Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Luigi player]

I just deleted all my old videos of this, but I am 99% sure the bthrows in order of killing at the edge with perfect DI is

Ness
Smash Shulk
Lucas
Villager
Mewtwo
Toon Link

That could be possible, but like I said depending on % Villager will probably be stronger than Smash Shulk at ~125 %.
As for Lucas and Mewtwo, those two weren't released at the time of my first bthrow KO testings so it's possible.

Let me test them real quick to make sure:

Lucas KOs Mario at 121 % at the edge if Mario holds back to the stage. So it's the same as Villagers. Villagers bthrow KOs Mario from the middle of Omega BF with DI/vectoring at 169.
[Villager [Bthrow] 169 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)]
Just tested Lucas now, and I can survive at even 200 % with Mario.

Pretty safe to assume that Lucas is stronger at first (where it doesn't really matter), is about the same when it's starting to get possible KOs at the earliest moments on edges of stages, but Villagers gets much stronger at later % (though Lucas has his uthrow anyway).

Mewtwos bthrow KOs Mario (with holding back) at 125 % at the edge. So yeah, stronger than Toon Link (127)... but at the middle of Omega BF I surivive with Mario at 190 % by just holding back to the stage and a little downwards. So later Toon Links is stronger.
[Toon Link [Bthrow] 183 (DI left/right against the throw + a bit down and doublejump)]
But that's at these high %s, so they're about the same with Mewtwos being slightly stronger at first with Toon Link getting the upper hand the higher the %s get.

As for Shulk, let's see... I survive at 195 %, get KO'd at 200, though.

So overall I'd say (though, it really just depends on how important you view the earliest possible KOs at edges):

1 Ness (super duper strong)
2 Villager (really high KBG)
3-4 Toon Link (stronger than Mewtwo at ~135+)
3-4 Mewtwo (stronger than Toon Link before ~135)
5 Shulk (Smash) (really strong at first, but gets weaker at higher %s)
6 Lucas (pretty strong at first, but gets weaker the higher the %s go)

Even if you see Shulk and Lucas as higher up than Tink and Mewtwo, I'd definitely put Villager at #2.
Not sure about how it is with some other characters and their KBG. That's just the ones from your list.

 

[Blobface]

Since we're on the subject of throws and grabs and whatnot, who's ready for some (maybe) controversial opinions? I know I am!

Almost no character should have killing grab confirms.

Almost every grab confirm is way out of line with the rest of a characters moveset reward-wise. In fact, it's inherently out of line with the rest of a characters moveset since every single one moves you closer to the blastzone then hits you. So unless you make whatever aerial they confirm with absurdly weak or make the rest of their normals absurdly strong, you can't balance them with the rest of the characters moveset. That's why killing throws are fine. There's far more control over when they kill, and if you compare the kill %'s of the strongest kill throws to the kill %'s of most grab confirms (anywhere from 70-130% depending on character and rage), you'll notice that every kill throw kills way later.

Spoiler

Credit to Luigi player
Strongest killthrows: KO % on Mario in training mode from the middle of Omega BF, with DI

Mewtwo [Uthrow] 135 (DI left or right)
Ness [Bthrow] 136 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)
Lucas [Uthrow] 147 (DI left or right)
Olimar[Uthrow, blue] 152 (DI away and a little bit down)
Charizard [Uthrow] 159 (DI down and away)
ROB [Uthrow] 162 (DI away and a little bit down)
Link [Uthrow] 166 (DI left or right)
Greninja [Uthrow] 168 (DI behind Greninja)
Villager [Bthrow] 169 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)
Toon Link [Bthrow] 183 (DI left/right against the throw + a bit down and doublejump)

The result? Rather than using the entirety of a characters moveset in a unique and interesting gameplan, we get this. Exhibit D(K): DK, since the Ding-Dong was patched in, can actually be punished for landing hits due to potentially putting them out of Ding Dong percents, thus losing both a killing option and a very threatening tool that makes the opponent play by your rules. Not only is he incentivized to get a grab, he's disincentivized from getting anything else.

From the beginning of the game, a relatively small amount of characters have been able to kill off of grab confirms. In my eyes, grabs are such a fundamental, base tool that killing/not killing should be standard across almost the entire cast. So either we give all 40-45 characters that can't kill off of grabs a killing grab confirm (which would require rebuilding the entire game from the ground up to accommodate), or we get rid of the few killing grab confirms that already exist. Which is easier?

The only exceptions I can think of would be MK and ZSS. MK's grabs, whether you like his overall character or not, are in line with the rest of his moveset (Dash Attack, U-tilt, and D-tilt all provide similar setups). ZSS's grabs are more rewarding than the rest of her moveset at certain percents, but they involve substantially more risk than most grabs, especially since she's the lightest tethergrabber (Olimar is lighter but has much less endlag. One could argue that other tethergrabbers can't access near as much reward as ZSS with their grabs, and you'd be right, but this post isn't about ZSS).

Also, 50/50's aren't any better than killing grab confirms. They have all the same problems, but they only take stocks half the time. This would be fine if failing a 50/50 could get you punished, but most 50/50's are just as safe when whiffing as they are when killing.

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism of any specific characters. This is a criticism of grab design in general.

Bottom line, almost all killing grab confirms inherently overcentralize characters and are impossible to balance.

