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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Das Koopa

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I'm glad I found this topic. Been discussing comp. stuff on GameFAQs for a while, but good discussion is very sparse. Hello everyone :)

There's one topic that's been nagging me a bit that seems like a decent point of discussion

Is Doc actually as bad as Lists tend to imply? I've seen plenty throw him in and about Bottom 10, but I don't really see it. He's not high-tier at all due to his abysmal recovery, but his frame data seems perfectly fine (seems to mostly only very slightly lag behind Mario's, and Mario has silly stats)

If, say, he got a couple of recovery buffs (improved vertical distance on Tornado mash/Sheet stall/Jump Punch distance) couldn't he be edge-of-viable or even low-mid*?

*these terms kinda vary, but I'd call "low-mid" to be "just viable enough to Top 8 in the right hands"
 
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Y2Kay

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Doesn't Doc have the 3rd best frame data on his moves or something like that?

:150:
 

KeithTheGeek

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Doc has the same frame data Mario does (aside from something on his jabs iirc), and Mario has some damn good frame data. Having frame data THAT GOOD means you can't be too bad.

Besides, people have been respecting Doc a lot recently, if nothing else he's a good counter-pick character.
 

Das Koopa

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Doesn't Doc have the 3rd best frame data on his moves or something like that?

:150:
After double checking Kurogane, yeah, it kind of seems that way. A lot of his moves stay active for an extra frame but almost all of them deploy at the exact same frame Mario's do, so he has about the same frame data.

As far as I can tell, the differences are:

-Worse recovery.
-His attacks don't combo as well.

I think his low placement might be due to perception exaggeration. Before release, a popular opinion was that Doc would be "Better Mario" due to Melee. It became apparent really quickly that this wasn't the case, so when people started designing Tier Lists, perception was "He's worse than Mario, so he's pointless" and he gets unjustifiably ranked with negligible-tier characters like Zelda, Samus, etc.

You had a similar effect with Meta Knight where it went from "He's nerfed" to "He doesn't matter anymore" so he ends up ranking in the bottom half of the cast and only moved up when people picked him up and realized that he's still plenty good.
 

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Doc has good frame data and powerful moves but that doesn't make him magically solo viable. He still lacks mobility and recovery which are both incredibly important (arguably more so, actually).

Also he has some weird things like the fact his Nair is frame 3 but it's not a great combo breaker move because it starts off weak and gets stronger the longer the hitbox stays out, instead of the other way round like Mario's.

Good counterpick because his hard punishes and good CQC are very useful in some matchups but he has a lot of trouble with a fair few top tiers and other more viable characters.

---

Meta Knight doesn't really compare, he is a special case because of his Brawl stigma. Also he was absolute garbage in the 3DS days to be fair, he is one of the most buffed characters in this game.
 

Illuminose

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It's also probably why he got Checkmate in the first place. Not only does Robin have to grab with that bad range, but he also has to be nearly frame perfect to catch them with Uair afterward. He does it too fast, he gets JC Usmash. He does it too slow, he misses due to airdodge. He gets it perfectly, he gets his KO at 90. There's hardly any room for leeway, so getting it on the dot is heavily rewarded.
Just saying, all you have to do is do a quick claw or use a trigger to jump or just be fast w/ your jump button and the C Stick. You can make this way easier for yourself by using the C Stick (set to attack) for up air. There's no point in forcing yourself to have the right timing with the A button unless you just want to for some reason.

a nerf on Sheik's vanish i-frames is prolly the single most common sense nerf that would help. It's not even so much that you will be able to challenge it that much more, but you can force her to recover below the ledge and this makes Sheik's recovery a lot more punishable because you can consistently go for 2 frame punishes instead of being shut out by the above the ledge vanish recovery, forcing Sheik to mix up her recovery more and thus become somewhat exploitable in the process. If she has to recover below the ledge that means ZSS can dsmash -> down b, Sonic gets the free down-angled fsmash, Pika can get the thunder spike...really a lot of characters have good 2 frame punishes so I think this would help a lot. Being able to hit Sheik out of her recovery's start-up more frequently means you can actually challenge her recovery.

