Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Wintermelon43]

I feel sorry for anybody going up against Tristate, good lord.

I'm pulling for Texas here but I dunno if they can do it.

Can somebody give me a list of all the crews?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

They are listed in the video he quoted.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm gonna feel sorry for Tristate when they have to face Japan.

So much of this. That crew is made of Japan's best players. A whole country! Tristate is just a couple of states. People claiming this is an auto win for tristate have never seen the Japanese players. Rain is probably the weakest player in that crew, and he's better than half the people there.

 

[Das Koopa]

As good as SoCal looks I really do think Japan or Tristate will take it. The latter two are just insanely stacked.

I'm excited for MD/VA since we'll get to see some serious R.O.B and Lucas talent.

 

[SapphSabre777]

True - I didn't mean it that way either. You need to be able to pressure your opponent effectively. What I meant by "aggressive" is "running/rolling in all the time recklessly."

Also, the runspeed buffs help with some follow-ups and punishes Kirby couldn't get beforehand. At least, in my experience.

It should also be noted that the very slight KBG buffs also help a lot with allowing follow-ups, combos, and chases that were otherwise impossible. With certain fast-fallers at low %s, Kirby could do F-Throw -> F-Air and force a tech, the opponent would be too low to jump or attack, so you tech or you get knocked down, where Kirby could jab lock. Problem was, some fast-fallers had good horizontal aerial mobility, so the jab lock in of itself required bad DI in order to do so, plus the %s to do so launched them too far.

Fast forward into 1.1.3 and the buffs to his speed and his F-Air's KBG are small, but matter significantly. The window to cause a knockdown was decreased by around 4%-5%, which matters quite a bit considering less % usually means less launch distance, meaning less time to react to tech and more time for Kirby to chase and even jab lock. There's also that small speed boost which, after quite a bit of labbing for a personal local this weekend, likely would've allowed Kirby to be in jab lock range with D-Tilt if the KBG of F-Air was the same, since it allows him to now currently punish and chase things that he couldn't chase before, as you have said.

Will these buffs to Kirby help him? Perhaps, perhaps not. Ignoring the fact that Kirby's viability is heavily divisive (though the overall opinion is that he'll need secondaries) and his most noteworthy flaws still exist, not a lot of Kirbys that I've talked with have delved into the defensive positioning options (I still feel not a lot of Kirbys know WHEN it is better to duck than shield), as well as what is and is not chasable now thanks to these changes. Regardless, this is a case of a cluster of changes, big and small, that can accumulate to possibly something noteworthy. We'll just have to wait and see if any advancements to the character come up to the character that could possibly push him, though it won't put him on this thread's main scope of focus any time soon.

 

[Browny]

Is the G3 crew battle 3 stocks each?

It better be...

 

[LightLV]

By this logic, if every player in the top 32 played three totally unique characters each, but the game had 1000 characters, its balance would be poop--yet a game with only 1 character has 100% representation and is perfect." - Thinkaman, something something 2015.

...Uh, yeah? That is exactly what that infers. Why the hell would you have a game where you have less than a 10% chance of your chosen character being competitively viable? You pose the statement as if it's silly to expect a fighting game to have a high percentage of viability, but there are games, fairly recent games, which prove this wrong, so i don't know why the argument keeps being posed specifically to defend Smash 4 and its state of balance.

In a perfect world, being able to pick, practice and play any character in a tournament setting and succeed is what every game should be aiming for. That game is not Smash 4, is not anywhere close to being Smash 4, recent balance patches aren't giving it any significant strides, and if we're being honest, Smash 4 isn't anywhere closer to that goal than Melee was.

Although people loooveeee to bring up the Melee top-tiers in Smash4 balance discussions, as if Sheik ZSS and Diddy aren't doing the exact same thing.

 

[Mario766]

I think it's between Socal and Japan. Both are extremely stacked. Tristate is stacked, but not nearly as stacked as they could have been. Midwest/Florida are both super strong, but I don't think they compare to the top 3. If MD/VA does well that'll be upsets IMO. Mexico placing well would be shockers. Texas looks good, Southwest looks like the underdogs. Norcal who knows how well they will do.