 

[Lavani]

Re: Palutena jab> stuff

Unlike a lot of jabs which are weight-based, her jab has actual knockback growth and as a result has higher hitstun at higher percents. I have a text file with some info about it at home () but off the top of my head jab> frame 18 usmash even becomes real at around 170-180% in training iirc; earlier in a real match with rage. If jab> grab is escapable either your percent's too low or the Palutena's too slow.

 

[PK Gaming]

Since we're on the subject of throws and grabs and whatnot, who's ready for some (maybe) controversial opinions? I know I am!

Almost no character should have killing grab confirms.

Almost every grab confirm is way out of line with the rest of a characters moveset reward-wise. In fact, it's inherently out of line with the rest of a characters moveset since every single one moves you closer to the blastzone then hits you. So unless you make whatever aerial they confirm with absurdly weak or make the rest of their normals absurdly strong, you can't balance them with the rest of the characters moveset. That's why killing throws are fine. There's far more control over when they kill, and if you compare the kill %'s of the strongest kill throws to the kill %'s of most grab confirms (anywhere from 70-130% depending on character and rage), you'll notice that every kill throw kills way later.

Spoiler

Credit to Luigi player
Strongest killthrows: KO % on Mario in training mode from the middle of Omega BF, with DI

Mewtwo [Uthrow] 135 (DI left or right)
Ness [Bthrow] 136 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)
Lucas [Uthrow] 147 (DI left or right)
Olimar[Uthrow, blue] 152 (DI away and a little bit down)
Charizard [Uthrow] 159 (DI down and away)
ROB [Uthrow] 162 (DI away and a little bit down)
Link [Uthrow] 166 (DI left or right)
Greninja [Uthrow] 168 (DI behind Greninja)
Villager [Bthrow] 169 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)
Toon Link [Bthrow] 183 (DI left/right against the throw + a bit down and doublejump)

The result? Rather than using the entirety of a characters moveset in a unique and interesting gameplan, we get this. Exhibit D(K): DK, since the Ding-Dong was patched in, can actually be punished for landing hits due to potentially putting them out of Ding Dong percents, thus losing both a killing option and a very threatening tool that makes the opponent play by your rules. Not only is he incentivized to get a grab, he's disincentivized from getting anything else.

From the beginning of the game, a relatively small amount of characters have been able to kill off of grab confirms. In my eyes, grabs are such a fundamental, base tool that killing/not killing should be standard across almost the entire cast. So either we give all 40-45 characters that can't kill off of grabs a killing grab confirm (which would require rebuilding the entire game from the ground up to accommodate), or we get rid of the few killing grab confirms that already exist. Which is easier?

The only exceptions I can think of would be MK and ZSS. MK's grabs, whether you like his overall character or not, are in line with the rest of his moveset (Dash Attack, U-tilt, and D-tilt all provide similar setups). ZSS's grabs are more rewarding than the rest of her moveset at certain percents, but they involve substantially more risk than most grabs, especially since she's the lightest tethergrabber (Olimar is lighter but has much less endlag. One could argue that other tethergrabbers can't access near as much reward as ZSS with their grabs, and you'd be right, but this post isn't about ZSS).

Also, 50/50's aren't any better than killing grab confirms. They have all the same problems, but they only take stocks half the time. This would be fine if failing a 50/50 could get you punished, but most 50/50's are just as safe when whiffing as they are when killing.

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism of any specific characters. This is a criticism of grab design in general.

Bottom line, almost all killing grab confirms inherently overcentralize characters and are impossible to balance.

Throwing out extremely nebulous terms like "inherently overcentralize" (especially in this case where it doesn't apply) doesn't make you sound smart, it only hurts your argument. Similarly, your conclusion (that kill confirms are impossible to balance) is not supported by your argument whatsoever.

I don't disagree with the idea that kill grab setups can make certain characters more shallow, but it varies from character to character.

 

[Ulevo]

So something that I do not see talked about when assessing a characters tier potential in the meta is the quality of their shield. Well, here is the data to start said discussion:

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-shield-rankings.427236/

Spoiler: Jigglypuff is hilariously bad.

 

[Antonykun]

These characters disagree

I used to think this but it's funny, looking at the upper portion of the cast, how things have changed. This was definitely true during the days of Sheik/Diddy/Luigi dominance but now, not so much.

are fine with simply beating shield as now you have some time to not block their super early kill moves Wario (chomp)and to a lesser extent Cloud charge their kill moves with a successful throw
they have kill moves that synergises well with their positional throws
you got me there. Mario and Yoshi are threats because they are easy to pick up at a mid level
(post-nerfs) Who? I don't have enough info on them to make any assumptions
has some shenanigans with f-throw into key and stuff but I'm 99% sure this guy can cure cancer with a key so w/e
You did not just tell a Villager main that Villager can't kill with her back throw not only that but Lloid + Slingshot forces the opponent to shield so much that they are not expecting the grab

You guys need to remember that simply putting a character in a situation where they can be pressured to death is incredibly valuable here even if they aren't a guaranteed kill or a 50/50

 

[Nu~]

Down throw leads into tech chases and jab locks
Back throw kills
Uthrow is useless outside of giving us some time to charge
Fthrow -> into key isn't true, but is a nice mix up.

His throws aren't spectacular, and certainly don't pay their worth for his bad grab, but they have some usage.

 

[LancerStaff]

Outside of that... the only unfortunate spikers that are swordsmen are blah, blah and the Pits where they have to hit with exactly 1 frame.

