Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[~ Gheb ~]

You guys are silly. Sheik is clearly the character with the strongest defense.

 

[Radical Larry]

You guys are silly. Shulk is clearly the character with the strongest defense.

I had to take the opportunity, dude, I just had to.

 

[Das Koopa]

I read up on @Shaya's huge Marth/Roy post, and... yeah, that seems about right. Well reasoned and pretty convincing. One of my problems in constructing my views/list on the characters is knowing how far apart the FE Trio are from one another and I think that post indicates Roy probably hangs with the BL crew. Not sure how much worse Lucina is from Marth.

 

[GeneralLedge]

EDIT: wrong topic.

 

[Ffamran]

I think Roy's mobility, reach and far superior frame data, grab and throw combo game and edge-guarding game trump Marth by far.

I'm sorry, but what? You say a lot of radical things - it's in your name after all -, but those are incorrect. Roy's attacks are generally shorter than Marth's because reverse grip attacks somehow represent power when Roy could have been a two-handed swordsmen. Yes, it's possible to use swords with two hands. Ask anyone who knows kendo. I don't even consider Ike a two-handed swordsmen at times while Cloud and Shulk are, but more like big freaking sword users versus someone who just two-hands a sword. That's another story, though... Anyway, reverse grip kills Roy's range and the moves where he doesn't use a reverse grip has him equal or be even slightly shorter than Marth's range - Roy's slightly shorter than Marth if I recall correctly. Side Smash is the only notable move where Roy wins in range, but you're tippering with him... The opposite of what you want.

Frame data? Lucina, Marth, and Roy have similar if not the same frame data. Hell, even Ike and Robin share traits 'cause why the **** not? Easier to set a franchise template that screws over some characters like how Robin has the same grab frames as Luci, Marth, and Roy, but none of the mobility to abuse it. Oh, and having a longer recovery time? Why? She's already slow as hell. Roy's moves either equal or are slightly slower than Marth's and his landing lag is slightly worse than Marth's.

Why does he seem so stronger? It's way easier to hit someone pointblank than far away. Why do you think people recommend shotguns over rifles, especially sniper rifles for home defense? Marth rewards people for their precision; Roy punishes people for their poor precision.

Edit: Roy's high fall speed, low jump, and poor recovery is not ideal for edgeguarding. Can he gimp? Can he kill? Yep, and so can Little Mac, but like Little Mac, it's not safe. Marth who has average air speed, an average jump, and can kill at a safe distance rather than be forced to kill at a close distance? Yeah, Marth wins in edgeguarding not Roy. There's also Marth having an instant Dolphin Slash that will stage spike the hell out of you.

 

[Das Koopa]

For anybody interested, this is Shaya's post:

http://smashboards.com/threads/seizon-senryaku-marth-general.366765/page-76#post-20654232

Random note: I hope Waveguider goes to EVO or something because I want people to see WFT in action so they'll stop calling her Bottom 10/5.

 

[Nobie]

I hope it isn't too confusing bringing the Marth discussion from his board over here, but I think part of why Marth is viewed as having less potential is that he wasn't just nerfed, his archetype was more firmly placed into that of the fencer.

In past games, Marth could overpower and overwhelm opponents. He could wall them our, juggle them to death, and more. He was smooth and powerful. However, I think the idea going into Smash 4 was that this was too much, not simply because it wins more often but because when he starts unleashing the strings and combos he stops being about a necessary finesse that is beautiful by virtue of how he endangers himself.

In other words, Marth seems to me designed to be a character that thrives in grounded neutral above all else, and because he doesn't quite have the mighty powerups he used to he feels restricted to Marth veterans. Marth was a canvas of possibilities and now he's someone where you use his strengths OR ELSE. This is why all of his buffs thus far have concentrated on the neutral, and why he will most likely not get a hoo hah or crazy auto cancel windows.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've seen Shaya's post... Just don't see how Roy can even do as well as Marth against the characters that matter. His better throw game and higher kill power doesn't make up for his significantly worse survival ability and having basically one approach tool.

 

[RonNewcomb]

My new hobby: destroying FG Clouds with Marth.