 

[Browny]

Even if Melee is more balanced character wise, its still pretty damn predictable that every single major is going to have the following matches in top 8

fox vs fox
fox vs falco
fox vs marth
fox vs jigglypuff
fox vs sheik

If you're lucky, you might see fox vs pikachu. Thats about it though.

Who wants to bet we will have 8 different characters in top 8 at genesis 3

Probably from this lot

 

[LightLV]

Well, Smash 4 has alot of optimism regarding its characters. The list of players you expect to actually win though is likely much smaller.

If Armada is playing melee you could expect a peach somewhere lol

 

[Jams.]

The Wii U regional crew battle will have substitutes in addition to the five players listed in the trailer. This probably just makes Japan even more dominant though (Subs are Earth and Nietono). SoCal shouldn't be underestimated either IMO. Home field advantage is a real thing.

Full rules and rosters from Bear's Twitter. Looks like it'll be 3 stock! <3

 

[Solfiner]

Even if Melee is more balanced character wise, its still pretty damn predictable that every single major is going to have the following matches in top 8

fox vs fox
fox vs falco
fox vs marth
fox vs jigglypuff
fox vs sheik

If you're lucky, you might see fox vs pikachu. Thats about it though.

Who wants to bet we will have 8 different characters in top 8 at genesis 3

Probably from this lot

Probably even more (ZeRo's Diddy, Nairo's Dark Pit, Esam's Yoshi?)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why are we arguing which game has better balance?

 

[Y2Kay]

Why are we arguing which game has better balance?

So we can prove that this game's balance is not as fair as people claim.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Why are we arguing which game has better balance?

Because people in this community love to pit the subcommunities against each other in a childish pissing contest.

 

[Antonykun]

Methinks you have Roy and Ike switched.

Or at least Ike should be in the same spot as Roy then as Ike relies on grabs heavily. Assuming the Swordfighter/Brawler section means "Plays both a spacing game and a CQC game, frequently but not always with grabs playing a large role" MK, ZSS, and arguably Roy fit that description, not so sure about the other two...

Zelda also probably goes in the Gunner/Swordfighter area I would image. She's just... horrible at both aspects but that's how she's set up.

Curious to the reasoning as to Lucas in the middle but not Lucario/Greninja. I could see them falling in that section possibly.

I'll admit it was like 1 when i started working on this so i may have made some mistakes here and there, like forgetting Lucario has projectiles, so I can see Ike being a brawler/swordfighter
I think your definition of Brawler/Swordfighter covers everyone there but Lucario (have you seen the frog's Dash grab? o_o)

 

[DunnoBro]

So much of this. That crew is made of Japan's best players. A whole country! Tristate is just a couple of states. People claiming this is an auto win for tristate have never seen the Japanese players. Rain is probably the weakest player in that crew, and he's better than half the people there.

Even though it's a whole country, their overall competitive smash activity isn't actually higher than Tristates.

 

[Das Koopa]

Because people in this community love to pit the subcommunities against each other in a childish pissing contest.

I just think it's an interesting subject. Love both games/communities D:

If I say "I think Melee's more balanced by roster viability %" I'm not saying Smash 4's balance is bad or that I don't like Smash 4.

Speaking of, I should compare game-by-game and see how characters are on average from game-to-game. All I know for sure is that Pikachu has the best record (being viable in every game) and Zelda has the worst (being bottom 5 in every game she's been in. rip.)

 

[ligersandtigons]

so is MK Leo not going to genesis 3?

makes sense, he's only like 14 iirc

 

[Rikkhan]

so is MK Leo not going to genesis 3?

makes sense, he's only like 14 iirc

His visa got denied.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's a real pity Leo won't be there. With Abadango, Ito and him in attendance this could've been a big breakthrough for MK.

 

[Das Koopa]

A ranking was pretty easy for an Original 12 series average

By viability:

Spoiler

#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
#5:
#6:
#7:
#8:
#9:
#10:
#11:
#12:

Link has the worst luck in this series. 11th in 64, 18th in Melee,35th in Brawl, and probably Borderline/Low Tier in Smash 4.

 

[DblCrest]

What list is that for?

