Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[SaltyKracka]

"You can't make some characters good because whoops their design"

Then their design sucks and you need to go back to the drawing board instead of tossing out some basic excuses and giving up.

 

[Nah]

Yeah, but we aren't really expecting them to completely rework a character from square 1 (let alone multiple ones) in a patch, are we?

 

[Mili]

Everyone continues to argue whether and need to be nerfed or low-tier characters need to be buffed in order to fix their problems and make them viable. Why can't we have both? Slight nerfs to both characters, possibly other oppressive characters such as or , AND get the characters who have major problems improvements throughout their moveset? Like it's been said 1000 times before, certain styles of character will simply be better than others and that is completely fine but it doesn't mean that the bad characters should stay bad.

A perfect example is to look at how characters change between games. You had and who were absolutely amazing characters yet now, isn't really making an impact at all. Or take the character of Mario for example. and weren't stellar characters but he has been severely improved and is now an extremely viable character in the mould of. Both these characters have been heavily changed over the last 3 games yet have stayed true to their style. There is literally no reason we can't have Sheik and ZSS nerfed, low-tiers buffed and they all stay true to their style.

 

[Y2Kay]

I play a lot of low tiers () and I can say without a doubt that nerfs will be extremely helpful, but there are others too.

I've posted this before, but all demolish low tiers where it isn't even funny. I could see getting a pass on the nerf hammer, but the others I could definitely see getting nerfed

 

[R3D3MON]

Sheik has needles that invalidate some characters' approaches, Sheik has a frame 5 F-air that stretches 'till the horizon... Toning down those, like I said, will not move her to the trash can. Nerfing those are completely fine because they aren't adding depths to the character, they're just plain dumb moves that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm sure a character with excellent mobility, damage racking ability, and safety is not balanced when they are also equipped with the best camping/zoning projectile in the game and an extremely fast aerial that outranges a sword on a character with outstanding SHFF game and a very generous AC window.

I do agree that she needs some nerfs. As I said before, she needs a bit more vulnerabilities during her recovery because she is a little bit too safe on that regard. However I think most of her properties are fine the way they are because of counterplays that can definitely be used against her. For needles, the solution is very simple and doable: perfect shielding. Shielding in general is such a powerful defense tool in this game (along with airdodging and rolling), which is why I think most projectile/zoning characters do not go very far in this game, except for some characters that use projectiles to trap opponents into specific states (i.e. villager and his ledge coverage, megaman vs shielding opponents). Perfect shielding can be done on reaction (with practice), which is why pro players do it all the time. And specifically in the case of needles, it is basically a camping tool, not an approaching tool so you can always just perfect shield it (P.S. this is an even easier way to perfect shield: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRTro3JRog0&index=15&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h skip to 1:46 in the video). The only tweaks I would make on needles would be increasing the startup on needles a bit (from frame 1 move to frame 5 or frame 6 maybe), and making the needles a little bit more visible.

Sheik's fair maybe needs a slight range nerf, but otherwise acts just like other characters fast aerials. And of course you could always react to sheiks fairing with a good shield grab. Also as mentioned before many characters can afford to take damage or long strings from sheik (even light characters) because sheik is a tall, fastfaller, so she is a actually a combo food character who also dies rather quickly because of her lightweight (similar to fox and falco), so you can always make a comeback on sheik.

Sorry if I sound like a sheik-lover, but I just don't think sheik is really all that oppressive in the meta, and most of her tools are rather balanced out by her character attributes and weak damage output and knockback on most of her moves (and ones that have power are SUPER laggy and punishable, i.e. sheik's tipper up smash).

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yes, Shiek is so balanced. That's the reason she's been top tier literally since the game came out.

 

[Sleek Media]

Wait I thought Megaman was already considered (questionably) viable. I mean ScATT has been doing some amazing stuff with the character, and I have seen increasing number of megaman users (stylesx2 comes to mind) that doing better and better in tournaments. As megaman's meta evolves even further, I don't see why he would not be considered viable. Sheik also basically invalidates luigi for the same reasons that she invalidates others, except luigi has it even worse because poor range, poor mobility, and no effective projectile game to keep out sheik (he has fireballs, but sheik has her needles), and luigi is still considered viable by many and even unquestionably solo-viable by some people (which at this point I think is completely unreasonable and false, but w/e). Also I have seen mario somewhat pose the same problems as sheik, plus he also has his up smash to always threaten megaman's landing. Would you be in favor of nerfing mario too?

I think the reason for nerfing sheik and ZSS to make more low tiers valid/viable is dumb and decreases the meta potential. There is no reason to nerf characters that are highly technical and interesting to learn and play (but not always play against). As stated before, sheik really only needs some nerfs on her recovery to make it less safe, but no other nerfs should be considered for her IMO since she does not have nearly the same super-abusable tools that other high tier characters had in melee or brawl (i.e. melee and brawl marth's range basically invalidates and shuts down any and every mario and luigi's approach games completely X__X).

