma comes back and the process repeats.

In fairness that's more of a Rosalina balance problem. But still, she should be getting free punishes off electroshock hitting Luma.

No matter what she does, luma is gonna die when he use electroshock. At low percents it's pretty much worth it. A super armored moving attack can't be punished before luma dies . Not to mention that Rosalina dies at like 125% from the center of FD from electroshock too.

 

[Das Koopa]

Since someone asked, here's the tournament data: (with a few details/updates for accuracy and specificity!)

It's the number of times each character has made Top 8, with a grind down to Top 4, and then another to Winners. This includes MVG onwards, as they used the 1.0.6 patch going by the site's rules and a reddit post discussing the event.

Spoiler

April 18th-January 3rd Tournament Character Spread

Top 8:

Sheik: 27
Zero Suit Samus: 18
Diddy Kong: 13
Rosalina & Luma: 10
Captain Falcon: 8
Donkey Kong: 7 (5 DKwill, 2 M2K.)
Mario: 7
Ness: 6
Sonic: 6
Pikachu: 6 (5 from ESAM, 1 from Z.)
Wario: 4 (2 between Reflex and Abadango.)
Meta Knight: 4
Ryu: 3
Bowser Jr.: 2 (Both Tweek: He also secondaries Wario.)
Luigi: 2
Villager: 2
Fox: 2
Pac-Man: 2
Mega Man: 2
Toon Link: 2 (Snasen at Eclipse: 7th.)
Ike: 1 (Ryo at MLG.)
Marth: 1 (AirVault at MVG Sandstorm: 7th.)
Little Mac: 1 (Apachai at MVG Sanstorm: 7th.)
Lucario: 1
Yoshi: 1 (Firefly at Pax Prime: 5th.)
Peach: 1 (SlayerZ at Paragon LA 2015. 7th.)
Olimar: 1 (Logic at Pax Prime: 7th. Secondary was Diddy.)
Kirby: 1 (MikeKirby: 5th at KTAR XIV.)
Link: 1 (Christan Johnston: 5th At Eclipse. Used Ryu as secondary.)
Pit: 1 (Earth, 7th at Umebara Qualifier. Also made 9th at Umebara F.A.T., with Fox as a secondary.)


Top 4:

Zero Suit Samus: 16
Sheik: 12
Rosalina & Luma: 7
Diddy Kong: 4
Pikachu: 4
Mario: 4
Donkey Kong: 4
Ness: 2
Captain Falcon: 2
Luigi: 2
Pac-Man: 2 (Abandango & Koolaid; Koolaid used Doc as secondary.)
Wario: 2
Sonic: 2
Villager: 1
Fox: 1 (Larry Lurr at CEO, 4th.)
Toon Link: 1 (Hyuga at Smash Factor 4: 3rd.)
Meta Knight: 1
Bowser Jr.: 1
Lucario: 1 (Loota at Eclipse: 4th.)
Mega Man: 1 (ScAtt at Tipped Off 11. 4th.)


Winner:

Zero Suit Samus: 8 (7 Nairo; 1 SmashSK at Eclipse.)
Sheik: 6 (All ZeRo.)
Diddy Kong: 2 (All ZeRo.)
Meta Knight: 1 (Leo at Smash Factor 4.)
Villager: 1 (Ranai at Umebara Qualifiers.)


Side notes;
There are multiple instances of Ryu and Sheik being secondaries.
ZeRo has instances of co-maining Sheik and Diddy.
Nairo throws out a lot of characters like Doc, Dark Pit, and Robin as secondaries.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Das Koopa That's the first ACTUAL tier list I've seen posted. As in, not a pile of speculation and theory craft, actual data. Good job.

It's also extremely clear what needs nerfing.

 

[Baskerville]

First off, I love your use of the phrase "magic galaxy hands" because it's completely true.

But I had a probably-crazy thought. Does Electroshock still hit Luma if it comes at Rosalina from behind? Can Rosalina feasibly turn around and then shield if she sees Electroshock coming to try and protect Luma?

It hits both of them simultaneously, both on the ground and in the air.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Didn't everybody agree that Sonic was Top 5? Sure, he loses to Ike and Rosalina, but he goes even with most of the cast, has some really good results and even after his nerfs, is still looking like a strong contender for Top 5.

