Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[ShadowKing]

Late Dair is Cloud's best combo starter, just good luck getting it on someone who doesn't randomly drop shield against it.

Late Dair -> Footstool -> D-Air (Spike) -> Landing U-Air -> FT? Ez

37 damage, FT with no rage will kill people off a U-Air at like ~45. You could legitimately carry someone from 0 to death just off a late Dair if you get a DI read.

Limit D-Air is auto cancelled if you FH too, so there's nothing special either. If Cloud had a throw that led into a footstool the character would be legit busted.

You'd get grabbed at 0 and your stock lost like it's ZSS, but without you being able to DI it.

Cloud with a real throw game + auto snap up-b is 100 percent top tier, thank god that doesn't exist.

Would late dair be predicted or countered because its very similar to links?

 

[Mario766]

To auto cancel D-Air the way you want, you have to legit

Full Hop

D-Air at apex.

Don't fast fall.

Ryuga used it heavily at a MI local, and 9/10 times every hit was them shielding it, dropping shield, and getting hit by the lingering hit.

*This is only if you actually hit them/hit their shield. The move auto cancels 10 frames before his FH ends, but hitting the shield would cause more hitlag so hitting things might cause the move to stay out too long.*

 

[DanGR]

Another option for landing after its FAF is full hopping dair while rising (input as you jump), then fast fall when you see the sword glow. That way you have the hitbox out the whole time, the whole movement is quicker overall, and it's still safe on block.

 

[Browny]

consistent Throw combos that can sometimes (not once-in-a-blue-moon sometimes) lead to death is the leading cause of being a threat in the current meta

disagree

 

[Mario766]

It's a big part of some characters, but not a leading factor.

Some characters get redeemed by throw combos, but they don't fix the problems

ala

Bowser
DK

 

[KuroganeHammer]

we don't want the problem fixed, all characters are meant to have weaknesses, idk if giving bowser 30%+ followups from a grab was the right idea but hey I am not complaining LOL

playing wifi this week I've KO'd numerous people at 75% off a grab, and its ****ing glorious

 

[bc1910]

consistent Throw combos that can sometimes (not once-in-a-blue-moon sometimes) lead to death is the leading cause of being a threat in the current meta

I used to think this but it's funny, looking at the upper portion of the cast, how things have changed. This was definitely true during the days of Sheik/Diddy/Luigi dominance but now, not so much.

have pretty consistent throw combos and kill confirms/setups from throw, in order from most to least devastating. The percent windows for DK and Ike's true 50/50 kill confirms are small.

has low percent throw combos and sets up her Uair airdodge traps with Uthrow. She has nothing guaranteed by way of killing, though.

is in a weird spot since there are some sweetspot percent ranges that he can kill with Dthrow to roof combo, but I wouldn't call them consistent. His Dthrow is very DI-able but Fthrow is hard to react to and sets up Shuttle Loop.

have plenty of throw combos but would fall into that killing-once-in-a-blue-moon camp as none of them have consistent kill setups from a throw. Pika's Thunder setups are probably the most dangerous but you can live quite long with good DI, and DI can stop them from working anyway.

have throw combos and decent kill throws, but nothing ridiculous.

have very limited throw combos at low percents and none of them kill with throws.

don't combo or kill with their throws.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's a big part of some characters, but not a leading factor.

Some characters get redeemed by throw combos, but they don't fix the problems

ala

Bowser
DK

Why fix the problem of a character that's meant to be that way? Oh sorry we can't have every character be like Sheik. Oh sorry we have a character that acts like Zangief. Oh sorry we can't have characters who are "supposed" to be broken.

Let me tell you something, DK is already as good as he is. He has good mobility, he has 4 spikes, he has incredible power, but you know what compensates for that power and all of his capabilities? His bulky body, his heavy weight, the lack of a projectile and punishable attacks. Bowser too, is now decent. He had a problem fixed actually and that was needing a combo throw. He doesn't need any other change or else it wouldn't fit his character archtype at all. Characters like Bowser, Dedede and Ganondorf NEED these problems for them, or else they would be incredibly and utterly broken.

