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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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AnEventHorizon

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While people are talking about Cloud's design a bit, I figure its as good a time as any to share my view of sword characters.

The way I see it, Lucina can be seen as the base swordsman for the game. Basic swordsman traits - disjoint, no projectile, etc etc. Nothing special. Every other swordsman design could be looked at as a variation upon this base swordsman.

Link/ Toon Link gives up speed (in body and frame data) for power and projectiles. Similar for Robin and Swordfighter, though its just in body for them (run speed, jumpsquat etc).

Ike gives up speed for more range and power. Similar for Dedede.

Metaknight gives up range for sheer speed.

Shulk gives up speed in frame data for sheer range.

The Pits give up some range and some power for a projectile.

Marth and Roy's tipper mechanics explain themselves.

Cloud's design seems quite different since he doesn't follow this formula of speed for range, speed for power, speed for projectile etc. he seems to gain power, projectile and range (without loss of speed) in exchange for recovery and grabs (that's all I can tell). Like the Pits, he's the only projectile swordsman without a frame 7 jumpsquat, but he has both range and power on them.

Sure, design wise Marth can possibly kill earlier with tippers than Cloud, but Cloud just kind of looks strange to me while Lucina exists in the game. He kind of borked my view of sword character strength/weakness design.
 

Charoite

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Nerfing :4sheik: and :4zss: wouldn't make low tiers viable, even less make top players use them to compete in nationals, what will you see in top 8 or top 16 is more :4ryu:,:4sonic:,:rosalina:,:4fox:,:4metaknight:,:4mario: ,:4diddy:,:4pikachu:and maybe :4cloud:,:4ness:,:4rob:,:4greninja:,:4myfriends:, who will be now even more viable, remember that there still the others high tier characters that still bodies the low tiers not to the same degree, but is naive to think that nerfing these 2, will make a great difference on a national level, maybe in regionals.
 
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Illuminose

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Top Tiers and the higher High Tiers in this game have either ridiculous killpower, overwhelming neutral game, or reliable kill setups.
No matter how much of a weakness they have, these attributes are just too good and make up for anything.

Pits lacks either of these, so I think they might be high tier at best, like Villager/Falcon tier.
:196:
Wait, are there really still people who don't think Villager is top tier?

REALLY?

The character is oozing top tier tools and matchup spread, and he has results. You do not consistently win tournaments in a tough region with a character that is not top tier (which is the level of results Ranai has achieved). Maybe we need to see more come Genesis, but I think we already have enough info. His grab isn't great, but it hardly matters because he is so good at conditioning people to shield with lloid and slingshot that it hardly even matters. Watch Ranai play and you will see exactly what I mean. Villager's keep away game is legit. He is amazing at responding to short hop pressure, covering ground-based neutrals, and responding quickly to aggression in general with the combo of nair oos and slingshot. On his own Villager is amazing at creating his own pressure in neutral with adaptable playstyles, able to switch between mid-range zoning and using his lloid to help close the distance and approach. Has great short hop pressure because of the slingshot and great mixup options like tomahawk jab. When he gets grabs from conditioning, he's rewarded with solid grab combos/strings.

Villager also has perhaps the best ledge and off-stage game period. Between options like neutral air, slingshot, down air, and ledge bowling ball to edgeguard combined with incredible ledge traps, Villager is insanely good at putting the hurt on characters off-stage. This is augmented by his recovery and excellent ledge options to cover his getup. Villager is also proficient at juggling with an up air that has soooooo many active frames and a solid up smash as well. Kill options? Bowling ball kills off a read at stupid early percents and is pretty much unpunishable. Back throw is really strong. Axe is very good for killing and can be confirmed into out of jab 1. Up smash is a solid kill move. Back air is good for killing. 3 turnip up air is good for killing. Ledge traps w/ tree and up tilt kill solidly. Villager has tons of options to secure a KO and can sometimes seal stocks very early, resulting in an almost insurmountable lead given Villager's ability to abuse reckless attempts to gain back a lead and zoning capabilities in general.

As for matchups...it's been said that Villager potentially beats Zero Suit Samus, which is pretty significant in and of itself. Then he does legitimately fine against Sheik (MU is like 55-45 Sheik favor), goes even with Sonic, and really just goes about even with most of the top tiers, excluding Rosalina which from my understanding is still not even that bad for Villager (not worse than 60-40 in Rosa's favor). This is a top tier matchup spread. I think Villager is clearly top 10 and idk why this perception that Villager isn't "that good" still exists. Villager doesn't lack flaws, but I think the pros clearly outweigh the cons.
 
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LancerStaff

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I know we like to talk about how the Pits have no extreme strengths or weaknesses which somehow or another is supposed to be a "problem," but Earth did just win that tournament over Ranai. If Ranai is a better player (and a lot of people think he is), and Pit is able to beat him and everyone else, I would argue that this puts Pit (and Dark Pit) into viable territory as well, with few doubters.
Actually haven't sat down and watched that set yet but I'm pretty confident Pit wins the matchup. Arrows are a really unique tool that shouldn't be underrated...

Top Tiers and the higher High Tiers in this game have either ridiculous killpower, overwhelming neutral game, or reliable kill setups.
No matter how much of a weakness they have, these attributes are just too good and make up for anything.

Pits lacks either of these, so I think they might be high tier at best, like Villager/Falcon tier.
:196:
Well no, they don't really have crazy kill power, a godly neutral game or kill setups out the wazoo. Buuuut they have a lot of each in a fairly balanced way. There's fairly consistent setups out of Nair for example, and that's -5 on shield and can't be perfect shielded. Yes, you get the AC if you do it right. And then rising Dair spike > missed tech > falling Uair > U/Fsmash is a thing. Although take with a grain of salt because we're a small group and testing these things can be cumbersome...

Heck, might of found a decent way to kill fast fallers out of a grab off the top below 100%. That one definitely needs more work though.

The Pits give up some range and some power for a projectile.
Hate to be "that guy," but seeing as I already am... They have highly similar range to Marth and co. already. Sure, Nair and Dsmash have less range, but the former is ridiculously fast all around and the later is one of the best Dsmashes in the game. Then the Pits have more range on Ftilt and Fsmash.
 

Kofu

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Wait, are there really still people who don't think Villager is top tier?

REALLY?

