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I don't think ZSS and Shiek are prominent enough to completely negate that many characters.
I'll admit that difficulty with shields may be a personal weakness, since FAir and BAir are safe on shield when spaced, axe does almost a half of a shield, and Lloid can help with pressuring shields or pressuring characters into shields. But even with his trapping tools I don't find it easy to get grabs (and from what I've seen of high-level play this seems consistent when people are better than me). The axe isn't exactly spammable, either, since it takes a little time to get it as an option, the move has bad end lag, and it isn't a permanent option. Slingshots aren't even totally reliable since short characters force Villager to forgo the autocancel to hit with them, giving him more lag for the opponent to punish.
Dthrow to easy follow ups into any aerial up until the early 100% for most of the cast. Mario's dthrow is not only one of the best set up throws in the game but one of the best positioning throws in the game too. Beyond this, dthrow to super coin punch is a true combo on most of the cast until the mid 70's.
Right, maybe I should had listed somebody else (rosa and sonic maybe?).
On the contrary IMO.
or represents their worst matchup, and often end up being a clear roadblock towards a top placing.is eternally irrelevant). But pretty much all characters would enjoy a boost in viability with a nerf on those two. As punishes become better I can only see this trend continuing over time.
Of the top/high tiers, Ryu/Wario probably have the worst throws when it comes to follow ups/positioning but the trade off is that they do a fair amount of damage. Sonic's throws are awesome for positioning and so are Rosalina's. Of the whole cast, I'd argue the worst throws go to Jigglypuff and Bowser Jr both for follow ups and positioning.
In theory yes every single character would become more viable, but on paper you wouldn't see much chance on a national level, because there still the others top tiers, the low tiers and some of the mid tiers are unviable because of the sheer numbers of bad matchups remember there are 15 to 20 who are considered high tier and top tier.On the contrary IMO.
For most characters, either
Those mid & low tiers would likely not win the whole thing (they'd definitely still have troubles winning-
, doesn't stop ,,,, and these characters are still advancing their metagame, thing that the low tiers and mid tiers cannot do because top players don't use them and probably never unless they are buffed to high tier status, is because of this that is better to buff everyone to atleast high-mid tier and then balance sheik and zss to reach high tier status, i think this is what the balancing team are doing, because like you say Sheik and ZZS are less priority that the other third of the cast, so they are buffing them to at least stand a chance sorry if yesterday i didn't explain myself correctly i was sleepy.
I was arguing that having that set play ability where the pace of the match is decided by your execution (implying that you've won the neutral already) is a bonus and not a necessity (though it really helps take a load off you). Mario is heavily read-based and has nothing that is complete nonsense that helps him absolutely dominate games, while characters like metaknight and Ryu dominate games solely on their punish game and then there's diddy Kong, sheik, pacman and villager whose heightened abilities in the neutral help command an oppressive sense of helplessness.
Note that Trela did this before Mii Swordfighter got a couple of notable buffs (and I guess a nerf to default side b). He also didn't just do well that one tournament like when he used Doc once. He was fairly dominant with all of his underrated mains, but I think Swordfighter was better than Mewtwo/Robin/Charizard back then and he dominated the TX scene with all of those characters too.
Wait I thought Megaman was already considered (questionably) viable. I mean ScATT has been doing some amazing stuff with the character, and I have seen increasing number of megaman users (stylesx2 comes to mind) that doing better and better in tournaments. As megaman's meta evolves even further, I don't see why he would not be considered viable. Sheik also basically invalidates luigi for the same reasons that she invalidates others, except luigi has it even worse because poor range, poor mobility, and no effective projectile game to keep out sheik (he has fireballs, but sheik has her needles), and luigi is still considered viable by many and even unquestionably solo-viable by some people (which at this point I think is completely unreasonable and false, but w/e). Also I have seen mario somewhat pose the same problems as sheik, plus he also has his up smash to always threaten megaman's landing. Would you be in favor of nerfing mario too?
With how long Ike's N-Air hits, and how the Ike can just FF into a crouching opponent
If the top tier technical characters are oppressing the lower ends of the stick, we need to adjust those top tiers regardless of who they are. And comparing sheik's strength to previous smash games is fruitless since the entire cast of viable characters in the previous games are all juiced up far beyond the strength of these characters. It's not comparable.