It's actually not as big a deal as you'd think. Below the stage where if you miss you're either going to get launched at a 60 degree angle away from the stage weakly or less frequently upwards into the stage, which'd either result in a stage spike or even if you tech or don't hit the stage Pit's still going to be able to harass you because Dair's a decent combo starter. As far as I can tell the spike hitbox is pretty big too, so I don't see people miss it a lot.

Above the stage... It's a f10 heavily disjointed spike with a fairly quick FAF on a character with multiple jumps and the literal ability to go to hell and back. You do not want that spike to last more then a frame.

 

[Blobface]

Throwing out extremely nebulous terms like "overcentralize" (especially in this case where it doesn't apply) doesn't make you sound smart, it only hurts your argument. Similarly, your conclusion (that kill confirms are impossible to balance) is not supported by your argument whatsoever.

Grab confirms universally move the victim closer to a blastzone then hit them with an attack. This will always make it difficult, if not impossible, for them to kill at reasonable percents in line with the rest of the characters moveset, especially with Rage. If one particular action, which beats shield, comes out fast, can cover large amounts of ground (dashgrab, though that's obviously easier to avoid), and is fairly safe, yields the highest reward, there's very little reason for them to do anything else. The rest of their moveset suddenly is just there to help set up the grab. That is definitely overcentralization.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying grab reward should be standardized. Some characters should have a good grab game, with it being a major source of their damage. Some characters should deal damage mainly with their normals. However, grab is a basic, necessary tool for almost every character in the game, and while every single attack does damage, not every attack kills. The difference between characters that can kill with grab confirms and those that can't is just too big of a problem. You can't really compensate for it. It's like if shield started on frame 5 for most characters, but was frame 1 for a few others.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but I really don't like this trend of giving underwhelming characters grab confirms rather than really balancing them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Speaking of grab games, I think Ganon's could use a little more spice.

His D-Throw, mostly. Its BKB and KBG are fine but I think its angle is really crap and I feel like they should make it bounce inwards in lieu of how it was in Melee. Since this game does not have chaingrabbing I doubt it'd be that broken or stupidly good. Outside of inward bouncing it could at least not send people as far out as it does, it's ALMOST a solid combo throw until people start DIing out and stuff. Really only works near the edge of the stage assuming Ganon can force that position.

If they're tweaking all of the throws on the heavies I think this one of all of them could use it the most. It's a little too unrewarding for my tastes for how hard it is to actually get grabs as Ganon.

 

[adom4]

Speaking of grab games, I think Ganon's could use a little more spice.

His D-Throw, mostly. Its BKB and KBG are fine but I think its angle is really crap and I feel like they should make it bounce inwards in lieu of how it was in Melee. Since this game does not have chaingrabbing I doubt it'd be that broken or stupidly good. Outside of inward bouncing it could at least not send people as far out as it does, it's ALMOST a solid combo throw until people start DIing out and stuff. Really only works near the edge of the stage assuming Ganon can force that position.

If they're tweaking all of the throws on the heavies I think this one of all of them could use it the most. It's a little too unrewarding for my tastes for how hard it is to actually get grabs as Ganon.

Ganon's throws are mostly fine, even with DI it confirms into Nair/DA/U-air at low-mid% & F-throw does good damage, the problem is more in his awful grab.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ganon's throws are mostly fine, even with DI it confirms into Nair/DA/U-air at low-mid% & F-throw does good damage, the problem is more in his awful grab.

That's kinda my point, though. Normally it'd be a solid throw but the problem is the reward is really low for getting it with Ganon who does not have a very easy time landing grab in the first place. It's kinda how things should be balanced IMO, either make his grab better/more usable or tune the reward of his throws appropriately because as is I think they're all pretty bad for the amount of effort it takes to land a grab with him.

 

[Blobface]

An angle change would be reasonable. It wouldn't be as easy to DI but it still wouldn't confirm into anything at kill percents.

 

[LancerStaff]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but I really don't like this trend of giving underwhelming characters grab confirms rather than really balancing them.

I don't like it either, but in the "big picture" of Smash that's actually the best way to go about it.

What do Bowser, DK and Zard's kill and/or combo throws have in common? The throws themselves take forever to pull off. Ding dong ain't that big in a FFA match because grab > cargo > cargo Uthrow > Uair takes quite a while to pull off. Actually, a lot of combo throws are pretty slow, such as ZSS or Ness's off the top of my head...

Still, if they weren't buffed like this then they probably wouldn't of been buffed at all.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Blobface
I agree. As a DK main, the change was good, but now severely limits his perception in the meta (for good reason too). I mean, its an omnipresent strategy that is powerful, but what if your opponent completely can ignore it?

Outside of Ding Dong and a decrease in lag of punch, he hasn't changed so much that he goes from zero to hero, but if you ask for any buffs or any type of compensation, the response is "muh grab". I made a post explaining that I hate the Ding Dong and what it does to him. If anything, they could fix his Nair as it has booty hitboxes (uair hits more in front of him than his Nair). It kinda kills, it kinda setups, it has low damage, frame 10, and has stupid landing lag.

Asking for buffs is a deadman's challenge, but implore peeps to look at Bowser and DK without they grabs, cuz in the highest echelon of players have a simple counter strat to beat it.

 

[Ffamran]

So something that I do not see talked about when assessing a characters tier potential in the meta is the quality of their shield. Well, here is the data to start said discussion:

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-shield-rankings.427236/

Spoiler: Jigglypuff is hilariously bad.