Nerfing her 50/50 is really overt imo, she can't kill without it and it's really one of the most overrated things about the char. If you air dodge at 90 and Sheik vanish kills you, that's really your fault. Realistically a vanish at that percent is greedy because up air will never kill you and Sheik won't want to go for it because she doesn't want a stale up air. There's a percentage range where it works and both up air and vanish will kill, but not even every character falls victim to that. People think Sheik can just grab you again and go for the 50/50 over and over if she misses it, but in actuality if she's staling down throw then the lowered hitstun allows you to jump out much more easily, especially as percents climb. The 50/50 is a good source of kill confirms, but it has limitations and workarounds especially with DI and different mixups you can use on the receiving end. Smart players already employ these tactics and make it a bit harder for Sheik. There's too many factors going into play as others have said.

I really just hope people don't continue to perpetuate the myth that Sheik is unbeatable and completely oppressive to everyone. The reason she's the best is that she doesn't lose any matchups, but I don't really see this as a problem so long as she isn't a completely dominant and oppressive. Sure, there are characters that would benefit if Sheik was nerfed. But these types of characters almost invariably lose to other top tiers as well, ZSS, Rosa, and Mario being the biggest offenders as gatekeepers (idt Mario is top 5 but he has more gatekeeper mus than Pika or Ryu). All top tiers lose 55-45 or go even (which are fine matchups) and there's more than enough characters overall that can contend in the MU vs Sheik. Realistically the list of characters that Sheik 'destroys' is smaller than people would like to think and proven this way in practice.
 

Das Koopa

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Right. but I'm more arguing that Doc isn't Bottom 10. If I rank tiers like this;

-God (No characters really qualify in Smash 4 for this, imo.)
-Top
-High
-Upper/Upper Mid
-Mid/Lower Mid
<Nonviable Border>
-Low
-Bottom
-Negligible

...Then my argument is that Doc could feasibly be in and around the top of "Low".

Also, thanks for the correction on Meta Knight. I didn't know he had gotten so many buffs.
 

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Doc has good frame data and powerful moves but that doesn't make him magically solo viable. He still lacks mobility and recovery which are both incredibly important (arguably more so, actually).

Also he has some weird things like the fact his Nair is frame 3 but it's not a great combo breaker move because it starts off weak and gets stronger the longer the hitbox stays out, instead of the other way round like Mario's.

Good counterpick because his hard punishes and good CQC are very useful in some matchups but he has a lot of trouble with a fair few top tiers and other more viable characters.

---

Meta Knight doesn't really compare, he is a special case because of his Brawl stigma. Also he was absolute garbage in the 3DS days to be fair, he is one of the most buffed characters in this game.
I was gonna say something and then you said it for me. Hivemind hivemind.

But yeah Das Koopa Das Koopa the perception on Doc has changed quite a bit ever since MLG. A lot of people looked into him and we came to a pretty solid "counterpick" conclusion, heh. Also nobody's ever said he's bottom 10 following MLG either to my knowledge, mostly cause a lot of the Doc misinformation stopped flowing IIRC. Twas a nice time.
 
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Das Koopa

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I was gonna say something and then you said it for me. Hivemind hivemind.

But yeah Das Koopa Das Koopa the perception on Doc has changed quite a bit ever since MLG. A lot of people looked into him and we came to a pretty solid "counterpick" conclusion, heh. Also nobody's ever said he's bottom 10 following MLG either to my knowledge, mostly cause a lot of the Doc misinformation stopped flowing IIRC. Twas a nice time.
Where I discussed things (GFAQSland) it came up some, but yeah, thanks for the clarifications.
 
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NachoOfCheese

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The only time I've used Doc as an actual Counterpick charcter is vs Fox. That's really the only matchup I can think of that would qualify him as a "counterpick" character.
 

Das Koopa

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Nairo kinda demolished ESAM, though. Is Doc actually a good CP against Pikachu or was that ESAM getting blindsided on matchup knowledge?
 

