Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Ffamran]

I get that drawing conclusions on a weeks old character is dumb, but why not attempt to consider matchups from what we know? The impression of an MU is still a talking point. Are we just supposed to ignore Cloud until he's a year old?

The problem is definite conclusions like the Fox stomps Cloud thing? That was a set against a developed character and player vs. a new character and developed player. The other part is that I cannot recall any recent sets involving Cloud vs. Falco except for this one between Trela and Dao, a top player vs. an all right player. Even then, that's one set. Cloud, just like Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu need more time before we can draw conclusions or even assume things. We can discuss theory about what happens, but even then it's still grasping at things time won't be telling now, but later. Also, I think it's pointless to discuss Cloud against characters like Falco. Even if, hypothetically, Cloud gets stomped on by Falco, Cloud still has 57 other characters, 2 not out yet, where he could go at worst, even and still be fine while Falco still has to run the gauntlet against the common DK, Luigi, Rosalina, Ryu, and ZSS players and uncommon Bowser, Lucina, Marth, the Pits, Robin, Shulk, and Triple D - this one's more of if you don't know what you're doing, then Triple D's going to wreck you for not knowing - players. Characters that give him trouble or don't give a damn what he does.

 

[Rizen]

I think Cloud's been out long enough to have a good idea of how his MUs go in his current meta. I agree we shouldn't chisel anything in stone but he's not completely new anymore. IMO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A few weeks, while during Christmas break for most people?

Nowhere near long enough to have an idea of how his MUs go.

 

[Nobie]

Two weeks. Really. Two weeks?

 

[Nu~]

Yeah...

We still don't know the matchup spreads of most mid tiers lol

 

[C0rvus]

Not saying call his MUs; I couldn't tell you a single character's full MU spread. Just discuss our impressions, as per the thread title. Gameplay is far from conclusive at this point. That Dao set was fun to watch though. It also illustrates the issue. This guy took a game off of Trela, which might make this thread explode in both directions under different circumstances.

Man, I can't wait until we get 2 promising looking characters at the same time. This whole site is going to be a mess.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, the only things I'm really comfortable saying about Cloud's matchups right now are that he's probably at an advantage against characters that traditionally don't do well vs. disjoint (e.g. Peach) and that camping him out isn't that brilliant an idea since that's just free Limit charging for him, so keeping pressure on him is probably your best bet.

 

[LancerStaff]

Man, I can't wait until we get 2 promising looking characters at the same time. This whole site is going to be a mess.

I'm still not seeing what everybody else sees in Corrin... Looks like another character built like Zelda and Palutena.

 

[Nu~]

I'm still not seeing what everybody else sees in Corrin... Looks like another character built like Zelda and Palutena.

How so?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

You think beats Cloud? Interesting.

I've been meaning to ask about the bird because I'm heavily considering him as a secondary. Is he any good against ? Much like how Ginko has a pocket for his anti-zoning prowess, I see similarities in Falco. I also discovered how much I love to box with opponents, and Falco's normals seem very good. Big 2 frame jab? Check. Excellent autocancel aerials in bair and up air? Check.

What are peoples' opinions of Falco? I know FOW has a pocket Falco for for some reason.

I think Falco is a pretty decent character who will get better as his metagame develops.

His advantageous state is one of the best in the game. Falco gets a ridiculous amount of reward off his combo starters (D-Tilt, U-Tilt, Dash Attack, U-Throw). You can deal alot of damage off of a combo (around 40%) with stuff thats mostly guaranteed if you factor in frame traps and such. Falco is also one of the more potent edge guarders in the game due to his Fair and Nair's lingering hitboxes, allowing them to intercept / semispike various recoveries. He also has a rather strong spike in his Dair, as well as a good ledge trumping game with Falco Phantasm. His juggle game is extremely good as well.

His neutral, while not amazing, isn't terrible either. He has a strong up close game thanks to his jab and D-Tilt and a decent enough long range game thanks to his blaster and reflector, allowing him to force approaches against some characters. A lot of his moves are safe on Shield when spaced (i.e. Fair, Bair, D-Tilt, F-Tilt), which is really good. While his mobility is rather lackluster, its good enough so that he won't struggle dealing with things such as rolling. Speaking of rolling, Falco also has amazing rolls that cover a lot of distance, which can be a useful asset.