Scatt got 8th one time, in a bracket that clearly didn't know the MU. As soon as he ran into a competent Shiek he got obliterated, and it's not his fault. If you think Mega can "wall" Shiek with projectiles, you don't know anything about Mega and need to refrain from commenting on him. His Shiek MU is a good candidate for the worst MU in the game because she swats everything he throws except charge shot (lol), and even if you could keep her out, she still beats us easily because lol needle camp.

Nerfing her to make other characters viable is not a stupid idea. It's an excellent one, unless you are biased and like Shiek. I don't remember the Rosalina and Diddy mains crying like Shiek mains do whenever the topic of nerfs came up.

 

[TurboLink]

As long as Sheik keeps her excellent mobility and combo/string game, I believe the Sheik matchup will always be bad for Mega Man.

Like all zoners Mega Man prefers someone slow. Which Sheik is obviously not.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Scatt got 8th one time, in a bracket that clearly didn't know the MU. As soon as he ran into a competent Shiek he got obliterated, and it's not his fault. If you think Mega can "wall" Shiek with projectiles, you don't know anything about Mega and need to refrain from commenting on him. His Shiek MU is a good candidate for the worst MU in the game because she swats everything he throws except charge shot (lol), and even if you could keep her out, she still beats us easily because lol needle camp.

Nerfing her to make other characters viable is not a stupid idea. It's an excellent one, unless you are biased and like Shiek. I don't remember the Rosalina and Diddy mains crying like Shiek mains do whenever the topic of nerfs came up.

*In my Piccolo voice*

"I have NEVER felt a fearsome power such as this!!!!!"

Sleek Media layin down the knowledge. I'm likin it.

 

[R3D3MON]

Scatt got 8th one time, in a bracket that clearly didn't know the MU. As soon as he ran into a competent Shiek he got obliterated, and it's not his fault. If you think Mega can "wall" Shiek with projectiles, you don't know anything about Mega and need to refrain from commenting on him. His Shiek MU is a good candidate for the worst MU in the game because she swats everything he throws except charge shot (lol), and even if you could keep her out, she still beats us easily because lol needle camp.

Nerfing her to make other characters viable is not a stupid idea. It's an excellent one, unless you are biased and like Shiek. I don't remember the Rosalina and Diddy mains crying like Shiek mains do whenever the topic of nerfs came up.

Sorry for the misinformation. I thought he was able to pressure her shield with leaf shield shenanigans and pellets, and punish her when she drops shield with down thrown metal blade into up tilt and such. At least this is what I've seen from megaman users. Again, sorry for my ignorance.

I just want to be clear about my point tho: I do agree that sheik needs some nerfs, just not to the extent that some people are taking. I think slight tweaks on her vanish and needles should be fine, since she already received several nerfs that rather toned her down kill potential and power.

Also could you tell me at which tournament ScATT got 8th? And do you remember which sheik he lost to? Sorry if I am sounding a bit too demanding, I just thought this was very interesting information regarding ScATT since he beat other competent sheiks (i.e. wizzrobe) before.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sorry for the misinformation. I thought he was able to pressure her shield with leaf shield shenanigans and pellets, and punish her when she drops shield with down thrown metal blade into up tilt and such. At least this is what I've seen from megaman users. Again, sorry for my ignorance.

I just want to be clear about my point tho: I do agree that sheik needs some nerfs, just not to the extent that some people are taking. I think slight tweaks on her vanish and needles should be fine, since she already received several nerfs that rather toned her down kill potential and power.

Also could you tell me at which tournament ScATT got 8th? And do you remember which sheik he lost to? Sorry if I am sounding a bit too demanding, I just thought this was very interesting information regarding ScATT since he beat other competent sheiks (i.e. wizzrobe) before.

that's MLG. there's also tipped off too, but I'm less familiar with that one.

 

[Luigi player]

Megamans weight / fallspeed is one of his biggest downfalls against Sheik sadly. He gets combo'd for days, it really feels terrible. It's way worse than with most other characters. If you get hit once you're basically always gonna get like 50 % and to the other end of the stage. I thought it wouldn't be too bad until I tried the MU again... zoning her out is also really difficult. Sheik has the best (fastest) dash -> shield in the game and her dashgrab is really good. It's easier for her to get in (with grabs / fairs) or stay out (needles).

 

[R3D3MON]

that's MLG. there's also tipped off too, but I'm less familiar with that one.

Okay thank you for the information. If I am not mistaken there was also Smash n' Splash where ScATT actually made it to GF through the winners bracket.

