Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Buffing Zelda to be usable without breaking her playing style.

idk, I think you could probably get her to mid without breaking her playing style. No helplessness + faster cool down on Side B makes both her recovery a bit better, and lets her potentially actually force some approaches. And hey, being able to snipe recoveries better or force them to be more predictable is always good.

Less cooldown on Neutral B means she can play defensively better.

Holding the charge on Down B improves her edgeguarding and recovery a bit.

Improved Jab and Grab both again, let her play defensively better. Faster start up for both.

With those changes we improve parts of her game that she already has (defensive play style, on stage edgeguarding with Side B and Down B, pretty good recovery options) without touching more key parts of her game (precision aerials as punishes).

I mean just think about it: if she could hold the charge on her Down B, any body trying to use an even remotely laggy projectile at mid range against her would get slapped by a Knight. Characters like Ike, Cloud, Little Mac, Falcon would almost never recover if they have to go low. Add in the other changes, and many characters would have a hard time forcing Zelda to approach, while she could force them. Which in turn plays to the strengths of her aerials and to some extent her smashes. She'd have a very strong defensive game that forces approaches, while still being terrible if she ever had to approach or if somebody could completely ignore her defensive game (like Sonic).

That's pretty viable. Or at least perfectly usable.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Losing Ray is a big blow.

Guy is a literal genius who stole the win from FL by his hands alone.

I honestly think that Socal is stronger than Tristate. Tristate has Nairo and Dabuz, yes

But Socal has Zero, Larry and Void. Tristate's gonna need another Nakat destruction from EVO, which I honestly don't see happening. Vinnie/DKWill as subs does round out Tristate's line-up though.

Ray? Who is he? Is he RayNoire?

 

[Y2Kay]

You know what would have been awesome? If MDVA brought puppeh on their crew so he and MK Leo could duke it out!

 

[outfoxd]

Ray? Who is he? Is he RayNoire?

Rayquaza. Rosalina that beat Anti on the way top top 8 at Big House 5

 

[Teshie U]

Din's Fire just needs the freedom of PK freeze. That thing blows up pretty much immediately after you let go and its low enough on lag to be safe on block right next to your opponent.

She shouldn't be helpless after either.

Im pretty sure the Knight would be broken if you could hold the charge. Its a frame 1 release wall/projectile. It should just have less lag so she can actually attack with it and cover options.

 

[Kofu]

For Bowser Jr I would argue that being too aggressive bites him in the butt and he does his best when he's baiting reactions. For example, the koopa kart isn't anywhere as reliable as Sonic's spin dash and, while it can lead to nice set ups, it can also be punished pretty hard too. I'd argue that Bowser Jr suffers from a similar core problem as Jigglypuff in that being aggressive can backfire way too easily. His approach options are pretty awful too which multiples this problem even more.

I agree that he's a baiting sort of character but not a defensive one. A defensive character, in my mind, pressures the opponent to approach in some way and is good at keeping them away. Bowser Jr. Is decent at keeping people away but can't force approaches and instead has to rely on fake outs and traps to force the opponent into acting at which point he goes in and does his thing.

Defensive characters aren't allowed to have combos/a good combo game?

This was poorly worded on my part; I meant that he wants to get close to the opponent and that he has some seriously damaging combos which encourage him to go in whenever possible. Defensive characters tend to be more opportunistic when going for combos and instead tend to opt for continually swatting the opponent away.

Could just be my opinion though.

 

[C0rvus]

Who would you guys say are the three best defensive characters in the game? I'd go with:

- multiple projectiles, long range aerials, multiple shield options, several attacks that double as reliable shield options, a kill throw, a good set up throw, two close range tilts that can kill, fast jab, fast ftilt, several decent shield break options, several trumps, fantastic ledge stall options, fantastic edge guard options

- a good keep away projectile, a zair, fast tilts, fast jab, good set up throw, technically two kill throws, good ledge stalling options, a reflector, an absorb option

- good keep away projectiles, a zair, good set ups out of bomb/boomerang knock back, good set up throw, a kill throw, bombs are multifunctional, good jab, ftilt, and utilt

I would say are in the running. also has good reason to play keepaway.

Also whoever said is wrong. Defensive Pac Man gets nowhere. All of his tools have clear counterplay, so he's better off setting traps and pressuring. His up b out of shield is very very good though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I agree that he's a baiting sort of character but not a defensive one. A defensive character, in my mind, pressures the opponent to approach in some way and is good at keeping them away. Bowser Jr. Is decent at keeping people away but can't force approaches and instead has to rely on fake outs and traps to force the opponent into acting at which point he goes in and does his thing.


This was poorly worded on my part; I meant that he wants to get close to the opponent and that he has some seriously damaging combos which encourage him to go in whenever possible. Defensive characters tend to be more opportunistic when going for combos and instead tend to opt for continually swatting the opponent away.

Could just be my opinion though.

Adding on to the second part. Mewtwo tends to wait for combos. His throws don't combo, only his tilts. Thus, Mewtwo has to do his thing, and wait for a punish or read to unload a 50% combo. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Din's Fire just needs the freedom of PK freeze. That thing blows up pretty much immediately after you let go and its low enough on lag to be safe on block right next to your opponent.

She shouldn't be helpless after either.