His disadvantage state is bad, but Falco has decent enough tools so that he can escape it. His jab and frame 3 Nair are good at interrupting some combos and his Fair is really good as a landing option. His recovery is crap though. While it does cover a long distance, its extremely linear, making it easy to edge guard. At the very least, it isn't as bad as fox's since his side B comes out much faster and he has a much better double jump.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Of the characters I consistently play as, here's my basic thoughts on Cloud so far:

- The good: Decent offstage game against him, mecha koopa blocks both forms of the blade beam. The bad: Landing is a huge pain, koopa kart approaches are very easy to punish as Cloud, god help you if you whiff anything because you will be punished hard.

- The good: Decent offstage game against him, Dedede can eat the Limit Break blade beam if necessary. The bad: pretty much forces you to approach, good luck side dodging anything of his because of how fat you are, it's embarrassingly easy to get juggled by him, gordo on stage feels useless in this match up.

- The good: onstage game is practically equal, seems to outrange him more for attacks that matter, better offstage game. The bad: Blade beam is annoying and can interrupt aether, can be somewhat juggled by him.

- The good: FLUDD feels really useful in this match up, bread and butter throw set ups work well, one of the better offstage tool kits in the game. The bad: he has better range.

-The good: Lot of tools to annoy him with, good at keeping offstage pressure/baiting certain recovery attempts The bad: landing against Cloud feels tricky, he can kill you easier than you can kill him.

-The good: easy to toy with Cloud offstage, fairly easy to force Cloud offstage with him, can absorb/reflect blade beam. The bad: Cloud's sword seems to trump a lot of Ness's aerials, basic throw set ups seem less effective thanks to this, shield grabs feel harder to come by against Cloud's moves.

- The good: Pocket can be an ace in the hole if they're careless, great edge guarding tools, can survive even the most ballsy gimping attempts, decent keep away game, camping by the edge with the tree/bowling ball seems pretty effective. The bad: common approach options aren't good against him, hard to take the pressure off if he stays close to you, makes you paranoid to even attempt a grab.

-The good: the bike is pretty multifunctional in this matchup and can be used as a shield and an edgeguarding tool, can eat both forms of blade beam, good edgeguarding tools against him and not much to fear about going after Cloud offstage thanks to Wario's recovery options. The bad: Wario's lack of range hurts, Cloud can use the bike to extend the hitbox of Limit Break blade beam and finishing touch.

-The good: soccer ball blocks both forms of blade beam, out of shield ftilt feels like a consistently good punish against him, if he stalls to charge limit break you can heal yourself with deep breathing and sun salutation, can force him to approach, sun salutation works really well as an edgeguarding tool if he doesn't snap the ledge, good gimping and edge guard tools. The bad: hard to land against him, he has better range, jab combo sucks in this match up because it's really easy to punish if he doesn't get buried.

 

[TurboLink]

I'm still not seeing what everybody else sees in Corrin... Looks like another character built like Zelda and Palutena.

What do you mean?

 

[Radical Larry]

@Mewtwo - Chainz
I actually know my stuff from experience. I've played around against some rather decent to my-level Cloud players via online, FG and offline plays for the past weeks he has been out, and he's not bad, he's good, but he's not good against the characters I mentioned before. Falco and Link can dominate Cloud with superior frame data on many attacks (as well as far better recoveries), while Ganondorf has that extreme edge-guarding ability and power against Cloud. I know a lot about going against Cloud even with the amount of time he's been out because I test against him quite a lot with other characters and quite frequently no less.

 

[Rizen]

I don't see why it's too early to talk about Cloud. He's won tournaments, IIRC Nairo's dark pit beat Tweek's Cloud but as soon as he switched to ZSS Cloud started winning. That's a pretty good first impression that Cloud has good tools in the ZSS MU.

In my personal experience, Cloud whipped me the first few times I played vs him but once I learned blade beam goes really far and to respect Cloud's mobility I did much better. IMO as early impressions, nothing set in stone, Link is about even with Cloud, Link gimps, Cloud has better kill options and it's a weird zoning game where both characters want to get the opponent in their strong areas. G&W has a hell of a time vs Cloud, disadvantage for sure; that big sword and fast air speed are very hard to get in on even though BB can be bucketed. Ganon's at a disadvantage too since blade beam makes approaching a pain.
/early impressions, IMO.

(I can go into greater detail if anyone wants.)