Megamans weight / fallspeed is one of his biggest downfalls against Sheik sadly. He gets combo'd for days, it really feels terrible. It's way worse than with most other characters. If you get hit once you're basically always gonna get like 50 % and to the other end of the stage. I thought it wouldn't be too bad until I tried the MU again... zoning her out is also really difficult. Sheik has the best (fastest) dash -> shield in the game and her dashgrab is really good. It's easier for her to get in (with grabs / fairs) or stay out (needles).

Okay thank you for clarifying the weak points Megaman has vs. sheik. I guess it was really just ScATT's superior skill and knowledge of megaman and mathcup unfamiliarity vs. megaman that allowed ScATT to beat several sheiks in the past.

 

[Appledees]

Needles more or less invalidate anything Megaman does lol

Fair and the dash grab are bad but needles you can't counterplay against it at all. I remember seeing Scatt just struggle to do anything cause needles just don't give a **** about anything what you do.

I'll be honest even if Sheik was nerfed Mario would still be a gatekeeper for Megaman but that matchup is at least sorta winnable compared to Sheik.

 

[S_B]

... that's not a lot.

That is one good ZSS per country... Mars is English right?

There are many more Shiek mains, but really only five good ones.

I said "a few off the top of my head". I'm not going to go through every single smash scene in the world and list all the ZSS mains, especially since the number of them is largely irrelevant.

And as I mentioned in the post, the ZSS mains have managed to push ZSS' metagame VERY far, meaning ZSS is exceptional at crushing lower tiers like bugs.

Sheik, ZSS, and to a lesser extent Rosalina, are responsible for making it an exercise in futility to main a large chunk of the roster. That's what needs to change before Sakurai is done patching the game or we're going to be dealing with 5 more years of GFs largely consisting of the same 2-3 characters.

 

[Sleek Media]

Mario is bad for Mega, but only moderately. I've had many close games with Boss, and even won friendlies, and there is no doubt that he's a higher level player.

Mega's three worse MUs are Shiek, Fox, Falcon. Shiek is truly unwinnable if she knows the MU and has a high level player. Fox is a nightmare because despite doing a crappier job of what Shiek does, his laser camp is safe, and literally everything in his kit starts a combo. All he has to do is build a small lead and force Mega to approach with laser camp->illusion away. Good luck salvaging that game. Falcon is number three because we actually can walk him...for a few seconds. His incredible speed garuntees that he will get in, and if he gets his hands on us, it's a bad time. Gimping him is much harder than theorycraft would have you believe, and it's just as easy for him to gimp Mega. The main problem with Falcon is that he really only needs one read to close a stock super early. He just overwhelms with speed, power, and damage output.

Aside from those three, Mega really hates characters with a bouncing fish-type move. Pikachu, Diddy, etc. he really has no way to approach or apply meaningful pressure to those characters, and instead has to rely on retreating with pellets and hiding in leaf shield. You don't see it much in tournament yet, but eventually people will figure out how powerful patient/defensive play is with those characters...unless Shiek goes unchecked and everyone starts playing her anyway.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Megamans weight / fallspeed is one of his biggest downfalls against Sheik sadly. He gets combo'd for days, it really feels terrible. It's way worse than with most other characters.

Alright, I get annoyed every single time I see this sort of thing and I think it's time to finally settle once and for all.

I have seen people claim that Shiek's weight and fast fall speed make her combo food. I have seen people claim that Rosalina's weight and floatiness makes her combo food. I know for a fact that superheavies are combo food due to being...y'know...heavies and not having much in the way of combo breakers or aerial mobility.

So, the actual issue. Is there a combination of weight and fall speed that people on this board won't claim makes a character combo food, or can we just stop using this claim once and for all?

 

[S_B]

I'll be honest even if Sheik was nerfed Mario would still be a gatekeeper for Megaman but that matchup is at least sorta winnable compared to Sheik.

And "Sorta winnable" is still infinitely better than what most characters are looking at against ZSS/Sheik.

Everyone continues to argue whether and need to be nerfed or low-tier characters need to be buffed in order to fix their problems and make them viable. Why can't we have both? Slight nerfs to both characters, possibly other oppressive characters such as or , AND get the characters who have major problems improvements throughout their moveset? Like it's been said 1000 times before, certain styles of character will simply be better than others and that is completely fine but it doesn't mean that the bad characters should stay bad.

A perfect example is to look at how characters change between games. You had and who were absolutely amazing characters yet now, isn't really making an impact at all. Or take the character of Mario for example. and weren't stellar characters but he has been severely improved and is now an extremely viable character in the mould of. Both these characters have been heavily changed over the last 3 games yet have stayed true to their style. There is literally no reason we can't have Sheik and ZSS nerfed, low-tiers buffed and they all stay true to their style.