Im pretty sure the Knight would be broken if you could hold the charge. Its a frame 1 release wall/projectile. It should just have less lag so she can actually attack with it and cover options.

I get that the Phantom is a frame 1 release from her charging pose, but if she was able to store it, surely she'd have to go through the same animation again in order to send it out? I don't think anyone's asking for a frame 1 meatshield anyway.

Bold idea: What if the Phantom didn't attack right away, but just stood there and only swung its sword if someone came close by?

She does have a whole lot of problems no matter how you slice it though. She just doesn't...flow all that well, I think. I'm struggling to define it in objective terms instead of feels, but even though I generally enjoy messing around with her I still end up floundering half the time.

Actually, real talk for a moment, does current not-fantasy-land Zelda actually win any matchups against anyone?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Din's Fire just needs the freedom of PK freeze. That thing blows up pretty much immediately after you let go and its low enough on lag to be safe on block right next to your opponent.

She shouldn't be helpless after either.

Im pretty sure the Knight would be broken if you could hold the charge. Its a frame 1 release wall/projectile. It should just have less lag so she can actually attack with it and cover options.

I don't think it would be broken. At the end of the day if you haven't committed to anything you can shield the attack.

I think. Admittedly haven't exactly played against a lot of Zeldas, lol. And she would still be locked in the same animation/lag time as she is now upon release. It would be a strong option but I don't think it would be broken. Certainly not spammable either, not like she's would have freedom to act out of the charge on the Limit Break level.

I would fear Zelda in doubles though. She's already pretty good there. Last tournament I went to there was actually a double Zelda team that got pretty far. If you got off stage while they were on stage, and they got their alternating Din Fires in order, you were dead. You simply couldn't dodge one without getting hit by the other during your recovery frames. And then they just... juggled you to death.

It was actually pretty amusing to watch.

 

[Wintropy]

I think of a defensive character as a character that wants to play on reaction and punish mistakes instead of making the approach and playing aggressively. They may not have the tools to adequately play the rushdown game, or they may just have an easier time baiting the approach and responding on their own terms. So while Junior can play defensively, the reward he gets for combos is better than what he gets from sitting and waiting for an opening.

Palutena is a good example of a defensive character, albeit one that's still inherently limited in what she can do: she doesn't have the speed or finesse to go for a rushdown assault and she gets decent reward for baiting grabs, so she wants to poke and provoke until she gets an opportunity to punish. This would be fine, if her punishes were in any way reliable and were able to kill consistently. Custom Pally has no problem playing aggressively, Super Speed and Lightweight being the instant-approach wonder-tools they are, but default is a character that has to bait and punishes with punishes that seldom manage to hit when they're supposed to. Not a great combination by any means.

Pit can play defensively too, and I'd nearly say he's better when playing defensively, but he doesn't really rely on bait-punish if other options are more viable or if he can afford to be more aggressive. He has the tools (good startup data, autocancels, disjoints) and combo potential to be aggressive if the opponent can't out-aggro him in turn. Edgeguarding is good too, which helps. Typical Pit rules apply: go for what's best in context.

If we're talking best character with a primarily defensive gameplan, though, I think Villager is up there for sure. A good Villager will shut down any attempts you make to approach, and Timber is nearly a literal wall of pain.

I don't think it would be broken. At the end of the day if you haven't committed to anything you can shield the attack.

I think. Admittedly haven't exactly played against a lot of Zeldas, lol. And she would still be locked in the same animation/lag time as she is now upon release. It would be a strong option but I don't think it would be broken. Certainly not spammable either, not like she's would have freedom to act out of the charge on the Limit Break level.

Nah, I agree, I don't think it'd be broken. It'd be a great edgeguarding tool and kill option out of a read, and it'd be good at breaking shields if they've been worn down by the time it connects, but it wouldn't be overtuning her. At the end of the day, she's supposed to be able to punish you at mid-range with slow and strong magic attacks. Phantom would fit that description nicely. She'd actually have a kill / punish option with good range that doesn't massively inconvenience her for using it.

That and reflectors would still eat it up. No change there~

 

[J-Lit]

I'd definitely agree with pit being a great defensive character. With Overall quick frame data on most of his grounded attacks plus great options like nair and upsmash to cover arial approaches, he can rely a lot on good reaction time to punish aggressive players. Full hop arrows across the stage generally wins or goes even in projectile wars; while not being that hard to deal with by shielding it still forces an eventual approach. In midrange, all of his SHACs can be used as bait and punish along with d-smash's surprisingly low endlag.

The best defensive game would probably have to go to shiek or villager though.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think of a defensive character as a character that wants to play on reaction and punish mistakes instead of making the approach and playing aggressively. They may not have the tools to adequately play the rushdown game, or they may just have an easier time baiting the approach and responding on their own terms. So while Junior can play defensively, the reward he gets for combos is better than what he gets from sitting and waiting for an opening.

Palutena is a good example of a defensive character, albeit one that's still inherently limited in what she can do: she doesn't have the speed or finesse to go for a rushdown assault and she gets decent reward for baiting grabs, so she wants to poke and provoke until she gets an opportunity to punish. This would be fine, if her punishes were in any way reliable and were able to kill consistently. Custom Pally has no problem playing aggressively, Super Speed and Lightweight being the instant-approach wonder-tools they are, but default is a character that has to bait and punishes with punishes that seldom manage to hit when they're supposed to. Not a great combination by any means.

