Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Locke 06]

I never knew Mega Man had so many transcendent moves. This is interesting.

Dsmash and fsmash are also transcendent, but they are also slow enough to be reactable. As are the explosion hitboxes of crash bomb (because that would be really dumb if you could clash with it).

Usmash has non-transcendent hitboxes though, it's an odd move.

However, DAir is not transcendent, which notably clanks with the reappearing hitbox of Vanish and other recovery hitboxes, pellets, leaf shield, MB, and the crash bomb missile are not transcendent.

Yeah, transcendent is a pretty weird term. Now that I've used it a ton in the span of 10 minutes.

Edit: the only move that hasn't been mentioned is Mega's disjointed FAir. Non-transcendent.

Edit 2: needles are either f11 at full charge or f16ish from first startup (f5 from the charging pose, 11 startup frames?). Whatever. Blah blah frame data supporting my claim: At mid-long range, they're reactable.

 

[Sleek Media]

It is.

Mega man's BAir is a giant disjointed aerial with stupid good range, a great air-air.
Up tilt is f5 intangible and transcendent.
Dtilt is functionally disjointed and transcendent beating every non-disjointed ground button if the hitboxes come out during the same frame.
Usmash doesn't care about crossups, disjointed, and transcendent.
Uair is a transcendent projectile.

These are all tools Mega has. Because of their disjoint and/or transcendence, everyone is forced to respect these tools.

You can start from there. Or you can give up.

Theorycraft gets us nowhere. Those moves are all useless unless Shiek makes a really bad spacing mistake, in which case any move in the game works. Mentioning the disjoint on dTilt must be some kind of joke, especially in this context. At best that disjoint gets you trades against other grounded moves. Go ahead and try to space her out with bAirs or whatever then get back to us. Do you seriously think Mega Man mains haven't tried everything in our kit? Nothing works against her. Again, needle camp beats every one of those moves, but even if it didn't, her spacing and frame advantages make it unfeasible to fight her up close. You used to be a Mega Man main, so you should know that every bAir, fAir, uAir, nAir, or any other move that Mega Man does not connect with WILL be punished by her speed, and the damage is going to be much worse than a few pellets or part of an air shooter. Mega Man gets camped badly by her, and she overwhelms him up close. It really is that simple. You can't just say "try harder" and expect reality to shift around you.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Theorycraft gets us nowhere.

You also said that Villager has a nonexistent offstage game, which is blatantly false, so...

Smooth Criminal

 

[R3D3MON]

So, the actual issue. Is there a combination of weight and fall speed that people on this board won't claim makes a character combo food, or can we just stop using this claim once and for all?

I think in the case of Rosa she isn't exactly "combo food", but certain kill setups becomes easier because she has a big frame while also being very light, similar to mewtwo. For example, meta knight can start a 0-death on Rosa by either doing d-throw or f-throw into fullhop up air into footstool jablock with d-tilt. After the lock you can go into dash attack> up air combos for the kill, and Rosa is just light enough and big enough to get killed by the setup.

Many of the high tier characters are combo food specifically because many of them are fast fallers and also have very light weight. Some of them also have a big frame in addition to these attributes (i.e. sheik and ZSS).

I feel like it depends on the specific MU. Many chars (my main included) like fast fallers for their combos.

But other chars (pre-patch Luigi and MK) love floaties.

This is I think also definitely true. But at least from my experiences fastfallers get combo-ed harder after about 20% or so but during very low percents they are less susceptible to stuff that lightweight and medium-weight characters might be susceptible to. Heavies are the biggest loser in this case because they are susceptible to everything >_>.

Specifically for pre-patch luigi, a super floaty character like jigglypuff could die to d-throw>tornado after about 60% with a bit of rage, which was ridiculous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Rdz_GqIFQ (skip to 7:16 in the video). Man, rage makes everything silly

In the case of MK, MK likes both floaties and fastfallers. Floaties get killed by 0-death setups with footstool between 0-30% or so (check out bonk! and Ito's youtube channels for video examples). Fastfallers can die to the dash attack>uair kill setup starting around 30% (this slightly changes with rage and such), but for some fastfallers that have high gravity and fast falling speed, you will probably need to fastfall>immediately jump>uair in between uairs. Heavies also are susceptible to this. The kill combo works until around the 50% range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xe1bT2PNEY (skip to 3:44 in the video. Also I would like to mention San's very good DI during the first hit of shuttle loop to avoid getting hit by the final hit, which would have killed him).

 

[Kofu]

Villager's offstage game is very tame. His nAir has a bad launch angle for gimping, so all you really have is an average spike that is randomly unreliable. fAir/bAir can gimp if you sweetspot, but nobody should let you get that close.

Have... have you played a good Villager?

FSmash demolishes characters with primarily vertical recoveries or characters forced to recover low (it also gets stronger than normal after falling a bit). It can also do a good job at nabbing the brief vulnerability frames while grabbing the ledge, particularly for teleport recoveries. Timber does similar things but has the added advantages of being massive and covering various ledge getup options. It's a lot easier to see coming though.

All aerials except for UAir are good for gimping. NAir's knockback angle isn't ideal but it lasts a long time and has very few cooldown frames. NAir and BAir knock the opponent away when close and can steal jumps at a distance. People dodging them makes them fall which puts them in a position to be NAired/DAired.