 

[ARGHETH]

@Mewtwo - Chainz
I actually know my stuff from experience. I've played around against some rather decent to my-level Cloud players via online, FG and offline plays for the past weeks he has been out, and he's not bad, he's good, but he's not good against the characters I mentioned before. Falco and Link can dominate Cloud with superior frame data on many attacks (as well as far better recoveries), while Ganondorf has that extreme edge-guarding ability and power against Cloud. I know a lot about going against Cloud even with the amount of time he's been out because I test against him quite a lot with other characters and quite frequently no less.

Dude, if ZeRo doesn't get treated as fact around here, you don't get treated as fact.

 

[S_B]

I'm going to laugh myself to death if everyone is here going "OH NOES! BAYONETTA TOP TIER!!!!" and Corin turns out to be more overpowered than 5 Brawl MKs stapled together...

 

[Radical Larry]

Rizen But that's where Ganondorf's mobility comes to play. If you have a character like Ganondorf, it's easier to predict and perfect shield Blade Beams because Ganondorf is a slower character, so he'll stop much faster and be able to pull out that shield. I've perfected perfect shielding against many projectiles of opponents, starting with Mario's Fireballs, Luigi's Fireballs and even Link's Arrows and Samus's Charge Shot.

Blade Beam is NOTHING to a perfect shielding Ganondorf.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm still not seeing what everybody else sees in Corrin... Looks like another character built like Zelda and Palutena.

If we're being honest, I'm scared because he looks like he has mediocre mobility and frame data. I think he won't end up being very good. I'm hopeful because he looks fun and spacing oriented, and I want a main, so new stuff is always the most enticing.

That said, I don't see what you mean. Built like them as in tall and relatively light with largely bad normals and specials? Mediocre sword normals trump mediocre non sword normals for the most part. My fear is that his sword moves look like Marth's but worse.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think the title of 'absolute worst grab game in the game' would go to Jigglypuff. Cloud can at the very least keep them away so he can get more limit.

"One of, if not, the worst"

 

[Big O]

Huh, I thought DK didn't have an autocancel on fair.. just went to training to test this and I can't move until the animation is finished. When it is I don't have landinglag anymore, when it isn't I do have landinglag. So either the autocancel is super useless because the animation doesn't even take that long, or the FAF doesn't work. :/

Big O said his fair is still bugged, so there probably are some weird things with the move. Even the Melee framedata notes "Auto-cancel: Donkey Kong's Forward-Air is the only aerial in the game that cannot be auto-canceled.", though of course it probably doesn't matter that much in Melee because of L-cancelling.
Just looked at Big Os DK frame data and this is what he has: total frames of fair is 55, and the note "Never AC's/still bugged lol". And of course in Brawl it was like that too.

Kinda sad but ah well. His fair is pretty bad and DK wishes he had a good aerial that hits in front of him or any 'not with a lot of landinglag' landing option that isn't "do nothing", but it does have a bit of uses. I definietly like it more than Marios fair because it covers much more range (starting above + behind DKs head). It also did get faster than it was in Brawl (where it was the slowest aerial in the game iirc).
Melee: Fair ...25-29 / 59 (landinglag: 30 (Lcancel: 15), no autocancel)
->
Brawl: Fair ...25-29 / 59...(landinglag: 30 frames, no auto cancel. Spikes on frames 27-29)
->
Smash 4: Fair ...18-22 / 55 (landinglag: 29; Never AC's; Spikes on frames 21-22)

Basically, the AC flag was tied to a 55 frame synchronous timer in Brawl instead of an asynchronous timer. Only Ganon and DK were affected by this oversight and as a result had Fair's that could never AC. The windows for both ended up being so long the the animation for the move ends before the AC flag even triggers. The funny thing is that since the animation of the move ends you can end up landing normally anyway, but only after the actual animation of the move is done.

In Smash 4, a lot more characters were added and either intentionally or unintentionally, more characters happen to have AC windows that happen after IASA kicks in. These new moves (like most of Shulk's aerials) may also have AC windows that happen after IASA, but I never really looked at their code to see if it's due to the same oversight (synchronous instead of asynchronous) or intentionally put in there to behave like that (like not having instructions to reset the AC flag at all). In Ganon and DK's case, I assume it is due to an oversight rather than intentional because there is no reason for it to be programmed that way when the animations themselves don't last that long.