Ganondorf, for another example, does NOT need his mobility fixed. He has incredible power, some of his attacks are actually fast, he has many kill moves and he has some powerful throws and a decent throw combo game. If you want to fix his recovery, just put in Wizard's Dropkick, it's as easy as that. He's not meant to have stellar mobility, he's meant to be a very heavy hitter with slow mobility.

These talks about "fixing" problems on characters is foolish actually, especially on heavies that are meant to have these problems in the first place. There's a name for this, you know...

Balance.

Not every damn character is going to be like Sheik or ZSS, and saying that the characters "need their problems fixed" shows that people need to just shut up, play the game and be happy with what they got. It happens every damn update and it's really just tiring to me that people keep saying this.

Whenever a character gets a buff, there's going to be that ONE person who says that the character still needs to be "fixed" when the character's already balanced enough. Is it not easy to grasp?

I used to think this but it's funny, looking at the upper portion of the cast, how things have changed. This was definitely true during the days of Sheik/Diddy/Luigi dominance but now, not so much.

have pretty consistent throw combos and kill confirms/setups from throw, in order from most to least devastating. The percent windows for DK and Ike's true 50/50 kill confirms are small.

has low percent throw combos and sets up her Uair airdodge traps with Uthrow. She has nothing guaranteed by way of killing, though.

is in a weird spot since there are some sweetspot percent ranges that he can kill with Dthrow to roof combo, but I wouldn't call them consistent. His Dthrow is very DI-able but Fthrow is hard to react to and sets up Shuttle Loop.

have plenty of throw combos but would fall into that killing-once-in-a-blue-moon camp as none of them have consistent kill setups from a throw. Pika's Thunder setups are probably the most dangerous but you can live quite long with good DI, and DI can stop them from working anyway.

have throw combos and decent kill throws, but nothing ridiculous.

have decent throw combos, nothing really ridiculous, and the combo is based on rage, weight of opponent and falling speed of opponent.

have very limited throw combos at low percents and none of them kill with throws.

don't combo or kill with their throws.

 

[bc1910]

Bowser's throw combos are actually pretty ridiculous.

Neither Bowser nor Link are in the upper portion of the cast though.

Well, Bowser could be, but it's too early to tell.

 

[Radical Larry]

Bowser's throw combos are actually pretty ridiculous.

Neither Bowser nor Link are in the upper portion of the cast though.

Well, Bowser could be, but it's too early to tell.

Link's D-Throw > U-Tilt/U-Smash combos and some possible 50/50 combo throw into U-Air? And let's not forget Link can do D-Throw > U-Smash > F-Air on opponents at lower damages. Link has a lot of quips with him, and he has a decent combo throw that can lead into potential strings up to 60%+ damage. The chances increase if the opponent gets caught by Link's U-Tilt and accidentally jumps, only to get hit by another one and get caught in it.

Link has a decent kill throw on stages like Duck Hunt and Battlefield, with U-Throw killing earlier than on stages like Final Destination. U-Throw is often a late kill, but if you risk it all and try doing U-Throw on the peaks of these stages, you could potentially KO earlier.

Now I'm wondering what would happen should Link risk going on the very top of Duck Hunt, bait his opponent out and do his D-Throw combos. There is a potential for Link to have a Zero-To-Death there. That is going to actually be tested, because this could be something beneficial to Link.

 

[Routa]

don't combo or kill with their throws.

Well his F-throw and B-throw aren't that bad at killing. Also when customs are allowed he is able to follow up D-throw with Speedy Bike.

Also Mii Gunner is the most cancerous character to fight against. It is like Villager with AD/HD.

 

[bc1910]

You're right, I forgot about Wario's Fthrow. That's a pretty good kill throw. Bthrow is kinda weak though.

Luigi player I don't find myself dying to Villager's Bthrow. You can DI to survive until pretty high percents. I can't remember the last time I saw Ranai get a kill with it (to be fair, it doesn't help that Villager's grab is awful). I dunno, it's just not as scary as say, Toon Link's. I suppose it should be considered under kill throws for completion's sake.

Bthrows in general are fairly poor kill throws, they usually require you to be very close to the ledge and you can see them coming a mile off. Like, Mario's Bthrow is technically his kill throw, but I omitted Mario from the first group because of the issues Bthrows have in general. Besides Ness', I'm impressed by very few, if any, killing Bthrows.

