Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[C0rvus]

In order for a character to exist in competitive top level play, they need to either:

A: Be Sheik

or

B: Not get destroyed by Sheik.

I think this is rule number 1 for the most part.

 

[Ulevo]

This is why I think if Cloud, Corrin, or Bayonetta turn out to have strong matchups up against Cosmic Paula Deen and her Butter Star, I could see Ness players picking them up as secondaries. I think this is a big thing that hurts Ness players is that Rosalina doesn't really have any decent counters and you just have to choose someone who breaks even or sucks less against her.

Meta Knight.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

In order for a character to exist in competitive top level play, they need to either:

A: Be Sheik

or

B: Not get destroyed by Sheik.

I think this is rule number 1 for the most part.

Mmhm, nice analysis m8

 

[Patriot Duck]

The charging hitbox on Fsmash, which I don't think that's what it is

At the risk of going off topic, I'd like to clear this up.

Listen closely at the very beginning of the WFT clip. You can hear a "clink" noise. It's the same sound effect that is heard when sword fighters like Marth and Roy begin charging their smashes.

Now pay attention to Corrin's dragon fang. Throughout the clip it produces little white sparkles. You can see these sparkles when charging most smash attacks in the game.

And, of course, at the end of the clip Corrin immediately transitions into the forward smash animation.

So, it's pretty safe to say Corrin has a hitbox while charging his forward smash. It could have utility.

 

[Teshie U]

Yea, i thought that was pretty clear already. The charging hits hold you in place then you get stabbed.

It might not actually increase in power from charging though. That would be kind of broken if close range guaranteed a full charge hit.

 

[LancerStaff]

At the risk of going off topic, I'd like to clear this up.

Listen closely at the very beginning of the WFT clip. You can hear a "clink" noise. It's the same sound effect that is heard when sword fighters like Marth and Roy begin charging their smashes.

Now pay attention to Corrin's dragon fang. Throughout the clip it produces little white sparkles. You can see these sparkles when charging most smash attacks in the game.

And, of course, at the end of the clip Corrin immediately transitions into the forward smash animation.

So, it's pretty safe to say Corrin has a hitbox while charging his forward smash. It could have utility.

First thing I did after he pointed that out was find that video, actually.

It's neat and all but he's holding his sword in a way that a ton of dash attacks will go underneath, and I doubt it links into Fsmash reliably if at all. Most likely it's just meager protection like Ness had, although the main move seems to be a decently powerful move at least. I mean... It's technically a good thing but then they're going to "balance" him in a way most of us could care less for to compensate like, well, Zelda.

 

[Deleted member]

Yea, i thought that was pretty clear already. The charging hits hold you in place then you get stabbed.

It might not actually increase in power from charging though. That would be kind of broken if close range guaranteed a full charge hit.

Sakurai mentions later in the direct that the move has a sweetspot at the tip, so it's probably not that strong at the range where the chainsaw would actually hit.

 

[Mario766]

- The good: onstage game is practically equal, seems to outrange him more for attacks that matter, better offstage game. The bad: Blade beam is annoying and can interrupt aether, can be somewhat juggled by him.

Cloud's aerials actually out-range ours. Our reward on hit is better outside of juggles, and up throw combos until kill percents. Grab at 90-110 is basically death, as we get up throw F-Air/up throw u-air for true combos, like Sheik/Falcon. Cloud is perfect gravity, Limit or No Limit, for our combos. Cloud isn't terribly safe with his neutrals against us, outside of things like spaced F-Air. Our kill set-ups last for a long time and off-stage Cloud without Limit is one of the easiest for us. D-Air crushes Cloud regardless of if you get the spike or the regular hit, and if he tries to up-b too high and has to dip down we can shield grab it for really easy kills, due to our low trajectory sending Cloud nearly horizontal. In M2K vs Ryo, M2K got shield grabbed out of up-b at 30 and instantly died due to no double jump.

The main bad is the juggles, and we're pretty easy to punish. Ike wants Cloud to do something and punish him, but if Cloud plays super lame and goes for punishes/Limit Charge the MU becomes a lot different. Ike's gonna want early gimps for his gameplan to work, otherwise it's a slug fest.