Pit can play defensively too, and I'd nearly say he's better when playing defensively, but he doesn't really rely on bait-punish if other options are more viable or if he can afford to be more aggressive. He has the tools (good startup data, autocancels, disjoints) and combo potential to be aggressive if the opponent can't out-aggro him in turn. Edgeguarding is good too, which helps. Typical Pit rules apply: go for what's best in context.

If we're talking best character with a primarily defensive gameplan, though, I think Villager is up there for sure. A good Villager will shut down any attempts you make to approach, and Timber is nearly a literal wall of pain.



Nah, I agree, I don't think it'd be broken. It'd be a great edgeguarding tool and kill option out of a read, and it'd be good at breaking shields if they've been worn down by the time it connects, but it wouldn't be overtuning her. At the end of the day, she's supposed to be able to punish you at mid-range with slow and strong magic attacks. Phantom would fit that description nicely. She'd actually have a kill / punish option with good range that doesn't massively inconvenience her for using it.

That and reflectors would still eat it up. No change there~

I've found with personal experience that I do better when I play patient as pit. Spacing out opponents with f tilt and down tilt, and then getting a grab once the oppurtunity presents itself.

But watching Nairo's Dark Pit sure makes me want try playing more aggro though.

 

[Mario766]

Would being able to release whenever you want really be that broken. There's examples of things like that happening for other characters that didn't break the character.

I mean, we have Cloud who has a basically unpunishable charge that gives him a speed boost, bonuses to his moves and unlocks a kill move that kills everyone at ~60, all on a charge system that fills up for damage taken, damage given and using a zero-vulnerability charge move that can be cancellable into either nothing, any attack he wants, or shield with little to no downtime.

 

[Y2Kay]

Would being able to release whenever you want really be that broken. There's examples of things like that happening for other characters that didn't break the character.

I mean, we have Cloud who has a basically unpunishable charge that gives him a speed boost, bonuses to his moves and unlocks a kill move that kills everyone at ~60, all on a charge system that fills up for damage taken, damage given and using a zero-vulnerability charge move that can be cancellable into either nothing, any attack he wants, or shield with little to no downtime.

not to mention how much better cloud is as a character in general

 

[PK Gaming]

Who would you guys say are the three best defensive characters in the game? I'd go with:

- multiple projectiles, long range aerials, multiple shield options, several attacks that double as reliable shield options, a kill throw, a good set up throw, two close range tilts that can kill, fast jab, fast ftilt, several decent shield break options, several trumps, fantastic ledge stall options, fantastic edge guard options

- a good keep away projectile, a zair, fast tilts, fast jab, good set up throw, technically two kill throws, good ledge stalling options, a reflector, an absorb option

- good keep away projectiles, a zair, good set ups out of bomb/boomerang knock back, good set up throw, a kill throw, bombs are multifunctional, good jab, ftilt, and utilt

Lucas's defense isn't that good

The fast characters can get by it and he doesn't have the normals to get them off of him

I'd argue Sheik is up there by virtue of frame data + needles

 

[Fatmanonice]

As Wintropy said, Palutena is a defensive character that almost works. She probably has the best set up throw of the low tiers and her jab would be one of the best in the game if so many of her moves weren't so laggy. Jab to grab is great but anything else is pretty much a hard read. If fsmash and usmash had less start up, they'd be reliable kill options out of jab and ftilt/dtilt would be good at keep away if they weren't so laggy. Auto-reticle would be much more reliable if it weren't so slow either. Utilt is too slow. Dsmash is too slow. Slow, slow, slow, slow... Dedede has a lot of the same issues too but he has even worse mobility so his defenses can be torn down even faster. Dedede isn't worse though because 1. he's lovably fat 2. it's a lot easier for him to get surprise early kills and shield breaks and 3. he generally has a better reach.

 

[Y2Kay]

Are we talking defensive in terms of just forcing approaches? Greninja is pretty good at that I guess

 

[Mario766]

not to mention how much better cloud is as a character in general

Well I was comparing moves in a vacuum because that was a given.

 

[williamsga555]

Defensive prowess depends on what exactly we mean by that. If we consider "run away" to be a defensive measure, then Sonic and Wario are probably tops in that.

If we focus on OOS play, it's probably Zard and Doc.

Longevity of stocks is probably Dedede and DK.

Wall-out is likely Villager and Rosa.

And so on and so forth.

I think the characters most clearly built to be defensive are likely Dedede, Zard, and Palutena in no particular order. The first two have amazing longevity, good reach, and (in Zard's case) a potent OOS game. Palutena's default set seems built around defensive poking just by how most of her ground moves and specials work.

This, however, doesn't mean those three are the best at defense, mind, but they seem to be the most obviously tuned toward it to me. Most potent defense in my mind is probably Villager, all things considered, but Iunno.

 

[Ffamran]

Zelda isn't even true to her game. Both her and Ganondorf are supposed to have swords and some really cool moves. Not as bad as Captain Gandondorf but like it has been said, she IS Sheik. ZELDA was trained by a Sheikah.