 

[Baskerville]

Another thing to add about Electroshock against Luma, even if you perfect shield it Luma will still get hit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Another thing to add about Electroshock against Luma, even if you perfect shield it Luma will still get hit.

This applies to most attacks. Rosalina has very few options to protect Luma other than to GTFO. Shielding gets Luma hit, dodging gets Luma hit...

 

[Sonicninja115]

I like how false has somewhat picked up Falco and had an amazing set against a Marth in a tourney I can't remember. Are there any high tiers that he has positive matchup a with? I know that he gets decimated by the top 3 girls though.

It was Smash4ever, the videos are up on rush hour smash's youtube. And I think false only knows Falco because of Keitaro.

 

[Jams.]

I always thought Rosa was considered top 5 because she had better representation in NA than the other characters vying for those positions. The third best player in NA and three top 64/top 32 players means her representation is only second to Sheik. Almost every region also has their local ranked Rosalina. I feel like it's kind of a toss up past Sheik and ZSS anyway, so representation and meta-relevancy should probably play a factor. Her matchup spread is pretty polarized compared to other top tiers, so I feel like her position on the tier list is dependent on the meta; like ~ Gheb ~ said, ZSS is way underrepresented, so the stellar space princess can sit pretty on her lofty throne.

IMO is another top 5 contender that nobody has mentioned. Who does this character lose to (other than Sheik, that MU has been discussed to death in this thread and I have my own opinion on it)? Abadango thinks this character has what it takes.

For some reason I have a hard time believing those two are bad matchups for her.

Falcon and Rosalina both destroy each other in disadvantage. Rosalina generally has more reliable punishes and traps, but needs to more consistent with her timing and option select. Falcon's punish game is more dependent on reads and 50/50s, but he needs fewer of these to close out a stock. Rosa also can't wall out Falcon in neutral, but stray hits can convert into a lot of damage in this MU. I feel like what tilts this MU slightly in Falcon's favour is how easily and consistently he can kill Luma, at which point the MU becomes solidly in Falcon's favour.

I think Pikachu has a slight edge because he can use quick attack to escape most of Rosalina's juggles and ledge traps, which is one of her biggest assets, while at the same time having a great edgeguard game on Rosalina. On the other hand, he can get walled in neutral (though it's difficult, Dabuz vs ESAM shows it's possible) and he can die really early from stray Luma hits.

 

[LightLV]

I like how false has somewhat picked up Falco and had an amazing set against a Marth in a tourney I can't remember. Are there any high tiers that he has positive matchup a with? I know that he gets decimated by the top 3 girls though.

I honestly don't think Marth is even that good compared to Falco. This isn't all that surprising to me.

More like sheik and ZSS only. Rosa, top 4 char and top 5 char don't dominate everybody. And who are these top 4 and 5 characters that are leaps ahead the top 6,7,8,9 and 10?

Depends on who you think is top 5. I'd personally say Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Falcon, and Diddy are among the best characters in the game, and cannot really think of any character they are not better than in multiple ways. Ridiculous frames, kill potential, practical setups to take stocks and answers for pretty much everything.

You can probably replace Diddy with Pikachu or Rosalina, and that's almost specifically because of Diddy's recovery. That's technically 7 characters, but everyone else i'd stick on a tier under them.

If you aren't playing one of these characters, and you encounter one of these characters towards the end of a tournament, i'm fully expecting you to not make it to grand finals.

 

[ぱみゅ]

IMO is another top 5 contender that nobody has mentioned. Who does this character lose to (other than Sheik, that MU has been discussed to death in this thread and I have my own opinion on it)? Abadango thinks this character has what it takes.

ZSS, though MK's seem to have discovered that rising Uair is a decent option for that MU.
Sonic is awful.
I think Ryu has a slight advantage, too.
So does Diddy.
Mario is a tough one.

All of that is my opinion.

Falcon and Rosalina both destroy each other in disadvantage. Rosalina generally has more reliable punishes and traps, but needs to more consistent with her timing and option select. Falcon's punish game is more dependent on reads and 50/50s, but he needs fewer of these to close out a stock. Rosa also can't wall out Falcon in neutral, but stray hits can convert into a lot of damage in this MU. I feel like what tilts this MU slightly in Falcon's favour is how easily and consistently he can kill Luma, at which point the MU becomes solidly in Falcon's favour.