Lloid can make for some great traps and often forces the opponent to recover in a certain way if they want to avoid it. He can also throw his dash attack offstage though its launch angle sends them higher (good for landing FAir/BAir).

And, as has been borough up, Villager can recover from the blast zone with no worries. He makes Pikachu's recovery look tame. This is a huge boon.

 

[Das Koopa]

You also said that Villager has a nonexistent offstage game, which is blatantly false, so...

Smooth Criminal

In fairness, somebody can say something dumb and still have a point in other areas. Disregarding one opinion/perspective because that person has another perspective is antithetical to what we're supposed to be doing. We're Fightan Vidya Scientists!

 

[Sleek Media]

You also said that Villager has a nonexistent offstage game, which is blatantly false, so...

Smooth Criminal

I said he has a tame offstage game, and I explained why he does. I also named a character with a better offstage game. Feel free to make a meaningful argument.

Have... have you played a good Villager?

I frequently encounter Cree in tournament, who has a number of notable power ranked wins. What you said about Villager having good options and traps is true, but you're ignoring his weaknesses.

To be fair, I main Mega Man who has a very strong advantage over Villager. Lloyd, slingshot, nAir, pocket, it's all worthless. Mega will just shoot through it and evade. Even offstage, Villager needs Mega to be in a max distance recovery situation to actually gimp him, and Villager's ledge camp game falls apart under a shielding LS.

When I play as Rosalina, it's harder,but even though her recovery is fairly easy to gimp, I still never get gimped by Villager. The on stage game isn't very complicated either. Most people act like you have to shield the Lloyd and give up this big frame trap, but every character can punch through it with something (or roll if they expect Villager to read that). Double slingshots only get you so far against an opponent who understands the limitations of your movement and their options for cutting through your wall.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ganondorf comes across as an example of this. It genuinely seems like the only way to make his moveset work is to strap a Melee engine onto his back.

In fairness, I think most of the "Worst" characters could work as designed with a few changes. Zelda, for example, could just use less lag and more utility/speed with Din's Fire, her Phantom could be buffed charged could be held, less endlag on Naryu's, etc.

Reduce the end lag on Ftilt, Dtilt, Jab and Make side b untechable and start faster (along with increase in distance). And tada, an amazing ganon

 

[Locke 06]

Theorycraft gets us nowhere. Those moves are all useless unless Shiek makes a really bad spacing mistake, in which case any move in the game works. Mentioning the disjoint on dTilt must be some kind of joke, especially in this context. At best that disjoint gets you trades against other grounded moves. Go ahead and try to space her out with bAirs or whatever then get back to us. Do you seriously think Mega Man mains haven't tried everything in our kit? Nothing works against her. Again, needle camp beats every one of those moves, but even if it didn't, her spacing and frame advantages make it unfeasible to fight her up close. You used to be a Mega Man main, so you should know that every bAir, fAir, uAir, nAir, or any other move that Mega Man does not connect with WILL be punished by her speed, and the damage is going to be much worse than a few pellets or part of an air shooter. Mega Man gets camped badly by her, and she overwhelms him up close. It really is that simple. You can't just say "try harder" and expect reality to shift around you.

Umm. Yes. I have officially moved to Cloud until my Cloud is as good as my Megaman. Not because I think Cloud is better, or Megaman is worse, but because I want to play Cloud and develop him and he requires my full time because he's so different from all other smash 4 characters (mostly in mobility). When I learned Mega, I couldn't play anyone else. So it's happening again.

But that doesn't mean I haven't played tf out of the sheik matchup or that I've forgotten how it goes. It's awful. But I'm not theory crafting. It's not like I don't use up tilt to beat out sh landing FAir because of its intangibility. Or the soft NAir all Sheik's use to get BF kills can't be anti-air'd. Or that Back Air isn't amazing whenever Sheik is in the air. These aren't only facts, they're tools that you can look at and realize, "this is how I can take advantage of X." And then you do it.

And of course needles beat things. They're bs/a transcendent projectile. How do you think people feel about Falco lasers?

Spacing is a 2 player interaction. That's pretty much all that needs to be said.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

In fairness, somebody can say something dumb and still have a point in other areas. Disregarding one opinion/perspective because that person has another perspective is antithetical to what we're supposed to be doing. We're Fightan Vidya Scientists!

Never said he didn't have a point in other areas. Just implying that he may be a little off-base about Villager's offstage game being "tame." Kofu pretty much covered why.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sleek Media]

I think Ganon is already good. He fills a niche (heavy reads for early KOs). The problem is that there are so many characters with little to no weakness that his niche is irrelevant.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Sakurai should just nerf the kbg of zss and sheik's upb and call it a day (and also true srk haha )
this nerf would not change their playstyle, and they're already tame as far as top tier characters go, so...

 

[Nu~]

BSP I may have doubted you too soon.

For everyone:

So I was in the lab today with pacman with the intention of looking for possible counterplay in his ledge traps. I've noticed that very few of his options are reliable...

Jab launched hydrants with a trampoline underneath are beaten by ledge drop -> jump + aerial. Any hitbox cancels out the hydrant hitbox. I previously thought that the hydrant would fall on them too fast for this to work, but the hydrant rolls slowly...and then you would have to time it just right so that the opponent's ledge vulnerability won't aid them.
Same thing for any fruit + trampoline ledge trap of the same variety. Aerial Melons, bells, and the like will lose to weak hitboxes. You could try to time your fruit toss just right so that the opponent jumps at the same time that the bell would hit them, but then the opponent can just opt to wait.
There is even trampoline launched hydrant -> fall onto the ledge -> ledge trump Bair, but the opponent can smack you with an aerial of choice on your way down before you trump them.