The character is oozing top tier tools and matchup spread, and he has results. You do not consistently win tournaments in a tough region with a character that is not top tier (which is the level of results Ranai has achieved). Maybe we need to see more come Genesis, but I think we already have enough info. His grab isn't great, but it hardly matters because he is so good at conditioning people to shield with lloid and slingshot that it hardly even matters. Watch Ranai play and you will see exactly what I mean. Villager's keep away game is legit. He is amazing at responding to short hop pressure, covering ground-based neutrals, and responding quickly to aggression in general with the combo of nair oos and slingshot. On his own Villager is amazing at creating his own pressure in neutral with adaptable playstyles, able to switch between mid-range zoning and using his lloid to help close the distance and approach. Has great short hop pressure because of the slingshot and great mixup options like tomahawk jab. When he gets grabs from conditioning, he's rewarded with solid grab combos/strings.

Villager also has perhaps the best ledge and off-stage game period. Between options like neutral air, slingshot, down air, and ledge bowling ball to edgeguard combined with incredible ledge traps, Villager is insanely good at putting the hurt on characters off-stage. This is augmented by his recovery and excellent ledge options to cover his getup. Villager is also proficient at juggling with an up air that has soooooo many active frames and a solid up smash as well. Kill options? Bowling ball kills off a read at stupid early percents and is pretty much unpunishable. Back throw is really strong. Axe is very good for killing and can be confirmed into out of jab 1. Up smash is a solid kill move. Back air is good for killing. 3 turnip up air is good for killing. Ledge traps w/ tree and up tilt kill solidly. Villager has tons of options to secure a KO and can sometimes seal stocks very early, resulting in an almost insurmountable lead given Villager's ability to abuse reckless attempts to gain back a lead and zoning capabilities in general.

As for matchups...it's been said that Villager potentially beats Zero Suit Samus, which is pretty significant in and of itself. Then he does legitimately fine against Sheik (MU is like 55-45 Sheik favor), goes even with Sonic, and really just goes about even with most of the top tiers, excluding Rosalina which from my understanding is still not even that bad for Villager (not worse than 60-40 in Rosa's favor). This is a top tier matchup spread. I think Villager is clearly top 10 and idk why this perception that Villager isn't "that good" still exists. Villager doesn't lack flaws, but I think the pros clearly outweigh the cons.
Villager struggles heavily with rushdown characters and kind of loses to shield. His grab is THE worst in the game IMO, unimpressive range for a frame 15 grab with 40 frames of endlag. Bowser's grab seems to have comparable range and a definitively better reward now (Villager's grab reward is decent but nothing exceptional until BThrow kills, though DThrow combos are okay). Kill options are a LOT harder to land in a real match outside of gimping but he WILL eventually kill you. His mobility is also bad, not quite Robin level, but it's not far off with average air speed and bottom 5 run speed with mediocre options out of dash (both dash grab and dash attack are slow which means he either has to use a special or aerial for offense, and only the axe is fast enough to be usable unless you have a good pocketed projectile).

A good number of his moves are projectiles (dash attack, FAir, BAir, FSmash, USmash, Lloid) and all but USmash can be reflected at him for painful results. It's often avoidable but Villager players need to be wary against characters with reflectors. The bigger issue is that they can all be clanked; sex kick aerials are particular offenders.

Long story short, he has too many weaknesses to be a top tier (and Sheik is probably 4:6, his frame 3 NAir and Lloid blocking needles are the only things keeping it from being a shutout IMO). He's good and can be hard to get through for a lot of low tiers but certainly not infallible.

His edge guarding game is top-notch, though, you're right there.
 

Dre89

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Wut
Just because it's disjointed doesn't mean it's better, it comes out slower and has more endlag, only her running grab is good and that's mostly because she lunges further than falcon does.

Yea no.
Do you really want to have to deal with ZZS using empty hop grabs at the rate Sheik does and dash grabs at the rate Falcon does? Plus shieldgrabbing is still very important as there's lots of stuff that's more safe on ZSS's shield because of how slow her grab is (she has up-b OoS but that's more committal and they fall out depending on positioning and what not)

Again, wut
Just because tether grabs have some strengths (range + disjointed) doesn't mean their slow speed and ridiculous endlag isn't a weakness, it definitely is, and you see top ZSS's get heavily punished all the time from missing grabs. If she had a normal grab any punish would be far less severe and she'd be able to fish for grabs way harder.

Like tether grabs are arguably better in a metagame dominated by characters like marth since ZSS can shieldgrab stuff like landing fair where other characters can't, but having a normal grab is better in basically every other matchup. Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, etc. would all be far worse off with a tether grab, and ZSS would be the best character in the game with a normal grab (especially since you'd be giving her a better dash grab than falcon lmao).
It's not just the range that makes it good. It's how many options it beats. It beats shields, hitboxes that don't hit ZSS, rolls and spotdodges that aren't close to frame perfect at point blank (so it'll beat spotdodge too most of the time). It'll even catch jumps if they're not early enough. It also has a ton of active frames. Most other tethers don't beat so many options and have as many active frames.


She'd only be better if she got a really good dashgrab like Falcon's. If she just had an average or bad dashgrab she'd be a lot worse, because then she couldn't really get grabs aggressively. Her current grab is better for grabbing landings and if they do anything other than jump or run away.
 
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Vipermoon

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Sure, design wise Marth can possibly kill earlier with tippers than Cloud, but Cloud just kind of looks strange to me while Lucina exists in the game. He kind of borked my view of sword character strength/weakness design.
And this is my exact problem with Cloud's design. He shuts down other swordsmans' reasons of existance. And a frame 4 jumpsquat on a character with 100 weight and a disjoint is inexcusable. Frame 5 I'd accept.
 

AnEventHorizon

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Actually haven't sat down and watched that set yet but I'm pretty confident Pit wins the matchup. Arrows are a really unique tool that shouldn't be underrated...



Well no, they don't really have crazy kill power, a godly neutral game or kill setups out the wazoo. Buuuut they have a lot of each in a fairly balanced way. There's fairly consistent setups out of Nair for example, and that's -5 on shield an



Hate to be "that guy," but seeing as I already am... They have highly similar range to Marth and co. already. Sure, Nair and Dsmash have less range, but the former is ridiculously fast all around and the later is one of the best Dsmashes in the game. Then the Pits have more range on Ftilt and Fsmash.
Pit gained a lot more range come Smash 4 (his Brawl bair and fair exemplified his short range better) But I did mean only some range. He hasn't lost range to the extent of meta knight ( nor is he as fast) but things like Nair, uair, jab, utilt, dtilt dsmash etc still have a bit less range than Lucina/marths respective or general sword attacks.
 