*scrolls down for Falco* ... Why? What the hell? Gee, guys, don't you think Falco's shield is a bit too small? Nah, Tim, it's fine. *proceeds to shrink it even further* It's a pain moving slow and having issues with your physics screwing you over and now Falco (and Ganondorf) has an actual defensive disadvantage too. Anyway, shouldn't Yoshi have a "N/A" instead of 0 since his shell doesn't shrink at all?

Also, nitpick on grab game and throw games... Fox has a good grab game, but a bad to average throw game versus Falco who has a bad grab game, but a good throw game. Or something like ZSS has a bad grab game, but a phenomenal throw game and Sheik who has both good grab and throw games.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't forget even Jr.'s bthrow can kill at the edge. Pummel's pretty great too.

Also on the issue of overcentralizing grab games, it's been a thing ever since Zangief came to be.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So we might be getting a bit more high-level Little Mac again, it seems that Sol is unretiered, and now sponsored by Noble.

I thought he quit for monetary reasons, does anyone know why he is back?

 

[Thinkaman]

So we might be getting a bit more high-level Little Mac again, it seems that Sol is unretiered, and now sponsored by Noble.

I thought he quit for monetary reasons, does anyone know why he is back?

I dunno, but this is officially the best news so far of 2016.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I dunno, but this is officially the best news so far of 2016.

I saw a thread on reddit, the weird thing is that it was mainly a picture.

Found a link to his Twitter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Solreth/status/682761901068185601

He announces it in a post.

 

[Jams.]

So we might be getting a bit more high-level Little Mac again, it seems that Sol is unretiered, and now sponsored by Noble.

I thought he quit for monetary reasons, does anyone know why he is back?

He never quit Smash 4 IIRC, he just left MVG and phrased his Reddit announcement in a confusing way such that many people thought he was quitting Smash 4.

 

[Mario766]

Hold the phone.

You'll let MK, who is the king of "You got hit by X and you're dead" keep his kill confirm off grab because everything else does it but other kill confirms off grabs/50/50s are not okay?

A lot of kill grab confirms have very strict percentages that require knowing DI, their percent AND your rage. Yes, DK can get a kill if he gets a grab at certain percents and confirms into up air. Yes, Bowser can do the same. Ike has 50/50s and true combos on a very limited amount of the cast, but 50/50s are that, unless your opponent is Sheik you can almost ALWAYS avoid 50/50s by pushing one button

Jump.

We aren't in Diddy Kong era. You don't die at 80 to a kill confirm to a no rage Diddy using a frame 3 aerial to kill you earlier than heavies can. Grab confirms are a lot more balanced, and when the top list of the cast is full of bull****, characters need kill confirms to be effective.

Ryu can confirm into a kill with a frame 6 move that is invincible frames 1-6 off a frame 2 move that kills you earlier at times than these kill confirms. Are we gonna call that to be removed next?

The stage list is also very heavily leaned to normal height stages. TnC is the only stage in usual stage lists that has a lower vertical blast zone, BF is even larger, albeit platforms make things easier for them, but let's be honest.

You're gonna die a LOT more often to a ZSS getting up air/up-b kills on BF than you are someone getting a grab on the top platform and throw kill confirming you.

Because if you got GRABBED on the TOP PLATFORM

You.

Deserved.

It.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So, Trela beat Karna, Cloud vs. Shiek.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXEUTGYu9xo

Spoiler: Literally a spoiler

pretty close set, and Karna brought it back from losers... So I dunno, not as big as Nairo and Choco losing.

 

[Dre89]

Yikes, I got attacked.

I never once said that they should fix their problems, they shouldn't. They take a character that is performing less than they think they should, slap on a good throw, call it a day.

Funny how Larry is the one on the fore front too, damn I must be hated.

No character should be changed to Sheik, because no character has the same play style as Sheik.

However, you say DK is fine as he is, I don't agree. I could see some minor changes that'd help the character. The character still has trouble in neutral, and still has a rough time off-stage. No amount of kill confirms off a grab will change his issues. I don't play DK, so I won't suggest the changes and I'll leave that to someone who knows more about the character.

I honestly believe Bowser is in a better position than DK. His jab on paper looks ridicious, but it's frame 7-9. If it was faster and didn't keep the same FAF we'd have Ike 2.0. Down Tilt comes out frame 10, but has only 22 frames of end lag, that's fast for a heavy character, F-Tilt has range and 24 frames fo endlag. The main issue Bowser has is getting his grabs into huge damage, and surviving disadvantage/landing, which won't be fixed anytime soon.

Bowser or DK getting slight buffs in Corrin/Bayonetta patch would not surprise me. Bowser will never get back to Demo status, and will likely not be high tier until he does.

Heavies are a flawed design in Smash. They usually have a bad hard time in competitive play. They usually are comboed too easily, usually don't have the speed to keep up with the agile speedsters and usually lack good frame data, the times when heavies become good is when they have outrageous properties that make them worthwile to use.

Only real exceptions are

Falcon - Lightning Bruiser. The concept of the fast heavy is either really good or not effective, depending on how strong the character gets. His somewhat bad frame data is offset by his sheer reward and killing power.

DDD - Chain Grabs. Another flawed concept in Smash.

Snake - Projectiles, traps, Up Tilt tilting people easier than you getting the move to hit because the hitbox is literally a country mile. Ike wields a mighty oak tree as a sword, Snake uses dimensions to attack you with his upward kick that magically hits you a mile away.

Ryu - A heavy who doesn't play like a heavy. I wonder why the concept works, he's barely a heavyweight at all, weight wise.