She is actually true to her game. Zelda never had a weapon until Wind Waker and that's with a bow which would have been pretty damn interesting to see a magical archer like that. I mean, we already have a Legolas-like fighter with the Pits. After that, she had a plot-only rapier that was only used in combat when she was puppeteered by Ganondorf and then she had a harp in Skyward Sword which was used by, you guessed it! Sheik in Hyrule Warriors. Hyrule Warriors expanded on the idea that Zelda was competent with a rapier, could use a baton like a magical wand, and later added rods which also are mage-y. If we archetyped Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda, Link would be the thief, the guile hero who uses items, exploits weak points, and would prefer to not use brute force to win; Ganondorf would be the fighter or magic knight who overwhelms his opponents, endures hits, and if capable like Cecil Harvey, some rudimentary magic which in Ganondorf's case, is more like Cecil's Dark Knight magic where it's just pure offense; and finally, Zelda's the mage.

I won't go into Ganondorf since you can debate whether or not he's supposed to be a warlock like in pre-Wind Waker where he mostly used magic and sometimes weapons if you got too close or a spellsword post-Wind Waker where he used weapons and magic. In Smash's case? He leans more towards a warlock. Yes, a warlock, but more of an Eastern or Wuxia one where his magic is infused with his martial arts. Do people like that? Debatable. Would people prefer Ganondorf as a spellsword? Debatable, but it leans towards yes more than evil, kung fu sage, master of the Purple Flames Fist Ganondorf.

Bigger hitboxes on magic-based moves. These things should be difficult to avoid if caught in the wrong situation. For example, Zelda's forward tilt is actually friggin' powerful, and kills pretty damn early for a forward tilt. However, it has no range. If it could work like Ganondorf's own f-tilt, as a kill move that the opponent has to be extremely wary of at high percents, it would serve more of a purpose.

It's not the range that's a problem; it's the speed. Ike and Zelda's Ftilt are almost the same in hit speed; Ike's is frame 13 while Zelda's is 12. Both have the same active frames of 2. Difference besides range? Ike's always does a consistent 12.5%, 30 base, and 97 growth while Zelda's has sour-spots that do 10%, a sweet-spot that does 12%, and all hitboxes do 50 base, and 88 growth. Both Ftilts launch at an angle of 361, both are disjointed with Zelda's being transcendent, and both will kill at similar percents, but which do you think is safer? Ike's massive sword or Zelda's dinky little arm? Zelda's Ftilt could be given an Ike Ftilt treatment where it no longer has sweet-spots and sour-spots, but is faster - I think Ike's used to be frame 14? - and more consistent. So, Zelda's Ftilt could be frame 10 or 11 and only does 11(.5)%. Right now, it's an okay move that does work as a strong spacing move, but Zelda could always jab instead and suffer much less recovery frames, jab is frame 11 and takes 8 frame to recover to Ftilt's 26 which is pretty normal for a tilt - 1 less than Ganondorf's Ftilt.

Less recovery on Smash Attacks and perhaps other moves. Basically give her some more Meta Knight F-smash type attacks. This doesn't mean that she's a speedster now, but it gives her stuff to throw out in neutral without being too scared of retaliation.

Note: my recovery spreadsheet is off by a frame or so for all characters... I think, so it'll need to be fixed. Still, it's around the ballpark, so...

Her Smashes have average recovery... Jab, Utilt, and Dtilt on the other hand have fast recovery at 8, 11, and 13 respectively. There's a reason why Zelda players just jab in place or move and jab. It's also why she can jab to jab. That being said, Zelda with say, 17 frames - same as Meta Knight's Side Smash - as opposed to 25 frames wouldn't do much harm... Zelda players already Side Smash bait because of the 5 active frames its out and because it's transcendent. Yeah, a lot of Zelda's moves are transcendent. From her frame data thread, jab, dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt, Up Smash - last hit is not for some reason -, Side Smash, Nair, Uair, and the sweet-spot of Fair, Bair, and Dair are all transcendent.

Now, her landing lag on the other hand is... really bad. The lowest is 18 on Dair - used to be 21. Highest? 25 on Fair followed by 23 on Bair and 19 on Nair and Uair - used to be 22 for Uair. Granted, Nair has a good auto-cancel window of before 4 and after 38 which is better than Falco's Nair which was stolen from Zelda and Zelda never got any compensation like... 14 frames of landing lag instead of 19. Oh, wait, 1.0.8 changed her landing lag of Nair from 22 to 19... Why was it 22? Nair is good, but it's not some kind of magical, broken kill move of doom that ironically, Sheik doesn't care about when she's got slaps. Her Dair also has a good auto-cancel window of before 4 and after 40. Everything else? Uair before 5 and after 55, Fair before 4 and after 50, and Bair before 3 and after 52. Uair is the only one I don't get since Fair and Bair would be ridiculous if they had some semblance of a good auto-cancel. It's funny since Ike swinging his sword like a helicopter takes 4 less landing frames and has a better after auto-cancel of before 51. Ike doesn't use Uair close to the ground and neither does Zelda, but Ike's get a better "cushion" in case he does and he can when it has better horizontal range. Zelda? Nooooope.