Mario766

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Jumpsquats in this game aren't balanced.

I don't see any real reason you'd want a longer jump squat in this game. Faster is always better.

Name me a high tier character with a jump squat over 5 frames.

Hint: There's 2.

They also both have amazing aerial mobility to offset that fact.
 

Man Li Gi

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Dash to shield option and jumpsquats are among the things I'm surprised no one seems to mind that aren't at all balanced.
 

AnEventHorizon

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Jumpsquats in this game aren't balanced.

I don't see any real reason you'd want a longer jump squat in this game. Faster is always better.

Name me a high tier character with a jump squat over 5 frames.

Hint: There's 2.

They also both have amazing aerial mobility to offset that fact.
I'd expect you to have Ike listed as a high tier character (frame 7 jumpsquat) but Wario (frame 6) and Yoshi (frame 6) both fit that aerial mobility description.

Was it them? In the future you should probably just list them out, since high tier starts and ends differently for different people.
 

KuroganeHammer

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I don't think it's very fair to say "name me characters in high tier with jumpsquats over 5" because there isn't that many characters (maybe about 15?) that don't fall under 4/5 frame jumpsquats anyway.

And the ones that do aren't magically going to skyrocket to high tier if they had 4 frame jumpsquats (Hello Zelda and Samus).
 
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Radical Larry

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Dash to shield option and jumpsquats are among the things I'm surprised no one seems to mind that aren't at all balanced.
Although it's funny, I believe Ganondorf is the best Dash to Shield character in the game. He has a very high traction rate and slow mobility, so it allows him to pull off a shield right off the bat, because he stops so fast in a dash. This also makes him one of the best perfect shielding characters in the game (again, if you play Ganondorf and have characters spam projectiles on you, you tend to start perfect shielding every opportunity you get).
 

Man Li Gi

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Although it's funny, I believe Ganondorf is the best Dash to Shield character in the game. He has a very high traction rate and slow mobility, so it allows him to pull off a shield right off the bat, because he stops so fast in a dash. This also makes him one of the best perfect shielding characters in the game (again, if you play Ganondorf and have characters spam projectiles on you, you tend to start perfect shielding every opportunity you get).
Yea, but that more has to do with distance, not the frames when shield comes out. For example, FE characters have a long initial dash along with their shields coming out like frame 16 (or something absurd like that). Sheik's comes out of dash by frame 8 IIRC.
 

Routa

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And then there is Wario whose DA comes out on like frame 4 and has 100% chanse to trip with late hit (which is like 17 frames active so yeah). The thing is that you pretty much cannot hit airborne foes with it like Samus can.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Villager struggles heavily with rushdown characters [...]
Quite a common claim ... does it have any sort of empirical backing up though?

All things considered Rosalina should probably be considered Villager's worst matchup at this point - hardly somebody I'd call a rushdown character. On the other hand Villager has respectable results against Sheik, does fine against Fox and I really don't see the character lose to Pikachu either. What else is left? Sonic?

:059:
 

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Quite a common claim ... does it have any sort of empirical backing up though?

All things considered Rosalina should probably be considered Villager's worst matchup at this point - hardly somebody I'd call a rushdown character. On the other hand Villager has respectable results against Sheik, does fine against Fox and I really don't see the character lose to Pikachu either. What else is left? Sonic?

:059:
I think Mario would be a reasonably difficult MU for Villager, nothing terrible but Mario has a cape AND really good mobility (in the air mostly) which is really annoying for Villager to deal with compared to Fox who has a reflector but it's considerably harder to just throw out (if he misses the reflect or the villager alters his timing he's left with a bit more recovery than Mario's cape).

Other than that I can't argue for Sonic, I don't know quite enough about how Sonic and Villager interact (I haven't seen this matchup very much if at all going by memory)
 
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~ Gheb ~

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I don't think Reflectors are particularly useful against Villager. You don't really gain a whole lot from reflecting slingshots back at him and a good Villager won't let you reflect anything else. Falco actually has the best reflector in this matchup but neither Fox Shine nor Mario cape really do a lot against him. Mario in general doesn't look like a character that has the tools to have the advantage against Villager. If anything, it should be considered even imo.

I think a lot of people still massively underestimate Villager's nair. That move is pure BS and easily the most consistently reliable OoS option in the whole game. Mario - or other characters - having good aerial approaches doesn't really mean much because *if* there's a character that can punish it it's probably Villager. That's a huge part of the reason why I don't actually think Villager particularly struggles with rushdown characters. You can just nair OoS as soon as something hits your shield and get away with it. Rosalina or Wario don't really have much of an approaching game and they don't have the mobility to directly punish stuff that hits their shield from mid-range [where Villager excells] and yet they do better than almost everybody else against Villager.

:059:
 

TriTails

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Imagine Mario with Luigi's aerials.

Then imagine throwing your Wii U out of a window in frustration.

Let's not :)
:smirk:

But real talk: I was actually... 1/4th serious on that one.

I'm more into increasing his airspeed slightly. Hells would break loose with Mario's airspeed being injected into Luigi. But I feel as his condition of now, if he isn't going to kill you guaranteedly with frame 6 or 8 grabs, he probably should get at least a little bit faster... You know, like giving him Ganon's airspeed.

But I would definitely not increase him any higher than Pits' or Falco's airspeed (Or even stricter line. That's how potent Luigi would be if he had actual airspeed), in which moment we can expect him destroying characters to hell and back.

But eh, character is fairly fine as of now... as long as the Sheik and Rosalina MUs don't get worse and worse. If that were to happen again, I'd probably kick down a door.

And this is my exact problem with Cloud's design. He shuts down other swordsmans' reasons of existance. And a frame 4 jumpsquat on a character with 100 weight and a disjoint is inexcusable. Frame 5 I'd accept.
I question the same thing. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

Mario has a frame 5 jumpsquat. Y'know, someone who literally goes by the name 'Jumpman' in his early careers. Going by weight, he is light than Cloud and carries nothing. Somehow, he takes more time to jump? Really?

I mean, this is the guy who his games literally focused on jumping around buildings and blocks. The **** he jumps slower than a guy who carries a big*** sword.
--------------------------------------------------
Villager talk: Reflectors do squat against Villy. I've ever reflected a tree then Villy just pockets it, ready for an OHKO that can be dropped instantly on the ledge to murder you offstage or at unexpected moments where you'll die at 0%. How does that sound?