Baby_Sneak

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Definitely blindsided. What kind of character do you think doc is to actually have qualities that pika struggles against specifically? That man has a super balanced move set just like his plumber version, only difference is in overall power, speed and recovery.
 

Ffamran

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Her main weakness is that all her moves need "set-up" because her double jump is so high and she does not have a single rising SH aerial that hits grounded opponents.
Now I'm really curious... What would happen if there was a character who had a high overall jump around say... Greninja's height, but when hopping and maybe even jumping, their jump was only as high as low jumpers like Dr. Mario, Ike, Roy, and Wolf. Basically, low jump, but high double jump. With the right mind of aerials, they would be terrifying.

I dunno... Zelda with a frame 4 jumpsquat now gets access to some really good OOS options, namely frame 7 bair and frame 10 fair, to add to her Up-B OOS. Frame 10 fair may not sound like much, but that's actually as fast as her standing grab (unfortunately). Those two frames make a pretty significant difference.
Doesn't she have a frame 6 Bair and frame 9 Fair? With a frame 4 jump, her Bair would be frame 10 and Fair would be frame 13.
 
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Das Koopa

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Definitely blindsided. What kind of character do you think doc is to actually have qualities that pika struggles against specifically? That man has a super balanced move set just like his plumber version, only difference is in overall power, speed and recovery.
I was asking - I don't know much about Pikachu.
 

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Doc isn't a good counterpick character, his tools just happen to flow well into each other against Fox which is the only matchup where there's a significant difference between Doc and Mario imo.

:059:
 

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If we are talking worst grab in the game as far as straight up range/frame data, it's Villager (worst), then Pacman, then Samus (all are terrible).
If we are talking awfulness of grab + grab reward, Samus is the worst lol...

If you get dthrown by Samus and do no DI, prepare for 45 damage at low percents or 25 damage combos into the 100% range. If you get dthrown by Samus and DI away, prepare for... Um. It's true that Samus can get true combos (the same 45 damage ones) on characters even if they DI away (think Falcon, running to follow DI before jumping), but we are talking about a 1/60 of a second opening. I've heard of one Samus player who can consistently do it, but there isn't anyway that someone can reasonably call this a "combo throw". Maybe eventually we will get good at it.

That's my pro tip for anyone with a Samus they play at locals, DI away and then eventually the Samus will just start using their miserable f/b/uthrows instead. 9 damage throws that don't kill and don't combo is the reward for a horrible grab. And if you are someone who likes to complain about Samus by listing things she's actually good at, then you should be mentioning her grab game. It's her biggest weakness for sure.

Luckily for Samus, dash attack combos you can't do much about, and she has other stuff going for her.

Consider, though, that Samus is possibly the all-around best character at BREAKING shields (even if most of it hinges on charge shot) instead. She has actual setups for doing so instead of relying on a hard read like so many do. Only characters that come close are Ryu with shakunetsu and collarbone breaker plus high shieldstun aerials, and (Hyper) Buster Shulk with perfect MALLC.

She has many tools for getting the opponent's shield down: bombs, missiles, crossup dash attacks, whittling with zair, spaced utilts/dtilts, bair... manage your charge shot carefully, and your opponent will be much more scared to shield than they normally are, even with Samus's weaker than average throw game (which mainly serves as a rare mixup), leading to more landed dash attacks and whatnot.

I can sort of understand her throws not sending the opponents far on account of her game being precise and unrelenting pressure, compared to Mewtwo who wants his enemies out of arm's reach whenever possible. You have dthrow for minor combos but even fthrow and bthrow require the opponent to move in order to avoid further pressure... and if they do (or get put offstage), Samus gets charging time.
 

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I dunno... Zelda with a frame 4 jumpsquat now gets access to some really good OOS options, namely frame 7 bair and frame 10 fair, to add to her Up-B OOS. Frame 10 fair may not sound like much, but that's actually as fast as her standing grab (unfortunately). Those two frames make a pretty significant difference.
Her fair and bair are trash OoS unless you're fighting like, Ganondorf or something huge.
 