Zelda's hop is 41 frames and jump is 62 frames. Like most characters, most or all of her aerials can auto-cancel from a jump. From a hop. Only Nair and Dair can, but you need to be frame perfect with Dair. Let's go back to Ike because of his Uair comparison thing and not because he's anything similar to her; Ike's hop is 37 frames and jump is 52 frames. Going off of that, Ike can auto-cancel all of his aerials except for Nair? Weird... It's got an after of 64, but whatever, 14 landing frames. From a hop? Fair and Bair. Fair and Bair are among Ike's greatest tools and setting up Fair from an U-throw or a D-throw? Ike doesn't need to auto-cancel it! But it's the safety of it all and let's say Ike fails to auto-cancel it; Ike will take 18 frames of landing lag and if he hits, a consistent 12%. With Bair he'll take 19 frames of landing lag and deal 14%. Zelda? If Zelda manages to hit with Fair or Bair, she better hopes she sweet-spots to do 20% and be somewhat of a threat on-shield or only do 4% and lay their questioning her life. 23 to 25 frames of landing lag is one dead Zelda. Needing to sweet-spot it is even worse when Ike can just Bair anywhere and still launch you. Falco's even more notorious where being behind him for no reason at all means a frame 4, 13%, 130 growth Bair will kill. And all Falco needs to do is input a Bair. Zelda needs to input a Bair and drift out enough so her foot hits and everyone knows - Hi, Sheik - that Zelda's got long limbs.

Sour-spotting her Fair and Bair isn't like sour-spotting Marth, Roy, or even Samus's Fair (excludes Sammy) and Bair (includes Sammy). Their sour-spots are strong enough where they're hitting you out and not doinig a weird leg slap that will only incentivize you to slap Zelda back. It's safety, versatile, and even range that Zelda lacks. Her Nair, Uair, and Dair are good moves, but they're not enough when you try to do something in the air. Nair isn't a horizontal move; it's a central move. Uair and Dair are vertical moves and unless you're Cloud or even Falco and Ryu who either have a giant disjoint or a more angled hitbox, you're not going to be able use Dair to poke or approach. Fair and Bair both being sweet-spot moves with extremely weak, short-living sour-spots makes it much worse when she doesn't really have a horizontal aerial tool to work with. Can she land them? Yeah, but it's going to be hella difficult when people know that's all she has and if she fails them, it's not like Marth and Roy who can still wall you out and don't have 1 active frame to work with for their sweet-spots. Captain Falcon's Fair which also has 1 active frame sweet-spot has a sour-spot that stays out for 16 frames to Zelda's 4 for Fair and 3 for Bair. If it weren't for the small hitbox and high startup of 14, Captain Falcon's Fair could actually be used like a sex kick. The high landing lag doesn't help either. Worse case scenario for Marth and Roy is Marth's going to take 17 frames from Bair or 16 from Fair if he fails to auto-cancel them which is kind of stupid when he 4 frames of leeway to auto-cancel Bair from a hop and is Roy's going to take 19 frames with Bair or 15 with Fair if he decides to use them over Nair which takes 13. Roy can't auto-cancel any of his aerial from a hop apparently, they're over by 2 at the lowest, but he can auto-cancel everything but Dair - this move... - from a jump and Roy's a low jumper and fast faller, so... yeah... Even then, who's got the better landing lag and auto-cancel windows? Definitely not Zelda. Who's got the more versatile aerials? If you answered Sheik aka Fake Zelda, then you're correct!

Stronger kill throw(s). If psychics can have cool kill throws, why not a magician? I do believe one of her throws (back? forward?) is decently potent, but if she had a scarier one it could work well with the fact that opponents are encouraged to shield against her due to Up B. The threat of the death throw then instead sets up for elevator kills.

Yeah, her B-throw kills, but relative to other B-throw kills, it's not that strong? U-throw should definitely kill or be a setup throw. Right now, I think it's kind of both, but not leaning towards either which makes it not work as well... That and since she doesn't have a stupid disjointed laser like Falco's, means she has to have one or the other. F-throw killing would be great... Now, F-throw being able to setup Fair or Bair? Even better.

 

[PK Gaming]

Are we talking defensive in terms of just forcing approaches? Greninja is pretty good at that I guess

Everything. Forcing approaches, keeping people out, especially while the character is vulnerable (this is why I don't consider characters like DK to be good at defense since he's so prone to abused) and recovery.

 

[Ffamran]

I get that the Phantom is a frame 1 release from her charging pose, but if she was able to store it, surely she'd have to go through the same animation again in order to send it out? I don't think anyone's asking for a frame 1 meatshield anyway.

Bold idea: What if the Phantom didn't attack right away, but just stood there and only swung its sword if someone came close by?

She does have a whole lot of problems no matter how you slice it though. She just doesn't...flow all that well, I think. I'm struggling to define it in objective terms instead of feels, but even though I generally enjoy messing around with her I still end up floundering half the time.

Actually, real talk for a moment, does current not-fantasy-land Zelda actually win any matchups against anyone?

Hmm... looking at the animation and that apparently it's frame 11 at the minimum... Not that bad of an idea to let her store it and summon it. Let's say, frame 16 instead like Samus's Charge Shot... Perfectly fine while 11 would be pushing it, but it's Zelda, so she might need all the help she can get.