Where I'm going with this is that I may have overstated PacMan's ability to overcome the counterplay of his own tools. Previously, I thought that pacman could be a successful trap/pressure character, but I begin to doubt this more and more the more I look at his design. His counterplay cripples him.

He has no legitimate kill setups without a fruit, he has no reliable way to keep pressure on the opponent, he has no reliable way to keep opponents out...The more you know about his obvious flaws, the more he crumbles.

I see this in his custom movesets as well. PacMan's specials lie on a thin line between gimmicky ways to oppress characters, and reliable options to use liberally. This combination was supposed to make pacman balanced, but the developers went too far to keep him from being broken. His customs show this in the way they were designed.

Looking at his hydrants, he has the choice of dire hydrant or on-fire hydrant. Dire hydrant is the reliable choice that throws obvious counterplay out of the window. It makes his disadvantage state rediculous, while giving him an option to beat dash grab and sh approaches. On fire hydrant is the gimmick because while it's incredibly disruptive, pacman can die from it as well if he gets too close. There's also the fact that it can't be launched as high or far so it's easier to avoid.

Side B is the same. He has the extended version which gives him the better recovery, but gets rid of all KO potential. You can no longer kill out of hard reads or bell connection. The enticing pellet exaggerates the other half of the power pellet's strengths and makes it incredibly powerful with a suction attribute to add to its gimmicky schtick.

Up B follows suit with the meteor trampoline and power pac jump. One has a fast, meaty hitbox on the bottom and the ability to ground opponents when red but is a trash recovery move(gimmicks...), while the other is great recovery move and potent kill move in the air. Uair can help set it up, then when it connects it takes opponents to the top blast zone around percentages as low as 100%.

And lastly, the fruit. I personally think they messed up here. Freaky fruit are all gimmicky individually, and lack cohesion as a whole. They all have situational use and strange properties, but don't mesh with each other. What's worse is that very few of them can set up a reliable kill...
Lazy fruit are supposed to be the reliable pick here since they move slowly enough to act as mines and barriers. You get easier traps out of them too and the combos you get are amazing. This is the pressure that pacman needs right?

...However, what makes it so bad is the fact that they are all items. Yes, you can z drop them all to your hearts content, but half of them fly half way across the screen. Hot and ready for your opponent to either cancel out their hitboxes with aerials/jabs/evil glares, or just catch them and proceed to z drop all over us instead.


All of this leaves me less than optimistic about our friend, the Pac-Man. His design is flawed by hasty nerfs on the development team's end, and the loss of customs which would have given him the reliability that he needs. I've been far too optimistic about the character out of bias. I loved the character too much to admit it sooner.

Edit: I guess this is why I keep leaving and coming back to this character. Heh

Super edit: perhaps lazy fruit isn't as bad as I thought. You can prevent them from being caught easily by throwing them into the wall and catching them. They fall slow enough for you to retrieve easily. And only apple and melon are thrown far away from you. Every other fruit is excellent. Now if only they didn't lose to hitboxes...pacman has to be very close to them to punish the hitlag/endlag.

 

[TurboLink]

Do you guys think that being the first official Smash bros game that has semi-bi-weekly whatever patches (I've lost count) it's affected character meta in a way that someone would complain/ask for nerfs/buffs instead of looking at tools that their character inherently has and optimizing them?

Obviously.

Sakurai should just nerf the kbg of zss and sheik's upb and call it a day (and also true srk haha )
this nerf would not change their playstyle, and they're already tame as far as top tier characters go, so...

I think nerfing the knockback growth on needles would be more impactful than nerfing her up special. If they nerf her recovery I imagine they'd just take away all invincibility until she disappeared.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think Ganon is already good. He fills a niche (heavy reads for early KOs). The problem is that there are so many characters with little to no weakness that his niche is irrelevant.

No, the problem is that's a stupid niche.

You can say "heavy reads", but what that actually means is "be much better than the other player".

And if you're that much better than your opponent, you can win with anybody.

 

[Sleek Media]

Umm. Yes. I have officially moved to Cloud until my Cloud is as good as my Megaman. Not because I think Cloud is better, or Megaman is worse, but because I want to play Cloud and develop him and he requires my full time because he's so different from all other smash 4 characters (mostly in mobility). When I learned Mega, I couldn't play anyone else. So it's happening again.

But that doesn't mean I haven't played tf out of the sheik matchup or that I've forgotten how it goes. It's awful. But I'm not theory crafting. It's not like I don't use up tilt to beat out sh landing FAir because of its intangibility. Or the soft NAir all Sheik's use to get BF kills can't be anti-air'd. Or that Back Air isn't amazing whenever Sheik is in the air. These aren't only facts, they're tools that you can look at and realize, "this is how I can take advantage of X." And then you do it.

And of course needles beat things. They're bs/a transcendent projectile. How do you think people feel about Falco lasers?

Spacing is a 2 player interaction. That's pretty much all that needs to be said.