Notes to self:
* Marth's jab & tilts beat Cloud's, so keep the fight grounded when possible.
* Landtrapping isn't worth the risk.
* Pummel. When throw combos cease to work (i.e., "quickly and often"), three pummels do more damage than any of Marth's throws...
* ...and after pummel break, f-tilt (& jab) frame trap Cloud's everything, save a couple of LB specials.
* Cloud loves his dash attack. Marth loves punishing stupid mistakes with Dancing Blade.
* edgeguard, edgeguard, edgeguard. Marth's attacks send Cloud annoyingly high offstage.
* The third and final strike of Cloud's f-smash reaches further than the first two. It's also the only one worth Countering.
* Cloud's fullhop dair combo starter is a free counter.
* When trying to land, many u-airs are also easy to see coming. Counter doubles as a good airstall even on failure.
* As always, walk don't run.

 

[LordShade67]

snip.

And then, there's the fact that Roy, being a fastfaller, has to take being juggled/comboed to hell and back whether he likes it or not.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I don't think Marth is as bad as certain people make him out to be, I don't think he's great either. Marth, in this game, is a character based on his tilts, jab, and specials, which is different from his grab/combo/aerial-centric characters in Brawl and Melee. His playstyle has changed from Brawl so much that people still have not found the most optimized way to play him due to these changes, or get turned off by it and pick up another character.

I agree that a grounded neutral based around his walk is extremely powerful for Marth, as well as making use of a very elegant and wonderful SHAD --> aerial.

 

[Ffamran]

Random note: I hope Waveguider goes to EVO or something because I want people to see WFT in action so they'll stop calling her Bottom 10/5.

Is JohnNumbers not going to Genesis? If he is, then there's one known WFT who'll be there. As for unknown WFTs... Can we have a random Russian WFT blow our minds out in the future? In the Russian Federation, Wii break U.

 

[Radical Larry]

If I ever run with Marth, I'll often tomahawk backward to see if I can bait them into trying to give an attack, then rush on in against the opponent if they try an attack or shield/grab if they rush. If I ever try using F-Air or N-Air with Marth, I tend to retreat in the event someone shields, which is what is reasonable to do if you space your opponent out.

Hey, can anyone see if Marth's D-Air beats (and meteors) Cloud's U-Spec recovery?

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm gonna put up a list of characters I think are useful secondaries / pockets. No particular ranking.

1. : Though MK's holy grail combo and neutral aren't the easiest to learn, good mastery of this will make him an invaluable secondary for nearly any troublesome matchup you may have. Suitable for any high tier characters like who have just a few top tier match ups that are not preferable. His dedication is more on the level of a main, however.

2. : Cloud is shaping up to be a good secondary as of late. It's super early right now, but with his good showings, he has a fair shot of being an optimal secondary for the future. His future maybe uncertain, but right now he's pretty easy to learn but and not easy to fight.

3. robably requires the most work of any of the secondaries, but hey, she IS the best character right now. You also probably need a secondary to beat sheik right now, and who wants to ditto someoe's main?

4. :Ah, alas. It's the Swiss army knife Mario! He's got tools to deal with a lot of situations, and isn't too hard to learn either. Always a good pick

5. : are rush-down characters like getting you down? Kirby might be the secondary for you! He doesn't really do super great in other match ups, but he's definitely a solid option to choose.

6. : Mewtwo here is the polar opposite. He excels against zoners such as The only problem is, he requires some dedication and practice for a while, but it may be worth it for characters like that may struggle with campy play.

7. : Now, I know Pitoo is kinda obsolete compared to Mario, but hear me out. Wintropy did mention a little while back the ebony pit v rosalina match up may or may not be in his favor. I personally think it is (slightly) in his favor. If you want a secondary who can do well in the Rosalina effort, and don't have the time (or patience) to learn , pittoo might just be for you.

Heehee, that last one rhymed. Mixtape coming 20XX

Any other good secondaries you can think of?

 

[ARISTOS]

seems to fulfill that combo urge that comes with having formerly mained /. One of my friends who loved the former Marths immediately switched once Roy came out.

seems to have been shifted towards a precise moveset-when it works it is fantastic and you feel like a spacing god, but too many characters can breach his space with ease and he finds it hard to regain his ground. Unlike most top tiers he can't throw things out for free so he's mostly relying on his fantastic walkspeed/jab and sometimes ftlit to maintain space and apply pressure.

Don't want to distract too much from the conversation at hand, but final note: is insane. Out of all characters cited to be top 10, he's the one that probably has the most potential to grow outside of ZSS/Sheik IMO. His neutral has all he needs and once he gets in you eat a ton of damage.