I think Pikachu has a slight edge because he can use quick attack to escape most of Rosalina's juggles and ledge traps, which is one of her biggest assets, while at the same time having a great edgeguard game on Rosalina. On the other hand, he can get walled in neutral (though it's difficult, Dabuz vs ESAM shows it's possible) and he can die really early from stray Luma hits.

Not entirely convinced for the first one, I mean, Luma is a tough one for Falcon, he can get walled out, and both lack true disjoint ("both" as in "Falcon and Luma", Rosalina doesn't lack).

But the second one is pretty much the description of the Pika-Mario matchup plus the random Luma kills.[/COLOR]

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I honestly don't think Marth is even that good compared to Falco. This isn't all that surprising to me.



Depends on who you think is top 5. I'd personally say Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Falcon, and Diddy are among the best characters in the game, and cannot really think of any character they are not better than in multiple ways. Ridiculous frames, kill potential, practical setups to take stocks and answers for pretty much everything.

You can probably replace Diddy with Pikachu or Rosalina, and that's almost specifically because of Diddy's recovery. That's technically 7 characters, but everyone else i'd stick on a tier under them.

If you aren't playing one of these characters, and you encounter one of these characters towards the end of a tournament, i'm fully expecting you to not make it to grand finals.

Those characters don't have 7-3 MUs across the board. Not even sheik does.

 

[Dagon97]

Those characters don't have 7-3 MUs across the board. Not even sheik does.

vs. is 7-3 easy.
can run away forever.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

vs. is 7-3 easy.
can run away forever.

He said "across the board" and I'm inclined to agree that no one in this game has a majority of matchups that are 7-3 in their favor.

 

[Zelder]

I honestly don't think Marth is even that good compared to Falco. This isn't all that surprising to me.



Depends on who you think is top 5. I'd personally say Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Falcon, and Diddy are among the best characters in the game, and cannot really think of any character they are not better than in multiple ways. Ridiculous frames, kill potential, practical setups to take stocks and answers for pretty much everything.

You can probably replace Diddy with Pikachu or Rosalina, and that's almost specifically because of Diddy's recovery. That's technically 7 characters, but everyone else i'd stick on a tier under them.

If you aren't playing one of these characters, and you encounter one of these characters towards the end of a tournament, i'm fully expecting you to not make it to grand finals.

You'd knock Diddy down a level because of his recovery, but keep Falcon on that level? Well, that's...hmm. Have you ever tried recovering with Falcon (or escaping disadvantage, for another matter)?

 

[Mario766]

You'd be hard pressed to find 7-3s on any character that isn't Sheik/ZSS.

That's how balanced the game is.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You'd be hard pressed to find 7-3s on any character that isn't Sheik/ZSS.

That's how balanced the game is.

Polarizing strategies tho

 

[LancerStaff]

The other thing I want to test for definite is how less effective Electroshock is in the air. I know Upperdash and pre-patch Electroshock used to have significantly decreased knockback in the air (for some reason), I want to see if it still makes a difference with the knockback buff and how it affects the matchup.

Because they're a bit safer in the air and keeps the Arms from being incredibly threatening when the angels are recovering. That, and an Electroshock "gimp" is already going to outright kill at like 20%...

Aerial Electroshock wasn't touched in the damage department and didn't have any buffs to knockback, just a slight KB nerf and an angle change which more then counteracts said nerf. Still not really a relevant killing tool I'm afraid, and Upperdash will kill faster then Electroshock in a meh position. If you think there's a chance of getting a hit (which is probably the reason you're using the move in the first place) you're much better off sticking on the ground because there's that much more reward. Against a player familiar with the Arms' mechanics chances are that you're probably eating a partly charged smash either way...

Das Koopa That's the first ACTUAL tier list I've seen posted. As in, not a pile of speculation and theory craft, actual data. Good job.

It's also extremely clear what needs nerfing.

Results aren't the end all for tiering... Case in point, Brawl Dorf had better results then most of the low and bottom tiers and still got placed dead last.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You'd be hard pressed to find 7-3s on any character that isn't Sheik/ZSS.