Another reason I see it as an actual bug/glitch/oversight is that if you buffer any aerial after these moves, you will always get landing lag for that move until that move's AC flag gets reset. Normally moves can AC before the hitbox is out and again sometime after the hitbox ends. However, buffering another aerial after moves like DK's Fair doesn't let you AC with the second aerial until after the hitbox ends (the second part of the AC window). So Full Hopped Fair's buffered into Nair will give landing lag, but Full Hop Dair's buffered into Nair won't, even though Fair ends closer to the ground.

Lol I hope my explanation didn't end up being too confusing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't see why it's too early to talk about Cloud. He's won tournaments, IIRC Nairo's dark pit beat Tweek's Cloud but as soon as he switched to ZSS Cloud started winning. That's a pretty good first impression that Cloud has good tools in the ZSS MU.

In my personal experience, Cloud whipped me the first few times I played vs him but once I learned blade beam goes really far and to respect Cloud's mobility I did much better. IMO as early impressions, nothing set in stone, Link is about even with Cloud, Link gimps, Cloud has better kill options and it's a weird zoning game where both characters want to get the opponent in their strong areas. G&W has a hell of a time vs Cloud, disadvantage for sure; that big sword and fast air speed are very hard to get in on even though BB can be bucketed. Ganon's at a disadvantage too since blade beam makes approaching a pain.
/early impressions, IMO.

(I can go into greater detail if anyone wants.)

Just.... go back a number of pages, we've already had this discussion in detail.

tl;dr: you're falling the the "Trela Mewtwo" situation. Don't do that. Needs a month minimum, everything until that point is irrelevant-but-interesting. With Christmas happening I think 6 weeks might be more realistic.

 

[LancerStaff]

How so?

What do you mean?

Dragon's Breath, Dragon Thrust (IIRC) and Fsmash are all very powerful and long ranged but slow. Dragon's Breath is your typical "stand around and charge up something stupidly powerful but even more stupidly telegraphed" move. Might be good for edgeguarding, but so is Din's Failure. Fsmash is very much the same but it's strictly a melee attack. Dragon Thrust is essentially a tether grab, and will either be hilariously laggy like every other tether and/or won't do jack to shields. Also note the rather large blind spot...

The only other notable features Sakurai pointed out was that his Bair pushes him forward (secretly a way to let him move faster when recovering and not when approaching rather then a straight bonus) and that his Uspecial is okay. Unless you really think the short ranged rapid jab from the chainsaw sword will actually be useful...

The type of character they're making him out to be has been bad in 1v1s every single time. Namely because they're specifically designed to not be able to defend themselves and rely on moves that flat-out don't work in 1v1s.

If we're being honest, I'm scared because he looks like he has mediocre mobility and frame data. I think he won't end up being very good. I'm hopeful because he looks fun and spacing oriented, and I want a main, so new stuff is always the most enticing.

That said, I don't see what you mean. Built like them as in tall and relatively light with largely bad normals and specials? Mediocre sword normals trump mediocre non sword normals for the most part. My fear is that his sword moves look like Marth's but worse.

IIRC, Zelda's Ftilt is pretty disjointed but still terrible, and Fsmash is decent but it's still an Fsmash... Most everything of Palutena's on the ground is significantly disjointed but pretty terrible outside of Jab 1, Dtilt and Usmash but that's one of those weird utility moves and not a typical Usmash.

I have very, very low expectations for this character. Wouldn't surprise me if he's bottom five to be honest...

 

[FallofBrawl]

Dragon's Breath, Dragon Thrust (IIRC) and Fsmash are all very powerful and long ranged but slow. Dragon's Breath is your typical "stand around and charge up something stupidly powerful but even more stupidly telegraphed" move. Might be good for edgeguarding, but so is Din's Failure. Fsmash is very much the same but it's strictly a melee attack. Dragon Thrust is essentially a tether grab, and will either be hilariously laggy like every other tether and/or won't do jack to shields. Also note the rather large blind spot...

The only other notable features Sakurai pointed out was that his Bair pushes him forward (secretly a way to let him move faster when recovering and not when approaching rather then a straight bonus) and that his Uspecial is okay. Unless you really think the short ranged rapid jab from the chainsaw sword will actually be useful...

The type of character they're making him out to be has been bad in 1v1s every single time. Namely because they're specifically designed to not be able to defend themselves and rely on moves that flat-out don't work in 1v1s.