And it likely WILL be both, but here's the thing most folks don't seem to get (not you, per se): buffing the 30+ characters who struggle against ZSS/Sheik in their CURRENT state would be a balancing nightmare.

But nerfing ZSS and Sheik FIRST would put them in a far more reasonable place, ideally in a place where we wouldn't be trying to balance the rest of the cast around their ability to handle ZSS and Sheik specifically.

 

[AEMehr]

i'd like to hear more about this when you feel up to explaining it. pm me or tag me if you are willing to go more in depth about gunner's meta

Tag me as well, while you're at it AEMehr ! I love hearing about underrated/unexplored characters, it's always very amazing to see what they can do. It's easy to miss the more subtle aspects of character attributes and whatnot sometimes.

I'll have to remember to do that when I have more time, but thank you for asking me these things! I normally kinda just get brung up here when a friend points out discussion happening with Miis and I just lurk.

Unfortunately this is my big problem with Brawler. I'm wondering if this character is meant to just do everything into UP B, or did someone attempt to test 1111 Brawler and decided it was a threatening well balanced character. He feels almost like a mockery of Fox, where everything almost works but hilariously backfires.

1111 Brawler has interesting kill set ups (but you probably want to be sure they die first or you're a stock ahead before you try them), but at the end of the day his major flaw is lack of recovery.

 

[bc1910]

This is my personal opinion on greninja's worst matchups:
1.
2.
3.
4.

none of the of the other's really matter that much. Greninja already is even with ZSS because we can shadow sneak out boost kick (which if we do, gives us an opportunity for foot stool combos ) and we also like to play out of her range with shuriken spam. Pikachu is truly not THAT bad, it's just frustrating to fight the tiny little guy when he has high mobility.
That's kinda the root cause of a lot of Greninja's bad MU's. They have equal mobility / better mobility and/or don't care about shurikens. Greninja likes to play outside of your range with his shuriken, condition you, then abuse his high mobility to rush in with his (awesome) dash grab and get a combo started.
At least, that's how I play him

​

I think you've got the right idea here.

I would say Diddy is harder than Pikachu though. Diddy creates similar problems to Sheik in that his frame data, and neutral in general, is extremely good. Pika's frame data, whilst great, is a little more sensible. Also his cornerstone move, Quick Attack, has to be used carefully against Greninja because Hydro Pump forces Pikachu into the air and into helpless if he ever QAs into it. Hydro Pump away is safe to throw out in neutral as much as you want.

I would say Fox, Diddy and Pikachu are about as bad as each other. Fox has gotten a little better with time. All 3 could be difficult even MUs or slightly losing MUs.

I don't think Greninja loses to any other characters but he has some difficult evens. The character that jumps to mind as Greninja's next hardest MU for me is actually Pit. Pit has quite a few things Greninja hates. Hard to gimp recovery, great autocancels, the ability to put out hitboxes everywhere and a pretty strong grab game. Not to mention fast dodges and a Fthrow that generally kills earlier than Greninja's Uthrow.

Lucario would be next, because Greninja struggles to kill him before he dies to some kind of Aura-boosted nonsense. Similar situation with Wario, but replace Aura with Waft.

Honourable mentions to Ryu, MK and ZSS, all of whom have to be massively respected to not die to at 60%. We can Shadow Sneak out of Shuttle Loop and Boost Kick on a fairly consistent basis, especially for Boost Kick. If ZSS has rage or platforms though, BK or simply Uairs will murder Greninja like they murder everyone else. Shuttle Loop requires the light hitstun version of the first hit to be escapable; if MK is close enough to us when he initiates it, he will get a launching version of the first hit that cannot be hitstun cancelled.

 

[Sleek Media]

I want to have a discussion about Rosalina's competitive strength.

I think it's way out of line to put her on the same level as Shiek and ZSS. We're not on 1.0 anymore. There's no comparing her offensive/defensive/recovery capabilities to Shiek at all, and her one early KO "uAir..." can just be jumped out of, unlike ZSS' version, which can be true combo'd out of safe nAirs, ZAir, grab/paralyzer, and of course uAir on any stage. Rosa is very slow, and has poor landing options, while Shiek/ZSS are fast and can flip kick to safety any time someone gets under them. Rosa has a deliberate weakness that you can exploit. Shiek and ZSS...not so much. In terms of attacking safely, Rosa can space you with Luma, but it almost always leaves Luma vulnerable. What punish comes after a properly spaced Shiek fAir or ZSS nAir? How about MU spread? Shiek arguably has two or three 50:50s, one of which is ZSS. ZSS has a slightly negative MU against...pika? Anyone else? Rosa on the other hand loses to both of them, along with Falcon, Pika, and possibly others (she isn't my main), as well as going even with characters in lower tiers like Mega Man.