Peach's Bthrow is not a kill throw at reasonable percents.

As for Link, I do think his throw game is solid. I'm talking about characters in the upper half of the cast though, since the original post was regarding the need for consistent throw combos to be a successful character. Link's throw game is good but he has other issues which prevent him from being that successful.

 

[Luigi player]

and none of them kill with throws.

Villagers bthrow is one of the strongest in the game at KOing. He definitely kills with it.

don't combo or kill with their throws.

Like someone already said, Warios fthrow (bthrow not too much) is pretty decent at KOing.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Um villager has one of the strongest Bthrow though? Peach's Bthrow is a kill(albeit not great) throw.

 

[Luigi player]

Luigi player I don't find myself dying to Villager's Bthrow. You can DI to survive until pretty high percents. I can't remember the last time I saw Ranai get a kill with it (to be fair, it doesn't help that Villager's grab is awful). I dunno, it's just not as scary as say, Toon Link's. I suppose it should be considered under kill throws for completion's sake.

Depending on %, Villagers bthrow is realistically speaking the 2nd strongest one in the game (after Ness). At lower %, if you don't DI / vector correctly some others are still stronger, but Villagers seems to have a much higher knockback growth, which makes it the 2nd strongest at %s above ~125 or something (Shulk smash-monadu being the contestant here, which will periodically get much weaker the higher the % gets because of Villagers great KBG).

Here are some of my (pretty old) testings to find out the strongest bthrows:

(KO-% on omega at edge, on mario, no rage)
no vectoring:

Ness: 80 %
Shulk (Smash): 90 %
Luigi: 98 %
Toon Link: 98 %
Sonic: 99 % (prepatch) -> patch 117 %
Villager: 104 %

with vectoring (horizontal):

Ness: 94 %
Shulk (Smash): 120 %
Villager: 121 %
Sonic: 123 % (prepatch) -> patch 148 %
Toon Link: 127 %
DK: 130 %

As you can see, Villager moves up super quickly.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

What about Strong Uthrow? Kirby,Lucas,Rob,Char,Mewtwo are like the top contenders right?
Uthrow don't really require positioning near the edge to kill earlier, but on platforms(especially suplexs like Kirby,Rob n Char) its much easier
I think having Uthrow kills may be the best.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Meta Knight.

To be honest, I've never seen the Metaknight/Rosa matchup in play so I wouldn't know. I've heard people talk about it but I haven't seen it myself yet. Know of any notable matches from the past I could watch?

disagree

- forward and down throw are good for positioning and Fox is fast enough to get decent follow ups out of them.
- back throw is a semi reliable kill throw and f/u/dthrow are good for positioning and is fast enough to get decent follow ups out of them.
- forward and down throw are good for positioning and Falcon is fast enough to get decent follow ups out of them. Fthrow can reasonably kill at the edge too.
-down throw gets nice follow ups until the 50-60's for most characters, fthrow is good for resetting projectile pressure, and bthrow is one of the strongest kill throws in the game.

I don't play as them but also seem to have throws that are good for positioning too. Yes, I believe throw set ups.kill throws are good but I feel like there's more to that when it comes to determining if a character has a good grab game or not. For example, I'd argue have bad throw games because not only do they not have reliable follow ups but the positioning of most of their throws doesn't really help them either because the characters are too slow or don't have good tools to take advantage of it.

Add in: I noticed someone mentioned . Dthrow is good for positioning and fthrow is a fairly reasonable kill throw.

 

[L9999]

Meta Knight.

Maybe, but MK can't be learned in 5 minutes just to beat Rosalina.

Also Mii Gunner is the most cancerous character to fight against. It is like Villager with AD/HD.

All they do is Fair, Bomb Drop, Grenade Launch, and Missiles. But at least their recovery is bad and their jumps are awful, of course if we are talking of default size.

 

[Mili]

To be honest, I've never seen the Metaknight/Rosa matchup in play so I wouldn't know. I've heard people talk about it but I haven't seen it myself yet. Know of any notable matches from the past I could watch?




