Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Baby_Sneak]

He has a poor neutral but is very difficult to extend a lead on due to his aerials and ridiculous airdodge. So he fails an approach, gets smacked, and there's hella reads that need to be made to punish his landing unless you can cover them all. (Needles, Spindash, Luma Stuff)

With rage never screwing up any kind of kill confirm for him because bthrow and uair just kill raw... If the opponent makes the wrong reads he can just win off that.

what if the opponent never overextends? Ness is curtains then. Oh and this

That doesn't look sloppy to me. Not targeting you specifically, I just don't agree with that statement.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm glad DK Will made very clear note of the DK > Mario MU, I hope it'll REALLY make the whole "Mario loses to DK" thing a lot more widespread and put out there, cause he def does lose to DK. Not too surprised that DK was barred from advancing further though, the top tier MUs.....so rough for him.

 

[Das Koopa]

I wouldn't sell him short like that, especially when you consider how close the second to last set was (i.e. It wasn't a firm thumping). Dabuz has always struggled with Nairo, and he played really well despite the fact Nairo was totally on point the whole time (because he was). But anyway

Nairo is so amazing at killing Luma. He has kill combos for him and everything. And I second the thing about ZSS' neutral, it doesn't look weak at all unless you're comparing it to Sheik, and then it still doesn't look weak IMO.

I lol'd when Nairo bodied Ally's Shulk. Ally didn't look good enough with Shulk to warrant taking him out against Nairo.

Here's how I look at it: I give credit to Dabuz for taking it as far as he did and I think he's overall made a lot of improvements in his various matches with Nairo, but I don't think that first set is as "huge" or definitive as it could've been since Nairo quickly and progressively took all of the momentum back.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Moving on to more on-topic things, I'm glad DK Will made very clear note of the DK > Mario MU, I hope it'll REALLY make the whole "Mario loses to DK" thing a lot more widespread and put out there, cause he def does lose to DK. Not too surprised that DK was barred from advancing further though, the top tier MUs.....so rough for him.

I have to make shout outs to @A2ZOMG. He claimed it long ago and I knew it was true, but I just couldn't bring myself to admitting it. Then I was playing MU a lot and winning them and then saw will do amazing stuff (while also doing questionable stuff too). DK does well against people who have lower mobility than him and when he has better range. Mario is slower in the air and ground than DK, so its possible.

 

[Sleek Media]

Here's how I look at it: I give credit to Dabuz for taking it as far as he did and I think he's overall made a lot of improvements in his various matches with Nairo, but I don't think that first set is as "huge" or definitive as it could've been since Nairo quickly and progressively took all of the momentum back.

Even the first set was questionable since Nairo SD'd mid-set. It ended up being a 2-stock, but there's no doubt you play differently after an SD like that.

I don't see how Rosa is supposed to stay ahead. I was watching specifically to see how many times Nairo used the flip kick to get out of a disadvantage and reset to neutral, and I lost count. The advantage state is a big part of what makes Rosa great, and ZSS simply no-sells it. Even with those very questionable 15% KOs off the top, Dabuz still lost...

 

[DunnoBro]

what if the opponent never overextends? Ness is curtains then.

Then he's able to output more damage by overextending himself because the opponent is being overly conservative? This doesn't make ness any harder or easier to play, it's just a factor every character has to deal with.

(And again, only concretes my point cause the decision has to be made by the opponent to never overextend. This isn't the ness's issue)

Oh and this

That doesn't look sloppy to me. Not targeting you specifically, I just don't agree with that statement.

Skill being displayed with a character doesn't mean it's not still a character that demands less skill than others. I'm not claiming he's braindead or anything but Ness is clearly one of the easiest characters to pick up. His moves are meaty, straightforward, and almost never not worth trading with. There's no 50/50s to learn either.