This is the kind of theorycraft that made me leave the Mega Man boards for several months. I just got tired of talking at a wall.

"Mega Man has a strong matchup against Luigi. Just spam pellets".
No, he nAirs/dAirs through pellets. He corners us quickly.

"Mega Man has a slight advantage on Falcon because we control the neutral and can gimp him."
NO, we do not control the neutral, and he gimps us just as easily as we gimp him.

"Shiek isn't as bad as Mario because...bAir works? Or something? We don't know!!!"

Seriously, this **** gets so old so fast, and here you are spreading misinformation AGAIN. This is the reason that the Mega boards still don't know their own MUs. It's ridiculous.

You clearly know nothing about the Shiek MU. Who have you fought? When was it? You seriously expect me to believe that you use uTilt to challenge her fAir? That's not even safe when you connect until mid percents. At close range, Shiek is so fast that she's bound to make a small mistake here and there, but it's nowhere near enough to let us compete. Mega will fall behind, and he will fall behind very very fast. If you have some kind of video of you dumping on a Shiek with credentials, I'd love to see it. Otherwise stop spreading misinformation about Mega Man and focus on Cloud.

 

[Kofu]

I said he has a tame offstage game, and I explained why he does. I also named a character with a better offstage game. Feel free to make a meaningful argument.



I frequently encounter Cree in tournament, who has a number of notable power ranked wins. What you said about Villager having good options and traps is true, but you're ignoring his weaknesses.

To be fair, I main Mega Man who has a very strong advantage over Villager. Lloyd, slingshot, nAir, pocket, it's all worthless. Mega will just shoot through it and evade. Even offstage, Villager needs Mega to be in a max distance recovery situation to actually gimp him, and Villager's ledge camp game falls apart under a shielding LS.

When I play as Rosalina, it's harder,but even though her recovery is fairly easy to gimp, I still never get gimped by Villager. The on stage game isn't very complicated either. Most people act like you have to shield the Lloyd and give up this big frame trap, but every character can punch through it with something (or roll if they expect Villager to read that). Double slingshots only get you so far against an opponent who understands the limitations of your movement and their options for cutting through your wall.

For what it's worth I think ledge camping Villager is a bad strategy, let's get that out of the way

Mega Man's advantage against Villager is definitely strong but most of the moves you listed aren't "useless" in all cases, they're just a lot more restricted. Pellets and Mega Man's aerial maneuverability are quite frustrating.

Villager's edge guarding game is strong mainly because he has no notable fear of going too deep. His aerials are good but still require reads. Other characters with safe/long distance recoveries are obviously harder to gimp. I tend to use characters with strong edgeguarding games and I'm still working on getting more consistent at it. But just because your characters can avoid it often doesn't mean it's not a real threat for 90% of the cast.

Though I was mainly referring to using Lloid as an offstage tool (where it's harder to just punch through it) I appreciate the point about Lloid being relatively easy to beat or avoid. It's something that I bring up often regarding the move's viability, and honestly I think it's used as a crutch for a lot of Villager mains.

 

[StarshipGroove]

I think nerfing the knockback growth on needles would be more impactful than nerfing her up special. If they nerf her recovery I imagine they'd just take away all invincibility until she disappeared.

True, but aerial needles to bouncing fish is such a cool setup. I'd hate to see it go.
Removing all kb growth from not fully charged needles could make the move less aggravating without alienating sheik players.

 

[meleebrawler]

No, the problem is that's a stupid niche.

You can say "heavy reads", but what that actually means is "be much better than the other player".

And if you're that much better than your opponent, you can win with anybody.

Well, a game where everyone's just a variant of Sheik/ZSS doesn't exactly invoke variety... and even then, people will STILL single out the best among them.

I heard stuff like this a lot in Squidboards weapon threads, complaints about weapons that lack bombs to cover long/short range engagements. But things like beacons and point sensors open up new ways to help that don't involve inking or splatting.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Well, a game where everyone's just a variant of Sheik/ZSS doesn't exactly invoke variety... and even then, people will STILL single out the best among them.

I heard stuff like this a lot in Squidboards weapon threads, complaints about weapons that lack bombs to cover long/short range engagements. But things like beacons and point sensors open up new ways to help that don't involve inking or splatting.

...Isn't Splatoon a team game? Combined arms, teammates and all that? New ways to help that don't involve inking or splatting would be totally useless if it were just played as a series of 1v1s.

This is seriously the worst analogy, nevermind that absolutely nobody is arguing that the game should consist of endless variants of Shiek and ZSS.

 

[Locke 06]

This is the kind of theorycraft that made me leave the Mega Man boards for several months. I just got tired of talking at a wall.

"Mega Man has a strong matchup against Luigi. Just spam pellets".
No, he nAirs/dAirs through pellets. He corners us quickly.

"Mega Man has a slight advantage on Falcon because we control the neutral and can gimp him."
NO, we do not control the neutral, and he gimps us just as easily as we gimp him.

"Shiek isn't as bad as Mario because...bAir works? Or something? We don't know!!!"

Seriously, this **** gets so old so fast, and here you are spreading misinformation AGAIN. This is the reason that the Mega boards still don't know their own MUs. It's ridiculous.