The sentinel idea works; protect the princess after all instead of being stupid and if reflected, betraying the princess. In a way, it would be a bit like a personal Pokémon or a close-ranged, self-targeting Gunman. The programming nightmares might not be worth it for the developers... My idea was that Phantom Slash should make her enter the suit of armor and function sort of like a Quick Draw. Why? Helps with recovery, but to make it not just a stronger, shorter-ranged Quick Draw, it could have durabillity where if you hit hard enough, the armor breaks down and maybe Zelda could be left in a shield break stun. This would also stop it from being reflected and killing her, but it doesn't stop it from reflecting her away to edgeguard her. The sentinel idea would stop that since it wouldn't be a projectile... anymore... Seriously, why is it a projectile?

 

[Kofu]

Hmm... looking at the animation and that apparently it's frame 11 at the minimum... Not that bad of an idea to let her store it and summon it. Let's say, frame 16 instead like Samus's Charge Shot... Perfectly fine while 11 would be pushing it, but it's Zelda, so she might need all the help she can get.

The sentinel idea works; protect the princess after all instead of being stupid and if reflected, betraying the princess. In a way, it would be a bit like a personal Pokémon or a close-ranged, self-targeting Gunman. The programming nightmares might not be worth it for the developers... My idea was that Phantom Slash should make her enter the suit of armor and function sort of like a Quick Draw. Why? Helps with recovery, but to make it not just a stronger, shorter-ranged Quick Draw, it could have durabillity where if you hit hard enough, the armor breaks down and maybe Zelda could be left in a shield break stun. This would also stop it from being reflected and killing her, but it doesn't stop it from reflecting her away to edgeguard her. The sentinel idea would stop that since it wouldn't be a projectile... anymore... Seriously, why is it a projectile?

I don't know jack about Phantom but it's possible for it to release, so to speak, on frame 1 without the hit box being out then. It just means that even if Zelda is interrupted the Phantom will not be. Pikachu's Thunder works on a similar principle. I think Lloid Rocket might too?

 

[Y2Kay]

Here's a crazy (stupid) idea. What if Phantom Knight could operate like luma? Maybe you could balance by giving bad hp, or automatically die by a certain time.

 

[Antonykun]

Here's a crazy (stupid) idea. What if Phantom Knight could operate like luma? Maybe you could balance by giving bad hp, or automatically die by a certain time.

you do realize that would mean new animation for the phantom knight something that has never done before in a patch

 

[ARISTOS]

Here's a crazy (stupid) idea. What if Phantom Knight could operate like luma? Maybe you could balance by giving bad hp, or automatically die by a certain time.

Even crazier-what if Zelda possessed Phantom Knight and replaced our current version of Zelda?

Spoiler

would prob. still be bad though b/c fatty and sword

 

[LancerStaff]

you do realize that would mean new animation for the phantom knight something that has never done before in a patch

I mean, buffing Zelda meaningfully has never happened either.

 

[Kofu]

Adding on to the second part. Mewtwo tends to wait for combos. His throws don't combo, only his tilts. Thus, Mewtwo has to do his thing, and wait for a punish or read to unload a 50% combo. Is that what you are talking about?

Kind of, yeah. No one likes Mewtwo to have a fully-charged Shadow Ball, which puts pressure on the opponent to approach, and Confusion makes projectile camping him difficult. But Mewtwo's combos seem a lot more potent than I imagine most defensive characters' to be.

Personally I find Link to be a very good example of a defensive character. His combos are short (though they still deal good damage just because he's a high-damage character); he tends to force approaches because his projectiles, while not especially threatening, are persistent and annoying; and his moves are more suited to swatted the opponent away than anything else. Even his grab is somewhat suited to playing defensively; though it's slow and thus doesn't do a good job at shield grabbing, its long range makes it good at nabbing approaching opponents.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Losing Ray is a big blow.

Guy is a literal genius who stole the win from FL by his hands alone.

I honestly think that Socal is stronger than Tristate. Tristate has Nairo and Dabuz, yes

But Socal has Zero, Larry and Void. Tristate's gonna need another Nakat destruction from EVO, which I honestly don't see happening. Vinnie/DKWill as subs does round out Tristate's line-up though.

Why did Rayquaza drop? Was it cuz school?

 

[Mario766]

Why did Rayquaza drop? Was it cuz school?

That'st he reason he doesn't travel period.

 

[Luigi player]

Fox is faster, combos us hard, doesn't care about shadow ball, and wipes out our stock really early with up air and up smash. Without a doubt a secondary need matchup.

Mewtwo does do well against: for what it's worth

Yeah, Fox is faster...
Combos us hard? How? From what I can tell Fox combos almost everyone pretty hard. Especially faster fallers (like Diddy Kong) or characters with bad aerial or landing options (DK). Characters with fast aerials can get out sometimes (like frame 3 nairs and stuff), but Fox can predict them and punish after, so it's not a free get 'out of combos' card.
Mewtwo being one of the only characters (Ness and Lucas being the other 2 that I know of) that can move while airdodging when doing it right after hitstun makes Fox having to guess if he can even continue his combos. With this Mewtwo can get out of utilt strings. Other combos can work of course, but those are the true combos that work on pretty much everyone and it's not so Mewtwo specific. They hurt Mewtwo a lot but so do they other characters. I'd actually say Fox has a bit of trouble even getting these combos started.