Word to the wise:

SV shares FD's ceiling data, unless you are on SV's platform, even then it isn't as bad as BF's top platform or TnC's platforms or DL's platforms, because they are so much closer to the top.

Why are you asking for buffs to DK's neutral when that is literally the weakness he's designed to have

Do you realise how broken he'd be if he won neutral as often as the top tiers?

Winning neutral in DK is where the skill in playing him comes from. It's what separates the good ones from the bad ones.

The throw buffs are just fine because it makes them threatening whilst keeping them big and slow. It means that they get to keep their intended weakness of a bad neutral, but make up for it by needing to win neutral less times than their opponent.

I'm sorry but if you're asking for DK buffs at this point, you don't realise how good he is at everything outside of neutral and disadvantage. You're basically just asking for him to have zero weaknesses so he doesn't require any skill to play whatsoever.

 

[Ffamran]

Why are you asking for buffs to DK's neutral when that is literally the weakness he's designed to have

Do you realise how broken he'd be if he won neutral as often as the top tiers?

Winning neutral in DK is where the skill in playing him comes from. It's what separates the good ones from the bad ones.

The throw buffs are just fine because it makes them threatening whilst keeping them big and slow. It means that they get to keep their intended weakness of a bad neutral, but make up for it by needing to win neutral less times than their opponent.

I'm sorry but if you're asking for DK buffs at this point, you don't realise how good he is at everything outside of neutral and disadvantage. You're basically just asking for him to have zero weaknesses so he doesn't require any skill to play whatsoever.

You could buff and nerf him at the same time instead. For one, DK's I-frames are a bit silly at times compared to Bowser's since they last much longer or begin earlier. Reductions in those could open up to buffs as compensation. Like, I don't know, Giant Punch not causing helpless mode for who knows why. It's basically a wind-up Falcon Punch. You don't see Captain Falcon give up in the air after using it and Ganondorf dies because he takes too long to use Warlock Punch. Imagine DK being able to use Giant Punch freely in the air. It would be one of the most devastating edgeguard moves. Or how about making it so Spinning Kong always connects in return for damage reduction? It does what? 36%? How about a guaranteed 26% with almost no chances of it dropping? And Down Smash should have a spike hitbox for airborne characters. I don't give a damn how stupid it would be considering DK's massive wingspan, but his Down Smash should drive you down like a hammer on a nail.

Also, hitbox fixing, but those seem like bug fixing rather than buffs or nerfs as the dysfunctional moves are just that. It's not like they're situational or bad, but completely failing their purpose like Zelda's Up and Side Smash did or Samus's Up Smash which sure, it can't hit low, but it's a good anti-air that's dysfunctional which overrides any merit it has. Meta Knight has good moves, but at launch on the 3DS, I would argue he was the worst character because he was dysfunctional; his moves failed their purpose of even basic hitting. That's much worse than having poor character design as while Zelda is heavily limited, she's functional to a degree.

 

[bc1910]

Saying DK is good at everything outside neutral and disadvantage only leaves advantage for him to be good at. There are only 3 game states. For DK to be bad at, by your own admission, 2 of them, is pretty poor.

 

[Nysyr]

So I'm starting to lean towards Cloud being Lucario's first -3 matchup (if ZSS wasn't already). Literally this character counters everything that Lucario has. Good god when people talk about limit break being okay I swear they are only taking in the top 5-6 fastest characters, and literally missing out on how much his toolkit dumps on the rest of the cast.

- His projectile cancels up to 120% AS
- Kills stupid early, negating aura. Literally just get Lucario to like 25% and fish for Finishing touches while accumulating a bit of rage and you are zero risk of dying, ever.
- Ridiculous disjoints at speeds none of the cast has had yet
- Good speed and no commit charge mechanic mean against slower characters he will ALWAYS have limit break. Like really?

You wonder why some characters got speed changes? Cloud is the reason why. I bet in playtesting they realised how much they ****ed up and how much the design clashed with current characters and changed them in a panic.

 

[Blobface]

Hold the phone.
You'll let MK, who is the king of "You got hit by X and you're dead" keep his kill confirm off grab because everything else does it but other kill confirms off grabs/50/50s are not okay?

The reward is in line with the rest of his moveset, so he's certainly not centralized around it. To be frank, not a fan of MK's design either but that's not what I'm talking about right now.

A lot of kill grab confirms have very strict percentages that require knowing DI, their percent AND your rage. Yes, DK can get a kill if he gets a grab at certain percents and confirms into up air. Yes, Bowser can do the same. Ike has 50/50s and true combos on a very limited amount of the cast, but 50/50s are that, unless your opponent is Sheik you can almost ALWAYS avoid 50/50s by pushing one button, jump

Having a limited percent range makes it worse. That just means landing things besides grab costs you a valuable tool. Besides, something requiring effort does not mean it's fine. Read: Shine.

If you can jump out of something it's not a 50/50.

We aren't in Diddy Kong era. You don't die at 80 to a kill confirm to a no rage Diddy using a frame 3 aerial to kill you earlier than heavies can. Grab confirms are a lot more balanced, and when the top list of the cast is full of bull****, characters need kill confirms to be effective.

If the that's why characters need grab confirms, wouldn't it be better to get rid of the "bull****" than to add more?

Ryu can confirm into a kill with a frame 6 move that is invincible frames 1-6 off a frame 2 move that kills you earlier at times than these kill confirms. Are we gonna call that to be removed next?

Grabs beat shield, light U-tilt doesn't. That's a massive difference.