 

[David Viran]

I don't see how Rosa is supposed to stay ahead. I was watching specifically to see how many times Nairo used the flip kick to get out of a disadvantage and reset to neutral, and I lost count. The advantage state is a big part of what makes Rosa great, and ZSS simply no-sells it. Even with those very questionable 15% KOs off the top, Dabuz still lost...

Funny you mention flip jump. Nairo actually didn't use flip jump to reset all that much the first set. He did start using it the second set tho.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Then he's able to output more damage by overextending himself because the opponent is being overly conservative? This doesn't make ness any harder or easier to play, it's just a factor every character has to deal with.

(And again, only concretes my point cause the decision has to be made by the opponent to never overextend. This isn't the ness's issue)



Skill being displayed with a character doesn't mean it's not still a character that demands less skill than others. I'm not claiming he's braindead or anything but Ness is clearly one of the easiest characters to pick up. His moves are meaty, straightforward, and almost never not worth trading with. There's no 50/50s to learn either.

it's not a black or white situation; you can avoid overextending while still constantly engaging your opponent. The vid is proof of such. and ness is not void of having to consider his aggression, he would just get blown up.

A character that's easy to pick up w/o any technical requirements usually end up relying on reads, which is founded on fundamentals (footsies). Ness may be easy to pick up, but optimizing his neutral to the point of pixel-perfect spacing and performing that ultra delicate dance makes him pretty hard to master ( of course it's not specific to him, but because of his simplicity, imo he emphasizes that aspect of play at the highest levels).

 

[Nobie]

Not to throw this too far into theory land, but I feel like some of the discussion about what it means to react to something, or how X or Y move isn't reactable, needs to be informed by this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQCan5oo90

It's SFIV and not Smash, but the core message is the same: "reacting" in the neutral game is neither pure reaction time, nor is it pure prediction, but rather a melding of the two. You go into scenarios (or indeed try to set up scenarios) where you try to get your opponent to react in a certain way, then react to the punishes you're expecting, rather than try to go for a raw reaction from something unexpected. Saying things like, "Well this Frame 3 move is a combo breaker and it's Frame 3 so of course it'd win" assumes that the opponent did not also expect you to throw out that Frame 3 combo breaker and react accordingly.

 

[DunnoBro]

it's not a black or white situation; you can avoid overextending while still constantly engaging your opponent. The vid is proof of such. and ness is not void of having to consider his aggression, he would just get blown up.

A character that's easy to pick up w/o any technical requirements usually end up relying on reads, which is founded on fundamentals (footsies). Ness may be easy to pick up, but optimizing his neutral to the point of pixel-perfect spacing and performing that ultra delicate dance makes him pretty hard to master ( of course it's not specific to him, but because of his simplicity, imo he emphasizes that aspect of play at the highest levels).

Skill ceiling is an entirely different discussion, we were talking about floors.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Skill ceiling is an entirely different discussion, we were talking about floors.

Oh. My apologies then. Never mind me

*goes back onto YouTube to watch mor Japanese smash play*

 

[Vipermoon]

Thinkaman Ally is pretty susceptible to upsets though. Like by Zinoto double elim. a couple of weeks ago and Mr. E in a winners finals whenever that was. I don't know if this is a Mario thing or an Ally thing.

Lord Sturm* btw

 

[Jams.]

Dabuz finally beat Nairo in a set! This is amazing and I need to watch this. I feel like the matchup is still garbage for Rosalina though. =(

So...watching Nairo vs Ally. Can someone please tell me how ZSS supposedly has a bad neutral again? Because I'm seeing crazy pressure against Mario, of all characters.

When people say "ZSS has a lackluster neutral game," they usually mean relative to the other top tiers and not to the entire cast. With her great mobility, safe aerials, and fast normals, she has everything she needs to win neutral. However, she lacks burst options because she has no rising aerial game and dash grab/attack are very unsafe, and her neutral is hampered against small characters because hitting them with her falling aerials is very precise, thereby making the timings predictable. IMO, this keeps her neutral below the likes of Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Thinkaman Ally is pretty susceptible to upsets though. Like by Zinoto double elim. a couple of weeks ago and Mr. E in a winners finals whenever that was. I don't know if this is a Mario thing or an Ally thing.