- forward and down throw are good for positioning and Fox is fast enough to get decent follow ups out of them.
- back throw is a semi reliable kill throw and f/u/dthrow are good for positioning and is fast enough to get decent follow ups out of them.
- forward and down throw are good for positioning and Falcon is fast enough to get decent follow ups out of them. Fthrow can reasonably kill at the edge too.
-down throw gets nice follow ups until the 50-60's for most characters, fthrow is good for resetting projectile pressure, and bthrow is one of the strongest kill throws in the game.

I don't play as them but also seem to have throws that are good for positioning too. Yes, I believe throw set ups.kill throws are good but I feel like there's more to that when it comes to determining if a character has a good grab game or not. For example, I'd argue have bad throw games because not only do they not have reliable follow ups but the positioning of most of their throws doesn't really help them either because the characters are too slow or don't have good tools to take advantage of it.

Add in: I noticed someone mentioned . Dthrow is good for positioning and fthrow is a fairly reasonable kill throw.

I feel like defining how good a grab game with each character requires several different factors. For example, if a character had no combo potential of any of their grabs, yet each throw did something ridiculous like 20% and killed early-ish, would they have a good grab game? I would say their grab game is just as good as any other's because although it doesn't have the same use as a combo grab, it still does a lot for the character.

In the example of , his grab game really isn't that bad like people think it is. Now, I'm not going to argue that his grab game is anywhere near good because, although I do have main bias, I'm not an idiot. His grabs still have really strong use in their damage percentages. B-Throw does 12% and is great for position, Down-Throw does 9% and is ok at getting super early percent combos with F-Air and F-Smash depending on reads but isn't that great outside of that. F-Throw does a base damage of 9% and is also good for position, same as B-Throw. U-Throw's usage only really comes out in teams because it positions your opponent above you where your teammate can combo and puts a hitbox in front, which is nice.

Like I said previously, Ryu's grab game is definitely not stellar but I would argue that it is good because of the multi-use and very solid damage output. All data was taken from http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu, KuroganeHammer shoutout #AustraliaBoiz

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Ryu's grab game is good (not really top tier grab game though, or even high tier.) SOLELY for its damage output. They don't kill but putting on damage with Ryu is so important because of TSRK that I can't stress it enough. Some of his throws do enough to merit not having followups as they have the damage to compensate for it.

His Throws also get exponentially better in Doubles, like his U-Throw for instance.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo has the strongest Uthrow, but his Bthrow apparently kills 34% later.

 

[Mili]

I think Ryu's grab game is good (not really top tier grab game though, or even high tier.) SOLELY for its damage output. They don't kill but putting on damage with Ryu is so important because of TSRK that I can't stress it enough. Some of his throws do enough to merit not having followups as they have the damage to compensate for it.

His Throws also get exponentially better in Doubles, like his U-Throw for instance.

Pretty much agree, like I said in my post

High damage output is pretty underrated in the metagame, I think. Everyone wants them -level grab games. Another point that I don't think was mentioned is that everyone judges every single character's grab game when a specific character really isn't centered around grabs anyway. Like, why would you even talk about 's grab game? It has follow-ups in super specific situations (mostly jab-locks on Battlefield) but other that that there's no point discussing. To a certain point, I feel like is the same.

 

[Ulevo]

To be honest, I've never seen the Metaknight/Rosa matchup in play so I wouldn't know. I've heard people talk about it but I haven't seen it myself yet. Know of any notable matches from the past I could watch?

Ito and Falln have quite a few sets up on Youtube. There is a lot of technology Ito does not utilize in the match up and it could be a lot cleaner, but it will give you the general gist.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think Ryu's grab game is good (not really top tier grab game though, or even high tier.) SOLELY for its damage output.

I'd make the same argument for Wario too. 12% for forward throw, 11% for up throw.

 

[Luigi player]

What about Strong Uthrow? Kirby,Lucas,Rob,Char,Mewtwo are like the top contenders right?
Uthrow don't really require positioning near the edge to kill earlier, but on platforms(especially suplexs like Kirby,Rob n Char) its much easier
I think having Uthrow kills may be the best.