IIRC, Zelda's Ftilt is pretty disjointed but still terrible, and Fsmash is decent but it's still an Fsmash... Most everything of Palutena's on the ground is significantly disjointed but pretty terrible outside of Jab 1, Dtilt and Usmash but that's one of those weird utility moves and not a typical Usmash.

I have very, very low expectations for this character. Wouldn't surprise me if he's bottom five to be honest...

Where are you even getting this info from? Did you even watch how the character worked? They purposely held down b for the standard to get the shot and the bite, you don't have to wait for the bite to attack out of the paralyzer you know?

You can act out of dragon thrust regardless of hitting your opponent or not. You can still get a jump, kick, or cancel out of it, even if it misses the opponent lol. The so called "blind-spot" is unavoidable for human lengthed characters (like 80% of the cast), I can see shorter character getting under though.

His rapid jab is the dragon bites, the chainsaw sword thing is a hitbox that comes out when he's charging f-smash. Please do some research before making posts like this.

 

[Vyrnx]

Let's just wait for Bayonetta and Corrin to come out before talking about viability or tier placements. Not saying this to be rude, I just think it's a bad direction for discussion.

 

[Pazzo.]

On Corrin: A clever player upon conditioning his/her opponent not to jump from the ledge may be able to cover 4 of the 5 options on the ledge with F-Smash and proper spacing.

Yato hitbox: Rolling.

Dragon Fang: Everything else.

Of course, this depends on Corrin's frame data, which we know nothing about.

 

[LancerStaff]

Where are you even getting this info from? Did you even watch how the character worked? They purposely held down b for the standard to get the shot and the bite, you don't have to wait for the bite to attack out of the paralyzer you know?

You can act out of dragon thrust regardless of hitting your opponent or not. You can still get a jump, kick, or cancel out of it, even if it misses the opponent lol. The so called "blind-spot" is unavoidable for human lengthed characters (like 80% of the cast), I can see shorter character getting under though.

His rapid jab is the dragon bites, the chainsaw sword thing is a hitbox that comes out when he's charging f-smash. Please do some research before making posts like this.

That still doesn't stop his main moves from being cut from the same cloth as Zelda's.

I doubt the stunning part of Dragon's Breath will be very useful because otherwise you could essentially get the move off for free in a FFA. The charging hitbox on Fsmash, which I don't think that's what it is, looks useless in any situation or as any move. Even the neutral drop from Dragon Thrust looks incredibly slow because he's in this "took an arrow to the knee" pose everybody makes when they land with something laggy. Jumping out of it may be fast, but then again is there really any character you want to be above? The blindspot is a much bigger deal when you realize that most characters lean forwards a ways when dashing and dash attacking.

 

[Jehtt]

I doubt the stunning part of Dragon's Breath will be very useful because otherwise you could essentially get the move off for free in a FFA.

First we talk about Cloud (who is 2 weeks old) nerfs. Next we talk about Cloud (who again, is two weeks old) matchups.Then we talk about how good characters who aren't even out yet are. Now we're back to FFA discussion.
I don't know why I keep reading this thread.

If we really have to talk about Cloud's Matchups, we ought to theorize about characters who are relevant threats. I think it would be much more insightful to analyze his MU vs Sheik or ZSS than Falco or Link or other mid-tier.
On that note, I suppose I'll ask this: why do people believe that Cloud beats ZSS? I know there was that set with Nairo but I mean more theoretical reasons. What tools does Cloud have that function well against ZSS's kit?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Whatever lol

Back on topic, what do you guys think what holds for Ness and his competitive future? Started out as a force to be reckon with but now he kinda slowly shifted away from relevancy. Do you guys think the Rosa MU hinders him hard? (I personally don't). Is it due to because stronger Ness mains like FOW, Shaky, and NAKAT havent been able to enter every major?

 

[Ffamran]

So... how about a different topic? Cloud and Sheik. Nooo, I am not introducing a ship that probably exist nor am I trying to turn this into the "Character Shipping Discussion". In this case, Trela's Cloud and Karna's Sheik; Trela's Cloud vs. Karna's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLqhbweBPMY.

Trela's Cloud vs. Karna's Sheik (Grand Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjIQOSKnPgc.