Also it's been a while since we've talked about Diddy. Are there any Diddy players still in the mix that don't use him as a secondary? He seems to have disappeared after he got nerfed.

 

[Das Koopa]

What list is that for?

Also it's been a while since we've talked about Diddy. Are there any Diddy players still in the mix that don't use him as a secondary? He seems to have disappeared after he got nerfed.

MVD's the big Diddy main now iirc. Zinoto also uses him solo.

The list is just for funsies. I'll probably do one for Melee/Brawl vets: It just gives an idea of how well characters have done as the series goes along.

 

[Sonicninja115]

What list is that for?

Also it's been a while since we've talked about Diddy. Are there any Diddy players still in the mix that don't use him as a secondary? He seems to have disappeared after he got nerfed.

There is also JJRockets (Chicago)
Dyr (Florida)
Jtails (Tristate) Though he might have gone to the dark side...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I can't read. Time to take a break.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

...Uh, yeah? That is exactly what that infers. Why the hell would you have a game where you have less than a 10% chance of your chosen character being competitively viable? You pose the statement as if it's silly to expect a fighting game to have a high percentage of viability, but there are games, fairly recent games, which prove this wrong, so i don't know why the argument keeps being posed specifically to defend Smash 4 and its state of balance.

In a perfect world, being able to pick, practice and play any character in a tournament setting and succeed is what every game should be aiming for. That game is not Smash 4, is not anywhere close to being Smash 4, recent balance patches aren't giving it any significant strides, and if we're being honest, Smash 4 isn't anywhere closer to that goal than Melee was.

Although people loooveeee to bring up the Melee top-tiers in Smash4 balance discussions, as if Sheik ZSS and Diddy aren't doing the exact same thing.

That's...not quite what he meant.

Consider a cast of 1000 characters. Assume they are all perfectly balanced.
Let the top 32 players of a national tournament each use 3 characters. Suppose there is no overlap in character usage.
32 * 3 = 96 characters used.
96 / 1000 = 9.6% roster representation.

Now, less than 10% of the roster being used sounds bad. But our first statement said the cast was perfectly balanced. Therefore, it's clear that looking at what percent of the roster is visible in top 32 placings (or top 64, or top 16, or whatever number floats your boat) of a given tournament cannot comprise the entirety of an argument for or against character balance by itself. Especially when the roster is large enough that it is literally impossible for top X placings to include more than a fraction of the cast.

 

[Ffamran]

Well I dun goofed. I meant keitaro. Didn't help that Falcos lasers are literally unusable now compared to melee.

Uh... Keitaro's been a Falco main since EVO 2015. Before that, he was a Diddy main who while successful, floundered around, tried using Link, Mii Brawler, and Falco after Apex 2015, but ended up settling on Falco after some main-searching and fans really wanting him to play Falco again since he was a Falco main in Brawl. Keitaro still has his Diddy, Link, and Mii Brawler, but he's focused on Falco primarily. Nairo, however, is just Nairo. He stomped people using Dr. Mario, Falco, Lucina, and Zelda. I wouldn't be surprised if one day he stomps someone using Wii Fit Trainer just because he can and not because Wii Fit Trainer is bad; it's the opposite since Wii Fit Trainer is damn good.

The list is just for funsies. I'll probably do one for Melee/Brawl vets: It just gives an idea of how well characters have done as the series goes along.

Easiest Melee to Smash 4 character would be Zelda. Seriously, you don't even need to think about it...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Other "bad" characters like Link, Ganondorf, Samus, and more had some kind of hope in some games like Link, Ganondorf, and Samus were considered mid-tier-ish in Melee before dropping off in Brawl and retaining some hope of being low-mid in Smash 4. Zelda? Bad in all games. It's actually surprising since she's just not fun nor rewarding to play with at all; Zelda's clunky and very punishable while requiring a ton of precision for moves that in any mode, would be stressful and difficult to land. Oh, and if you flub them? You're not Marth or Roy; you're getting pitiful hits that would make a staled Sheik look like a killer. Compare this to Triple D who's humorous to play as, Kirby who's this cute puffball, or Ganondorf where hits count and they're freaking hilarious when you can boot someone from one end to the other end like you were playing tennis. I mean, why does this character even exist other than to fill a slot as Princess Zelda? Pichu is more competent than her and Pichu's the joke character. And "helpless because the plot demands it" Peach has always been or near high-tier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uh... Keitaro's been a Falco main since EVO 2015. Before that, he was a Diddy main who while successful, floundered around, tried using Link, Mii Brawler, and Falco after Apex 2015, but ended up settling on Falco after some main-searching and fans really wanting him to play Falco again since he was a Falco main in Brawl. Keitaro still has his Diddy, Link, and Mii Brawler, but he's focused on Falco primarily. Nairo, however, is just Nairo. He stomped people using Dr. Mario, Falco, Lucina, and Zelda. I wouldn't be surprised if one day he stomps someone using Wii Fit Trainer just because he can and not because Wii Fit Trainer is bad; it's the opposite since Wii Fit Trainer is damn good.