Slingshots are often too fast for one to reflect, and they aren't reflect worthwhile.
Reflecting bowling balls are only good if the Villy manages to F-smash in front of you. Besides, Villy doesn't F-smash that often.
Lloid... Only worthwhile if Villy rides it to recover.

I mean, we are talking about a character that can pocket something with 1.9x power multiplier IIRC. That's almost twice the power. Pocketed trees are OHKOs, to add. Reflectors don't do as much as people say against Villager.
 
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Nobie

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Jump squat frames are probably just for animation feel. Mega Man has few jump squat frames to replicate the feel of his games. Bowser has a lot to show the amount of mass he has to throw around. Etc. etc.
 

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I mean, this is the guy who his games literally focused on jumping around buildings and blocks. The **** he jumps slower than a guy who carries a big*** sword.
Cloud is infused with JENOVA cells and also severely affected by Mako which makes him effectively superhuman. I guess they're trying to replicate it in Smash? He was pretty fast in the source material too for a sword that big. He also had a high magic stat for some reason. I think we can all be thankful they shrunk his sword down, haha.
 
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meleebrawler

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Cloud is infused with JENOVA cells and also severely affected by Mako which makes him effectively superhuman. I guess they're trying to replicate it in Smash? He was pretty fast in the source material too for a sword that big. He also had a high magic stat for some reason. I think we can all be thankful they shrunk his sword down, haha.
You have to be fast when you exclusively use a sword, no matter how big it is, in a world where guns are a thing (why else would he have a slide too?)
 

bc1910

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Okay thank you.

A question for everybody: do you guys think Sheik needs more nerfs? In my opinion, I think she is fine the way she is now because she has already been nerfed 3 times (which resulted in pretty severe nerfs to her below-average killpower and kill setups), and many characters can use rage + their own kill setups/reads to kill her very early (since sheik is actually super light).
Sheik has not had any severe nerfs.
  • Multiple nerfs to Fair's damage accomplish nothing as they don't address the real problem with the move, its frame data and range. You can even argue that the damage (and thus knockback) reduction helps it combo into itself more.
  • Uair's 1% damage reduction by removing the 4th hit was just lol, I think it got a knockback nerf as well which was reasonably significant, although smaller Wii U blastzones kinda offset it and her Dthrow 50/50 kill setups still work.
  • Bouncing Fish got a knockback reduction. Meaningful, but again, Wii U blastzones take the edge off and you're usually using BF to KO when the opponent is near the blastzone anyway.
  • Needles have more ending lag. Again, meaningful. But once again the real problem, the attack's startup, wasn't addressed.
  • Bair's big damage nerf from 10/11 to 7/8 was also pretty meaningful. I actually don't agree with this nerf.
Some meaningful, none severe. Though I do think some of her post-release nerfs helped, I still think her worst nerfs actually happened pre-release. Needles used to cancel on landing like Melee and her grenades had incredibly high suction power. There are E3 demo videos on YouTube showing both these moves in their former glory.

Anyway, Sheik nerfs have historically danced around her issues rather than addressing them. Compare this to Greninja and Diddy who got smacked with nerfs that actually addressed their main balancing issues and you can see why people don't think Sheik has been nerfed enough. I would like for her to be tweaked, with some nerfs to her main problems compensated by a buff or two to her weak moves.

I would quite happily restore her kill power on Bair in exchange for something to be done about the actual frame data on Fair and needles. I also think some nerf to her recovery would be appropriate. As others have pointed out, it was okay for Vanish to be so good in Brawl (and kinda Melee) because her other recovery options were pretty poor. Whereas now, she has higher air speed and Bouncing Fish to recover with. The invincibility properties should be altered/removed and the distance toned down. Tweaks to BF's speed and endlag in the air would be very helpful. If you want to do something drastic, make it put her into helpless if she misses. That would also alleviate her problem of having an incredible disadvantage state.

I think her Dthrow should have slightly higher KBG to prevent her 50/50 kill confirm with Uair. You can't try to give a character the "bad at killing" weakness and then give her the next-best-thing to a kill throw. She instantly becomes well above average at killing. Increasing the KBG on her Fthrow would also be sensible before more people figure out she has a 50/50 with Fthrow to BF on most characters.

With Sheik, the two options that come to mind are either increasing her landing lag/messing with her autocancel windows or tweaking her specials. FAir is absurdly cancerous with its safety on shield and how easily it autocancels. It's such a pivotal move for her I don't know what messing with its air-to-ground transitions would do.

I'd be more for altering her specials. Needles... eh, they're really good but I'm not sure what you could change without trashing the move. I'd personally want to shorten Vanish's starting invincibility (probably from 28 on instead of 19 on), and would like to remove the reappearing hitbox (windbox can stay) and possibly weaken its main hitbox very slightly. The invincibility is the main change, though. Bouncing Fish could possibly use a change as well.
Agreed on altering her specials. Her Fair has had the same ridiculous autocancel data since Melee, I think it behaves the way they want and we shouldn't hold our breath for it to be changed.

I do think the way forward is to give her an actual meaningful weakness. Removing the throw 50/50 KCs would give her a more meaningful problem in getting KOs, allowing characters to survive longer, benefit from rage and kill her more easily. Again, further nerfs should come with a restoration of Bair's kill power. It might seem counter-productive to improve her KO potential but Bair could only really kill in edgeguarding situations and it's not a horribly strong KO option.

To add to this, given Rosalina has gotten 16 nerfs since the game came out and is still arguably top 5, I think Sheik would survive. Either way, balancing in this game has been done pretty well.

Unquestionably viable:

:4diddy::4fox::4pikachu::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4zss:

Viable with few doubters:

:4falcon::4lucario::4lucas::4luigi::4mario::4metaknight::4ness::4rob::4sonic::4villager::4wario::4yoshi:

Arguably viable:

:4cloud::4darkpit::4greninja::4myfriends::4megaman::4olimar::4pacman::4peach::4pit::4tlink:

Weird viability purgatory (very strongly debated):

:4bowser::4dk::4falco::4kirby::4link::4mewtwo::4robinm::4wiifit:

Might be after some small adjustments:

:4bowserjr::4charizard::4drmario::4lucina::4marth::4gaw::4feroy::4shulk:

Need big adjustments:

:4dedede::4duckhunt::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4littlemac::4palutena::4samus::4zelda:
Mario and especially Sonic are unquestionably viable. Lucario and Lucas are arguably viable, Lucas might not even be that. I'm nitpicking though, this is pretty good analysis and your point still stands - this game is pretty well balanced with about half the cast at least achieving arguable viability.
 