 

[S_B]

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism of any specific characters. This is a criticism of grab design in general.

Bottom line, almost all killing grab confirms inherently overcentralize characters and are impossible to balance.

I agree with ZSS only because her game isn't necessarily centralized around her grab because she has some AMAZING tools outside of the grab.

But as for the rest, well, yes and no...

Every tool a character has can serve them in two key ways. First and foremost, it's an ability you can use in the game on your opponent. That's the obvious one.

Second, it's a ability your opponent might be AFRAID you will use on them in game, and therein lies the real trick in it.

If you do nothing but attempt to grab your opponent as Bowser, any decent opponent will wreck you. You are telegraphed and obvious, and the same holds true with any attack unless the character's ability to use it is so overwhelming that the opponent can literally do nothing to stop it or there just isn't enough counterplay to it (see pre-patch Diddy with bananas and hoo-haa).

If a MK player tries nothing but dash attacking in the hopes of setting up the combo, s/he should rightfully be destroyed.

Yes, there are characters that get incredible reward off of grabs, but if you're not good at using the rest of their tools (or the rest of their tools generally suck), you (or the character) will never get anywhere.

That said, I'd have preferred to see heavyweights get balanced through some means other than hoo-haas, but I don't think Sakurai really considered the competitive scene until AFTER SSB4 had been released and it was long too late to redesign characters like Bowser and DK to be on par with characters like Sheik and ZSS in a 1v1 setting.

I think we're going to have to wait for SSB5 for that to truly happen, and band-aid fixes are all we're getting in the meantime.

Is it ideal? No, but it's better that characters like Bowser and DK have an intimidation factor around what they can do to you upon a successful grab, and that alone is something a skilled player will exploit.

 

[Ffamran]

You wonder why some characters got speed changes? Cloud is the reason why. I bet in playtesting they realised how much they ****ed up and how much the design clashed with current characters and changed them in a panic.

Bold statement there. Some, as in 3 characters, and only 1 of them had a substantial effect. Kirby and Lucario went from being below-average to on the cusp of average for Kirby and slightly below-average for Lucario. Those were quality of life changes which admittedly, Kirby really wanted even if it's "minor" and which Lucario would just like to have since the gaps in speeds is huge.

If you're below average mobility-wise, then you're screwed, and if you're slow, you're ******. You need something to balance it out like Ike's top air speed is above-average - air acceleration is low, but it's okay - and his run speed is below average or Meta Knight has high run speed, but below-average air speed. Unfortunately, there are characters like Ganondorf and Zelda who are just plain slow. For Ganondorf, sure, balance since it would be stupid for a fast-hitting, strong heavyweight to be mobile while Zelda's just questionable... Seriously, she's... Ugh...

Mewtwo, on the other hand went from being above-average to fast. He jumped from 1.6-something near Wii Fit Trainer's run speed to Meta Knight's 1.9. That's at most, a 0.3 run speed increase to Kirby's 1.5 going to ~1.569 which is at least, a 0.069 increase. Noticeable? Sure, but compared to Mewtwo's? Not substantial enough to warrant a celebration. It's pretty much relative; Mewtwo going from above-average to fast is insane while Kirby and Lucario going from below-average to around average is okay... Similarly, let's say Fox's run speed matched Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's matched Olimar's. Fox would still be freaking fast while Ganondorf would go from slow to below-average; Fox would go from 2.184 to 2.32 and Ganondorf would go from 1.218 to 1.4. Fox players would be happy, but I bet they would rather have Melee Uair, Melee Reflector's hit frames, Brawl Reflector's total frames, even shorter total frames on Blaster, Brawl Up Smash's recovery frames, Melee? Fox Illusion's damage, and have Fire Fox be replaced with Twisting Fox as the default Up Special. Ganondorf players? Hooo, boy. You just made an angry tank into a happy APC.

3 characters isn't enough to conclude that the developers screwed up. Remember, this isn't Melee and this definitely isn't Brawl where all sort of dumb crap somehow made it through Q&A e.g. Falco's Blaster and Falco Phantasm. Also, all of the characters in Smash 4 barely came out broken. Not even 3DS Greninja, not 3DS Little Mac - Jab? Really? -, not pre-patch 1.1.6 Diddy, and not even Sheik and ZSS who pale in comparison to Melee Fox, Falco, and Marth and Brawl Meta Knight, Falco, and the Ice Climbers. You would need like 10 to 15 characters to have mobility changes and have about 7 of them be the slow ones like Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Link, Robin, Triple D, and Zelda to gain substantial mobility buffs to figure that something went horribly wrong, they couldn't fix it, so they let these characters have some chance of running. Kirby and Lucario? Quality of life buffs these character liked. Mewtwo? Maybe a design error where they really wanted Mewtwo to be this glass cannon who can rush, dish some damage, but is fragile like Fox. With his previous above-average run speed, Mewtwo was a glass cannon, but he didn't have the "right" mobility to rush in and do damage as he was just too slow - really, I mean it. Before, he was sort of a glass cannon punisher like Falco was, except being even lighter, not a fast faller, but an average-speed faller, and having a larger hurtbox meant Mewtwo could not take the damage Falco took.

 

[R3D3MON]

The reward is in line with the rest of his moveset, so he's certainly not centralized around it. To be frank, not a fan of MK's design either but that's not what I'm talking about right now.

If you can jump out of something it's not a 50/50.

I agree with this.