Yeah since uthrow doesn't require the positioning it's really nice to have a strong one. Although Ness' bthrow could still be argued to be about the same. Here's a post of mine from when I tried to tell people how to DI Charizards uthrow and that it was a bit overrated...:

Strongest killthrows: KO % on Mario in training mode from the middle of Omega BF, with DI

Mewtwo [Uthrow] 135 (DI left or right)
Ness [Bthrow] 136 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)
Lucas [Uthrow] 147 (DI left or right)
Olimar[Uthrow, blue] 152 (DI away and a little bit down)
Charizard [Uthrow] 159 (DI down and away)
ROB [Uthrow] 162 (DI away and a little bit down)
Link [Uthrow] 166 (DI left or right)
Greninja [Uthrow] 168 (DI behind Greninja)
Villager [Bthrow] 169 (DI left/right against the throw + a little bit down and doublejump)
Toon Link [Bthrow] 183 (DI left/right against the throw + a bit down and doublejump)

Now if you want to compare Charizards uthrow to a stage with platforms... (let's take Dreamland 64)

Mewtwo (on the ground/main platform): 135
Charizard (goes up to the top platform with his uthrow): 124 (without DI: 95)

So yeah, Charizard with a high up top platform (BF/Miiverse, DL64, some transformations on Delfino, ...) is a bit stronger than Mewtwos.


(don't forget rage in all of this, and if the move is still fresh it could KO even earlier)

Charizard can also live longer than Mewtwo because of his weight. So he can build up more rage and have a longer time with it to try to get the throw.

These are the advantages for Charizard, but people make it seem like much bigger of a deal than it actually is... just remember that you can DI it to shut it down big time. It's still a crazy kill option with high up platforms though (and even without it's a strong killthrow of course).

Just tested Kirbys uthrow too for comparison. It KOs at 159 % (DI away and a little bit down at the start, then hold straight down to vector against it). I'm actually surprised it is that strong, didn't look like that from what I've seen (postpatch), but I guess it has a better angle than Charizard's so DI isn't helping as much.
To see how much it helps against Charizard: without DI / vectoring Kirby KOs at 147 and Charizard at 126. Both KO at 159 % if DI'd correctly.

 

[Mili]

I'd make the same argument for Wario too. 12% for forward throw, 11% for up throw.

You don't want to stale F-Throw that much, though. If you can't close out a stock, you really need something to rely on. U-Throw is pretty good I will admit.

Who are some of the characters that have an underrated grab game? has been established but I think is super underrated because you would assume he gets literally nothing out of them but they can be. 's grab game is actually pretty strong and I'm not sure what the general consensus on / but I've heard people think it's bad because the range is mediocre at best.

 

[Blobface]

For example, I'd argue have bad throw games because not only do they not have reliable follow ups but the positioning of most of their throws doesn't really help them either because the characters are too slow or don't have good tools to take advantage of it.

Ganon's D-throw gets combos on middle-to-lightweight characters up to about 40-60% depending on fall speed, and his F and B throws, despite not killing very early are actually among the stronger throws in the game (IIRC I saw a chart on this somewhere), making them great for putting people offstage. Even U-throw has some niche uses with positioning. Bowser Jr might very well have the worst throws though.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yeah since uthrow doesn't require the positioning it's really nice to have a strong one.

I know and think about this for Uthrow.

Most top tier/high tiered characters are generally mid or lighter weight.(Mario,ZSS,Shiek,Pika,MK,Peach,Luigi etc.)
and someone like Kirby's Uthrow kills midweight Mario at 150ish mostly, so since several of the most used characters are light, that makes it kill slightly already.

Now factor in how against some(or most) of these characters, they generally won't be killing the earliest all the time without a hard read(Mario,(sometimes)ZSS,Shiek,Pika etc.) So most of the time even light little Kirby can take some advantage of rage, so he at least would live in the 100s range, which is a decent amount of rage, that means extra knockback.

Now, if its a suplex like Kirby's or Zards, that makes it able to land on platforms(especially Kirby's) so that adds in more % too.

Now lastly, some stages(I believe SV) have smaller blastzones at the top I think, so that makes it kill even earlier.

With all these things combined, some Uthrow can be among the strongest throws in the entire game, so I hope my theory proves right or useful ^_^

 

[Wintropy]

is super underrated because you would assume he gets literally nothing out of them but they can be.