I think a lot of Rosa's success comes from people not knowing the MU at all. Not knowing anything about what kills Luma instantly, not knowing when Luma can and cannot act, not knowing where to be to avoid her hitboxes and counter attack, not knowing how to catch he landings, not knowing that grabbing her is safe as long as you throw her immediately, and so on. People just go in with no idea what they're doing, get bopped by Luma, and make the easy excuse that Luma is some kind of monster and that Rosalina is simply overpowered. Before you know it, the Smash community's echo chamber kicks in and Rosa's in a very undeserved number three spot.

Does this make sense to anyone? If you think she is on the level of Shiek/ZSS, why?

 

[S_B]

I want to have a discussion about Rosalina's competitive strength.

I think it's way out of line to put her on the same level as Shiek and ZSS. We're not on 1.0 anymore. There's no comparing her offensive/defensive/recovery capabilities to Shiek at all, and her one early KO "uAir..." can just be jumped out of, unlike ZSS' version, which can be true combo'd out of safe nAirs, ZAir, grab/paralyzer, and of course uAir on any stage. Rosa is very slow, and has poor landing options, while Shiek/ZSS are fast and can flip kick to safety any time someone gets under them. Rosa has a deliberate weakness that you can exploit. Shiek and ZSS...not so much. In terms of attacking safely, Rosa can space you with Luma, but it almost always leaves Luma vulnerable. What punish comes after a properly spaced Shiek fAir or ZSS nAir? How about MU spread? Shiek arguably has two or three 50:50s, one of which is ZSS. ZSS has a slightly negative MU against...pika? Anyone else? Rosa on the other hand loses to both of them, along with Falcon, Pika, and possibly others (she isn't my main), as well as going even with characters in lower tiers like Mega Man.

I think a lot of Rosa's success comes from people not knowing the MU at all. Not knowing anything about what kills Luma instantly, not knowing when Luma can and cannot act, not knowing where to be to avoid her hitboxes and counter attack, not knowing how to catch he landings, not knowing that grabbing her is safe as long as you throw her immediately, and so on. People just go in with no idea what they're doing, get bopped by Luma, and make the easy excuse that Luma is some kind of monster and that Rosalina is simply overpowered. Before you know it, the Smash community's echo chamber kicks in and Rosa's in a very undeserved number three spot.

Does this make sense to anyone? If you think she is on the level of Shiek/ZSS, why?

I said "to a lesser extent" because of her results, and the fact that even the Japanese tier list puts her in the top with ZSS, Sheik and Sanic.

But Rosa does have legitimate counter play in killing Luma, and while she's not terrible without Luma, she's nowhere near the force she otherwise was. Rosa at least HAS a disadvantaged state, whereas Sheik and ZSS basically don't. Both of their recoveries are not only difficult but DANGEROUS to exploit to the point where you're more likely to die from challenging them than they are.

But yeah, Rosa's top in all of the tier lists as well, especially in Japan where Sakurai pays attention so I wouldn't be surprised to see some small nerfs.

Yeah, but we aren't really expecting them to completely rework a character from square 1 (let alone multiple ones) in a patch, are we?

No one is asking for that ("going back to the drawing board" can be something as simple as refocusing a character around some other part of their moveset, which Sakurai has done several times post launch already), and it's not necessary, either.

We don't have to completely rework Sheik to not make her murder 3/4ths of the cast, just like they didn't need to completely rework Ike to make him not crap.

 

[bc1910]

I don't think Rosalina is as strong as Sheik or ZSS. She does have legitimate counterplay, as you pointed out. And in general, if you know the MU, you shouldn't be dying that early to her. That's easy to say, but it's very true; if you don't get caught spamming airdodge near the top of the screen, her Uair frame traps aren't going to kill you. Compare this to ZSS who can threaten a KO with pretty much every hit, and no matter how well you learn the MU, methinks you're gonna get hit once in a while.

I actually don't think Rosalina as strong as Ryu or Sonic either.

I'd say Rosa, Diddy, Pika, Fox and Mario in no particular order are about as strong as each other. Any of them could take the 5th spot in top 5 IMO but it doesn't matter; I think the top 4 are quite a bit stronger than the rest of the cast.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sheik's F-Air has the main issue that the move got changed from Melee/Brawl *Correct me if it got changed in Brawl and not Smash 4*

It basically has the same data as Melee, but it does so much less damage that it went from a killing move to basically the best combo move in the game, while still keeping the exact same data.

It's still Frame 5
Still auto cancels frames 1-4 and >11
Still has a big disjoint

However OTHER characters lost range, which is huge. Now you have to have a great sword to outrange Sheik's F-Air, which makes it way more abusive in practice.