 

[Rizen]

Just.... go back a number of pages, we've already had this discussion in detail.

tl;dr: you're falling the the "Trela Mewtwo" situation. Don't do that. Needs a month minimum, everything until that point is irrelevant-but-interesting. With Christmas happening I think 6 weeks might be more realistic.

What do people not understand about 'first impressions'? Subject to change, an early glance, not set in stone, initial observation, a quick opinion, weighed lightly, not to be taken seriously, taken with a grain of salt, not counting chickens before they hatch; I don't know how I can be any clearer.

I'm not deciding anything; I'm trying to state my early opinion and maybe get some feedback from tournament players. If you don't want to talk about Cloud then don't. Problem solved.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

dunno how many people know this yet but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: I actually haven't begun to appreciate how stupid dair is yet. One of the fastest (frame 11) meteors in the game, one of the strongest meteors in the game (15%!!), alongside big disjointed hitboxes, very meaty (32 active hitbox frames)... and it autocancels straight after!

 

[FallofBrawl]

Don't worry some people get very uppity when you talk about Cloud in a competitive impressions thread.

For a character to be top tier, I don't think throw game is important if the character has good frame data (see Fox, Cloud, Ryu), it's nice to have but it's not high in that criteria. If I had a rating system on what characters needed to be top tier this game, it would probably be (1 being most important- 9 being least important):

1. Ability to force an approach (I guess Neutral can kinda fall under here)
2. Good advantage state (MK and ZSS) (Punishing/Edge-guarding falls here too)
3. A safe way to approach (Also part of neutral)
4. Kill confirms
5. Good mobility (5th important because of Ness and Villager)
6. Good disadvantaged state
7. Throw Game
8. Raw Kill Power
9. Ability to Pressure Shield

EDIT: Don't mean to brag but looking back at what I just luckily threw together for this criteria, I think it's really good to use to determine where a character is in the meta.

 

[Rizen]

Anyway, has Peach gotten results in tournaments lately? She seems like a sleeper character who is out shined by top tiers but is pretty good.

 

[Mario766]

People didn't know that cloud's dair auto cancelled one frame after the hitbox ends? The animation is pretty clear about it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

People didn't know that cloud's dair auto cancelled one frame after the hitbox ends? The animation is pretty clear about it.

I didn't notice after like, 300 games of Cloud. Maybe I'm just unobservant.

 

[san.]

I wasn't sure if dair was 1 frame after the hitbox or just a few frames after the hitbox. To me, they were the same thing anyways =/.

Hitboxes on Cloud:

Cloud's nair's hitbox is shorter than the visual animation. It's roughly the same size as Ike's nair, if not marginally larger due to a wider swing arc. I reckon that Cloud's nair hits farther above and behind him in the initial swing. Cloud's nair has better disjoint though since Cloud uses the blade for the whole hitbox, while Ike extends his arm a little bit, exposing a bit more of his hurtbox.

Cloud's fair doesn't have a hitbox at the very top. The top hitbox location of fair feels like 1.0.4 Ike.

Cloud's bair doesn't reach as far as the visual animation on the upper sections, where bair seems to swing upwards a bit. I could barely get it to outrange or match Ike's fair in range.

Uair and dair's hitboxes seem to match just fine (aka, uair is still extremely good =p)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

All it takes is good normals and options for every situation. And then you're good.

 

[bc1910]

I really don't like how people are really, really jumping the gun on Cloud, mainly because they main him and think he's the wonder child of sword fighter characters (no, that's Meta Knight). It's funny honestly, because he has so many attacks that can be punished by almost every character in the game. N-Air can be punished by a shield and a grab, U-Air can be mixed up, F-Air is unsafe on shield and can be air dodged, D-Air can be beaten by any roll and counterattack or a longer-reaching attack or projectile, F-Smash is doomed on shield, D-Smash is unsafe if the opponent shields, D-Tilt is not safe against shield and can be grabbed or Cloud can get hit out of it by many different D-Smashes. When you see that he can be easily punished, it is evident. But Cloud zealots will refute this evidence as false of course, if not most of it, despite it being true.