Lord Sturm* btw

Ally lost to Zinoto a ton in Brawl, it wasn't really an upset. Ally doesn't really practice the game much but his solid fundamentals from Brawl are still present. There's a lot of misconception about Mario beating DK because "LOL MARIO COMBOS DK ALL DAY DERP", DK's range, up b escape, intangible pokes, better kill confirms/killpower makes us Mario mains tear up a bit. This is most likely a Mario thing (Anti agrees).

 

[Y2Kay]

To be fair, he did make the switch to , not entirely sure why but of course lolNairo

The new electroshock arm obliterates luma even more now

it's not even funny

 

[bc1910]

Is electroshock really that good against Luma?

It leaves DP open for anything Rosalina wants, including (partially) charged smash attacks.

She then dodges things for ~12 seconds until Luma comes back and the process repeats.

In fairness that's more of a Rosalina balance problem. But still, she should be getting free punishes off electroshock hitting Luma.

 

[PHP]

Is electroshock really that good against Luma?

It leaves DP open for anything Rosalina wants, including (partially) charged smash attacks.

She then dodges things for ~12 seconds until Luma comes back and the process repeats.

In fairness that's more of a Rosalina balance problem. But still, she should be getting free punishes off electroshock hitting Luma.

Killing Luma is always a bad trade for Rosalina

 

[Spinosaurus]

Losing Luma is worse than getting hit by a partially charged smash attack

 

[SaltyKracka]

I have trouble believing that.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Aerial electroshock tho

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario losing to DK is only the beginning. That character's got nowhere to go but down on the tierlist. Once Cloud settles in somewhere in top 10, Pikachu continues to be irrelevant and people realize that Mario doesn't atually do well against Sheik / ZSS and doesn't actually beat Diddy Kong people will hopefully stop placing Mario in top 5. Should Bayonetta and Corrin turn out to be viable the question we should actually ask ourselves is whether Mario is top 10 or not.

He's good but not on par with somebody like Fox or Diddy Kong.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Mario is still a bad matchup for a lot of characters, including high tiers.
From the top tier he may not do good against Sheik, ZSS and Ryu, but probably goes even or beats against pretty much anybody else up there.

Also, Diddy not a Top 5 character.
He's really good as his Neutral state seriously shuts down a lot of playstyles, like seriously, you need to be good at varying your actions, wether attacking, running, jumping or shielding, Diddy has answers for all of that, but not all at once so you need not to get predictable.
But he lacks the really strong kill power (I know he can kill pretty early with Fsmash tho) and reliable kill setups (people actually can avoid his Dtilt into stuff).
And grabbing at high percentages doesn't get him anywhere (sans at the ledge), as he has no followups or kills until very high percentages.
I think he is good enough to get to Top 10, but not Top 5.

Fox is a good contender tho.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario is still a bad matchup for a lot of characters, including high tiers.

Who are these high tiers that Mario supposedly beats? How do you define 'bad' matchup? I wouldn't consider a -1 disadvantage to be that bad ... and there are few matchups where Mario wins by more than that.

From the top tier he may not do good against Sheik, ZSS and Ryu, but probably goes even or beats against pretty much anybody else up there.

Except Sonic whom he loses to. And Rosalina whom he also loses to. And Fox whom he also loses to [slightly but still]. So that leaves pretty much Diddy Kong as a character Mario goes even with from top tier and Pikachu as a possible advantage. I don't really know how Mario does against MK or Cloud but I'd be pretty surprised if it were anything better than even.

 

[DunnoBro]

Top 5 without question includes sheik, zss, ryu, and fox. (Not necessarily in that order)

The 5th slot is really meta dependent.

Rosa is the main contender.