S_B

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Just because it's disjointed doesn't mean it's better, it comes out slower and has more endlag, only her running grab is good and that's mostly because she lunges further than falcon does.
It's a direct tradeoff.

Range + more endlag vs. less range + less endlag. This means she can use it to cover landings very, VERY well, and I've watched Nairo do this a great deal.

That said, it's best that she doesn't have Sheik's grab, true, but she still gets disgusting reward off of a grab (way more than Sheik usually does, even).
 

Jamurai

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:4pikachu::4villagerf:: If Pikachu is unquestionably viable, so is Villager. They are either both top tier, or both below the level of the others (I'm leaning toward the latter). Both have very good matchup spreads, but have one amazing player repping them and little else in terms of results. I think of them as very much in the same viability boat currently.

:4mario::4sonic:: I echo the others who say Mario and Sonic are unquestionably viable; results out of their ears, excellent matchup spreads (who even beats Sonic properly?), people reguarly put them as top 5 in their tier lists.

:4metaknight:: I think MK is unquestionably viable because I know the power of his punish game and how it essentially invalidates most MUs. He also has very good results.

:4rob:: ROB is 'arguably viable' at best, his problems with top tiers (eg. ZSS, MK) are too big to ignore.

:4lucas:: It's still too early to call Lucas viable, he still has no high level players and hence no results so we haven't really seen him in action (bar Xanadoodoo).

I have other gripes with that viability spread but whatever, everyone has gripes with everyone else's lists unless they perfectly match with their ideas.
 

Ffamran

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Jump squat frames are probably just for animation feel. Mega Man has few jump squat frames to replicate the feel of his games. Bowser has a lot to show the amount of mass he has to throw around. Etc. etc.
And they screw over some characters. Same with why some characters have a higher hard landing frames, but you could argue that as less of a problem since that ranges from the common 4 to the uncommon 6 while jump frames go from the common 4 and 5's to the uncommon 6, 7, and single 8. Frames count and when Bowser has a frame 8 jump, those will bite him back. Bit by bit, more and more problems add onto a character and this can be as "minor" as hard landing frames to as "major" and poor landing options. Welp, poor landing options and a high hard landing... Yeah...

Other fighting games just set a standard jump frame regardless if you skinny, athletic, old, or overweight. KoFXIII has everyone jumping at frame 4 and that includes a fat wrestler named Raiden, a kick-focused Kim, roided up guy carrying what looks like tank shells, Ralf, and a dude wearing a belt restricting his legs for some reason, Iori.
 
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Wintropy

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Top Tiers and the higher High Tiers in this game have either ridiculous killpower, overwhelming neutral game, or reliable kill setups.
No matter how much of a weakness they have, these attributes are just too good and make up for anything.

Pits lacks either of these, so I think they might be high tier at best, like Villager/Falcon tier.
:196:
I agree, Pit will never be top-tier, short of a massive buff to his kit. He doesn't have the kind of "extreme" abilities that the undisputed best characters do, and as good as his neutral and kill setups are, it does require effort to win with them. His options are there, and they're good, but you can't force it in the same way you can with the upper echelon of characters. You have to really be on-point with his kit to get the same results.

[The following optimistic monologue is disconnected from the above statement, and is not in response to the aforementioned quote. Please understand.]

Pit's in a weird place where, at first glance, you'd probably expect him to be mid-tier just by how overwhelmingly moderate he is. He doesn't get hard countered by anybody, but he doesn't hard counter anybody in return; he has a solid neutral game, but nothing oppressive or invalidating; he has good grounded mobility, but poor airspeed; he has a lot of disjoints and grabs setups, but his damage output and kill power is weaker than other swordies to compensate; his recovery is excellent in terms of its ability to get back to the stage, but it doesn't have a hitbox and is easy to trace. He has a plethora of strengths, but nothing overwhelming, offset by notable weaknesses, but nothing insurmountable. I would say he is among the most finely-balanced characters in the game, in that for every advantage he has, he has a comparative disadvantage to even things out. In theory, he should be a decent character that's capable of eking out a nice corner of results somewhere, but not someone that should be able to sit with the big boys. High mid-tier at best, maybe. There's a good boy, Pit, let me pat you on the head while you run off to get your local results.

Thing is...he's more than just that. When you dig a bit deeper, you start to notice tiny discrepancies; subtle details that nudge his overall potential up just a wee bit more than you'd think at first glance. Having no unwinnable matchups in a game that is defined heavily by matchup spreads is a very good advantage to have: even if he doesn't smother any of the weaker characters in the crib, he need never feel totally outdone at the character select screen. It represents something far greater than is often given credit for, the peace of mind that you can win this matchup if you try your best. A good Pit should never feel pressured to shift the token to somebody else out of fear that they cannot and will not win. That happens, and if you want the best possible chance of winning, it's understandable why you may feel compelled to choose another character - but a dedicated Pit main, in theory, need never feel that way. Earth's recent victory over Ranai is a good demonstration of that.

Now consider his moveset. In my own opinion, what truly dominating moves Pit has are few and far between - but they exist. U-smash is a powerful kill move that excels at punishing poor landings, f-throw is a solid kill option due to the potency of his grab and neutral game, Pit's f-tilt is a strong sweetspotted disjoint that can kill out of a pivot, and Dark Pit's side-b is a roaming, armoured, reflective hitbox that can kill most opponents at 70%, can be used out of a pivot or dash and is still effective in the air. I would make the case that these are his most apparently deadly moves, and the only ones I would consider dominating to any extent. Impressive, but not quite the overwhelming toolkit of most high and top-tier characters.

Let's dig a bit deeper still, shall we? I'm going to be a bit bold here and say that Pit is not a shining diamond of a fighter, nor is he even a diamond in the proverbial high-tier rough: he is a polished seam of shiny stone with a few hidden gems buried within. Of the abilities he possesses which do not stand out, I think these may well be his greatest strengths. Consider:

- He has a plethora of strong grab followups that offer him a potent tool in neutral, and a very good grab in itself - low-percent d-throw combos make up a good deal of Pit's gameplan, and he never really drops that ability to threaten his opponent in neutral with the myriad of options he has out of a grab for all possible percentages.