 

[Mario766]

Dunno why anyone would want to secondary Kirby. Yes Kirby does 'decent' against those characters, but what characters that do well in other MUs, but may need a secondary in those MUs, would you want Kirby secondary.

You also said Ryu having a secondary. For how much work you need to put into getting Ryu's execution down you really can't bust out secondaries without taking time away from Ryu.

Cloud's easy to pick up, will probably do well against high/top tiers with some slightly rough MUs and has an easy way to play.

Definite strong secondary, I''m doing just this.

 

[Wintropy]

: Now, I know Pitoo is kinda obsolete compared to Mario, but hear me out. Wintropy did mention a little while back the ebony pit v rosalina match up may or may not be in his favor. I personally think it is (slightly) in his favor. If you want a secondary who can do well in the Rosalina effort, and don't have the time (or patience) to learn , pittoo might just be for you.

Played a Rosalina in friendlies yesterday, and while I can't confirm it with experience in bracket, buffed Electroshock does seem to give him a solid edge in neutral. More often than not, it just takes one hit from centre-stage to kill Luma. I had to eat a few shield-grabs to compensate, but I think that's a small price to pay when you have the potential to neutralise Rosie's main weapon with one input.

I think they're pretty even when Luma is out of the picture, they can trade well in the air and can both edgeguard the other reasonably well. Winning neutral seems more important than ever now: both can harass the other effectively in advantage, and if Luma is killed, it adds a whole 'nother dynamic to the match (Rosie wants to keep Pittoo out until Luma is revived, Pittoo wants to capitalise on SoRo's gimped neutral while the opportunity's open). Neutral can easily end up centralised around Electroshock in that sense. Arrows don't make a big difference here, Rosie can just eat them up with GP, so Vanilla Pit doesn't have any notable advantage over Pittoo.

He's not a counter to Rosie by any means (I'd put it at +1 for Pittoo at most, but it's more likely even), but considering how easy he is to pick up and how effective an option Electroshock is, I'd say he's a good pocket for this matchup. You could definitely do worse than Buraku Pitto.

 

[Djent]

is among the best vs. ZSS, doesn't get destroyed by Rosa or Sonic, and has a bearable Sheik MU. For these reasons I'd recommend him to heavy mains who don't like Sheik dittos.

 

[bc1910]

I think MK's neutral is pretty absurd for a character with such easy death combo conversions. Back roll, dash attack and dash grab are notoriously difficult to punish when used correctly.

He doesn't have the option-rich neutral of a character like Sheik or Diddy but he doesn't require that to do what he wants to do.

In terms of secondaries, Cloud is looking like a great choice. He's easy to use and is shaping up to have one of, if not THE best, Sheik MUs in the current meta. Still a bit early to call that but there's certainly potential.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think MK's neutral is pretty absurd for a character with such easy death combo conversions. Back roll, dash attack and dash grab are notoriously difficult to punish when used correctly.

He doesn't have the option-rich neutral of a character like Sheik or Diddy but he doesn't require that to do what he wants to do.

In terms of secondaries, Cloud is looking like a great choice. He's easy to use and is shaping up to have one of, if not THE best, Sheik MUs in the current meta. Still a bit early to call that but there's certainly potential.

What exactly does cloud do that makes him difficult for sheik? Is it like the Lucario MU, where he abuses sheik's lack of kill power?

 

[Jams.]

I think MK's neutral is pretty absurd for a character with such easy death combo conversions. Back roll, dash attack and dash grab are notoriously difficult to punish when used correctly.

He doesn't have the option-rich neutral of a character like Sheik or Diddy but he doesn't require that to do what he wants to do.

In terms of secondaries, Cloud is looking like a great choice. He's easy to use and is shaping up to have one of, if not THE best, Sheik MUs in the current meta. Still a bit early to call that but there's certainly potential.

This is pretty standard in the land of the privileged elite, where your weaknesses are only relative to the other top tiers and don't actually compensate for your strengths. A land where Sheik has problems killing, ZSS has a mediocre neutral, and Diddy has a bad recovery.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah. ZSS's neutral only looks bad compared to the other top tiers. I know some mid and low tiers that would kill a man to have her neutral.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

5. :rush-down characters like

I used to think this too (very recently actually) but it was brought to my attention (And after a bit of labbing) the Sheik MU is actually pretty bad. Depending on how you describe -1/-2 is a (imo) -2. We die offstage because of our gimpable recovery, and even though we force her to approach by ducking, her plethora of options, amazing frame data, and safety on shield makes it tough to counteract her. Along with that, her mobility is also greater, her 50/50 is earlier, and her n-air makes combo-ing hard.