Cloud can be one of the easiest characters to edge-guard in this game by far and it's all thanks to him having only one recovery method and a linear path that most players would opt to go with him. It's actually not that hard to predict and punish Cloud's recovery at all. Since he doesn't cling to the edge, a character like Ganondorf can just U-Air, B-Air, F-Air or D-Air Cloud, and Cloud is doomed without Limit. In fact, one F-Tilt from Ganondorf is enough to doom Cloud, even if Cloud has his second jump, but no Limit.

Even without tournament results, however, Ganondorf has a positive MU against Cloud. Ganondorf is actually able to mix-up with Cloud's U-Air and unlike Cloud, Ganondorf's D-Spec, Wizard's Foot, kills extremely early on the non-meteor hitbox. So Cloud just really can't afford going for a U-Air like that. Cloud may have a better jab attack, but that can just be punished by Ganondorf's regular grab. Some of Cloud's attacks are almost as slow as Ganondorf's, if not slower than his attacks, bar U-Tilt. However, Ganondorf's endlag on attacks such as F-Smash and U-Smash are significantly faster than Cloud's, thus allowing Ganondorf to act out an attack earlier than Cloud.

Going to the slower-than attacks, Cloud's F-Air will NOT be able to beat Ganondorf's due to having 18 frames compared to Ganondorf's 14. Cloud's B-Air is also slower than Ganondorf's and cannot autocancel like Ganondorf's does, but these are simple facts you can look up on Kuroganehammer's website. Cloud and Ganondorf's grab data are exactly the same as well, only with Dash Grab and Pivot Grab's frame datas being reversed for the two.

Now even with Cloud's high ground mobility, now, Ganondorf can easily punish Cloud with grabs or various attacks thanks to some of Cloud's attacks having the disadvantage of coming toward the opponent when used. Where Cloud does NOT have a combo grab, Ganondorf does, and he can use it hard on Cloud for some devastating damage. And remember, at medium to high damages starting past 70% damage, if you're on the edge of the stage as Cloud and get hit by Ganondorf's F-Tilt, it won't matter if you have the second jump, if you don't have Limit, you're dead. Ganondorf can either follow up or you just went too low to recover.

Oh, and I wouldn't advise using any of Cloud's attacks such as F-Smash, D-Tilt or Cross Slash against Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, especially reversed. Cloud is actually a character who Ganondorf CAN use Warlock Punch reliably on and it's all due to Cloud's poor options against Ganondorf's Punch outside of grab.

From my experience against Cloud players, 3 specific characters who people may think are bad against him are actually very good against him and that's Falco, Link and Ganondorf. When you know how to actually not praise Cloud for his average prowess (seriously, his attacks are just average, only his N-Air is spectacular) and instead know how to punish him, it's going to be clear that he's an upper middle tier or lower high tier.

His recovery and frame data are to blame here. He might have good Limit tools, but if you only look at how poor he is without it, Cloud can be taken down a notch or two. He's not going to be another top tier or upper high tier sword fighter like Meta Knight, and he's not going to beat Ike nor Link. If anything, he's going to be directly below Link, but still above Toon Link.

Then again, you might call me wrong and refute my facts as false, when I actually know what I'm talking about.

You talk absolute ****ing nonsense and then end with a statement intended to immortalize your post, by making people scared of rebutting said nonsense?

Stay classy, Larry.

Let's hope this was the butt end of 2015 and not an indication of how you intend to continue posting in 2016.

Happy New Year everyone.

 

[Ffamran]

dunno how many people know this yet but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: I actually haven't begun to appreciate how stupid dair is yet. One of the fastest (frame 11) meteors in the game, one of the strongest meteors in the game (15%!!), alongside big disjointed hitboxes, very meaty (32 active hitbox frames)... and it autocancels straight after!

I was wondering about that since you had its last active frame at 28? - yes, with an actual question mark - and now that I checked... at 42. So, does that mean the game files are wrong or something? Welp, time to fix my active and recovery frame sheets... AGAIN.