Fox likes jumping around you and come from above with dairs or nairs to pressure you, because they're pretty safe and their hitboxes are obnoxious. Mewtwo doesn't care about that, because of its great fair (or sometimes utilt). It also likes to create space between itself and the opponent so dodging away is a nice option too so that you can start pressuring with dtilts (which btw make it hard to approach Mewtwo on the ground, and combo into fair for free [especially on Fox who even at high % doesn't fly anywhere from dtilt]) or Shadow Balls.

I definitely disagree about Fox not caring about Shadow Ball. It can force reactions from Fox offstage to make him get hit easier by followups like fair or bair (or other stuff), small Shadow Balls will force Fox to stop his neutral and having to react to it somehow, slowing him down. Since Mewtwo can appraoch right after there's a guessing game as well if Mewtwo dashattacks, fairs, grabs, ... of course Mewtwo can also play it safe too and do nothing of these, slowly approaching with walk for dtilts or just charging Shadow Ball again. Fully or nearly fully charged Shadow Ball (I actually came to like the 'nearly fully charged' Shadow Ball the most, since you can mindgame if you shoot or not, where with the fully charged one its obvious if you shoot it it'll be shot; and if it isn't fully charged you can do wavebounces and all that awesome stuff for even more mindgames) can also be used, though they're probably unsafe if you shoot while being too near to Fox. If you aren't you can just sideB reflect it back and kill him at like 0 or pretty low % if he isn't careful.

Mewtwos dtilt + fair create a super nice wall generally and Fox really dislikes approaching through this. While Mewtwo can approach freely with his pretty safe moves, which also combo and make Fox fear for his life. You could even go so far as to say Mewtwo kinda controls the match in neutral.

Of course Fox kills Mewtwo pretty early and you have to watch out for his moves that combo into usmash like dair and nair. But if you're careful and since Mewtwo likes playing the waiting game it actually isn't too hard to avoid, or like I already said combat them with your own moves. And Mewtwo KOs Fox super early too. He has to watch out for grabs at 110+ (depending on rage or stagepositioning), he has to watch out for fairs which are super fast and strong, he has to watch out for dtilt which combos into so much, can be forced to react to Shadow Ball, etc... Fox really does not have a field day in this MU, imo.

Abadango vs SH kinda showed this and I played the MU again to get a better feel for it and it really feels like Mewtwo could even have the upper hand, but I won't go that far just from a few games. I'd definitely say right now that it's not a terrible or truly bad MU for Mewtwo.

 

[bc1910]

Mewtwo does well against Greninja too.

He's a curious character.

I can't see him as a low tier any more, at least. Bottom of mid at worst.

 

[outfoxd]

Why did Rayquaza drop? Was it cuz school?

I think he's coming back harder in break but idk.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'd list Mewtwo in "Borderline" along with guys like Bowser and Robin.

On a semi-related note, is there a consensus on Marth vs. Roy? Basically, is Marth's spacing ability superior at a higher level than Roy's raw power? People hyped Roy up a lot but he's gotten one 9th place finish as far as I'm aware and doesn't seem to have the same tools to be viable like Lucas and definitely isn't anywhere near as good as Ryu.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I'd list Mewtwo in "Borderline" along with guys like Bowser and Robin.

On a semi-related note, is there a consensus on Marth vs. Roy? Basically, is Marth's spacing ability superior at a higher level than Roy's raw power? People hyped Roy up a lot but he's gotten one 9th place finish as far as I'm aware and doesn't seem to have the same tools to be viable like Lucas and definitely isn't anywhere near as good as Ryu.

Comparing Roy to Lucas doesn't work because they are both underwhelming...

 

[teddystalin]

On a semi-related note, is there a consensus on Marth vs. Roy? Basically, is Marth's spacing ability superior at a higher level than Roy's raw power? People hyped Roy up a lot but he's gotten one 9th place finish as far as I'm aware and doesn't seem to have the same tools to be viable like Lucas and definitely isn't anywhere near as good as Ryu.

While this topic has kinda been done to death over the course of the various CCI and Viability Survey threads, I know @Shaya has been sharing some really interesting thoughts on the pair over various posts on the Marth boards if he'd like to come and sum them up here.

 

[Y2Kay]

Aww man shaya's been alive for a week now and I didn't find out till now?

 

[Radical Larry]

I'd list Mewtwo in "Borderline" along with guys like Bowser and Robin.

On a semi-related note, is there a consensus on Marth vs. Roy? Basically, is Marth's spacing ability superior at a higher level than Roy's raw power? People hyped Roy up a lot but he's gotten one 9th place finish as far as I'm aware and doesn't seem to have the same tools to be viable like Lucas and definitely isn't anywhere near as good as Ryu.