I think Japan has it right when the put Mario at the bottom of A tier. He doesn't really threaten much of A-S, but he is threat to B and below.

Also I think the general consensus is Mario's Sonic, Fox, and Diddy Kong MUs are even. (And he definitely wins the pika mu. Wayyy too much evidence of this, even on theory it makes sense since he counters pika's neutral and outdamages/outkills him) And he has a better sheik MU than fox, at least. (But Fox has a better ZSS MU)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And he has a better sheik MU than fox, at least.

Not sure what makes you think so. Fox has pretty respectable results against Sheik.

Edit: I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to Fox being definitely top 5 either. I think Sheik / ZSS > Ryu / Sonic is the current top 4. 5th place is up for grabs. Fox has somewhat of a realistic claim for that spot but I'm not sure if he does moreso than Rosalina or Diddy Kong. Cloud also has the potential to make it very high. I think Fox is top 8 for sure though.

 

[Das Koopa]

So, I looked through ssbwiki's National Tourney list, grabbed the results of every tournament, and compiled a useful list of character tops for Smash 4 singles since MVG Sandstorm (first tourney post-Diddy nerf.). I didn't include secondaries for simplicity's sake (causing a slight MoE on Sheik, Ryu, and Diddy's numbers.) Some interesting things I discovered:

-Zero Suit Samus has 18 total Top 8 tops, 16 Top 4s, and 8 wins.
-Sheik has 27 Top 8 tops, 12 Top 4s, and 6 wins.

Nairo has 7/8 Zero Suit Samus wins, with SmashSK, a Swedish player, winning Eclipse with ZSS. Nick Riddle and Ned (from yesterday!) are the only two ZSS players on this list to place out of Top 4.

-R.O.B and Dark Pit have never made top 8 at a national via being mained.
-Villager's first National Top 8 was a Japanese 1st place at Umebura Qualifiers.
-Ryu has 3 top 8s, but he's used a lot as a secondary. Didn't count this number as I only noticed the trend as I went on.
-Donkey Kong is tied with Mario for 5th most Top 8 placements at 7 each.
-Diddy and Falcon suffer large dropoffs. Diddy has 13 Top 8 placements, but only 4 Top 4 placements.
-Falcon has 8 Top 8 placements, but 2 Top 4 placements.

I have the whole list if anyone's interested, but these were the eye-catching tidbits.

 

[DunnoBro]

Not sure what makes you think so. Fox has pretty respectable results against Sheik.

The fact fox takes way more damage, is way easier to kill via edgeguards, and that mario's kill potential is at max against biggish fast fallers like sheik.

Also, Mario's results are better vs Sheik than Fox's. As far as I know, Ally and Zenyou have never lost to sheiks other than ZeRo's. Both the theory and results are there, Mario has a better sheik MU.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Larry has beaten Mr.r with Fox and winning records against k9 and void, SH from Japan hasn't lost to a Sheik player so far and Megafox outplaces/beats Denti and Karna. I think their results against Sheik are pretty equal overall.

Edit: Not 100% why we're discussing this though. I don't think that's a very relevant point to what I was arguing earlier. Mario is gonna go down a bit on people's tierlists. That's largely because a lot of people are overrating him right now though at top 5.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ally's beaten Void, and Vinnie, the topmost sheiks. k9 lost to tearbear's mario...

Also at TBH5, megafox lost to both void and vinnie's sheik... Meanwhile void and vinnie lost to Ally and Anti's Marios in the same tournament. While player level is still a factor, Mario's record is directly superior currently. And you can really just watch those matches and see the difference.

Mario is just safer and has similar damage/kill potential to fox in that MU.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, I looked through ssbwiki's National Tourney list, grabbed the results of every tournament, and compiled a useful list of character tops for Smash 4 singles since MVG Sandstorm (first tourney post-Diddy nerf.). I didn't include secondaries for simplicity's sake (causing a slight MoE on Sheik, Ryu, and Diddy's numbers.) Some interesting things I discovered:

-Zero Suit Samus has 18 total Top 8 tops, 16 Top 4s, and 8 wins.
-Sheik has 27 Top 8 tops, 12 Top 4s, and 6 wins.