B- to be specific. That's because she is the best of the three when it comes to their 1111 sets.
Makes sense. As an Australian, we get default Miis with their whole moveset. I've never played a Mii Gunner but I have played against M who plays Mii Brawler with a 1122 set. He actually seems pretty viable to me. Not like high-tier but still pretty good.
You obviously main Miis, at least that's what it says on your profile, which would you say is the most viable?
140% and above are not good kill percents.
Sheik has needles that invalidate some characters' approaches, Sheik has a frame 5 F-air that stretches 'till the horizon... Toning down those, like I said, will not move her to the trash can. Nerfing those are completely fine because they aren't adding depths to the character, they're just plain dumb moves that shouldn't be there in the first place.
Thanks for the info!
is actually relatively scary to face, even in a default setting, because of Hurricane Kick and its crazy kill potential. I've NEVER seen a good play.. but it'd definitely be interesting. Do you know where any videos are of good sets? Furthermore, what gives Gunner the edge over Brawler?'d by Teshie Seems doesn't mean is lol, I would explain in more detail but still being awake at 5 am isn't necessarily something I want to keep doing right now.
Okay well I mean, you're a literal bullet hell. You have fair, for movement, charged shot setups, flame.Pillar for edge guarding, reflector to challenge reflectors, etc.Thanks for the info!
We have a Gunner in my region (our only Mii Fighter, so I mightn't have enough experience to accurately compare across Fighters), I think I'll agree with Mii Gunner sitting above the other Miis (in 1111). Like you said about your Brawler - Gunner is not high-tier, but pretty good. Gunner has decent projectiles in B, side-B, fair, and up-B shoots a shot downwards - it works with the fast fall speed. Uair has so many active frames that it's hard to airdodge, fsmash catches rolls and spot-dodges incredibly well.Makes sense. As an Australian, we get default Miis with their whole moveset. I've never played a Mii Gunner but I have played against M who plays Mii Brawler with a 1122 set. He actually seems pretty viable to me. Not like high-tier but still pretty good.
I feel like they should be legal because they add more variety to the game but that's for a different discussion
Unfortunately this is my big problem with Brawler. I'm wondering if this character is meant to just do everything into UP B, or did someone attempt to test 1111 Brawler and decided it was a threatening well balanced character. He feels almost like a mockery of Fox, where everything almost works but hilariously backfires.
Thing is, with these characters being mained by some of the highest level players out there, their metas are extremely advanced, so much so that they pretty much have a game plan for every matchup with lower tiers and know how to decimate them.
This argument can go both ways: The characters you listed are where they are because they're some of the characters that aren't completely invalidated by Sheik/ZSS (or not invalidated at all).These are the ones who will benefice more, not your random low tier mid tier character who now need to know more matchups because now
Nairo, Marss, Bengal, and Choco, just to name a few off the top of my head.ZSS isn't actually played all that much. There are very few prominent ZSS mains out there.
Exactly this.
That is one good ZSS per country... Mars is English right?
) and we also like to play out of her range with shuriken spam. Pikachu is truly not THAT bad, it's just frustrating to fight the tiny little guy when he has high mobility. 
as an example, she doesn't struggle with just those 2. She also has issues with and possibly (and some others).....none of which are uncommon really. So even if you nerf the top 2 enough that those 2 MUs aren't bad anymore, there's still several other characters that are major obstacles for you anyway. . Ike's problem was never that he had a poor design, just that he was horribly undertuned and had a bad hitbox or two at launch. Now that that's all fixed, he's considered viable. Unless you nerfed her into oblivion, fatties will always struggle with ZSS, because their large size and general sluggishness makes it easier to get the grab and hit them with Uair, not to mention that they're the only characters that don't have a chance of falling out of Boost Kick. There's really not much you can reasonably do about that. Like, you could give Robin Mario-level mobility, but just think about that for a moment.....think about how terrifying it might be to fight Robin if she had good mobility. So that's not happening and it'll always be something that holds her back a bit.