Wait a second, can someone please tell me what exactly a 50/50 is? Because I thought a 50/50 could always be avoided by correctly combo DIing and jumping. I would really appreciate clarifications.

Also on the topic of kill confirms: why are they considered bad in this game? I mean, people don't stop watching melee or stop enjoying the game or get super salty because kill confirms in melee, so why in Smash 4? Honestly I think it would be great if everybody had 1 or 2 working kill confirms after 100% (that does not have a 5% window, a.k.a. Game and Watch...) or so because some characters require reads to kill, and this isn't exactly the easiest thing to do when shielding is such a good defensive option and defensive options in general are very good in Smash 4. Also some characters that require reads to kill have mobility issues, which makes it even harder (poor Luigi).

 

[Nysyr]

You failed to take into account that these characters could in no way chase down or punish Cloud in any regard. Kirby+Mewtwo had some of the worst Ground + Air Manoeuvrability for extremely light characters. You can't by any means call Mewtwo fast in the air prior to 1.1.3. His Air acceleration is in the bottom 4 of the cast at 0.03. Kirby has some of the worst Air Speed, also in the bottom 4 of the cast. These characters both lack(ed) meaty options that could take advantage of Cloud's playstyle, with really no way to deal with Clouds' stupidly good mobility for the size of his disjoints.

Next patch I guarentee you will likely bring more of these changes or nerf Cloud in some way, once they have figured out how stupid run away + charge limit break is.

Edit: to the post below, lets call it the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You failed to take into account that these characters could in no way chase down or punish Cloud in any regard. Kirby+Mewtwo had some of the worst Ground + Air Manoeuvrability for extremely light characters. You can't by any means call Mewtwo fast in the air prior to 1.1.3. His Air acceleration is in the bottom 4 of the cast at 0.03. Kirby has some of the worst Air Speed, also in the bottom 4 of the cast. These characters both lack(ed) meaty options that could take advantage of Cloud's playstyle, with really no way to deal with Clouds' stupidly good mobility for the size of his disjoints.

Next patch I guarentee you will likely bring more of these changes or nerf Cloud in some way, once they have figured out how stupid run away + charge limit break is.

Kirby was/is bad against literally anyone with high mobility. The nerfs to shield REALLY hurt the character more than anything else (this coming from actual Kirby mains).

I'm almost positive they gave Kirby a run speed buff for basically all of his matchups, considering that I can't think of a single annoying matchup for him that this buff didn't slightly alter.

 

[san.]

I agree with this.

Wait a second, can someone please tell me what exactly a 50/50 is? Because I thought a 50/50 could always be avoided by correctly combo DIing and jumping. I would really appreciate clarifications.

Once you get to medium levels of knockback, you begin to air dodge (and even attack) earlier than you can jump out of hitstun. I see 50/50s as being able to kill combo on a character before they can jump, but after they can air dodge.

Sometimes, it's really tough to tell if you can jump out in time or not due to rage, staling, and the opponent's timing.

 

[TurboLink]

Does Cloud really need two relatively easy to land Meteor Smashes?

 

[R3D3MON]

Once you get to medium levels of knockback, you begin to air dodge (and even attack) earlier than you can jump out of hitstun. I see 50/50s as being able to kill combo on a character before they can jump, but after they can air dodge.

Sometimes, it's really tough to tell if you can jump out in time or not due to rage, staling, and the opponent's timing.

Okay, thank you for your clarification. At what % does shiek's d-throw 50-50 stop becoming a true 50-50? (with medium amount of rage and optimal DI). Also, does the percent window for the 50-50 vary wildly with rage?

 

[Browny]

That could be possible, but like I said depending on % Villager will probably be stronger than Smash Shulk at ~125 %.
As for Lucas and Mewtwo, those two weren't released at the time of my first bthrow KO testings so it's possible.

Let me test them real quick to make sure:

Lucas KOs Mario at 121 % at the edge if Mario holds back to the stage. So it's the same as Villagers. Villagers bthrow KOs Mario from the middle of Omega BF with DI/vectoring at 169.
[Villager [Bthrow] 169 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)]
Just tested Lucas now, and I can survive at even 200 % with Mario.

Pretty safe to assume that Lucas is stronger at first (where it doesn't really matter), is about the same when it's starting to get possible KOs at the earliest moments on edges of stages, but Villagers gets much stronger at later % (though Lucas has his uthrow anyway).

Mewtwos bthrow KOs Mario (with holding back) at 125 % at the edge. So yeah, stronger than Toon Link (127)... but at the middle of Omega BF I surivive with Mario at 190 % by just holding back to the stage and a little downwards. So later Toon Links is stronger.
[Toon Link [Bthrow] 183 (DI left/right against the throw + a bit down and doublejump)]
But that's at these high %s, so they're about the same with Mewtwos being slightly stronger at first with Toon Link getting the upper hand the higher the %s get.

As for Shulk, let's see... I survive at 195 %, get KO'd at 200, though.

So overall I'd say (though, it really just depends on how important you view the earliest possible KOs at edges):

1 Ness (super duper strong)
2 Villager (really high KBG)
3-4 Toon Link (stronger than Mewtwo at ~135+)
3-4 Mewtwo (stronger than Toon Link before ~135)
5 Shulk (Smash) (really strong at first, but gets weaker at higher %s)
6 Lucas (pretty strong at first, but gets weaker the higher the %s go)

Even if you see Shulk and Lucas as higher up than Tink and Mewtwo, I'd definitely put Villager at #2.
Not sure about how it is with some other characters and their KBG. That's just the ones from your list.