Also, screw Villager's aerials. Said it before, but I can't say it enough. Freaking 3 aerials that linger near or on Villager's damn body. AND SHE'S SMALL TOO! Freaking Uair is just 2 frames faster than Dair... Let me repeat: it's just 2 frames faster than Dair. Absolutely freaking no changes to its last active frame, so it has 2 extra active frames over Dair just 'cause. 26-freaking active frames... 26! Sure, it only spikes for the first 2, but really!? Hell, they both share the same landing frames of 15 and auto-cancel windows of after 39 - different befores since Uair begins faster. Yeah, let's have this character that can go deep off-stage have lingering disjoints that can spike, have low landing lag, and auto-cancel easily. And then there's Nair that auto-cancels 4 frames after the hitbox ends while being a frame 3 hit whose last active frame is 23.

 

[Vipermoon]

dunno how many people know this yet but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: I actually haven't begun to appreciate how stupid dair is yet. One of the fastest (frame 11) meteors in the game, one of the strongest meteors in the game (15%!!), alongside big disjointed hitboxes, very meaty (32 active hitbox frames)... and it autocancels straight after!

And the spike lasts 3 ****ing frames!!! That is unheard of for a swordie let alone a frame 11 spike. If you don't get the spike, it otherwise has very powerful vertical knockback.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I was wondering about that since you had its last active frame at 28? - yes, with an actual question mark - and now that I checked... at 42. So, does that mean the game files are wrong or something? Welp, time to fix my active and recovery frame sheets... AGAIN.

Also, screw Villager's aerials. Said it before, but I can't say it enough. Freaking 3 aerials that linger near or on Villager's damn body. AND SHE'S SMALL TOO! Freaking Uair is just 2 frames faster than Dair... Let me repeat: it's just 2 frames faster than Dair. Absolutely freaking no changes to its last active frame, so it has 2 extra active frames over Dair just 'cause. 26-freaking active frames... 26! Sure, it only spikes for the first 2, but really!? Hell, they both share the same landing frames of 15 and auto-cancel windows of after 39 - different befores since Uair begins faster. Yeah, let's have this character that can go deep off-stage have lingering disjoints that can spike, have low landing lag, and auto-cancel easily. And then there's Nair that auto-cancels 4 frames after the hitbox ends while being a frame 3 hit whose last active frame is 23.

No I just was terrible at reading and saw it as an asynchronous timer instead of a synchronous timer. =]

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Late Dair confirms everything from footstools to Finishing Touch.
It's one hell of a move

 

[DunnoBro]

Villager's spacial and positional coverage is actually pretty ridiculous. Horizontally you can't outspace him, vertically you can't can't beat his moves so gotta space/bait super hard. Being a floaty with a superb nair who has no qualms about DIing to the depths offstage makes him doubly safe.

But this only makes him hard to gain momentum vs, he doesn't really gain much himself and kind of desperately needs to keep the lead/incentive for them to approach.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Villager's spacial and positional coverage is actually pretty ridiculous. Horizontally you can't outspace him, vertically you can't can't beat his moves so gotta space/bait super hard. Being a floaty with a superb nair who has no qualms about DIing to the depths offstage makes him doubly safe.

But this only makes him hard to gain momentum vs, he doesn't really gain much himself and kind of desperately needs to keep the lead/incentive for them to approach.

What character do you main now?

 

[DunnoBro]

What character do you main now?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Nu~]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well if you like projectile setups and neat creative tech...
You should try pacman :^)

 

[Ffamran]

And the spike lasts 3 ****ing frames!!! That is unheard of for a swordie let alone a frame 11 spike. If you don't get the spike, it otherwise has very powerful vertical knockback.

Uh... Link's Mortal Blow spikes on frames 14-17 which means it has 4 active spike frames. Problem is that it's hella slow compared to Cloud's. Oh, and Toon Link's spikes on frames 17-25, so 9 active spike frames. Problem with his, outside of speed which is everyone's problem with Dair, is that you're going to die off-stage. Shulk's multi-hit Dair spikes on frames 23-24, but if you manage to get the first hit which you will, then its total is 4 active frames.