Dunno why anyone would want to secondary Kirby. Yes Kirby does 'decent' against those characters, but what characters that do well in other MUs, but may need a secondary in those MUs, would you want Kirby secondary.

You also said Ryu having a secondary. For how much work you need to put into getting Ryu's execution down you really can't bust out secondaries without taking time away from Ryu.

Cloud's easy to pick up, will probably do well against high/top tiers with some slightly rough MUs and has an easy way to play.

Definite strong secondary, I''m doing just this.

Kirby is a good secondary for ZSS and Fox, since he has even-ish MUs with them. If you struggle with those characters and don't want to main Sheik, Kirby is a great very-situational secondary.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is JohnNumbers not going to Genesis? If he is, then there's one known WFT who'll be there. As for unknown WFTs... Can we have a random Russian WFT blow our minds out in the future? In the Russian Federation, Wii break U.

JohnNumbers beating not only Vinnie but Mr. E too with WFT should be enough to show that the character is far from total trash but I feel like it's a character that's always going to be grossly underrated.

 

[Mario766]

Is there any relevant Sheik vs Cloud matches on video?

We've seen Cloud vs ZSS through Tweek/Nairo, but I don't recall Sheik vs Cloud being shown.

 

[Vipermoon]

JohnNumbers beating not only Vinnie but Mr. E too with WFT should be enough to show that the character is far from total trash but I feel like it's a character that's always going to be grossly underrated.

I found it very amusing that Mr. E using Sheik against Numbers consistently did not go well for him while using Marth worked much better for him.

And no one say it's because his Marth is better because while that may be true (on a mastery scale), his Sheik is still really good. His Sheik did beat Ally in one set recently.

 

[Ffamran]

Is there any relevant Sheik vs Cloud matches on video?

We've seen Cloud vs ZSS through Tweek/Nairo, but I don't recall Sheik vs Cloud being shown.

Check the Cloud video thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-video-thread-matchups-techs-etc.426060/. Currently, there's these:

Trela's Cloud vs. Karna's Sheik (Winner Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLqhbweBPMY.

Trela's Cloud vs. Karna's Sheik (Grand Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXEUTGYu9xo. Both of Trela's sets were posted like a week ago in this thread.

These you might not have seen:

VoiD's Cloud, Sheik, and Fox vs. K9Bruce's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PAdmLmufwk. VoiD stays for like 1 round before switching, so not really helpful.

Nicko's Cloud vs. K9Bruce's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJFW5n4jLwo.

Nicko's Cloud vs. Cacogen's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWWUleeZ3n0.

 

[Vipermoon]

Check the Cloud video thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-video-thread-matchups-techs-etc.426060/. Currently, there's these:

Trela's Cloud vs. Karna's Sheik (Winner Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLqhbweBPMY.

Trela's Cloud vs. Karna's Sheik (Grand Finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXEUTGYu9xo. Both of Trela's sets were posted like a week ago in this thread.

These you might not have seen:

VoiD's Cloud, Sheik, and Fox vs. K9Bruce's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PAdmLmufwk. VoiD stays for like 1 round before switching, so not really helpful.

Nicko's Cloud vs. K9Bruce's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJFW5n4jLwo.

Nicko's Cloud vs. Cacogen's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWWUleeZ3n0.

Hey look, Nicko is using Cloud. More proof that Cloud's existence makes Marth useless.

 

[S_B]

You guys are silly. Sheik is clearly the character with the strongest defense.

Considering she's the character many other characters have the hardest time hitting, yeah, I agree.

It's as they say: the best defense is a good offense.

 

[Y2Kay]

Considering she's the character many other characters have the hardest time hitting, yeah, I agree.

It's as they say: the best defense is a good offense.

As they say, having the best defense, offense, mobility, and frame data makes you the best character.

 

[Lavani]

Here is specifically what happened to Sheik's Fair.

The range/disjoint was increased. I recently checked out Fair in Melee and Brawl and they have noticeably less range.

Late reply, haven't been home lately but I do want to address this.