You clearly know nothing about the Shiek MU. Who have you fought? When was it? You seriously expect me to believe that you use uTilt to challenge her fAir? That's not even safe when you connect until mid percents. At close range, Shiek is so fast that she's bound to make a small mistake here and there, but it's nowhere near enough to let us compete. Mega will fall behind, and he will fall behind very very fast. If you have some kind of video of you dumping on a Shiek with credentials, I'd love to see it. Otherwise stop spreading misinformation about Mega Man and focus on Cloud.

I've played Cacogen, not nearly as much as I should. Watch me get slapped around for making a couple mistakes and then trapped at the ledge for 4 fthrow>BF>grenade windbox damage.

Disorient has a good Sheik, Kimidori and I played WiFi a couple times, and Shinkou's Sheik. Don't know the names? That's because you don't know my region and I couldn't really care less. Edit: oh, I guess Focus' Sheik is semi-notable. Lol.

I'm not spreading misinformation. Of course it's not safe at low% to utilt... Did I say that? Did I say I do that all the time? No.

You don't even know how I play the matchup, nor have I even stated how I play it. I just listed like... 3 reactionary things that can be done vs Sheik.

You're reading too hard into this stuff.

 

[meleebrawler]

...Isn't Splatoon a team game? Combined arms, teammates and all that? New ways to help that don't involve inking or splatting would be totally useless if it were just played as a series of 1v1s.

This is seriously the worst analogy, nevermind that absolutely nobody is arguing that the game should consist of endless variants of Shiek and ZSS.

1v1 isn't the only way to play Smash.

Nobody says they want a Sheik variant fest of course, but if your goal is to make everyone successful at high level 1v1s then you're inevitably going to go back to those two, because time and time again their archetype has proven to be the best. in 64, in Melee, in Brawl (even without all the game-breaking jank, he's still really good). All are combo machines (or at least as good of a combo machine you can be in Brawl) with extremely fast neutrals.

But then there's doubles, where the existence of a competent partner can open up all new strategies and opportunities for characters who struggled to do so in 1v1.

So just because a character archetype doesn't work as well in 1v1 doesn't make it stupid, it's there for the people who enjoy it and may have alternative uses.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm a wee bit late with this, but I typed this out earlier and just got back to it. Forgive me for interrupting the current conversation.

I agree with everything that's been said in these posts, and I'm not disputing them, but now I'm wondering: how do you nerf Meta Knight without dismantling his entire gameplan?

~ AN ESSAY IN DEFENCE OF META KNIGHT'S PUNISH GAME ~​

Unless I'm missing something (and it's highly possible that I am), MK's a dominant force because his punish game is so good. He doesn't lack in other departments, he's a good character overall, but it's his punish game that really makes him stand out. He just needs to win neutral once at the right percents and your stock's gone. Oversimplification but I'm trying to make it as to-the-point as possible. I don't think he's really dominant in any other aspects, except maybe being difficult to punish due to his absurd frame data, but that comes with the "death of a thousand cuts" style. Nothing else really strikes me as "good god, this is awful, we need to nerf this thing stat!" - at least not any more than fellow top-tiers.

The easy response is to gut, or at least tone down, his punish game: make it more difficult, it not outright impossible, to u-air -> u-air -> up-b to victory. Well, now his ace in the hole is gone, or at least severely weakened. You take the holy grail away, he's a decent character, but now he's missing the most vital piece of his gameplan. That can be mitigated by buffing him in other areas and making him better in other ways that don't invalidate low-tiers to the same extent - the old "redistribution" method of balance adjustments. But is it a case of it not being broken, and we the people trying to fix it?

The other option is to let MK keep the holy grail, but soften him up in other ways: decrease his speed, weaken his damage output even further, something that doesn't outright affect his best kill option. Unfortunately, I can't think of any nerfs you could really give him that would both decrease his dominance in the meta and ensure this option isn't compromised - that and nerfing everything except the holy grail would just encourage MK mains to work even harder to get the combo, since everything else is even more redundant compared to it. Then you've just got a character that is barely worth using except for a fatal gimmick that still lets him oppress the weaker folk to whatever extent he is capable of.

Is MK's punish game overpowered or unnecessary? We have examples that we can examine in contrast, namely Diddy and Luigi. Diddy and Luigi both had their strongest options toned down via balance patches, and both options were deemed too strong considering how easy they were to use. They were good characters that had a very easy-to-connect, often fatal or extremely damaging setup from a throw that, due to the aforementioned ease of use, were abused with impunity and caused quite a bit of stress for weaker characters. Furthermore, I think there are two vital things to remember here:

- Diddy and Luigi were not weak characters even without these options, and we can see that now: both characters are still considered viable in the current metagame, in spite of having their best kill confirms neutered quite drastically. They still retain notable and important advantages that keep them relevant, but now they have to rely on other options beyond the paint-by-numbers secret weapons they once wielded.

- MK's holy grail combo is significantly more difficult to use than Diddy's Hoo-Hah and Luigi's 'Nado, and it is something that MK mains are still trying to optimise. There is no easy way to connect it and no guaranteed secret formula that assures victory: it's a move that requires dedication and understanding to work consistently, and without it, I honestly do not think MK has any significant tools to dominate other significant matchups. While he is not defined by Shuttle Loop shenanigans, it is a very important part of his identity and it seems to be the thing people most often request be addressed about MK.