Well, to be fair, I didn't explicitly state it in my original post and I should have, but I considered the %'s where lucas/mewtwos bthrow kills later than their uthrow, to be moot.

If we are going to test the strongest bthrows we need to consider doing it at the edge since if we wanted to be really pedantic, it is actually possible to KO certain characters with Mewtwos uthrow earlier than it is with Ness' bthrow from the centre of certain stages. That throws a lot of beliefs out the window.

Coincidentally, 135% is exactly the point where Mewtwos uthrow KOs Mario with perfect DI, hence at no time is Toon Links kill throw stronger than mewtwos u or bthrow on any legal stage. Lucas is the same deal, his bthrow is stronger at the ledge but as you move closer to centre stage, the % where his uthrow kills is earlier than Toon Links bthrow.

Smash Shulk is the only one really out of place there because his really depends on being right at the edge.

Of course your numbers are correct, but if we factor in who kills the earliest from throws, it is a little bit misleading to compare mewtwo using a backthrow at 135%.

I don't remember perfectly but I believe its something like this.

Ness has the #1 kill throw pretty much everywhere
Lucas has the #2 from the absolute edge
Villager has #3 from a bit in towards the stage heading towards centre
Mewtwo takes over the #2 spot as you get more centre stage

Smash shulk fits somewhere in there, not sure.

 

[san.]

Okay, thank you for your clarification. At what % does shiek's d-throw 50-50 stop becoming a true 50-50? (with medium amount of rage and optimal DI). Also, does the percent window for the 50-50 vary wildly with rage?

It depends on the character. The general trend is that uair won't kill you when it true combos, and you can jump out by the time it can kill you. However, there are still times where it can just kill you; it helps when the throw is stale, the uair is fresh, and you're playing on a lower ceiling like Town & City.

 

[Ffamran]

You failed to take into account that these characters could in no way chase down or punish Cloud in any regard. Kirby+Mewtwo had some of the worst Ground + Air Manoeuvrability for extremely light characters. You can't by any means call Mewtwo fast in the air prior to 1.1.3. His Air acceleration is in the bottom 4 of the cast at 0.03. Kirby has some of the worst Air Speed, also in the bottom 4 of the cast. These characters both lack(ed) meaty options that could take advantage of Cloud's playstyle, with really no way to deal with Clouds' stupidly good mobility for the size of his disjoints.

Next patch I guarentee you will likely bring more of these changes or nerf Cloud in some way, once they have figured out how stupid run away + charge limit break is.

Edit: to the post below, lets call it the straw that broke the camel's back.

Specifically on Mewtwo, on the ground, he was above-average prior to patch 1.1.3 where he's now fast. Even with poor air acceleration, his top air speed is one of the best. Does it even matter? Yeah, at a top speed, he's going to go fast, but normally, Mewtwo will be slow in the air. That being said, I would rather have insane air acceleration and bad air speed like Palutena and Pikachu or poor air acceleration and high air speed like Ike and Mewtwo than poor air speed and average air acceleration.

Kirby's just slow in general and the buff just helped him out in general like TTTTTsd said. In my opinion, he should have shared the same run speed as Mario and Ryu than being just below it. Also, in a chaotic game that can be played FFA to competitive 1v1 like this, I feel like no character in this game should have a running speed below 1.3 (or even 1.4). There's 4 of them and only 1 of them has a redeeming factor with high air speed, Jigglypuff and 1 of them can at least cover their poor ground speed with projectiles like Falco did in Melee and Brawl. Ganondorf and Robin? Even if Ganondorf can stone wall everything, it's still kind of stupid how almost everyone can run circles around him while Robin's... Why?

On Cloud: he's way too damn fast. For a character that strong to have that much range, that much power, and hit that fast also move fast while moving even faster in EX Mode... Oh, but his recovery balances him out... Yeah, and so does poor air movement in general for Little Mac. Also, Little Mac doesn't have disjoints, high active frames, or aerials... in general and ones that auto-cancel like Cloud was an ice skater. Cloud has by default: Ike and Roy's jump height - so, low aerials -, Sheik's air speed, what looks like Roy's air mobility which is probably average, almost Ike's fall speed, Roy's run speed and some more, Mario's walk speed, Marth-Roy hit frames, Ike's auto-cancel that borderlines Fox's, Rosalina's high active aerials, Ike to Shulk's range, Ike's power, and a bigger Wolf Blaster. With full Limit, his run speed becomes ZSS to Fox's, walk speed to almost Falco's, he has Greninja's charged Water Shuriken, and Dancing Blade or Double Edge Dance if they killed... ~50% earlier and totally confirmed with 1, frame 10 hit that made them invincible for frames 6-11, and Little Mac's KO Punch if you couldn't lose, but it doesn't bypass shields.

Am I being a ***** as I complain about a weeks-old character? Yes? Do I care? No. Also, in other news: today, I learned that Sheik's Up Smash makes her head and arms invincible for frames 8-15... Probably explains why nobody could challenge it... So, developers... Could we give some of that I-frame lovin' to Falco's Up Smash? We totally need it to anti-air stuff.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Kirby was/is bad against literally anyone with high mobility. The nerfs to shield REALLY hurt the character more than anything else (this coming from actual Kirby mains).

Uhhhh.....Fox,ZSS(Mike thinks its pretty much even) Captain falcon? Maybe even Shiek.

Mike says that the nerfs to shield made little to no difference and that people should stop complaining and play, which is correct of course.