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I just watched John Numbers totally negate an Ike n-air combo starter with WFT's low profile crouch, which reminded me of another match (it might have been Nairo on his personal stream) where a Sheik ducked under Ryu's n-air. Seems like crouching could really stand out now for some of the cast, when shielding was almost obsoleting it prior to the shieldstun update.
 

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Now I'm really curious... What would happen if there was a character who had a high overall jump around say... Greninja's height, but when hopping and maybe even jumping, their jump was only as high as low jumpers like Dr. Mario, Ike, Roy, and Wolf. Basically, low jump, but high double jump. With the right mind of aerials, they would be terrifying.
I wanted to write short hop. Sorry on that
 

KuroganeHammer

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After double checking Kurogane, yeah, it kind of seems that way. A lot of his moves stay active for an extra frame but almost all of them deploy at the exact same frame Mario's do, so he has about the same frame data.

As far as I can tell, the differences are:

-Worse recovery.
-His attacks don't combo as well.
Check his mobility stats (y)
 

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And Cassius' Bowser defeats Numbers after a GF reset. This character is scary now!
 

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After double checking Kurogane, yeah, it kind of seems that way. A lot of his moves stay active for an extra frame but almost all of them deploy at the exact same frame Mario's do, so he has about the same frame data.

As far as I can tell, the differences are:

-Worse recovery.
-His attacks don't combo as well.
From what I know Dr.Mario has a very generous kill combo on fastfallers starting around 75%. D-throw to fair is a true combo that works for a rather significant range of percents (compared to other kill setups and combos) and can be achieved regardless of DI, as long as you read the opponent's DI correctly. This is why I think Doc is actually a pretty good counterpick against the top tiers because many top tiers are both light and fastfallers (i.e. sheik, fox, diddy kong, MK, and sort of pikachu), and having a working kill setup is really big in the meta right now. Of course this also flows well with Doc's above average frame data and greater power on all of his attacks (compared to mario).
In the case of nairo vs. ESAM, I think it was heavily due to matchup unfamiliarity (for example: ESAM did not respect Doc's up smash and up-b enough and kept getting hit by one OOS whenever ESAM spaced attacks wrongly on shield. Also I don't think ESAM knew about Doc's kill setup from d-throw, so he was not really able to react properly everytime Nairo pulled one off).

Of course Mario also has d-throw>fair true combo kill setup, but it has a smaller % range where it works and it pretty much gets ruined by just DIing away.
You had a similar effect with Meta Knight where it went from "He's nerfed" to "He doesn't matter anymore" so he ends up ranking in the bottom half of the cast and only moved up when people picked him up and realized that he's still plenty good.
For meta knight, people thought he sucked because 1) he basically became a completely different character with his transition from brawl to smash 4, 2) his animations vs hitbox placements did not match up properly for basically all of his moves that really screwed up his combo potential and gameplay in general, which actually made some of his moveset nonfunctional at times (i.e. uair), and 3) he got some very significant ike-level buffs on some of his most-used aerials (nair, uair, dair), and nintendo decided actually fix his mismatching animation vs hitbox placement issues.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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How bad was MKs mismatch animation and hitboxes issues, were they REALLY that bad or something? I'd like visual proof to get a better understanding.
Also, stupid question, but what does IIRC mean?
 

Wintermelon43

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How bad was MKs mismatch animation and hitboxes issues, were they REALLY that bad or something? I'd like visual proof to get a better understanding.
Also, stupid question, but what does IIRC mean?
If I Remember/Recall Correctly
 
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TurboLink

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How bad was MKs mismatch animation and hitboxes issues, were they REALLY that bad or something? I'd like visual proof to get a better understanding.
Also, stupid question, but what does IIRC mean?

That's all I have.
 

Das Koopa

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And Cassius' Bowser defeats Numbers after a GF reset. This character is scary now!
Hmm. I guessed Bowser would stay low/bottom. Word that goes round' says that Bowser doesn't have good landing or approach options, could Bowser's initial success be matchup unfamiliarity that quells after time goes on? AFAIK Donkey Kong became (arguably) viable with the Ding Dong so maybe Bowser was a sleeper that just needed a good tool.
 

bc1910

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Bowser still doesn't have good landing or approach options. His throw game has just been buffed considerably.