- All of his aerial autocancel out of shorthop, which makes shorthop baiting and punishing so effective and helps offset the otherwise painful landing lag he suffers.

- He has good OOS options in n-air and d-air, both of which can be used to bait or punish depending on the opponent's moves.

- He has one of the overall fastest sets of smash attacks in terms of startup, if not the fastest on average, and all but d-smash have kill potential at reasonable percents.

- He has powerful and potentially fatal options to punish landings in u-smash and u-air, and these are even more effective if the opponent is caught in a frame trap situation such as Earth's iconic u-throw -> arrow -> bait airdodge -> punish technique.

- His multiple jumps and recovery potential mean he can go very deep off-stage to secure early kills or threaten the opponent, very useful in a game where good edgeguarding potential can be a very important attribute to have.

- While he does not have top-tier advantage in neutral or kill confirms, he does have a very respectable neutral game and a playstyle that rewards patience and foresight: he may not win the stock instantly when he wins neutral, but he can consistently win neutral with most characters if he is patient, and perhaps most importantly, he is seldom at a severe disadvantage when he loses neutral himself due to his potential to reset to neutral and impressive recovery;

- Finally, both Pits have their own distinct strengths that help in their own right: Pit's arrows offer him a versatile tool that can pressure opponents both on-stage and off, zone opponents and condition them into reacting or moving in a certain way, do consistent and steady damage due to their versatile trajectory, cover his own recovery options to offset edgeguarding opponents, intercept easily traceable yet potentially deadly recoveries and catch opponents in frame trap situations, and Dark Pit has the aforementioned side-b kill option.

Very good options in themselves, and indeed, they are just that: options. Pit is never really bottlenecked into one kind of gameplan, he has a good variety of potent options in any situation, and this helps him in each of the three main game states. While he is never truly dominant or oppressive in any of these states, he is nevertheless consistent in what he can do, and short of universally-dominant top-tier options that beat everybody by definition, I can think of few situations in which he ever feels truly and incontestably helpless.

The beauty of Pit, I think, is that none of these things really stand out to the casual observer. Most people don't see Pit in bracket and think, "Oh, this is going to be good, he's definitely going to win this!" (unless, of course, the player in question is an exceptionally good Pit; but I'll get to that.) You have to dig a bit deeper into the shiny stone seam to find the buried gems within. And while these gems may not be the priceless trinkets of the top-tiers, they're impressive in their own way, and I think it's fair to say that Pit's strengths just about outdo his weaknesses and help edge him into a state where he is more universally advantageous than disadvantageous. Nothing about him is absolutely, overwhelmingly, objectively better than anybody else - yet most things about him are good, maybe even very good. He isn't just a boring, middle-of-the-road character with no real strengths or weaknesses: he's a character with no fatal weaknesses and quite a few impressive strengths. He's a character that is, on average, honestly pretty damn good at what he does.

Is he top-tier? No. That's a redundant question, since I've made that abundantly clear throughout this entire monologue. It's worth reaffirming, though, just to really drive the point home: Pit is not a top-tier character. He will never quite be a top-tier, or even an upper high-tier for this reason, but I think it's fair to say he is at least on the lower end of the high-tier spectrum, possibly even mid high-tier. I do think he is solidly high-tier, though, and definitely a tournament-viable character. I am very optimistic about where the Pit metagame will go from here, and I honestly think he has nowhere to go but up: with people really taking notice of what he can do and, gods willing, more players willing to pick him up and try him out, I think the future is very bright for the angels. I'm happy to be involved in it, and I'm very excited about where we go next.

EDIT: Formatting.
 
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Kofu

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Quite a common claim ... does it have any sort of empirical backing up though?

All things considered Rosalina should probably be considered Villager's worst matchup at this point - hardly somebody I'd call a rushdown character. On the other hand Villager has respectable results against Sheik, does fine against Fox and I really don't see the character lose to Pikachu either. What else is left? Sonic?

:059:
Maybe "struggles heavily" wasn't the right phrase, but in my experience fast characters tend to give Villager the biggest headache as they have the easiest time getting around his projectiles and have the best options for escaping his advantaged state (Falcon excluded here obviously). I actually think the Rosalina matchup is fine, a loss but nothing horrible, mainly because she's so tall that low jump slingshots can easily chip her. I honestly don't know what to do against Fox but that may just be me. I haven't followed Ranai's results closely enough to know who he tends to struggle against but would be curious to learn. Are there any noteworthy Villager players that are in the west and play consistently?

NAir is definitely his keystone move, I don't think that high-level Villager players underestimate it at all. It's certainly not brought up enough when discussing the character though.
 

Wintropy

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:4metaknight:: I think MK is unquestionably viable because I know the power of his punish game and how it essentially invalidates most MUs. He also has very good results.
That and MK's meta seems to be constantly evolving. He's just getting better as more people work on optimising his kit. That's a very respectable position to be in for any character.
 

Yikarur

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ZSS's only real weakness is her grab but, if it weren't for that, she'd easily be the best character in the game.
Her main weakness is that all her moves need "set-up" because her double jump is so high and she does not have a single rising SH aerial that hits grounded opponnents.
Her grab is both positive and negative. If she had a grab like MIi Brawler she would be far worse off than with her actual grab for example. She wouldn't confirm paralyzer/Zair into grab as easily as well. I think the grab is perfectly designed for her and that you should not look at it as an actual weakness because a standard grab would not be that as beneficial overall. Her grab has an appropriate risk/reward ratio.


Villager struggles heavily with rushdown characters and kind of loses to shield.
I'd like to get a cookie for every time someone says a character loses to shield. How does a character that throws so much safe stuff on you that you are forced to react have a problem with shield? It's the same as saying Cloud loses to shield (how does a character with a normal grab lose to shield?!) or that Yoshi loses to shield (-7 fair on shield that kills 1/3 of your shield, super mobile command grab, dair takes 3/4 of a shield away)

I think if a character "LOSES" to shield, he would be bottom tier because you know, he would actually lose to shield. But there is no character that single handily loses to shield. They have either an normal grab, safe strong aerials, a projectile game that forces your reaction or other ways to play arround it.


His grab is THE worst in the game IMO, unimpressive range for a frame 15 grab with 40 frames of endlag.
He has in fact the worst grabs in the game. Samus is close second. But he has at least tools that set-up grabs.[/QUOTE]
 
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PGH_Chrispy

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I don't think it's very fair to say "name me characters in high tier with jumpsquats over 5" because there isn't that many characters (maybe about 15?) that don't fall under 4/5 frame jumpsquats anyway.