Also, Trela's Cloud vs. Deluxemenu's Bowser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huCoeHuBqog, if anyone's interested in theorizing how Cloud interacts with Bowser.

That still doesn't stop his main moves from being cut from the same cloth as Zelda's.

I doubt the stunning part of Dragon's Breath will be very useful because otherwise you could essentially get the move off for free in a FFA. The charging hitbox on Fsmash, which I don't think that's what it is, looks useless in any situation or as any move. Even the neutral drop from Dragon Thrust looks incredibly slow because he's in this "took an arrow to the knee" pose everybody makes when they land with something laggy. Jumping out of it may be fast, but then again is there really any character you want to be above? The blindspot is a much bigger deal when you realize that most characters lean forwards a ways when dashing and dash attacking.

Stop. I don't know why there was a discussion on a character not even released and without any estimated frame data as far as I'm aware unlike Cloud and even then, nobody, NOBODY has hands-on experience playing as Corrin (or Bayonetta). You can play Bayonetta or Street Fighter as much as you want and even then, before they were/are released, you cannot say a thing about Bayonetta and Ryu in Smash. Remember Palutena? Remember Mewtwo? Granted, Mewtwo's recent changes are amazing for him. Hell, remember Roy who's still being overrated? Even Bowser who people had some hands-on experience considered him top tier. Look where he went and where he's now. He's not even close to high tier.

Any further discussion of Corrin (and Bayonetta) ends here.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Of course, this depends on Corrin's frame data, which we know nothing about.

Actually @PommePatate managed to create a frame data sheet based on what he saw in the analysis trailer.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13yLMpvV58FOcJta6wDTlhPEGh0DVh2r5Ms9Y5TfaUP8/edit?usp=sharing

 

[wedl!!]

Ness' main draw and flaw is his extreme simplicity. Unlike, say, Zero Suit, Ness isn't a character that punishes the player for messing up but he also doesn't allow for a lot of creativity. His meta is essentially the same it's always been; fish for grabs, uairs, and fairs, hope you get a bthrow at 90% and don't get knocked offstage. While it's definitely strong (being simple =/= bad), it sometimes feels lacking. With that damage output and that silly a grab alongside his relatively great matchup spread, I don't think that Ness will ever drop below top 15.

Most of his disappearance can generally be attested to this one-dimensional style (people are always going to get better at adapting), and partially the roadblocking devil known as Tall, Blond, and Pretty, the Matter Cyclone and Luma.

 

[Pazzo.]

Ness' main draw and flaw is his extreme simplicity. Unlike, say, Zero Suit, Ness isn't a character that punishes the player for messing up but he also doesn't allow for a lot of creativity. His meta is essentially the same it's always been; fish for grabs, uairs, and fairs, hope you get a bthrow at 90% and don't get knocked offstage. While it's definitely strong (being simple =/= bad), it sometimes feels lacking. With that damage output and that silly a grab alongside his relatively great matchup spread, I don't think that Ness will ever drop below top 15.

Most of his disappearance can generally be attested to this one-dimensional style (people are always going to get better at adapting), and partially the roadblocking devil known as Tall, Blond, and Pretty, the Matter Cyclone and Luma.

As a Ness main, pretty much this.

I will note that because he's simple, a lot more cognitive function can be spent in other areas. For me, not having long frame perfect strings helps me analyze the opponet.

 

[L9999]

Whatever lol

Back on topic, what do you guys think what holds for Ness and his competitive future? Started out as a force to be reckon with but now he kinda slowly shifted away from relevancy. Do you guys think the Rosa MU hinders him hard? (I personally don't). Is it due to because stronger Ness mains like FOW, Shaky, and NAKAT havent been able to enter every major?

Personally I thought they stopped playing until I looked them up on Youtube. But it is certainly a coincidence that the 3 main Ness players vanished for some reason.

 

[LancerStaff]

First we talk about Cloud (who is 2 weeks old) nerfs. Next we talk about Cloud (who again, is two weeks old) matchups.Then we talk about how good characters who aren't even out yet are. Now we're back to FFA discussion.
I don't know why I keep reading this thread.

Thing is that if people didn't want to talk about this stuff, we wouldn't be talking about it. I mean, really, everybody wants to talk about the new characters no matter how "too soon" it is.

If you're not fond of the Cloud discussion, you might as well vamoose until like April, because at this rate we're going to be talking about Cloud until Bayo and Corrin land and then the cycle's going to repeat itself.