This is exactly how I mix things up as Mac. It's not a great option, but if the opponent shields on instinct, grab is a good punish, pummel's pretty fast and you can get decent positioning with it. Not very good, but definitely underrated.

/ but I've heard people think it's bad because the range is mediocre at best.

Range is mediocre and the grab itself is slow, but it's got great followups. D-throw -> wind jab at low percents or u-air / f-air at higher percents (good kill confirm), b-throw is a decent kill throw. Grab is terrible, throws and followups are excellent. Definitely worth it if you can connect it.

Obligatory comment. Every throw is useful in some way: d-throw has a plethora of followups (u-smash at low percents, d-air at mid-high percents, all of his airs can be used at certain percents to read DI), f-throw kills at the edge, b-throw is good for positioning, u-throw has frame trap potential (u-throw -> fire arrow upwards -> bait airdodge -> u-air / u-smash. Earth's bread-and-butter move).

has a solid grab game too. It's honestly one of the only things she has going for her.

EDIT: Word.

 

[Mili]

This is exactly how I mix things up as Mac. It's not a great option, but if the opponent shields on instinct, grab is a good punish, pummel's pretty fast and you can get decent positioning with it. Not very good, but definitely underrated.



Range is mediocre and the grab itself is slow, but it's got great followups. D-throw -> wind jab at low percents or u-air / f-air at higher percents (good kill confirm), b-throw is a decent kill throw. Grab is terrible, throws and followups are excellent. Definitely worth it if you can connect it.

Obligatory comment. Every throw is useful in some way: d-throw has a plethora of followups (u-smash at low percents, d-air at mid-high percents, all of his airs can be used at certain percents to read DI), f-throw kills at the edge, b-throw is good for positioning, u-throw has frame trap potential (u-throw -> fire arrow upwards -> bait airdodge -> u-air / u-smash. Earth's bread-and-butter move).

has a solid grab game too. It's honestly one of the only things she has going for.

I was going to mention / but I simply assumed people KNEW their grab game was good. 's grab game is pretty solid to because of how consistently he can get them with his Down-B, Leaf Shield. I don't think I've EVER watched a good , except for Aerolink. Even then, I believe it was early days so he wasn't as proficient. 's grab game is pretty underrated.

 

[Mario766]

Yikes, I got attacked.

I never once said that they should fix their problems, they shouldn't. They take a character that is performing less than they think they should, slap on a good throw, call it a day.

Funny how Larry is the one on the fore front too, damn I must be hated.

No character should be changed to Sheik, because no character has the same play style as Sheik.

However, you say DK is fine as he is, I don't agree. I could see some minor changes that'd help the character. The character still has trouble in neutral, and still has a rough time off-stage. No amount of kill confirms off a grab will change his issues. I don't play DK, so I won't suggest the changes and I'll leave that to someone who knows more about the character.

I honestly believe Bowser is in a better position than DK. His jab on paper looks ridicious, but it's frame 7-9. If it was faster and didn't keep the same FAF we'd have Ike 2.0. Down Tilt comes out frame 10, but has only 22 frames of end lag, that's fast for a heavy character, F-Tilt has range and 24 frames fo endlag. The main issue Bowser has is getting his grabs into huge damage, and surviving disadvantage/landing, which won't be fixed anytime soon.

Bowser or DK getting slight buffs in Corrin/Bayonetta patch would not surprise me. Bowser will never get back to Demo status, and will likely not be high tier until he does.

Heavies are a flawed design in Smash. They usually have a bad hard time in competitive play. They usually are comboed too easily, usually don't have the speed to keep up with the agile speedsters and usually lack good frame data, the times when heavies become good is when they have outrageous properties that make them worthwile to use.

Only real exceptions are

Falcon - Lightning Bruiser. The concept of the fast heavy is either really good or not effective, depending on how strong the character gets. His somewhat bad frame data is offset by his sheer reward and killing power.

DDD - Chain Grabs. Another flawed concept in Smash.

Snake - Projectiles, traps, Up Tilt tilting people easier than you getting the move to hit because the hitbox is literally a country mile. Ike wields a mighty oak tree as a sword, Snake uses dimensions to attack you with his upward kick that magically hits you a mile away.