I think this escaped the developers when they designed the move to be a combo tool. I know the developers want Sheik to be a speedy, safe combo machine, but they gave her way too much range for a move that is so safe already, kinda like how they made Diddy's up-air a frame 3 nuke that ALSO had an absurd hitbox, however that got toned down, but Sheik's F-Air stayed basically the same, I don't care if the damage got nerfed, the damage wasn't the problem, it was the fact it could be used almost liberally + combo people without combo breakers across the entire stage basically due to not having any SDI to really get out of the strings.

Here is specifically what happened to Sheik's Fair.

The range/disjoint was increased. I recently checked out Fair in Melee and Brawl and they have noticeably less range. Another thing is the knockback angle. Smash 4 is 50 degrees while Melee and Brawl is 30 degrees. Combined with faster ground and especially air speed (and the new down B) Sheik's Fair completely transformed into a combo starter. One that is very safe to throw out with its range, her mobility, and her increased fall and especially fast fall speed (all Smash 4 characters' fast falls increase fall speeds more than previous games).

Oh and Melee does 13% and thanks to Melee's poor recoveries, high hitstun, high gravity all with that semi-spike knockback angle it is her main killing tool.

Brawl's does 9% (I don't know if knockback values were also nerfed) and is very weak. Like as weak or maybe even weaker than Smash 4's. It is obviously still a good move but it doesn't accomplish things for Sheik like her Melee and Smash 4 Fair does.

And to that Sheik lover person who recently said that you can just shield grab Fair. STOP.

 

[Locke 06]

Sheik v Mega is a completely different MegaMan matchup that requires a different play style akin to little Mac v Mega.

At mid-level and people who don't play vs good sheiks regularly, it's a terrible terrible matchup because they try to do Mega Man things, press buttons, and then get combo'd across the stage and edge guarded until they die. They have a fundamentally flawed gameplan of "I need to go in because needles, but I need to keep her out because of FAir and grab" which is binary thinking, which is mid-level smash thinking.

Pro tip: Stop looking at Sheik FAir as a single move. That is hindering your basic understanding of the character.

On an aside: I have just now realized the greatness of Villager now that I've switched away from Megaman. Awesome character. Why is Pikachu considered the best edge guarder in the game? Villager's option coverage is beautiful.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I said "to a lesser extent" because of her results, and the fact that even the Japanese tier list puts her in the top with ZSS, Sheik and Sanic.

But Rosa does have legitimate counter play in killing Luma, and while she's not terrible without Luma, she's nowhere near the force she otherwise was. Rosa at least HAS a disadvantaged state, whereas Sheik and ZSS basically don't. Both of their recoveries are not only difficult but DANGEROUS to exploit to the point where you're more likely to die from challenging them than they are.

But yeah, Rosa's top in all of the tier lists as well, especially in Japan where Sakurai pays attention so I wouldn't be surprised to see some small nerfs.



No one is asking for that ("going back to the drawing board" can be something as simple as refocusing a character around some other part of their moveset, which Sakurai has done several times post launch already), and it's not necessary, either.

We don't have to completely rework Sheik to not make her murder 3/4ths of the cast, just like they didn't need to completely rework Ike to make him not crap.

Are all considered to be at least borderline viable with counter picks attached. Sheik's a bad MU for all, but is definitely not the brawl metaknight D3 type character you're making her out to be.

 

[S_B]

I don't think Rosalina is as strong as Sheik or ZSS. She does have legitimate counterplay, as you pointed out. And in general, if you know the MU, you shouldn't be dying that early to her. That's easy to say, but it's very true; if you don't get caught spamming airdodge near the top of the screen, her Uair frame traps aren't going to kill you. Compare this to ZSS who can threaten a KO with pretty much every hit, and no matter how well you learn the MU, methinks you're gonna get hit once in a while.

I actually don't think Rosalina as strong as Ryu or Sonic either.

I'd say Rosa, Diddy, Pika, Fox and Mario in no particular order are about as strong as each other. Any of them could take the 5th spot in top 5 IMO but it doesn't matter; I think the top 4 are quite a bit stronger than the rest of the cast.

You're preaching to the choir on that one.

Like I said, Rosa CAN be at a disadvantage, especially considering that her Up+B has no hitbox on it.

But again, the Japanese tier list is what it is (and much of it is actually rather confusing, like Bowser at B+ tier...).

Are all considered to be at least borderline viable with counter picks attached. Sheik's a bad MU for all, but is definitely not the brawl metaknight D3 type character you're making her out to be.

ZSS seems to be worse for most characters than Sheik, actually, and I'm not going to sit here and have a "what makes ____ viable?" discussion.

I look at major tournament results, which over half of the characters you've listed have never taken, probably never made it to GF, and some probably haven't even made it to top 8 (and even if they have, it's considered a fluke and not a consistent event).