Does he invalidate weaker characters with this option? Absolutely. He even goes some way to invalidate certain options of stronger characters. But it is an option that is very difficult to connect, and even more difficult to use consistently. This is not really a case of Sheik's "I can dominate you in every state of the game with just my bare hands" or ZSS's "every option I have is a potential kill confirm": this is a character that has to work for a very precise combo to really get the results people claim he does.

The other important thing is that, while he does have very definite strengths, he is not immortal either: he does still have a disadvantage state and knowing how to evade the kill combo is a good way to counter MK. You know how to beat his best option, he has to work extra-hard to get it or have a miserable time trying. The burden is as much on the opponent to know how to beat it as it is on the MK to know how to use it.

I don't know, I'm honestly wondering what kind of character people perceive MK to be. I would not personally be adverse to his punish game being tweaked (I detest this matchup at times, and I'm sure others will empathise), but I don't know if that's necessary. Maybe hard work should not be rewarded with a stock every time the effort is successful, or maybe it's just MK's destiny to be a successful character by nature of his design. I've said it before, but MK is a very misunderstood character, and it seems there is inevitably controversy surrounding him and his meta - and it raises the question, "If the option is there, should it not be used to its greatest effect?" And that in itself raises the question, "Should the option exist in the first place?"

Bottom line is, MK's punish game is good. Very good. It is a vital part of who he is and it is something that most other characters would kill to have. And yet I can't help but wonder if he has much else to hold him up: his neutral doesn't seem to amount to much except setting up for Shuttle Loop kills, his advantage state is much the same...his disadvantage seems decent, and he's exceptionally difficult to punish, but are those traits really that dominant in themselves? Is MK just a vessel for a decisive punish game, or is there more to him than meets the eye?

I'd love to get somebody who knows what they're talking about to help me out with this. Is MK able to stand on his own two feet without his incredible punish game, or is that punish game the defining point of his entire identity?

EDIT: Fixed for formatting and added new thoughts.

 

[Sleek Media]

Well, a game where everyone's just a variant of Sheik/ZSS doesn't exactly invoke variety... and even then, people will STILL single out the best among them.

I heard stuff like this a lot in Squidboards weapon threads, complaints about weapons that lack bombs to cover long/short range engagements. But things like beacons and point sensors open up new ways to help that don't involve inking or splatting.

...Isn't Splatoon a team game? Combined arms, teammates and all that? New ways to help that don't involve inking or splatting would be totally useless if it were just played as a series of 1v1s.

This is seriously the worst analogy, nevermind that absolutely nobody is arguing that the game should consist of endless variants of Shiek and ZSS.

It's not a bad analogy. There are a few characters who are only okay in singles but great in doubles, and visa versa. Mega Man is an example of the former, and Rosa is the latter. As usual, Shiek is good at everything...

 

[Luigi player]

Alright, I get annoyed every single time I see this sort of thing and I think it's time to finally settle once and for all.

I have seen people claim that Shiek's weight and fast fall speed make her combo food. I have seen people claim that Rosalina's weight and floatiness makes her combo food. I know for a fact that superheavies are combo food due to being...y'know...heavies and not having much in the way of combo breakers or aerial mobility.

So, the actual issue. Is there a combination of weight and fall speed that people on this board won't claim makes a character combo food, or can we just stop using this claim once and for all?

Megamans case vs Sheik is pretty bad, trust me. I play a lot of characters and what happens to him is much worse than for many others.

Of course it's more likely for fast fallers and big targets to be combo'd easier. From my experience Rosa is hard to combo beacause of low fallspeed, but it might also be MU-dependant. With Megaman I had also never experienced being combo'd like that as well, though, it's likely only that bad against very few characters, maybe only vs Sheik and Mario like someone mentioned.

 

[Teshie U]

I'm willing to bet Sheik players overall are just better than Megaman players. Mr. R didn't 3-0 Scatt because the matchup is impossible. I've been playing this matchup since the game came out and I've only lost to sheiks that were better than myself.

 

[Sleek Media]

I've played Cacogen, not nearly as much as I should. Watch me get slapped around for making a couple mistakes and then trapped at the ledge for 4 fthrow>BF>grenade windbox damage.

Disorient has a good Sheik, Kimidori and I played WiFi a couple times, and Shinkou's Sheik. Don't know the names? That's because you don't know my region and I couldn't really care less. Edit: oh, I guess Focus' Sheik is semi-notable. Lol.

I'm not spreading misinformation. Of course it's not safe at low% to utilt... Did I say that? Did I say I do that all the time? No.

You don't even know how I play the matchup, nor have I even stated how I play it. I just listed like... 3 reactionary things that can be done vs Sheik.

You're reading too hard into this stuff.

So your gameplan is reacting...to Shiek. With Mega Man. Yeah, we're done here.

 

[BSP]

snip

Here's hoping for the upcoming patches. I want him to be a character that wins because you're better than the opponent, not because they don't know what's going on.

Edit: I'm with Sleek Media on the whole mega man vs Sheik discussion. It's been looking pretty bad from the blue bomber up to this point. She beats him in the range he's supposed to excel at lol.

 

[Locke 06]

So your gameplan is reacting...to Shiek. With Mega Man. Yeah, we're done here.

Yes. Because you know, that's how you play good smash.

You don't just throw out **** and hope it works. You poke, bait pokes, and punish. All of that is based on positioning and timing.