Nairo has 7/8 Zero Suit Samus wins, with SmashSK, a Swedish player, winning Eclipse with ZSS. Nick Riddle and Ned (from yesterday!) are the only two ZSS players on this list to place out of Top 4.

-R.O.B and Dark Pit have never made top 8 at a national via being mained.
-Villager's first National Top 8 was a Japanese 1st place at Umebura Qualifiers.
-Ryu has 3 top 8s, but he's used a lot as a secondary. Didn't count this number as I only noticed the trend as I went on.
-Donkey Kong is tied with Mario for 5th most Top 8 placements at 7 each.
-Diddy and Falcon suffer large dropoffs. Diddy has 13 Top 8 placements, but only 4 Top 4 placements.
-Falcon has 8 Top 8 placements, but 2 Top 4 placements.

I have the whole list if anyone's interested, but these were the eye-catching tidbits.

I wanna see this

 

[ぱみゅ]

Question: since when has Rosalina been outside of the "indisputable Top 5 characters"?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Question: since when has Rosalina been outside of the "indisputable Top 5 characters"?

Ever since people realized that her truly dreadful tournament record against ZSS can't just be ignored. She's still a top 5 contender but it's definitely not undisputed.

 

[Wintermelon43]

*Dabuz is undisputed top five, almost defitenly third*

*Dabuz beats Nairo*

Next day:

*Ever since people realized that her truly dreadful tournament record against ZSS can't just be ignored. She's still a top 5 contender but it's definitely not undisputed.*

Makes perfect sense

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's exactly 1 win Rosie has against ZSS at high or top level within the first 1.5 years since the game's release.

 

[TriTails]

Speaking of Fox, how are his MUs against Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, etc against the other top tiers? Fox isn't discussed much here, and I have no idea how his MUs play out against the other characters. I know Luigi still beats him (Quite considerably less advantage than pre-patch tho IMO. Pre-patch D-throw kill setups were real. But at least combos, F3 N-air, and crawl still exist) and Doc quite possibly has a slight advantage from what I've heard. Mario is even-ish but leaning more to slight Fox's advantage. But then out of the bros I have zero clue.

I also have heard from someone in Marth Discord Ganon goes even against Fox. I myself am not sure on the reasons tho. IIRC he said were because Fox stuggles to kill Ganon in the matchup and Ganon mutilates Fox offstage, the rest I forgot. Any Fox mains can elaborate further?

 

[DunnoBro]

Question: since when has Rosalina been outside of the "indisputable Top 5 characters"?

I think it was since the meta revealed she has losing MUs vs Sheik, ZSS(not a big deal so far) Pika, MK, and Falcon. Of course this isn't enough to actually disbar her from top 5, but the recent revelations of bad mus definitely made people less quick to place her as top 5.

Speaking of Fox, how are his MUs against Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, etc against the other top tiers?

Sheik is bad, Rosa is bad. They challenge him in neutral hard and get more reward straight up. (edgeguards are the big thing)
ZSS is better, possibly even or his favor I've heard. It could just be very scary for ZSS, but his small size and ability to get the best, most consistent and rewarding punishes off ZSS mistakes makes it seem like decent MU at least.

I also have heard from someone in Marth Discord Ganon goes even against Fox. I myself am not sure on the reasons tho. IIRC he said were because Fox stuggles to kill Ganon in the matchup and Ganon mutilates Fox offstage, the rest I forgot. Any Fox mains can elaborate further?

Yea, nameless discord Marths are great sources on niche MU info =p

Ganon probably has more fun vs fox than most other top tiers because his reward is higher and more consistent, but it's not like his combo game is as good as fox's still. And fox can still outneutral him. I'm sure at casual-mid level it's evenish, maybe even on certain stages, but I'm not seeing it overall.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Speaking of Fox, how are his MUs against Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, etc against the other top tiers?