Ryu - A heavy who doesn't play like a heavy. I wonder why the concept works, he's barely a heavyweight at all, weight wise.

Word to the wise:

SV shares FD's ceiling data, unless you are on SV's platform, even then it isn't as bad as BF's top platform or TnC's platforms or DL's platforms, because they are so much closer to the top.

 

[Wintropy]

I was going to mention / but I simply assumed people KNEW their grab game was good.

They do, but it's my sacred duty or something to bring up Pit whenever I can. Nice to remind people, I guess~

I've EVER watched a good , except for Aerolink. Even then, I believe it was early days so he wasn't as proficient.

Short version: jab1 confirms into grab, d-throw can be followed up with just about any aerial depending on DI, d-throw -> b-air / u-air can kill. It's not exceptional because, that I know of, nothing is guaranteed beyond early percents and she has no instant kill throws, but it's something. Her other throws are okay at best: b-throw is good for positioning, f-throw and u-throw don't have much utility. It's undoubtedly her biggest strength as a character.

 

[Mario766]

Is jab 1 really a grab confirm? I thought it was more of a mix-up than anything. The only time it worked on me was the first time that I played against a competent Palutena, where they didn't go straight for grabs but used the hit to get a positional advantage and adapted to my reaction after the hit, and either went for a grab or reset to neutral in a slightly better stage position.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dedede had a lot more than just chain grabs. A lot of his core problems as a heavy were addressed in some way with the tools he had. Waddles were great projectile sponges and were also good for harassing people from a distance letting him to play his walling game from a larger range. Ftilt was also a great tool for dealing with projectiles, and was a fairly safe long ranged poke.

Bair in of itself was a silly tool he could safely poke at you with. I think you could short hop and get two bairs out, something you usually don't see from a heavy like that. He also had superior landing options, from inhale's grab armor to dair not being completely worthless. I think Fair also auto-canceled out of a short hop...

They took a lot away from Dedede and didn't really compensate for it, or gave him options that look good on the surface until you see how flawed they are in areas that matter (Gordo, Bair, Dair).

I'm not really complaining because the character clearly needed to be retooled, but...yeah. Even without chain grabs, Brawl Dedede would be a fairly good character. I have to admit, sometimes I boot up Brawl just to relive the glory days of penguin jank.

 

[AlvisCPU]

You don't want to stale F-Throw that much, though. If you can't close out a stock, you really need something to rely on. U-Throw is pretty good I will admit.

Who are some of the characters that have an underrated grab game? has been established but I think is super underrated because you would assume he gets literally nothing out of them but they can be. 's grab game is actually pretty strong and I'm not sure what the general consensus on / but I've heard people think it's bad because the range is mediocre at best.

I'm hardly an expert, but I was under the impression that / was good purely because dthrow leads into that amazing jab combo up to really high percents. Useful for both dealing damage and sealing stocks. I guess the range is pretty average though.

Whilst I have main bias, I can confirm that 's is solid enough. Whilst his range is short, his Arts help his grab game a tonne.
- Uthrow puts his opponent in a terrible position, Jump can offer some nice follow-ups.
- Fthrow deals the best damage iirc, not useful for much else.
- Bthrow is a fairly solid kill throw, becomes very reliable under Smash. Jump helps to follow-up with edgeguards.
- Dthrow is where it's at. Weird because it functions both as a combo and kill throw. At low %'s, Speed allows you to both combo into grabs (nair->dtilt->dash grab is easier) and combo out of dthrow (with fair). Buster can nearly deal 30% with just dthrow -> Air Slash. At high %'s, it's a kill throw. Smash obviously makes it more potent, and Jump can edgeguard.

Also, I'll second that 's grab game is boss. Jab->grab all day. Actually, that's the main thing she has going for her in a competitive sense. Dthrow combos are insane.

 

[Wintropy]

Is jab 1 really a grab confirm? I thought it was more of a mix-up than anything. The only time it worked on me was the first time that I played against a competent Palutena, where they didn't go straight for grabs but used the hit to get a positional advantage and adapted to my reaction after the hit, and either went for a grab or reset to neutral in a slightly better stage position.