Stop. I don't know why there was a discussion on a character not even released and without any estimated frame data as far as I'm aware unlike Cloud and even then, nobody, NOBODY has hands-on experience playing as Corrin (or Bayonetta). You can play Bayonetta or Street Fighter as much as you want and even then, before they were/are released, you cannot say a thing about Bayonetta and Ryu in Smash. Remember Palutena? Remember Mewtwo? Granted, Mewtwo's recent changes are amazing for him. Hell, remember Roy who's still being overrated? Even Bowser who people had some hands-on experience considered him top tier. Look where he went and where he's now. He's not even close to high tier.

Any further discussion of Corrin (and Bayonetta) ends here.

And why is this harmful or bad discussion? I don't see anybody calling out anybody else saying Corrin and Bayo look bonkers without any thought behind it besides trailer hype... I mean, looking a lot closer at the previous trailers and prerelease stuff it's not hard to see that people let the hype get to them horribly.

Actually @PommePatate managed to create a frame data sheet based on what he saw in the analysis trailer.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13yLMpvV58FOcJta6wDTlhPEGh0DVh2r5Ms9Y5TfaUP8/edit?usp=sharing

Yeah... People have tried this in the past. Never turned out remotely right. Heck, wouldn't be surprised if there were some big discrepancies between Roy and Ryu's stuff in their trailer and what they were on release.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

On that note, I suppose I'll ask this: why do people believe that Cloud beats ZSS? I know there was that set with Nairo but I mean more theoretical reasons. What tools does Cloud have that function well against ZSS's kit?

Same reason why Olimar was a "Diddy counter" back in the hoo hah days. People like to extrapolate.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Most of his disappearance can generally be attested to this one-dimensional style (people are always going to get better at adapting), and partially the roadblocking devil known as Tall, Blond, and Pretty, the Matter Cyclone and Luma.

This is why I think if Cloud, Corrin, or Bayonetta turn out to have strong matchups up against Cosmic Paula Deen and her Butter Star, I could see Ness players picking them up as secondaries. I think this is a big thing that hurts Ness players is that Rosalina doesn't really have any decent counters and you just have to choose someone who breaks even or sucks less against her.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ness' main draw and flaw is his extreme simplicity. Unlike, say, Zero Suit, Ness isn't a character that punishes the player for messing up but he also doesn't allow for a lot of creativity. His meta is essentially the same it's always been; fish for grabs, uairs, and fairs, hope you get a bthrow at 90% and don't get knocked offstage. While it's definitely strong (being simple =/= bad), it sometimes feels lacking. With that damage output and that silly a grab alongside his relatively great matchup spread, I don't think that Ness will ever drop below top 15.

Most of his disappearance can generally be attested to this one-dimensional style (people are always going to get better at adapting), and partially the roadblocking devil known as Tall, Blond, and Pretty, the Matter Cyclone and Luma.

His simiplicity, like Luigi and others, doesn't lend itself to one-dimensional play. Of course he's going to do his BnBs and such, but after that he has to start playing footsies with his opponent utilizing his numerous pokes to push forward and control the stage. And creativity plays a part in his post BnB combo % and various methods in staying safe and dealing damage at the same time (because you do have to mix up your attack patterns). Not to mention the niche ways players utilize his PK thunder and fire moves.

 

[Jamurai]

Where is the threshold when we can talk about Cloud's viability and matchups? A month? Two months? A year? There's nothing wrong with discussion on these topics right now, people are getting a good feel for how he plays so theorising how matchups go isn't totally ridiculous like some make it out to be.

Going back a bit, Cloud isn't broken, just sort of flawed in design. Pre-patch Luigi wasn't a top tier character but he still wrecked low- and mid-level tournaments. I think Cloud is in the same kind of situation: easy to play and abuse but players will be able to take advantage of his weaknesses consistently enough for him to not be a threat at top level. He may not be quite as unhealthy as Luigi was for the mid-level playerbase but may be nerfed as a result of this, I wouldn't be surprised but I'm not sure it will happen either.

 

[Halifax?]

This reminds me of the DLC discussion thread leading up to the final presentation when we were all just yelling and beating the **** out of each other. Genesis 3 can't come fast enough.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

let's just take a deep breath and analyze what it takes for a character to be a threat in the current meta.