Outside of that... the only unfortunate spikers that are swordsmen are Lucina, Marth, and the Pits where they have to hit with exactly 1 frame. After that, 2 spike frames are kind of common and for swordsmen, that's Ike, Robin, Roy, and technically Shulk. 3 frames is kind of common, but for swordsmen, it's only Cloud and Link. And then you have Toon Link.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well if you like projectile setups and neat creative tech...
You should try pacman :^)

Pacman's imo the 2nd most fun character to play in the game. I deeply regret not directly going to him after DHD not panning out, but I was still hoping for buffs

I was actually trying to play with Zage more to learn pacman as he lives 4 mins from me, but school really shuts him down.

 

[Browny]

at least for the first three years or so.

For this game, I've kind of noticed that too. are unquestionably high tier, most people agree that are on the high end of mid tier at worst with plenty of room to grow and develop, and that has a 90% of being on the high end of high tier.

Why? Because the trailer showed her having a combo attack which was clearly stated to have high start-up?

Which character in smash history has even been a good character that relies on slow attacks in order to initiate their combos, damaging or kill combos.

For all we know it could be like Mewtwos disable, having a frame 16 combo starting move is almost worthless.

We dont know how easy her combos are to start but we do know it is considered slow.

 

[FallofBrawl]

They literally compared one of her moves (ftilt/which doesn't start the crazier combos unless you count ftilting 3 times a combo) to Mario's ftilt (frame 5). Stop with this unreleased character nonsense please, they change before they're downloadable.

Cloud's dair and up air are great and all, but nair doesn't get enough credit. That move leads into a lot depending where it hits, and it can confirm into limit Side B at 60

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Why? Because the trailer showed her having a combo attack which was clearly stated to have high start-up?

Which character in smash history has even been a good character that relies on slow attacks in order to initiate their combos, damaging or kill combos.

For all we know it could be like Mewtwos disable, having a frame 16 combo starting move is almost worthless.

We dont know how easy her combos are to start but we do know it is considered slow.

I'm guessing that Up-B is at least decently fast, since it comes out immediately after Side B in the direct? So, if nothing else, she has Up-B OOS to start strings with.

Don't forget Witch Time, too. She lands that, she gets whatever combo starter she chooses to invent in the moment.

You're right, though, we're all counting our eggs about two months early. Once Bayonetta's released, we can see if the trailer is an accurate portrayal of her true playstyle.

 

[Smog Frog]

disable being frame 16 is NOT the reason why it's mediocre(it's not bad)

it's that they HAVE to be facing you, grounded, and for some characters standing. also it can't be b-reversed.

 

[L9999]

disable being frame 16 is NOT the reason why it's mediocre(it's not bad)

it's that they HAVE to be facing you, grounded, and for some characters standing. also it can't be b-reversed.

Its range sucks as well, and it can be reflected to punish Mewtwo.

 

[Smog Frog]

it actually has decent horizontal range(it's on par with his dtilt)

 

[Antonykun]

let's just take a deep breath and analyze what it takes for a character to be a threat in the current meta.

consistent Throw combos that can sometimes (not once-in-a-blue-moon sometimes) lead to death is the leading cause of being a threat in the current meta

 

[Baby_Sneak]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your name is your answer lol. try between villager, or one of the links (other zoners like pacman, robin?, oilmar, or mega man? Can be good, but I chose to narrow it down to make it easier). Or choose one of those in the parenthesis idk, go neeny meeny minny mo or somethin.

Speaking of zoners, What would the meta look like if a zoner ruled the game?

 

[Y2Kay]

Your name is your answer lol. try between villager, or one of the links (other zoners like pacman, robin?, oilmar, or mega man? Can be good, but I chose to narrow it down to make it easier). Or choose one of those in the parenthesis idk, go neeny meeny minny mo or somethin.

Speaking of zoners, What would the meta look like if a zoner ruled the game?

Mewtwo would actually be respected!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Mewtwo would actually be respected!