Easiest Melee to Smash 4 character would be Zelda. Seriously, you don't even need to think about it...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Other "bad" characters like Link, Ganondorf, Samus, and more had some kind of hope in some games like Link, Ganondorf, and Samus were considered mid-tier-ish in Melee before dropping off in Brawl and retaining some hope of being low-mid in Smash 4. Zelda? Bad in all games. It's actually surprising since she's just not fun nor rewarding to play with at all; Zelda's clunky and very punishable while requiring a ton of precision for moves that in any mode, would be stressful and difficult to land. Oh, and if you flub them? You're not Marth or Roy; you're getting pitiful hits that would make a staled Sheik look like a killer. Compare this to Triple D who's humorous to play as, Kirby who's this cute puffball, or Ganondorf where hits count and they're freaking hilarious when you can boot someone from one end to the other end like you were playing tennis.

It kind of makes you stop and think: What would it take to make Zelda good? I'm kind of stumped, honestly, beyond overtuning her damage numbers to horrific levels, and even that would just be a bandaid fix.

As far as I can tell, her core design is focused around strong magic-based hits, with sweetspot requirements sprinkled liberally throughout for good measure. (Seriously, every aerial bar nair has one, plus Din's Fire and I think ftilt?) This made a modicum of sense when she and Sheik still shared a CSS slot, since Sheik was conceptualized as the damage dealer while Zelda was the finisher, but even then it never really functioned as intended since Sheik's core design just works better even if her raw damage per hit isn't that hot. Never mind that Melee Sheik had tons of power anyway. But now that Zelda's a completely separate character, she's got tons of finishers (that require large amounts of precision to land) but nothing to force people into a position to get hit by these finishers.

As far as I can tell, you only need to "respect" Zelda insofar as you can't just sit there and let her smack you in the face. But as long as you space yourself properly I'm not sure what she can really do to make you sweat.

 

[LancerStaff]

Stick her with Sheik again and make it so Sheik can't kill below 200% or something crazy. If you're going to have a character with a transformation it should be necessary... Which is why Brawl Samus and Pokemon Trainer worked the way they did.

Either that or Zelda needs Bouncing Fish or something.

 

[Das Koopa]

Umm wrong. The tier list now is like this

???

I'm ranking as an average across all four games (since those 12 have been in all 4), not specifically 64.

 

[Y2Kay]

His visa got denied.

Why didn't the visa thing get worked out?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

???

I'm ranking as an average across all four games (since those 12 have been in all 4), not specifically 64.

Sorry dude, I missed that.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Or a better way to force approaches, she can't really approach at all, nor really force approaches herself...so it's kinda tough(I'm more of an aggressive player myself though)
Like she does have some things going for her and some of her moves aren't actually bad, but most of them compared to others....well yea, you kinda get it.

She's mainly suppose to punish you with her strong attacks and take advantage of your mistakes, but her poor frame data and again, needed to be precise on a good deal of her moves makes this even tough sometimes.
What adds insult to injury is that a good amount of characters got buffed last patch while she essentially got nothing......

But don't try and immediately sell her out though, again she has things going for her, and she isn't easy to play, but I think she is fun anyways.

If they can adjust her Fair/Bair give her an entirely new side B, give DownB less lag, make ariels have overall less landing lag and a couple other tiny changes and that enough would greatly help.