I think Roy's mobility, reach and far superior frame data, grab and throw combo game and edge-guarding game trump Marth by far. Plus, Roy's raw power allows him to KO opponents far earlier in a game where you need to get in your opponent's face. I think Roy trumps Marth basically, but he doesn't seem to be as viable as Lucas or Ryu, but somewhere way above Marth is where I believe he could be, maybe just a little bit (one or two places) behind Lucas in terms of viability. He's not as good as Link, Ike, MK, Toon Link or Cloud for sure, but he's not as bad as the other sword fighting characters in the game.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yeah, Fox is faster...
Combos us hard? How? From what I can tell Fox combos almost everyone pretty hard. Especially faster fallers (like Diddy Kong) or characters with bad aerial or landing options (DK). Characters with fast aerials can get out sometimes (like frame 3 nairs and stuff), but Fox can predict them and punish after, so it's not a free get 'out of combos' card.
Mewtwo being one of the only characters (Ness and Lucas being the other 2 that I know of) that can move while airdodging when doing it right after hitstun makes Fox having to guess if he can even continue his combos. With this Mewtwo can get out of utilt strings. Other combos can work of course, but those are the true combos that work on pretty much everyone and it's not so Mewtwo specific. They hurt Mewtwo a lot but so do they other characters. I'd actually say Fox has a bit of trouble even getting these combos started.

Fox likes jumping around you and come from above with dairs or nairs to pressure you, because they're pretty safe and their hitboxes are obnoxious. Mewtwo doesn't care about that, because of its great fair (or sometimes utilt). It also likes to create space between itself and the opponent so dodging away is a nice option too so that you can start pressuring with dtilts (which btw make it hard to approach Mewtwo on the ground, and combo into fair for free [especially on Fox who even at high % doesn't fly anywhere from dtilt]) or Shadow Balls.

I definitely disagree about Fox not caring about Shadow Ball. It can force reactions from Fox offstage to make him get hit easier by followups like fair or bair (or other stuff), small Shadow Balls will force Fox to stop his neutral and having to react to it somehow, slowing him down. Since Mewtwo can appraoch right after there's a guessing game as well if Mewtwo dashattacks, fairs, grabs, ... of course Mewtwo can also play it safe too and do nothing of these, slowly approaching with walk for dtilts or just charging Shadow Ball again. Fully or nearly fully charged Shadow Ball (I actually came to like the 'nearly fully charged' Shadow Ball the most, since you can mindgame if you shoot or not, where with the fully charged one its obvious if you shoot it it'll be shot; and if it isn't fully charged you can do wavebounces and all that awesome stuff for even more mindgames) can also be used, though they're probably unsafe if you shoot while being too near to Fox. If you aren't you can just sideB reflect it back and kill him at like 0 or pretty low % if he isn't careful.

Mewtwos dtilt + fair create a super nice wall generally and Fox really dislikes approaching through this. While Mewtwo can approach freely with his pretty safe moves, which also combo and make Fox fear for his life. You could even go so far as to say Mewtwo kinda controls the match in neutral.

Of course Fox kills Mewtwo pretty early and you have to watch out for his moves that combo into usmash like dair and nair. But if you're careful and since Mewtwo likes playing the waiting game it actually isn't too hard to avoid, or like I already said combat them with your own moves. And Mewtwo KOs Fox super early too. He has to watch out for grabs at 110+ (depending on rage or stagepositioning), he has to watch out for fairs which are super fast and strong, he has to watch out for dtilt which combos into so much, can be forced to react to Shadow Ball, etc... Fox really does not have a field day in this MU, imo.

Abadango vs SH kinda showed this and I played the MU again to get a better feel for it and it really feels like Mewtwo could even have the upper hand, but I won't go that far just from a few games. I'd definitely say right now that it's not a terrible or truly bad MU for Mewtwo.

Mewtwo doesn't have any good landing aerials. Fair is mediocre on account of the fact that it does not hit below him. Other then that, he has a large Hurtbox, making it a bit easier for Fox to juggle him and catch his landing. That is a smaller point though, because as you said, Mewtwo has the Airdodge mix-ups.

Mewtwo can get out of the third Utilt with proper DI, he still gets hit by the first two. And Phasing isn't that amazing if used too often. It is a free stock if Fox predicts an approaching one.

Dair combos are pretty potent on Mewtwo.

Fair isn't a good anti approach tool. It is best to save it for combos and kills, Utilt outclasses it through combo potential. Dtilt are good for anti approach, but Fox isn't completely shut out by them. DA almost beats it, and it does if you mistime Dtilt slightly.

SB is very useful in this MU. You can condition your opponent to reflector upon landing. Nuff said. Plus, SB is good at catching side b's and such.

Mewtwo has to be careful. Mewtwo may have safe aerials, but Fox still has a ton of options. If Mewtwo whiffs a landing Fair. Fox can Usmash. If Fox predicts a falling Fair. Free Usmash. Fox sees Mewtwo Nairing. Free Usmash. Whiffed Uair. Free Usmash. Mewtwo can die at 60-70% from a random Usmash. A missed spaced Fair will also result in a punish. Also, never grab as Mewtwo unless you know it will connect.

Rising Fair can be a danger in this MU, but falling Fair is not that great. You need to be really careful with it. Use it only out of a phase or at low Percents. Dtilt only gets combos at the base(except Uair, tipper) from about 70%. It is rather safe to get hit be any other portion, as the worst that can happen is a DA, or if Mewtwo reads all your options, Usmash. (Just jump away).

Aba vs. SH cannot count. Aba has a on-point Mewtwo. He knows so many new combos and has them down. Thus, SH didn't know how to fight his Mewtwo. The only other one out there is Ginko, who would probably go R.O.B in this MU. While Aba definetly knew the ins and outs of this MU. The MU is better now though. Probably only 60:40 or a bit worse/better.