Edit: also. No? Reactionary tools are only tools. You still don't know how I play the matchup. Having proper reactionary responses is core to ANY matchup.

 

[Sleek Media]

Pac-Data

Pac is interesting because his meta appears to greatly exceed what he was actually designed to do, yet he is still outclassed by the high tiers. He's like Mega Man in a way; buffing the wrong move or property could easily shoot him into OP territory. How do you make him more competitive without making that extra-high level of Pac play unbearable for most of the cast? Giving a character reliable kill setups isn't a trivial buff.

BSP is totally right about him being a character that relies too much on the opponent having poor MU knowledge. Rosa is the same, but her play is at least a little more straightforward. I don't think it's bad that Pac requires weird setups and tricks to get rolling, but it is a problem that they can all be avoided so easily once you understand what his options are. Maybe a better grab is the answer...make standing around in shield less safe.

Yes. Because you know, that's how you play good smash.

You don't just throw out **** and hope it works. You poke, bait pokes, and punish. All of that is based on positioning and timing.

Edit: also. No? Reactionary tools are only tools. You still don't know how I play the matchup. Having proper reactionary responses is core to ANY matchup.

How long are you planning to hide behind vague crap about fundamentals and "you don't know me lel"? What has it been, four worthless posts now with nothing specific? Go ahead, tell us how you handle the MU. Can't wait to hear your solution for beating needle camp. Or maybe Shiek just inevitably gives us so many free punishes that it's a match LOL.

 

[C0rvus]

It is.

Mega man's BAir is a giant disjointed aerial with stupid good range, a great air-air.
Up tilt is f5 intangible and transcendent.
Dtilt is functionally disjointed and transcendent beating every non-disjointed ground button if the hitboxes come out during the same frame.
Usmash doesn't care about crossups, disjointed, and transcendent.
Uair is a transcendent projectile.

These are all tools Mega has. Because of their disjoint and/or transcendence, everyone is forced to respect these tools.

You can start from there. Or you can give up.

Great post. Mega Man's boxing options are very underrated. When I played him a good bit, I found that in matchups where doing regular Mega Man things was ineffective (Pikachu), you had to get in and respond with his quick normals and decent grab. I think it helped that I personally love the boxing game, but it's not something that Mega Man players often consider.

 

[Rikkhan]

Rosa's success comes from people not knowing the MU at all

People have said this since release and honestly I have my doubts, it's been a year and I still see top/high level players getting bopped by Rosalina it's also a pretty common matchup in tournaments, lack of knowledge seem doubtful.

 

[BSP]

Pac is interesting because his meta appears to greatly exceed what he was actually designed to do, yet he is still outclassed by the high tiers. He's like Mega Man in a way; buffing the wrong move or property could easily shoot him into OP territory. How do you make him more competitive without making that extra-high level of Pac play unbearable for most of the cast? Giving a character reliable kill setups isn't a trivial buff.

Give Pac-Jump horizontal knockback so that it gets people offstage. Then Pac-Man will actually get an advantaged state for beating shield. He lacks that right now, and he's going to lack cohesion until they do something about it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

1v1 isn't the only way to play Smash.

Nobody says they want a Sheik variant fest of course, but if your goal is to make everyone successful at high level 1v1s then you're inevitably going to go back to those two, because time and time again their archetype has proven to be the best. in 64, in Melee, in Brawl (even without all the game-breaking jank, he's still really good). All are combo machines (or at least as good of a combo machine you can be in Brawl) with extremely fast neutrals.

But then there's doubles, where the existence of a competent partner can open up all new strategies and opportunities for characters who struggled to do so in 1v1.

So just because a character archetype doesn't work as well in 1v1 doesn't make it stupid, it's there for the people who enjoy it and may have alternative uses.

That archetype is the one we know that works the best in a 1v1 because it's the only one that we're exposed to that works, and that has to do with the way sakurai balances the game. I'm pretty sure if he gave every character a workable frame skeleton and heavies the treatment they deserve to control the space around them, we would see more variety for all smash games, but alas, it's under the vision of sakurai and his choices lead into that outcome.

 

[bc1910]

People have said this since release and honestly I have my doubts, it's been a year and I still see top/high level players getting bopped by Rosalina it's also a pretty common matchup in tournaments, lack of knowledge seem doubtful.

This is why I think Rosalina's still good. It's clear that she's not just a fair-weather early game top tier newcomer like many predicted. Her unique gimmick might be new, but it's powerful. Rosalina has staying power.

What I do think is that she's not on the same level as Sheik or ZSS in terms of overall power. She does have abusable weakneses, and you do still see Rosalina players getting by on things that people should know how to avoid by now. Early Uair kills are the main offender here.

So I'm not saying the same thing people have been saying since release. I'm saying yes, Rosa IS very good. But she is not among the absolute elite.

I'm pretty sure Dabuz feels the same way about her, for what it's worth.

 

[Das Koopa]

Rosa seems to be propelled a lot by Dabuz in Nationals but you'll see an occasional person get Top 8/16 with one. It's a little ahead of ESAM, where ESAM seems to be the main guy keeping Pikachu in Nats. I think Rosa's third atm in terms of results.

But IDK about her being third overall.

 

[Locke 06]

How long are you planning to hide behind vague crap about fundamentals and "you don't know me lel"? What has it been, four worthless posts now with nothing specific? Go ahead, tell us how you handle the MU. Can't wait to hear your solution for beating needle camp. Or maybe Shiek just inevitably gives us so many free punishes that it's a match LOL.

because actually detailing my matchup thoughts takes time and are somewhat abstract.