And the ones that do aren't magically going to skyrocket to high tier if they had 4 frame jumpsquats (Hello Zelda and Samus).
I dunno... Zelda with a frame 4 jumpsquat now gets access to some really good OOS options, namely frame 7 bair and frame 10 fair, to add to her Up-B OOS. Frame 10 fair may not sound like much, but that's actually as fast as her standing grab (unfortunately). Those two frames make a pretty significant difference.
 

Vyrnx

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If we are talking worst grab in the game as far as straight up range/frame data, it's Villager (worst), then Pacman, then Samus (all are terrible).
If we are talking awfulness of grab + grab reward, Samus is the worst lol...

If you get dthrown by Samus and do no DI, prepare for 45 damage at low percents or 25 damage combos into the 100% range. If you get dthrown by Samus and DI away, prepare for... Um. It's true that Samus can get true combos (the same 45 damage ones) on characters even if they DI away (think Falcon, running to follow DI before jumping), but we are talking about a 1/60 of a second opening. I've heard of one Samus player who can consistently do it, but there isn't anyway that someone can reasonably call this a "combo throw". Maybe eventually we will get good at it.

That's my pro tip for anyone with a Samus they play at locals, DI away and then eventually the Samus will just start using their miserable f/b/uthrows instead. 9 damage throws that don't kill and don't combo is the reward for a horrible grab. And if you are someone who likes to complain about Samus by listing things she's actually good at, then you should be mentioning her grab game. It's her biggest weakness for sure.

Luckily for Samus, dash attack combos you can't do much about, and she has other stuff going for her.
 
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LancerStaff

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Pit gained a lot more range come Smash 4 (his Brawl bair and fair exemplified his short range better) But I did mean only some range. He hasn't lost range to the extent of meta knight ( nor is he as fast) but things like Nair, uair, jab, utilt, dtilt dsmash etc still have a bit less range than Lucina/marths respective or general sword attacks.
Uair doesn't really have much less range then the "average" swordie, and has more then Cloud and Ike's Uair. Same deal with Jab, although his outdos Roy's too. Dtilt is equal to the Marths' and I don't think is that far off of Ike's. Obviously doesn't hold a candle to Cloud's in the range department but I think most of us would make an exception. Utilt is worse, but not as much as you'd think because it has Snake level disjoints upwards. Nair and Dsmash are worse in range, buuut I think most swordsmen would kill for a f4 aerial and a remotely usable Dsmash (much less one of the best) otherwise, so yeah.

Yes, Pit definitely had short range for a swordsman in Brawl. But not anymore, and I'm not saying it's because Marth has bad range because that mostly wasn't touched from Brawl. Pit has worse range then Marth in completely irrelevant ways... And to be honest, I don't think Ike and Cloud have much more range, if any, compared to Pit.
 

Fatmanonice

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Just to explain some of my choices:

Viable with few doubters:

The characters in this category are getting results but many of them have a tendency to be called "overrated" and people expect them to drop eventually. I know :4falcon::4luigi::4mario::4ness::4villager::4yoshi: in particular get accused of this a lot while the consensus seems to be that :4lucario::4lucas::4metaknight::4sonic: will only get better as time goes on.

Arguably viable:

Characters who may not have a ton of results but many people argue that they have room to grow or are maybe a buff away from starting to turn heads. How good these characters are typically isn't immediately apparent because they take more work/tech skill/match up knowledge than a lot of the top/high characters. High ranking players of these characters can be hard to come by too because of these frustrations.
 

R3D3MON

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Sheik has not had any severe nerfs.
Some meaningful, none severe. Though I do think some of her post-release nerfs helped, I still think her worst nerfs actually happened pre-release. Needles used to cancel on landing like Melee and her grenades had incredibly high suction power. There are E3 demo videos on YouTube showing both these moves in their former glory.

Anyway, Sheik nerfs have historically danced around her issues rather than addressing them. Compare this to Greninja and Diddy who got smacked with nerfs that actually addressed their main balancing issues and you can see why people don't think Sheik has been nerfed enough. I would like for her to be tweaked, with some nerfs to her main problems compensated by a buff or two to her weak moves.

I would quite happily restore her kill power on Bair in exchange for something to be done about the actual frame data on Fair and needles. I also think some nerf to her recovery would be appropriate. As others have pointed out, it was okay for Vanish to be so good in Brawl (and kinda Melee) because her other recovery options were pretty poor. Whereas now, she has higher air speed and Bouncing Fish to recover with. The invincibility properties should be altered/removed and the distance toned down. Tweaks to BF's speed and endlag in the air would be very helpful. If you want to do something drastic, make it put her into helpless if she misses. That would also alleviate her problem of having an incredible disadvantage state.

I think her Dthrow should have slightly higher KBG to prevent her 50/50 kill confirm with Uair. You can't try to give a character the "bad at killing" weakness and then give her the next-best-thing to a kill throw. She instantly becomes well above average at killing. Increasing the KBG on her Fthrow would also be sensible before more people figure out she has a 50/50 with Fthrow to BF on most characters.
Some points to consider:

-Regarding d-throw 50-50, I think it is fine the way it is because as san. has said before, it doesn't really kill at % where people die. Also at higher % percents it stops becoming a true 50-50 b/c people can just combo DI properly and jump. This is a very good example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVxgOl3bPmw (skip to 13:36 in the video to see the f-throw kill setup failing, then at 13:44 to see the d-throw kill set up failing, and then again at 14:11 to see the d-throw setup failing). D-throw does not give enough hitstun to really setup a proper kill setup because of so many factors that somewhat invalidate the set up (rage, jumping, DI, and sometimes even proper air-dodging on reaction and then drifting away or jumping away to the ledge, etc.). I think the Sheik's best kill setup currently is actually weak nair into bouncing fish (sometimes up-smash), or fair into bouncing fish (I don't think this actually works very well, but correct me if I am wrong). So to make her weakness to killing even more emphasized I would likely nerf her nair by giving it more KBG and damage so that it combos less into bouncing fish, and maybe also decreases the power of bouncing fish (although I do like to point out that bouncing fish is a very weak move without rage, as seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbqWKarvQ94 (skip to 6:12 in the video).