Here is Melee Sheik's fair:

Here is the range Sm4sh Sheik's fair phantom hits Mega Man:

Her arm's not intangible in either game, and it really doesn't look much different between the two - maybe her arm being completely outstretched gives it slightly more range in Sm4sh, but that's marginal at best. As Mario766 said, it's really just that it's a move with Melee range and frame data in a game where other characters don't have that, on top of its lowered damage retooling it into an amazing combo move.

As an aside, Melee L-cancel fair was 8 frames of landing lag. Sm4sh's is 10 frames.

 

[san.]

Doesn't she seem to lunge farther in that screenshot?

 

[Lavani]

You're probably right, I did forget about that. I don't have Melee on hand to compare but I don't remember her lunging as much with it in that game.

Mostly I was addressing the disjoint, though, which hasn't really changed over games.

 

[Vipermoon]

Late reply, haven't been home lately but I do want to address this.

Here is Melee Sheik's fair:

Here is the range Sm4sh Sheik's fair phantom hits Mega Man:

Her arm's not intangible in either game, and it really doesn't look much different between the two - maybe her arm being completely outstretched gives it slightly more range in Sm4sh, but that's marginal at best. As Mario766 said, it's really just that it's a move with Melee range and frame data in a game where other characters don't have that, on top of its lowered damage retooling it into an amazing combo move.

As an aside, Melee L-cancel fair was 8 frames of landing lag. Sm4sh's is 10 frames.

I tested Brawl Marth Fair vs Brawl Sheik Fair and also did Melee vs Melee. As we all know by now, Smash 4 Sheik's Fair reaches further than Smash 4 Marth's. While in Brawl (and Melee) Marth's wins even though I know that Marth's Fair reaches the exact same in Brawl and Smash 4.

Looking at your first picture, it seems Brawl Sheik Fair reaches that exact amount past the hand. Your second picture could also imply that Sheik not only reaches her hand further in Smash 4 but also leans her whole body more forward (with the disjoint being the same past the hand). Whatever it is, it's enough of a difference that from Brawl to Smash 4 the Fair comparison went from clearly loses to clearly wins.

What made it a combo move was the new 50 degree knockback angle. They knew what they were doing when they created this move.

It could have 60 frames of landing lag and it wouldn't matter thanks to autocancel. But I'm okay with that. It's a tradition for this move to autocancel like crazy and I'm all for uniqueness.

 

[Yonder]

I'm gonna put up a list of characters I think are useful secondaries / pockets. No particular ranking.

1. : Though MK's holy grail combo and neutral aren't the easiest to learn, good mastery of this will make him an invaluable secondary for nearly any troublesome matchup you may have. Suitable for any high tier characters like who have just a few top tier match ups that are not preferable. His dedication is more on the level of a main, however.

2. : Cloud is shaping up to be a good secondary as of late. It's super early right now, but with his good showings, he has a fair shot of being an optimal secondary for the future. His future maybe uncertain, but right now he's pretty easy to learn but and not easy to fight.

3. robably requires the most work of any of the secondaries, but hey, she IS the best character right now. You also probably need a secondary to beat sheik right now, and who wants to ditto someoe's main?

4. :Ah, alas. It's the Swiss army knife Mario! He's got tools to deal with a lot of situations, and isn't too hard to learn either. Always a good pick

5. : are rush-down characters like getting you down? Kirby might be the secondary for you! He doesn't really do super great in other match ups, but he's definitely a solid option to choose.

6. : Mewtwo here is the polar opposite. He excels against zoners such as The only problem is, he requires some dedication and practice for a while, but it may be worth it for characters like that may struggle with campy play.

7. : Now, I know Pitoo is kinda obsolete compared to Mario, but hear me out. Wintropy did mention a little while back the ebony pit v rosalina match up may or may not be in his favor. I personally think it is (slightly) in his favor. If you want a secondary who can do well in the Rosalina effort, and don't have the time (or patience) to learn , pittoo might just be for you.

Heehee, that last one rhymed. Mixtape coming 20XX

Any other good secondaries you can think of?

Luigi is a handy secondary, has a decent matchup vs Mario, Pikachu, Diddy, and beats Fox. That alone always warrents him as a valuable secondary, an an even better counterpick.