Though if you guys want any sort of actual Zelda notes/knowledge, Zylach(don't wanna bother him just in case, so won't tag him) and a couple others too, have a ton they. An tell you, far far better then me, if I even did somewhat okayish at that.

 

[SaltyKracka]

It actually wouldn't be terribly difficult to give Zelda a real boost in power.

The problem is that it would involve things like Din's Fire having multiple sustained hitboxes that do extra shield damage and less end lag than it currently has, or Dtilt always tripping, or making Nair cancelable into Specials.

You know, blatant things.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

IDin's Fail

Sadly, I had to fix it for ya :/

 

[S_B]

Look, I'm just saying that a character being one of the best isn't the only reason to take them to a tournament even at a high level. By that logic every top player would do better if they just played sheik but I don't think that's true. The way they play the game might just suit other characters better.

That's fair. Maybe Nairo likes skin tight outfits and ZSS just happens to be one of the best characters in the game, right?

Just as long as you're not saying that ZSS wouldn't be top tier without Nairo in the face of all the other amazing ZSSes out there.

(changing subjects)

Also, can we talk about the Bowz?

His matchup MAY have gotten better, or maybe it's just that players are still adapting to how to handle the change:

Here's a Bowser v. Sheik matchup in a Japanese tournament:

And here's Cassius winning The Savage Land's GF against John Numbers (who later went on to win Nebulous Prime 21):

And here's Cassius fighting Dill's Sheik in Nebulous Prime:

Early results for the shell shock look quite promising. Bowser can quickly turn around a game now and considering that the only quick move he has that can reasonably be landed against characters like Sheik is grab, it's good that they baked his kill confirm into his grab.

Of course, it may just be that opponents haven't fully adapted to this yet, and Bowser does still have all of his old weaknesses intact. However, we're at least seeing glimmers of hope whereas there were none before.

 

[Jaguar360]

It kind of makes you stop and think: What would it take to make Zelda good? I'm kind of stumped, honestly, beyond overtuning her damage numbers to horrific levels, and even that would just be a bandaid fix.

As far as I can tell, her core design is focused around strong magic-based hits, with sweetspot requirements sprinkled liberally throughout for good measure. (Seriously, every aerial bar nair has one, plus Din's Fire and I think ftilt?) This made a modicum of sense when she and Sheik still shared a CSS slot, since Sheik was conceptualized as the damage dealer while Zelda was the finisher, but even then it never really functioned as intended since Sheik's core design just works better even if her raw damage per hit isn't that hot. Never mind that Melee Sheik had tons of power anyway. But now that Zelda's a completely separate character, she's got tons of finishers (that require large amounts of precision to land) but nothing to force people into a position to get hit by these finishers.

As far as I can tell, you only need to "respect" Zelda insofar as you can't just sit there and let her smack you in the face. But as long as you space yourself properly I'm not sure what she can really do to make you sweat.

Super Smash Flash 2 managed to make Zelda high tier. Pretty much a buffed Brawl Zelda. Din's Fire activates and travels more quickly and doesn't go into freefall, Lighting Kicks are pretty much like Melee, U-air is a bit quicker, D-smash is stronger and her U-throw and D-throw can combo into Kicks (as well as U-air in U-throw's case). That's mostly it. All Zelda really needs is simple adjustments to Din's Fire and Lightning Kicks to become a threat.

 

[Ffamran]

It kind of makes you stop and think: What would it take to make Zelda good? I'm kind of stumped, honestly, beyond overtuning her damage numbers to horrific levels, and even that would just be a bandaid fix.

A complete goddessdamned overhaul. Other characters like... everyone else only need tweaks and they're much better or better functioning. Tweaking Ike's hitboxes and making it so his dash attack wasn't just a sad move let him function and perform better, tweaks to Marth gave him access to a sort of frame trap from jab 1, gave him a better functioning jab, and made it more rewarding to space - his tipper Nair does the most damage? in the game -, and Mewtwo gaining much higher ground speed solidifies his design as a glass cannon. Bowser and DK's throw changes basically say that if you get grabbed by these monsters, you will die and really, getting pinned down and mauled by giant beasts should really kill you instead of just being a flesh wound. Diddy and Greninja's changes made them more "healthier" characters while retaining their strong performance. Hell, there are characters with tried and true designs like Captain Falcon, Fox, Luigi, and Mario who don't need changes outside of balancing ones like Fox's Melee Uair and Brawl Up Smash's recovery frames would be overkill and Luigi's D-throw didn't need to do everything when he has everything.