It works both ways. I tend to use it for grabs, but it does have mixup potential. I tend to use it to punish rolls or spotdodges (rapid jab is especially good for this). Been a while since I've used Palutena in bracket, but I've gotten good mileage out of it that way.

Thanks for reminding me of that. Haven't had a good opportunity to play Pally in a while.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah since uthrow doesn't require the positioning it's really nice to have a strong one. Although Ness' bthrow could still be argued to be about the same. Here's a post of mine from when I tried to tell people how to DI Charizards uthrow and that it was a bit overrated...:

Just tested Kirbys uthrow too for comparison. It KOs at 159 % (DI away and a little bit down at the start, then hold straight down to vector against it). I'm actually surprised it is that strong, didn't look like that from what I've seen (postpatch), but I guess it has a better angle than Charizard's so DI isn't helping as much.
To see how much it helps against Charizard: without DI / vectoring Kirby KOs at 147 and Charizard at 126. Both KO at 159 % if DI'd correctly.

That's interesting, I'm surprised Kirby's is that strong as well. It was hugely buffed though I guess.

But yeah, a killing Uthrow is by far the most valuable kill throw to have. Uthrows in general are pretty weak in this game and few characters can rely on non-rage Uthrows to kill, but a killing Uthrow is a really nice "fallback" kill option.

Bear in mind that Greninja's is stronger than Link's against certain characters. It KOs Mario 2% later but KOs Jigglypuff and Bowser 2% earlier. It's really weird. Probably based on fall speed (I don't think it's KBG because why would the heaviest and lightest character in the game both get KO'd earlier?).

Ness' Bthrow is the exception because of its immense power making positioning not matter. I think the second best Bthrow in the game was prepatch Sonic's. It wasn't horribly strong, but the animation always brings him closer to the ledge so it gets a nice boost.

 

[Browny]

Depending on %, Villagers bthrow is realistically speaking the 2nd strongest one in the game (after Ness). At lower %, if you don't DI / vector correctly some others are still stronger, but Villagers seems to have a much higher knockback growth, which makes it the 2nd strongest at %s above ~125 or something (Shulk smash-monadu being the contestant here, which will periodically get much weaker the higher the % gets because of Villagers great KBG).

Here are some of my (pretty old) testings to find out the strongest bthrows:

(KO-% on omega at edge, on mario, no rage)
no vectoring:

Ness: 80 %
Shulk (Smash): 90 %
Luigi: 98 %
Toon Link: 98 %
Sonic: 99 % (prepatch) -> patch 117 %
Villager: 104 %

with vectoring (horizontal):

Ness: 94 %
Shulk (Smash): 120 %
Villager: 121 %
Sonic: 123 % (prepatch) -> patch 148 %
Toon Link: 127 %
DK: 130 %

As you can see, Villager moves up super quickly.

I just deleted all my old videos of this, but I am 99% sure the bthrows in order of killing at the edge with perfect DI is

Ness
Smash Shulk
Villager
Lucas
Mewtwo
Toon Link

 

[TurboLink]

The Meteor Smash hitbox for Link's dair lasts 4 frames.

Uh... Link's Mortal Blow spikes on frames 14-17 which means it has 4 active spike frames. Problem is that it's hella slow compared to Cloud's. Oh, and Toon Link's spikes on frames 17-25, so 9 active spike frames. Problem with his, outside of speed which is everyone's problem with Dair, is that you're going to die off-stage. Shulk's multi-hit Dair spikes on frames 23-24, but if you manage to get the first hit which you will, then its total is 4 active frames.

Outside of that... the only unfortunate spikers that are swordsmen are Lucina, Marth, and the Pits where they have to hit with exactly 1 frame. After that, 2 spike frames are kind of common and for swordsmen, that's Ike, Robin, Roy, and technically Shulk. 3 frames is kind of common, but for swordsmen, it's only Cloud and Link. And then you have Toon Link.

Looks like someone else got to it first.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the Meteor Smash hitbox for Link's dair lasts 3 or 4 frames.

It does, yeah. Frame 14-17 which is 4 frames I believe (counting the initial 14th.) And I mean the move comes out a bit later but its active frames are super long. Link Dair is simply amazing for edgeguarding low, basically.