He still struggles with top/high tiers who severely out-neutral him and abuse his disadvantage state. Sheik, Diddy, ZSS and Sonic are especially notable. Wii Fit is better than a lot of people think but she's not THAT good. She can't put a stop to Bowser using his new toy against her in the same way as better characters.

That said I'm sure Cassius beat several high/top tiers on the way to grands. Bowser's definitely scary now, we'll just have to wait to see how scary.
 

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Hmm. I guessed Bowser would stay low/bottom. Word that goes round' says that Bowser doesn't have good landing or approach options, could Bowser's initial success be matchup unfamiliarity that quells after time goes on? AFAIK Donkey Kong became (arguably) viable with the Ding Dong so maybe Bowser was a sleeper that just needed a good tool.
Well Bowser became a lot better because he now has very good punish opportunities for mistakes that don't rely on reads or slow/laggy one-hit moves. Also bowser now has actual opportunities to initiate combos and dish out a lot of damage with the new up-throw (combos and puts opponents in a positional disadvantage) and his very good dash grab. Bowser still has a terrible neutral and disadvantaged state that can get abused heavily, and he really cannot space attacks on opponent's shield safely, but people unfamiliar with the matchup will get bopped by a good bowser now because bowser now has proper punishes for mistakes.
 

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Character analysis time: what requirements does a character need for it to be fundamentally solid? As in having the options to combat every situation?
 

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You absolutely do not want Robin to have a frame 4 jumpsquat.

Unless you think you'd enjoy getting smacked by Bairs, Fairs, Uairs, better Arcfire setups and easier Checkmates all day.
What does checkmate mean specifically?

IMO no character should have more that 6 frames of jumpsquat. Adding 7 frames to every air maneuver is too much (Link has a frame 7 js too). It doesn't seem like much but it's that many frames longer for throw>aerial combos and OoS options. Often the difference between a true combo and escapable chain.
 

ARGHETH

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What does checkmate mean specifically?

IMO no character should have more that 6 frames of jumpsquat. Adding 7 frames to every air maneuver is too much (Link has a frame 7 js too). It doesn't seem like much but it's that many frames longer for throw>aerial combos and OoS options. Often the difference between a true combo and escapable chain.
It's Robin's Dthrow --> Uair, which only works at specific percents (usually kill %s, thank goodness).
 
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Vipermoon

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What does checkmate mean specifically?

IMO no character should have more that 6 frames of jumpsquat. Adding 7 frames to every air maneuver is too much (Link has a frame 7 js too). It doesn't seem like much but it's that many frames longer for throw>aerial combos and OoS options. Often the difference between a true combo and escapable chain.
I get it. But the point is to discourage too much jumping from some characters. The intention of a character's design is at play.

Edit: also this affects short hop/full hop timings so more characters feel different. Sakurai always talks about how the feel of a character is crucial.
 
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FSLink

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Nairo kinda demolished ESAM, though. Is Doc actually a good CP against Pikachu or was that ESAM getting blindsided on matchup knowledge?
Pikachu can definitely win the matchup if he can manage to gimp Dr. Mario, but a good Mario or Dr. Mario is just a pain to deal with as Pikachu, you have to play much more calculated otherwise you end up quick attacking to usmashes. Having to deal with the cape nnd usmash (and FLUDD vs Mario) also makes Pikachu's approaches much more risky.

Dr. Mario having a kill setup on Pikachu also hurts quite a bit.
 

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Character analysis time: what requirements does a character need for it to be fundamentally solid? As in having the options to combat every situation?

1. Multiple recovery options or at least one really dependable one.
2. Good landing options.
3. Good approach options (both on the ground and air) and/or options that force most characters to approach.
4. Multiple, dependable kill options.
5. Set up throws or throws that are good for positioning.
6. Good keep away options (aka OH GOD, GET OFF ME moves)
7. Good offstage options both when it comes to edgeguarding and returning to the stage.
8. Trumps (aka early kill options and/or shield breakers/disablers) are a bonus.
9. Multifunctional and/or "pepper shaker" (low damage/low knockback) projectiles are a bonus.
10. Good ledge get up options are a bonus.
 