That's how balanced the game is.

There's quite a number of 7/3 matchups I can think of that don't involve either character.

 

[Mario766]

Polarizing strategies tho

A 7-3 is getting close to DDD vs DK in Brawl.

That's hard to get to.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

There's quite a number of 7/3 matchups I can think of that don't involve either character.

"Quite a number" I'm thinking you're thinking of the MUs vs the top tiers.

EDIT: Mario766 i think it's possible have a 7-3 without approaching that level, since that level is basically mission impossible. A 7-3 is more on the lines of and . Rob has to work his absolute metal off to keep MK from getting in, and if he does allow MK to get in, he's going to take +40% and a very possible edge guard/gimp. He's basically working 5x harder than MK to dominate. It's POSSIBLE but very unlikely.

 

[warionumbah2]

ZSS is not an unfavorable MU for MK anymore, he can exploit her lack of rising aerials so hard. It becomes more apparent at top level, but sadly Abadango is the only top MK that knows what he's doing.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ZSS is not an unfavorable MU for MK anymore, he can exploit her lack of rising aerials so hard. It becomes more apparent at top level, but sadly Abadango is the only top MK that knows what he's doing.

Ito, tyrant and Salena not good enough?

 

[Hydde]

Das Koopa That's the first ACTUAL tier list I've seen posted. As in, not a pile of speculation and theory craft, actual data. Good job.

It's also extremely clear what needs nerfing.

Exactly. If this doesnt cut it as actual proof, then i dont know what will. Taken out from high level tournies.

A revisit to sheik and ZSS and a thoughtful buff to bottom tiers and some low tiers..would go a long way

 

[David Viran]

Exactly. If this doesnt cut it as actual proof, then i dont know what will. Taken out from high level tournies.

A revisit to sheik and ZSS and a thoughtful buff to bottom tiers and some low tiers..would go a long way

I don't see this as proof for zss really considering that 80% of it is just nairo being at so many tournaments.

 

[FallofBrawl]

In regards to the Falcon vs Rosa MU. I recall, before their set in SSC, Fatality Falcon taking and beating Dabuz Rosa a number of games in a row (I don't remember the exact number but I remember it being ~5 or more). That's what inclined Dabuz to try out Olimar when he met him in bracket, and ultimately lose.

His dash grab is too hard for Luma to punish and almost all his moves knock him away. Sure they both poop on each other offstage, but Falcon has a slight edge in the neutral game. Falcon has the MU favour IMO but not by much.

EDIT: About the tourney top 8's for each character, if Nairo and ZeRo didn't exist, it would be a balanced portion of characters.

 

[Locke 06]

With regards to Rosa v Falcon, I would assume Tearbear v Falln would be of note since they are both in the same region and probably have more practice in the matchup.

Their games over multiple sets might be more indicative of how the matchup plays out than one tournament of Dabuz v Fatality.

 

[G. Stache]

ZSS is not an unfavorable MU for MK anymore, he can exploit her lack of rising aerials so hard. It becomes more apparent at top level, but sadly Abadango is the only top MK that knows what he's doing.

Isn't Leo still a thing? I honestly thought he was the best MK.

About the tourney top 8's for each character, if Nairo and ZeRo didn't exist, it would be a balanced portion of characters.

This
I feel as if everyone confuses character dominance with player skill, at least by a bit. Yeah, I'll be the first one to spout out how silly Shieks Fair is and how her recovery needs to be tweaked, but we also need to take a step back and realize that Zero and Nairo are just very skilled players and calling for extreme nerfs on either of these characters will result in them being reduced to rubble

 

[Rikkhan]

Since someone asked, here's the tournament data: (with a few details/updates for accuracy and specificity!)

It's the number of times each character has made Top 8, with a grind down to Top 4, and then another to Winners. This includes MVG onwards, as they used the 1.0.6 patch going by the site's rules and a reddit post discussing the event.