True, and now I'm going to try to make something interesting out of this:

I've always thought of projectile- users as the characters that brought you back to the old-school style, which is street fighter. Projectiles inherently limit your freedom by controlling the space around you and forcing you to move in specific ways to avoid damage. Projectile users force you to locate their pattern and exploit in order to get close, which is what you would do against sagat, ryu and guile. In brawl, falco, oilmar, snake and diddy Kong were some of the characters that forced you to perform footsies with them by restricting the area around you and making you respect their space. This forced you to get inside their head and beat them that way. So, now since this hypothetical character is at the top, he's definitely gonna force people to play a certain way often. People are going to know how to deal with the "fireball" game very well and their fundamentals are going to get better.

Basically, I'm just saying the fundamentals of smashers would get better with a zoner at the top since it brings back old, but invaluable principles (hope that make sense).

 

[Blobface]

Villager's spacial and positional coverage is actually pretty ridiculous. Horizontally you can't outspace him, vertically you can't can't beat his moves so gotta space/bait super hard. Being a floaty with a superb nair who has no qualms about DIing to the depths offstage makes him doubly safe.

But this only makes him hard to gain momentum vs, he doesn't really gain much himself and kind of desperately needs to keep the lead/incentive for them to approach.

I'm not really sure how it is for other characters, but while Villagers recovery is great for distance it's horridly vulnerable against characters that can outright kill offstage like Ganon. It's still one of the best, especially if she doesn't go super deep, but in my experience she can't just go to the bottom blast zone then get back for free.

 

[TriTails]

What do people not understand about 'first impressions'? Subject to change, an early glance, not set in stone, initial observation, a quick opinion, weighed lightly, not to be taken seriously, taken with a grain of salt, not counting chickens before they hatch; I don't know how I can be any clearer.

I'm not deciding anything; I'm trying to state my early opinion and maybe get some feedback from tournament players. If you don't want to talk about Cloud then don't. Problem solved.

I'm seriously late, but 'first impressions' you are saying people did are exactly the same on how people already trying to determine matchups freaking ratios.

I was wondering about that since you had its last active frame at 28? - yes, with an actual question mark - and now that I checked... at 42. So, does that mean the game files are wrong or something? Welp, time to fix my active and recovery frame sheets... AGAIN.

Also, screw Villager's aerials. Said it before, but I can't say it enough. Freaking 3 aerials that linger near or on Villager's damn body. AND SHE'S SMALL TOO! Freaking Uair is just 2 frames faster than Dair... Let me repeat: it's just 2 frames faster than Dair. Absolutely freaking no changes to its last active frame, so it has 2 extra active frames over Dair just 'cause. 26-freaking active frames... 26! Sure, it only spikes for the first 2, but really!? Hell, they both share the same landing frames of 15 and auto-cancel windows of after 39 - different befores since Uair begins faster. Yeah, let's have this character that can go deep off-stage have lingering disjoints that can spike, have low landing lag, and auto-cancel easily. And then there's Nair that auto-cancels 4 frames after the hitbox ends while being a frame 3 hit whose last active frame is 23.

Dis is why I play Marth. Nothing to complain being too stronk about.

I'm not really sure how it is for other characters, but while Villagers recovery is great for distance it's horridly vulnerable against characters that can outright kill offstage like Ganon. It's still one of the best, especially if she doesn't go super deep, but in my experience she can't just go to the bottom blast zone then get back for free.

She has fair control of the move, but yeah, vulnerable otherwise.

I have ever hit the balloons with Ganon's D-air and the hitlag was so stronk that Villy was spiked anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 

[Mario766]

Late Dair confirms everything from footstools to Finishing Touch.
It's one hell of a move

Late Dair is Cloud's best combo starter, just good luck getting it on someone who doesn't randomly drop shield against it.

Late Dair -> Footstool -> D-Air (Spike) -> Landing U-Air -> FT? Ez

37 damage, FT with no rage will kill people off a U-Air at like ~45. You could legitimately carry someone from 0 to death just off a late Dair if you get a DI read.

Limit D-Air is auto cancelled if you FH too, so there's nothing special either. If Cloud had a throw that led into a footstool the character would be legit busted.

You'd get grabbed at 0 and your stock lost like it's ZSS, but without you being able to DI it.

Cloud with a real throw game + auto snap up-b is 100 percent top tier, thank god that doesn't exist.