You can take locals with nearly any character and enough skill (it might require a TON of skill, depending upon your local competition), but big tournaments are dominated by top tiers, and for good reason.

 

[Yikarur]

1111 Brawler should really not be a thing... (because the rule is garbage for obvious reasons)

1122 / 2122 Brawler is a solid high tier. I think I'm one of the only default size Brawlers who really try to push his metagame, because people's region either allow Mini Mii or have them stupidly restricted. (or play upB only, which is dumb)

In my matches I rarely kill with upB in mid% because everyone knows the MU already. It's just not happening really often. But SideB, Dair, Upsmash and dsmash are his most reliable kill moves if you don't get Helicopter Kick connected.

I wish TO's would finally put a good rulesets on Mii's because the way it is now everyone is discouraged to even try playing Mii's and this way their metagame will never develop.

MLG did such a good example. Everyone should follow them..

 

[Nu~]

Sheik v Mega is a completely different MegaMan matchup that requires a different play style akin to little Mac v Mega.

At mid-level and people who don't play vs good sheiks regularly, it's a terrible terrible matchup because they try to do Mega Man things, press buttons, and then get combo'd across the stage and edge guarded until they die. They have a fundamentally flawed gameplan of "I need to go in because needles, but I need to keep her out because of FAir and grab" which is binary thinking, which is mid-level smash thinking.

Pro tip: Stop looking at Sheik FAir as a single move. That is hindering your basic understanding of the character.

On an aside: I have just now realized the greatness of Villager now that I've switched away from Megaman. Awesome character. Why is Pikachu considered the best edge guarder in the game? Villager's option coverage is beautiful.

Now I'm curious.

I agree that it's a very different matchup that requires mega man to play far outside of his comfort zone, but then, how does mega man approach the matchup?

 

[Sleek Media]

Sheik v Mega is a completely different MegaMan matchup that requires a different play style akin to little Mac v Mega.

At mid-level and people who don't play vs good sheiks regularly, it's a terrible terrible matchup because they try to do Mega Man things, press buttons, and then get combo'd across the stage and edge guarded until they die. They have a fundamentally flawed gameplan of "I need to go in because needles, but I need to keep her out because of FAir and grab" which is binary thinking, which is mid-level smash thinking.

Pro tip: Stop looking at Sheik FAir as a single move. That is hindering your basic understanding of the character.

On an aside: I have just now realized the greatness of Villager now that I've switched away from Megaman. Awesome character. Why is Pikachu considered the best edge guarder in the game? Villager's option coverage is beautiful.

It's really not that complicated. She simply beats Mega Man at all ranges and in all respects. There is NOTHING Mega Man has on her. There is no position in which Mega Man has a tangible advantage thanks to bouncing fish. There is no strategy or game plan to formulate. It's just that bad. Mega Man does have to approach because of needles, and he will get crushed when he does. It's not mid-level thinking, it's just choosing to die fighting rather than die a death of a thousand needles.

Villager's coverage is good, but Pika creates frame traps and disruptions with the shocks. I would argue that Luigi has better edgeguarding than Villager. Once he drops down, he can fAir, dAir, bAir, and tornado, all of which can very easily gimp. Unlike Villager standing at the ledge with a tree or bowling ball, Luigi is applying pressure offstage in your face for lots of frames thanks to his low fall speed.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You're preaching to the choir on that one.

Like I said, Rosa CAN be at a disadvantage, especially considering that her Up+B has no hitbox on it.

But again, the Japanese tier list is what it is (and much of it is actually rather confusing, like Bowser at B+ tier...).



ZSS seems to be worse for most characters than Sheik, actually, and I'm not going to sit here and have a "what makes ____ viable?" discussion.

I look at major tournament results, which over half of the characters you've listed have never taken, probably never made it to GF, and some probably haven't even made it to top 8 (and even if they have, it's considered a fluke and not a consistent event).

You can take locals with nearly any character and enough skill (it might require a TON of skill, depending upon your local competition), but big tournaments are dominated by top tiers, and for good reason.

In the last patch, we will probably get a few more character buffs. However, the only top tier I see them nerfing is ZSS, wo, as far as I know, has been left untouched. Shiek is still the best character, but every game needs a best character. Also, just because Fox is the best doesn't mean he wins all the Melee tournies, Jiggs, Marth, Shiek and Falco all have a big chance to win. Plus, Sm4sh is way more balanced then Melee.

 

[Nu~]

Villager's coverage is good, but Pika creates frame traps and disruptions with the shocks. I would argue that Luigi has better edgeguarding than Villager. Once he drops down, he can fAir, dAir, bAir, and tornado, all of which can very easily gimp. Unlike Villager standing at the ledge with a tree or bowling ball, Luigi is applying pressure offstage in your face for lots of frames thanks to his low fall speed.