[...]

I also have heard from someone in Marth Discord Ganon goes even against Fox. I myself am not sure on the reasons tho. IIRC he said were because Fox stuggles to kill Ganon in the matchup and Ganon mutilates Fox offstage, the rest I forgot. Any Fox mains can elaborate further?

Rosie is Fox' worst matchup, Sheik is like -0.5 or something. ZSS is currently seens as pretty even but there aren't too many conclusive results to back it up yet. Pretty sure both side agree it's close though. Ganon is +1 Fox imo. Not a huge advantage but definitely not even.

Losing matchups for Fox are Rosalina > Ryu > Luigi / Sheik in that order.

 

[adom4]

I also have heard from someone in Marth Discord Ganon goes even against Fox. I myself am not sure on the reasons tho. IIRC he said were because Fox stuggles to kill Ganon in the matchup and Ganon mutilates Fox offstage, the rest I forgot. Any Fox mains can elaborate further?

I wouldn't say it's even since Fox racks up damage like a madman but it's one of Dorf's better top tier MUs, he has to respect dorf pretty hard.

 

[Wintropy]

I can respect Nairo's decision to go Dark Pit against Rosie. There's a bit of confusion as to what the final matchup score is - I've heard everything from "slightly in Rosie's favour" to "slightly in Dark Pit's favour"; personally, I think it's even but a bit frustrating - but there's definitely merit to the idea. Electroshock was always considered a potent gambit in the matchup. Now it's a potent gambit that, if used well, skews the risk / reward right into Dark Pit's favour.

You're probably going to be punished for it. Unless you can bait Luma out of Rosie's space and then knock it into orbit from there, Rosie's got a free pass to whack you with her magic galaxy hands. And magic galaxy hands hurt. But if that's your opening gambit, if you've been playing neutral with the aim of baiting the star child into the open so you can kill it stone dead, then it's not a bad risk by any means. You're going to take, what, somewhere in the realms of 12% damage and maybe a followup or two if it's at low percents? I don't think that's too much to ask. You take a slap on the wrist, Rosie's just had her ace in the hole gimped. Now the ball's in your court for the next 12 seconds. Not a lot of time to get stuff done, sure, but it's time that you'll be happy to have. That's peace of mind few other characters can catch at the touch of a button.

What's really interesting is that this isn't a one-off trick Dark Pit can do. Electroshock, if used correctly, is a constant threat in this matchup, potentially for both opponents: a risky Electroshock that misses is going to get Dark Pit punished with the full force of a thousand exploding supernovae, but an Electroshock in the right place and right time is a heavy burden for Rosie to bear. Play your cards right and you can even force Rosie to keep hers close to her chest, keeping Luma next to her for fear of it being caught out in the cold by itself. Then there's the not-very-insignificant threat of Rosie herself getting bopped by Electroshock if she makes a mistake: a high-stakes game by all accounts.

It's not an option that's going to win out every time, or that's even necessarily the best thing he can do, since it can just as easily backfire and get him an f-smash to the face - but it is an option that forces respect on both sides. Both opponents now have the ability to shut down the others' best options. It has a unique dynamic that few other matchups do. If you're confident in your Dark Pit (and gods know Nairo definitely is), there's merit to pulling it out in this matchup.

Fundamentally, I think both are about even in terms of what they can do. No side has the objective advantage when you take away the very things that define them. It's a matchup that's as much about negating the others' tools as it is about trying to claim a swift and decisive advantage. I don't think it's a great matchup for either side, or that Dark Pit has a significant advantage because of Electroshock, but it's something to consider. I respect the theory that no doubt helped inform Nairo's decision.

 

[Hydde]

I think that the dev team should revisit SHeik and ZSS and do a sensible nerf on them. Its clear they dominate everybody.