As far as I can tell, her core design is focused around strong magic-based hits, with sweetspot requirements sprinkled liberally throughout for good measure. (Seriously, every aerial bar nair has one, plus Din's Fire and I think ftilt?) This made a modicum of sense when she and Sheik still shared a CSS slot, since Sheik was conceptualized as the damage dealer while Zelda was the finisher, but even then it never really functioned as intended since Sheik's core design just works better even if her raw damage per hit isn't that hot. Never mind that Melee Sheik had tons of power anyway. But now that Zelda's a completely separate character, she's got tons of finishers (that require large amounts of precision to land) but nothing to force people into a position to get hit by these finishers.

As far as I can tell, you only need to "respect" Zelda insofar as you can't just sit there and let her smack you in the face. But as long as you space yourself properly I'm not sure what she can really do to make you sweat.

Zelda seems to be a mage-archetype character. In RPGs, that's someone who's squishy, fights at range, and potentially can do a crapton of damage... In a fighting game, that's kind of what a zoner should be doing. Characters that come to mind? Rose from Street Fighter, Athena from The King of Fighters, and Terra from Dissidia. In Smash? Of the "magical archetypes" in Smash, Lucas, Mewtwo, Ness, Palutena - With customs, she'll be anything you want, baby. -, Peach, Robin, Rosalina - the literal Blue Mage of Smash -, and hell, Wii Fit Trainer - PRAISE THE SUN. Notice how Zelda isn't on the list; Zelda fails at zoning. If you go with glass cannon mages, then Zelda is beat by everyone when she has less reliable options compared to Mewtwo, Ness, and Rosalina. Slow, but strong mages? Robin and that's mostly from her slow ground movement since Robin beats Zelda in power and air acceleration while losing by 0.04 in air speed, Robin's 1.00 to Zelda's 1.04. All-around? Zelda loses to Lucas, Peach, and Wii Fit Trainer who are more versatile than her. That leaves Palutena who kind of fits the bill as versatile or rather, glass cannon with customs, and by default, is better at defensive play when she's got 2 invincible moves, dash attack and Bair, aerials that are practical and kill more reliably, and her tilts scream wall people out with their recoilless nature.

Zelda's too slow, too fragile, and too... outdone by other characters. She seems to be the slow, but strong mage, but Robin does that so much better and safer. As a wall, she's not exactly a good one when her walling moves are pretty pathetic outside of Nayru's Love and that's a close-ranged move. The fact she's slower than Palutena makes it much worse when Pally can run and play defensively. Is she strong? Yeah, but her setups aren't really reliable compared to the others. If they were, she'd be on Bowser and DK's level of ludicrousness.

This is weird, but I think Zelda needs the Mario and by extension, the Sheik treatment; Zelda needs to be weaker, but faster. Instead of being the slow, but strong (and fragile) mage, I think Zelda should be a Jacqueline of all trades. Mario from Brawl to Smash 4 became faster moving, but weaker hitting turning him from sort of a slugger? to a combo machine. He lost raw kill tools in return for combo tools. How would this work for Zelda? First off, we need to tear her dress since she freaking wears pants... That alone would take her running speed from 1.3 to 1.6 at least when you consider she is much faster when wearing pants and not a restricting dress. Hello, Sheik. The rest just comes from weakening her, but also speeding up her. The major problem with this is that this would radically change her identity. Mario and even Falco who suffers identity crises per game never had a radical change like this.

 

[RonNewcomb]

It actually wouldn't be terribly difficult to give Zelda a real boost in power.

The problem is that it would involve things like Din's Fire having multiple sustained hitboxes that do extra shield damage and less end lag than it currently has, or Dtilt always tripping, or making Nair cancelable into Specials.

You know, blatant things.

Eh, just give her Wario's airspeed & acceleration. Safe frequent poking with her existing aerials gives her some bnb until she can use her bigger moves.