Anyone else feel that Game and Watch is just a solid character all around too? I feel he can survive in virtually any matchup, and he doesn't really dominate or lose any matchups badly. With a fantastic recovery, enough disjoints, OK killing power...and great edgeguariding, he can manage well as a secondary too. Game and Watch doesn't get mutilated by Sheik either, as I tried using him as a counterpick last tourney against one. I lost last game last hit, but I always choke in those situations...that I always seem to get into. Game and Watch is a solid mid, maybe even upper mid. Regi using him solo before is a fantastic feat too. Try him out for a secondary, if you want someone who goes mostly average against the cast.

I only use Gdub as a secondary though at times so correct me if he does have a dominating or terrible matchup, he kinda goes 40:60 at worst and 60:40 at best.

 

[Mario766]

Sheik definitely reaches out further when doing F-Airs giving it that slightly extra oomph on the range.

It's an overloaded move on a kit that is already overloaded with safety and combo ability.

Sounds like top tier in a nutshell.

 

[Ffamran]

Moving this over from the other thread...

The reason his Dair is bad has nothing to do with its speed or its actives, it's its size. Falco's Dair was so spectacular because it was a high-active move with a spike angle. But in Smash 4, the form hasn't really changed but it has essentially become a precision attack. This is why you see characters like Ganondorf, Yoshi and Cfalcon land off-stage spikes so much more frequently than Falco, the attack is just easier to land.

Luigi's Dair is small, but it's fast enough, frame 10, where you can setup a Dair from his D-throw. Ryu's Dair hitbox is also small, but when you can confirm it from a Nair like a Street Fighter version of the Ken Combo, then it doesn't matter. Speed matters as much as everything else. For a slow character like Falco, having fast attacks is really useful; it's pretty much why he, Dr. Mario, and Kirby even stand a chance and why Palutena, Triple D, and Zelda are considered bad because when they try to hit, they can't because they're way too slow either movement-wise or hit-wise. Pally's one of the faster-moving characters, but when your ground game is limited to just jab and dash attack with grabs to setup, you're really screwed. If Pally's tilts were much faster like if Ftilt was frame 12 instead of 17 and Dtilt was frame 10 instead of 14, she might actually be able to defend herself other than run the hell away or try to shield bash you which is telegraphed because she has to dash. It really sucks since Pally's aerials are good, but when your ground game is almost nonexistent, you're not going to be flexible enough to do much. Zelda's even worse where her ground and aerial game are nonexistent. You can Dtilt all day, Zelda, but you don't have the rest of Ryu's kit to do anything, but flop about and die.

If we want to talk about hitboxes, then yes, Falco's Dair has a small hitbox. Assuming it hasn't been changed since the sour-spot did gain a size increase from 5.0 to 5.3, it's probably like Brawl's.

Spoiler: Gifs in spoilers for those with slower connections

Compare this with Melee's.

I couldn't find one for Captain Falcon for Brawl or Smash 4, but knowing it can hit through ledges while Falco's can't... There was a reason why it was called the Nipple Spike in Melee.

When you think about it, Brawl and, assuming, Smash 4 Falco's Dair hitbox is fair, but like I said, speed matters since you're now aiming with a small hitbox that takes 16 frames to come out and you're in the air. 16 frames is fine on the ground when you're mostly dealing with lateral, more linear movement vs. aerial movement. Oh, and let's not forget that Captain Falcon's higher air speed would let him drift in faster even if his air acceleration is worse than Falco meaning he can't control where he's going as easily, but what are you going to do as he drifts into you and you have really no idea what he's going to do? People panic air dodge and that's when he Fairs or Dairs you. Falco can't do that when people are outspeeding him in the air and drifting out faster than he can drift in.

Yes, he gained some edgeguard ability in Nair and Fair...but Falco's strength was his ability to KILL you offstage, not edgeguard you. These days your typical Captain Falcon is far more dangerous offstage than Falco is. Speaking of Falcon, again, you can compare his Uair to Captain Falcon's as well....but Falcon's is way better. Again, because it's stronger, and has a much bigger hitbox.

Spoiler: More Falco stuff nobody wants to read

He still can kill you off-stage. Why do you think those red sparks fly out when he Nairs or Fairs you off-stage? Either he straight-up killed you or the game just knows you can't make it back and puts the nail on the coffin. Edgeguarding and gimping are just things he can do as well. He'll keep racking up percent as you try to make it back to the stage and he'll gimp you if your recovery isn't good enough or you made a mistake of going to far down and away when he caught you. Falco's also one of the few characters who can hang on the ledge and wait for you to come back. Why? Frame 4 Bair that will kill you at 100% center stage. Other characters have to deal with the fact their Bairs while strong, aren't as freaking fast as his. Coupled with his high jump, Falco can drop low, do a rising Bair, kill you, and make it back on-stage.