Spoiler

April 18th-January 3rd Tournament Character Spread

Top 8:

Sheik: 27
Zero Suit Samus: 18
Diddy Kong: 13
Rosalina & Luma: 10
Captain Falcon: 8
Donkey Kong: 7 (5 DKwill, 2 M2K.)
Mario: 7
Ness: 6
Sonic: 6
Pikachu: 6 (5 from ESAM, 1 from Z.)
Wario: 4 (2 between Reflex and Abadango.)
Meta Knight: 4
Ryu: 3
Bowser Jr.: 2 (Both Tweek: He also secondaries Wario.)
Luigi: 2
Villager: 2
Fox: 2
Pac-Man: 2
Mega Man: 2
Toon Link: 2 (Snasen at Eclipse: 7th.)
Ike: 1 (Ryo at MLG.)
Marth: 1 (AirVault at MVG Sandstorm: 7th.)
Little Mac: 1 (Apachai at MVG Sanstorm: 7th.)
Lucario: 1
Yoshi: 1 (Firefly at Pax Prime: 5th.)
Peach: 1 (SlayerZ at Paragon LA 2015. 7th.)
Olimar: 1 (Logic at Pax Prime: 7th. Secondary was Diddy.)
Kirby: 1 (MikeKirby: 5th at KTAR XIV.)
Link: 1 (Christan Johnston: 5th At Eclipse. Used Ryu as secondary.)
Pit: 1 (Earth, 7th at Umebara Qualifier. Also made 9th at Umebara F.A.T., with Fox as a secondary.)


Top 4:

Zero Suit Samus: 16
Sheik: 12
Rosalina & Luma: 7
Diddy Kong: 4
Pikachu: 4
Mario: 4
Donkey Kong: 4
Ness: 2
Captain Falcon: 2
Luigi: 2
Pac-Man: 2 (Abandango & Koolaid; Koolaid used Doc as secondary.)
Wario: 2
Sonic: 2
Villager: 1
Fox: 1 (Larry Lurr at CEO, 4th.)
Toon Link: 1 (Hyuga at Smash Factor 4: 3rd.)
Meta Knight: 1
Bowser Jr.: 1
Lucario: 1 (Loota at Eclipse: 4th.)
Mega Man: 1 (ScAtt at Tipped Off 11. 4th.)


Winner:

Zero Suit Samus: 8 (7 Nairo; 1 SmashSK at Eclipse.)
Sheik: 6 (All ZeRo.)
Diddy Kong: 2 (All ZeRo.)
Meta Knight: 1 (Leo at Smash Factor 4.)
Villager: 1 (Ranai at Umebara Qualifiers.)


Side notes;
There are multiple instances of Ryu and Sheik being secondaries.
ZeRo has instances of co-maining Sheik and Diddy.
Nairo throws out a lot of characters like Doc, Dark Pit, and Robin as secondaries.

Nice list, I remember doing a tournament data/power ranking a while ago, If you like you could give a look here, the tournament data is not updated tho, is up to Big House 5.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A 7-3 is getting close to DDD vs DK in Brawl.

That's hard to get to.

Dude, you're lowballing hard on DDD vs DK. That matchup was *way* worse than just 7/3. With the infinite legal you might as well call it 10/0 in DDD's favor.

7/3 is stuff like vs and I can see a whole bunch of matchups in smash 4 being on a similar level.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Leo is a good player, but I don't know how well would he know the ZSS matchup.
Ito might learn it, so does Salena.
Tyrant is not a technical player, he probably wouldn't.
Abadango, is the only top MK who would for certain.
Katakiri and Tech would learn it too, but they are not considered Top Players despite being good.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Isn't Leo still a thing? I honestly thought he was the best MK.


This
I feel as if everyone confuses character dominance with player skill, at least by a bit. Yeah, I'll be the first one to spout out how silly Shieks Fair is and how her recovery needs to be tweaked, but we also need to take a step back and realize that Zero and Nairo are just very skilled players and calling for extreme nerfs on either of these characters will result in them being reduced to rubble

The thing is, they don't have to be extreme nerfs; we don't want revenge against it anything ( at least some of us don't). Removing some invincibility frames on her recovery and down b moves, along with tweaking Fair and needles are all sheik needs really. ZSS just needs nerfs on her down b invincibility frames, nothing else imo. She's really well balanced (more like her extremes are basically steroids: beefs you up and bites you back real hard).