I approach matchups by having a general rules. These are mine.

- Exist outside of the range where needles are unreactable or near the range where they are punishable, which happens to be near max SHFF FAir range.
- When she SH's, mess with her spacing unless you're already in the air in which case challenge.
- Control the ground with pellets, item MB, and grab game.
- When she gets in on shield, prep the defense.
- Reset more often than reversal when combo'd. (LF surprisingly good but encourages aerials and needles)
- A juggle is not incredibly rewarding, unless BF... and double jump... is baited. Edge guard is much more likely to result in favorable positioning.
- Rack up damage to unlock moves and make them options. Kill throws are huge. PUMMEL. TRADES IN YOUR FAVOR.
- Don't get grabbed or landing FAir'd at 0 back to stage. 0-40 combo>edge guard not fun.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's needle camping, which goes for almost all characters, but I'll specifically talk about mega.

"Beating needle camping" is breaking down needle camping into what it is:
Fully charged needle is different from uncharged needle. And uncharged needle slightly differs based on the number of needles Sheik has, since shooting an uncharged needle is the same animation despite the number of needles she actually throws.

FC NEEDLES
There's a range that exists where fully charged needles are reactable. They come out f11 and have to travel. Know this range where you can react. There's a range where they are punishable. Dash grab is furthest punish, usmash for kills. When Sheik is running away, she cannot turnaround/slide needles, she must b-reverse to needle. Move that punishable range that much closer and look for up tilt.

Similarly, there is a range where needling is free damage because you're not nearly close enough to mess with any of her spacing. This is where needles will test you and can lead to her having more control over spacing on hit due to pop up. Whether to charge more, or go in.

Most likely to keep fully charged needles for FH needle setups, but 10% is 10%. Especially at mid % to get to kill setups and break neutral. Watch for needle tendencies. Some sheiks like needles (Kimidori and Disorient), some Sheiks don't (Shinkou), and some Sheiks go in waves (Caco). Everyone likes needles at "nothing combos" %.

UNCHARGED NEEDLES - THE MOST ANNOYING
Uncharged needles are stupid. Coming out f5 from the charging animation, but charging animation takes 11f? Can be immediately acted out of due to bs charge move rules (not fully understood... but only attacks) Lucky this only does 2% (lol pellet). Being f16 instead of f11, just about always reactable, but flexibility in when thrown and how many thrown means you have to adjust ranges.

How likely is she to throw needles?
- Are you in the range where you can you react to an f5 projectile?
- Less needles = more punishable
- Less needles = less reward in terms of damage & frame advantage.
- More needles = closer to fully charged needles.
- Charge fakeout?
- Health of shield?
- Reward on hit?
- Are you in pellet range? - she's gonna throw it.
- Are you at a frame disadvantage? - lol you're at her mercy. Just shield when you get the chance.

Force stop charging through jump or any positive trade (LS, item mb, mb high %). Can bait needle throw using shield drop>shield. Charge fakeouts are require? it to be only the first needle charge (15f ish?), otherwise endlag on charging needles depends on either gathering full needles (?f??) or option out of needling (usually shield? in which case 18f or jump).

!Item MB discourages uncharged needle storm due to ability to projectile from shield and unfavorable trade.!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's needle camping.

Next time on inside how Locke approaches the Sheik matchup: How I effectively pellet the unpelletable.

Edit: Formatting. Comments/critiques welcome. Also filling in the gaps to my knowledge would be nice too. I don't know a whole lot about needle cancels except that they exist and there's usually endlag.

Edit2: Just some sidenotes: No, I didn't know her exact frame data off the top of my head. I know the range and how the frame data applies in practice, but I had to look it up. May look like theorycraft, but this is pretty much everything that goes through my head about needlecamping when I'm on the ground.

When I'm off the ground it's pretty standard... bait the throw with your jump, try to get down to shield. Ledge reset if frustrated that much or lost jump, but god that's so bad. Rush coil kinda is an option? but like... ew.

 

[Rikkhan]

bc1910 I agree I see Sheik and ZSS in a different level lets say S tier while Rosalina is Top of A tier, she is on the same level of Ryu and Sonic.

Dismantle 2: Dabuz murdering a Ness players so brutal... why do people still try to use ness against Rosa...

 

[Das Koopa]

bc1910
Dismantle 2: Dabuz murdering a Ness players so brutal... why do people still try to use ness against Rosa...

I've heard that the RosaLuma v. Ness matchup isn't as bad as people make it out to be but I don't see it when Dabuz swiftly 2-0s every Ness he encounters.

side note: Pac is an atrocious commentator. My ears hurt. I want RC back, dude was cool.

 

[meleebrawler]

That archetype is the one we know that works the best in a 1v1 because it's the only one that we're exposed to that works, and that has to do with the way sakurai balances the game. I'm pretty sure if he gave every character a workable frame skeleton and heavies the treatment they deserve to control the space around them, we would see more variety for all smash games, but alas, it's under the vision of sakurai and his choices lead into that outcome.

Not even the Project M dev team could make Bowser viable. And this is the game that, when it's not pandering to fanbases, strives to make every character as viable as possible in 1v1s.