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Character analysis time: what requirements does a character need for it to be fundamentally solid? As in having the options to combat every situation?
Use Dedede as a measure and just be the opposite Kappa

But seriously:

-Have some sort of air game. E.g. don't be Little Mac. But you need good aerials for offstage and on-stage gameplay, otherwise you're at a disadvantage.
-Have a decent recovery. I guess Ness is an exception, but it's a general rule.
-Have good decent/good frame data.
-Have good mobility to accommodate your playstyle. You need good aerial mobility if you're an aerial fighter, etc.
-Have a good moveset to accommodate your attributes. If you're brawl focused, your moves need to have decent range and you need combos, vs. projectile/camp focused characters who need a good toolset to evade and efficiently hit.
-Have a solid neutral game so you can keep things together.

A lot of things depend on weight/size/height/floatiness/etc. Like, heavyweights historically have problems because sluggishness=weakness machine and they're easy to combo.
 
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Geez lol, all those requirements you guys listed. All i thought of was
a versatile set of normals that can cover space all around you
a decent recovery at least
powerful and reliable smashes (or any move that gives you the proper % for a read). Having multiple ways to reliably deal damage ala sheik, Luigi, metaknight, Ryu, and such are a bonus imo. Mario is top tier and he only has Dthrow Utilt combos (does a lot of damage, but what about after that?).
 

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I just watched John Numbers totally negate an Ike n-air combo starter with WFT's low profile crouch, which reminded me of another match (it might have been Nairo on his personal stream) where a Sheik ducked under Ryu's n-air. Seems like crouching could really stand out now for some of the cast, when shielding was almost obsoleting it prior to the shieldstun update.
I've (:4diddy:) been playing Waveguider (:4wiifit:) a bit recently and he's started crouching more often as it beats monkey flip (unless it's perfectly spaced and thus reactable) and short hop fair, he can dash into a punish immediately afterwards either of these moves. There's obviously some counterplay to this (ie. DON'T JUMP because grab+dtilt are good, alternatively full hop fair [whiffs but not immediately punishable] or tomahawk grabs [loses to whatever grabs lose to], landing aerials [lose to shield] etc.) but the fact is that crouching is strictly better than shielding against at least 3 of my characters best tools, and thus is a pretty good mixup option.

Geez lol, all those requirements you guys listed. All i thought of was
a versatile set of normals that can cover space all around you
a decent recovery at least
powerful and reliable smashes (or any move that gives you the proper % for a read). Having multiple ways to reliably deal damage ala sheik, Luigi, metaknight, Ryu, and such are a bonus imo. Mario is top tier and he only has Dthrow Utilt combos (does a lot of damage, but what about after that?).
Are you forgetting all the times we've seen Mario get a kill off an uair chain?
 

Baby_Sneak

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I've (:4diddy:) been playing Waveguider (:4wiifit:) a bit recently and he's started crouching more often as it beats monkey flip (unless it's perfectly spaced and thus reactable) and short hop fair, he can dash into a punish immediately afterwards either of these moves. There's obviously some counterplay to this (ie. DON'T JUMP because grab+dtilt are good, alternatively full hop fair [whiffs but not immediately punishable] or tomahawk grabs [loses to whatever grabs lose to], landing aerials [lose to shield] etc.) but the fact is that crouching is strictly better than shielding against at least 3 of my characters best tools, and thus is a pretty good mixup option.



Are you forgetting all the times we've seen Mario get a kill off an uair chain?
Are those true kill confirms that can be repeatedly done ala ZSS? And we know Mario struggles to kill.
 

S_B

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Nerfing :4sheik: and :4zss: wouldn't make low tiers viable
Sure it would.

The reason many lower tiers are where they are is because ZSS and Sheik so directly invalidate a sizable number of characters.

The distance between the other characters you listed and the other lower tiers is MUCH closer than the distance between the lower tiers and Sheik/ZSS. Nerfing them would effectively be buffing nearly every other character in the game.
 
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