Villager doesn't have to wait on the ledge

He has the perfect combination of aerials for early gimps. Nair harassment, fair and Bair gimps, Dair spikes...and his floatiness makes it easy to hover around you while you try to come back.

The scary part is that he can do it all with no fear of going too far to return.

 

[ShadowKing]

Are all considered to be at least borderline viable with counter picks attached. Sheik's a bad MU for all, but is definitely not the brawl metaknight D3 type character you're making her out to be.

Even though shiek has a very good MU against every character she still falls low by kill moves for Example Shiek can be at a 100 and Mewtwo at 120 (Mewtwo being light can avoid being koed)One up Smash will kill shiek (These is a example)

 

[S_B]

Shiek is still the best character, but every game needs a best character.

I think the opposite of that statement is far more true: the optimal balance situation is when a game has NO clear "best character".

People are always going to have their opinions, but results speak louder than those ever will.

Even though shiek has a very good MU against every character she still falls low by kill moves for Example Shiek can be at a 100 and Mewtwo at 120 (Mewtwo being light can avoid being koed)One up Smash will kill shiek (These is a example)

Hypothetically, sure, and hypothetically, a Bowser player with great fundamentals who knows how to avoid Sheik's best punish situations could beat ZeRo to take Evo.

That's why I don't care to deal in hypotheticals (unless we're discussing what may hypothetically buff a character into being viable).

 

[Sleek Media]

Villager doesn't have to wait on the ledge

He has the perfect combination of aerials for early gimps. Nair harassment, fair and Bair gimps, Dair spikes...and his floatiness makes it easy to hover around you while you try to come back.

The scary part is that he can do it all with no fear of going too far to return.

Villager's offstage game is very tame. His nAir has a bad launch angle for gimping, so all you really have is an average spike that is randomly unreliable. fAir/bAir can gimp if you sweetspot, but nobody should let you get that close.

 

[Das Koopa]

"You can't make some characters good because whoops their design"

Then their design sucks and you need to go back to the drawing board instead of tossing out some basic excuses and giving up.

Ganondorf comes across as an example of this. It genuinely seems like the only way to make his moveset work is to strap a Melee engine onto his back.

In fairness, I think most of the "Worst" characters could work as designed with a few changes. Zelda, for example, could just use less lag and more utility/speed with Din's Fire, her Phantom could be buffed charged could be held, less endlag on Naryu's, etc.

 

[|RK|]

Alright, I get annoyed every single time I see this sort of thing and I think it's time to finally settle once and for all.

I have seen people claim that Shiek's weight and fast fall speed make her combo food. I have seen people claim that Rosalina's weight and floatiness makes her combo food. I know for a fact that superheavies are combo food due to being...y'know...heavies and not having much in the way of combo breakers or aerial mobility.

So, the actual issue. Is there a combination of weight and fall speed that people on this board won't claim makes a character combo food, or can we just stop using this claim once and for all?

I feel like it depends on the specific MU. Many chars (my main included) like fast fallers for their combos.

But other chars (pre-patch Luigi and MK) love floaties.

 

[Locke 06]

It's really not that complicated. She simply beats Mega Man at all ranges and in all respects. There is NOTHING Mega Man has on her. There is no position in which Mega Man has a tangible advantage thanks to bouncing fish. There is no strategy or game plan to formulate. It's just that bad. Mega Man does have to approach because of needles, and he will get crushed when he does. It's not mid-level thinking, it's just choosing to die fighting rather than die a death of a thousand needles.

It is.

Mega man's BAir is a giant disjointed aerial with stupid good range, a great air-air.
Up tilt is f5 intangible and transcendent.
Dtilt is functionally disjointed and transcendent beating every non-disjointed ground button if the hitboxes come out during the same frame.
Usmash doesn't care about crossups, disjointed, and transcendent.
Uair is a transcendent projectile.

These are all tools Mega has. Because of their disjoint and/or transcendence, everyone is forced to respect these tools.

You can start from there. Or you can give up.

 

[TurboLink]

It is.

Mega man's BAir is a giant disjointed aerial with stupid good range, a great air-air.
Up tilt is f5 intangible and transcendent.
Dtilt is functionally disjointed and transcendent beating every non-disjointed ground button if the hitboxes come out during the same frame.
Usmash doesn't care about crossups, disjointed, and transcendent.
Uair is a transcendent projectile.

These are all tools Mega has. Because of their disjoint and/or transcendence, everyone is forced to respect these tools.

You can start from there. Or you can give up.

I never knew Mega Man had so many transcendent moves. This is interesting.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Do you guys think that being the first official Smash bros game that has semi-bi-weekly whatever patches (I've lost count) it's affected character meta in a way that someone would complain/ask for nerfs/buffs instead of looking at tools that their character inherently has and optimizing them?