-I think the real problem with sheik's kill setups and such is rage because sheik can become both the safest character with working kill setups and 50/50s at high percents (although this is not necessarily true, as stated before). If I was a developer of SSB4 I would likely tone down the effects of rage because from what I have been seeing, it benefits higher tier characters more than lower tier characters. I mean, if rage was designed to benefit the heavies the most, it certainly failed at its job because no heavy character became higher in the tier lists because of rage, and they only became more effective after receiving proper kill setups from grabs that balance out their terrible neutral and disadvantaged states (i.e. bowser and DK). I see rage really benefiting characters like sheik, ZSS, mario, fox, MK, etc. because their kill setups or reads become a lot more effective with rage. And, from what I've been seeing more and more professional players are getting better and better at surviving at higher percents with better DIing in general, so rage will become even more effective as the meta progresses. I would honestly just tone down the effects of rage, which would satisfy people wanting to really nerf sheik's kill setups and whatnot, and also keep rage still in the game, albeit less impactful than before.

-Regarding sheik's recovery, I totally agree. It really does deserve some nerfs because of how safe it is (although I'd like to point out the there are 2 frames(?) of vulnerability before sheik users can grab the ledge, so it is definitely possible to hit her at the end of up-b before grabbing the ledge, and from my experiences it isn't the hardest thing to do as I've done it pretty consistently by running offstage and using bair with mario and luigi). I think creating more frames of vulnerability at the ending frames and starting frames of vanish would be a meaningful nerf to her recovery. Also I would probably get rid of her windbox and shorten the invincibility frames on her vanish.

Overall, I don't think sheik really needs any more nerfs to her attack moves and combo/kill potential because she is not a super dominant top tier (i.e. melee spacies and MK in brawl). Although this could change in the future, I really don't see any tools in sheik's arsenal that make her a dominant top tier (i.e. melee spacies' frame-1 invincible shine that can be jumped out of). Also, as stated before I'm not really seeing sheiks dominate every major and locals and such, and in PR lists I see way more diverse lists of characters than just sheik.

For anyone who reads this: sorry for the long text wall :p
 

san.

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Uair doesn't really have much less range then the "average" swordie, and has more then Cloud and Ike's Uair. Same deal with Jab, although his outdos Roy's too. Dtilt is equal to the Marths' and I don't think is that far off of Ike's. Obviously doesn't hold a candle to Cloud's in the range department but I think most of us would make an exception. Utilt is worse, but not as much as you'd think because it has Snake level disjoints upwards. Nair and Dsmash are worse in range, buuut I think most swordsmen would kill for a f4 aerial and a remotely usable Dsmash (much less one of the best) otherwise, so yeah.

Yes, Pit definitely had short range for a swordsman in Brawl. But not anymore, and I'm not saying it's because Marth has bad range because that mostly wasn't touched from Brawl. Pit has worse range then Marth in completely irrelevant ways... And to be honest, I don't think Ike and Cloud have much more range, if any, compared to Pit.
Are you sure about this? Ike's uair has more range than Pit's, especially in front of him. Cloud's uair has like double the range of Pit's and like +50% on Ike's.

Ike is kinda small in 4, and only outranges Pit in a few moves: uair, nair, dair, utilt, and usmash(kinda). Fair is the same horizontally, but Ike's covers many more angles. Pit blatantly outranges Ike everywhere else: bair, dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, dsmash.

Pit outranges Cloud in the same areas, except bair may be the same. Cloud also outranges Pit in the same areas.

Pit lunges so much on some of his attacks that while he has a lot of range on some of his attacks, he may not have as much disjoint, leaving himself a bit more open to whiff punishment if he wants to use those attacks for spacing.
 
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LancerStaff

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Are you sure about this? Ike's uair has more range than Pit's, especially in front of him. Cloud's uair has like double the range of Pit's and like +50% on Ike's.

Ike is kinda small in 4, and only outranges Pit in a few moves: uair, nair, dair, utilt, and usmash(kinda). Fair is the same horizontally, but Ike's covers many more angles. Pit blatantly outranges Ike everywhere else: bair, dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, dsmash.

Pit outranges Cloud in the same areas, except bair may be the same. Cloud also outranges Pit in the same areas.

Pit lunges so much on some of his attacks that while he has a lot of range on some of his attacks, he may not have as much disjoint, leaving himself a bit more open to whiff punishment if he wants to use those attacks for spacing.
I'm mostly talking about vertical on comparing the Uairs. Yeah, Ike and Cloud have more horizontal on theirs but Pit's probably not going to try using his like theirs. Same deal with the Dairs... Pit can use his like a Bair or Fair since it's a broad swing and less of a thrust, and especially Ike wouldn't be attempting to use his Dair like Pit would. Or like ever for that matter.

I mean, I'm saying that Pit and Ike/Cloud have similar range overall.

Pit's lungeyness honestly isn't an issue besides Ftilt where he takes a giant step forward and doesn't move back. Can't think of anything else where I'd go "I wouldn't of been punished if Pit weren't so hot blooded." Not sure his arms have hurtboxes, lolol.
 
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Mr. Johan

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I don't think it's very fair to say "name me characters in high tier with jumpsquats over 5" because there isn't that many characters (maybe about 15?) that don't fall under 4/5 frame jumpsquats anyway.

And the ones that do aren't magically going to skyrocket to high tier if they had 4 frame jumpsquats (Hello Zelda and Samus).

You absolutely do not want Robin to have a frame 4 jumpsquat.

Unless you think you'd enjoy getting smacked by Bairs, Fairs, Uairs, better Arcfire setups and easier Checkmates all day.
 
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C0rvus

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You absolutely do not want Robin to have a frame 4 jumpsquat.

Unless you think you'd enjoy getting smacked by Bairs, Fairs, Uairs, better Arcfire setups and easier Checkmates all day.
I can confidently say I want this lol
Might patch up his sluggishness a bit in a manner that doesn't affect his dash speed.
 

Mr. Johan

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I can confidently say I want this lol
Might patch up his sluggishness a bit in a manner that doesn't affect his dash speed.
I may gripe about Robin having f7 jumpsquat, but I can understand why it is.

If he had f4 jumpsquat, I wouldn't even use projectiles. I'd just autocancel Fair all day, lol.



It's also probably why he got Checkmate in the first place. Not only does Robin have to grab with that bad range, but he also has to be nearly frame perfect to catch them with Uair afterward. He does it too fast, he gets JC Usmash. He does it too slow, he misses due to airdodge. He gets it perfectly, he gets his KO at 90. There's hardly any room for leeway, so getting it on the dot is heavily rewarded.
 
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