Falco's strength wasn't his ability to kill you off-stage; it was his ability to combo you with high damage and high knockback moves. In every game he appeared and despite having different play styles, he always retained that trait. You do realize that Melee Falco's iconic Shine to Dair or Bair did 17% to 20%. Melee Falco being able to repeat that could take you to 100% faster than you can say: "Pineapple Surprise". Brawl Falco's Blaster, the existence of chain-grabbing, and hit stun canceling limited his combo game, but even then, he was vertically inclined when the gatling combo existed where dash attack sort of became his Shine confirm, but limited only to Up Smash. Not to mention D-throw could setup Dair and he wanted you to be in the air for followups. Smash 4 Falco is all about using his moves, dash attack, Utilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, falling Uair, U-throw, and D-throw to get you into the air and start comboing you. What changed in each game is he lost setups. Some you could argue were broken like a frame 1 hit confirm in Melee. What changed notably is in Smash 4, Falco became horizontally-inclined when it came to comboing. Bair comboing into itself was a launch example while Nair and Fair were post-patch examples. Falco can and will choose where you're going when he hits you. Nair having a facing restriction helps with that.

His other more notorious strength was his zoning game. Melee was fairer, but still infamous when Falco could lasers you and move forward. He zoned and approached at a speed with close combat options other characters barely reached. Smash 4 Luigi would like to grab you, but his Fireballs don't cover as much range as Falco's lasers in any game. Melee Falco? He could do whatever he wanted and you were at his mercy. Brawl Falco took this up a notch of broken as hell when he could place 2 lasers making ground and aerial approaches against him almost impossible for some characters. And like in Melee, Brawl Falco could do as he pleased once he got into your zone. This was one strength outright removed. It wasn't toned down like Fox's; it was removed and for good reason. Falco shouldn't have been able to approach while zoning like that... but he should have been able to zone.

Edit: Also, Falco's range, in general, is actually pretty short for his height. For example, his Bair, I believe, has shorter range than Fox's. Falco just hits lazily for almost all moves but Up Smash which you could argue is the only move he puts effort in outside of Dair, but I blame artificial slowing down since we all know Falco's capable of doing Dair much faster than in Smash 4. This goes against him since Falco wants to fight close up, but having short range like that pretty much kills him.

is just a victim of your typical overcompensating nerf. Everything that was previously integral to his old playstyle has been deliberately nerfed SO BAD that they're currently the worst moves in his arsenal -- Laser is probably the worst projectile in the game (I'd tie it with 's ) and he has the among the worst Dairs of its type. All of the moves that should be stock enders for him (Dair, Uair, Upsmash, Fsmash) are better on other characters.

Spoiler: Oh look, more Falco nonsense

Falco was a victim of: "We ****** up", by the developers. He, Meta Knight, and maybe Marth - arguable on Marth - were way over-tuned in Brawl. I can understand why Meta Knight was because he was a newcomer, but Falco? The developers did not, I repeat: did not need to touch his Blaster or Falco Phantasm, but they did and they unfathomably made them even better, even broken. How the hell do you do this? The changes to his jab, Utilt, Side Smash, Nair, Uair, and Fair were fine to make him more of a semi-clone, but but Blaster and Falco Phantasm better? Oh, but they made Reflector not broken and useful offensively... Yeah... That still doesn't fix the fact Blaster invalidated characters who couldn't make it past the stream of blue lasers that traveled past Final Destination's length and were fired almost as fast as Fox's lasers... Why? And Falco Phantasm basically gave Falco one of the best burst movement in Smash... and they nerfed Fox Illusion... Why?

What do you do when something is FUBAR'd? You remove everything FUBAR'd. That for Falco was his Dair, Blaster, Falco Phantasm, and by extension of the game's mechanic, his D-throw... Oh, and for good measure, let's also screw up his jab - The hell was wrong with this in Brawl? -, dash attack - Gee, sure, let the 4th fastest runner have access to a frame 4 dash attack while Falco, a slow runner, has his startup doubled -, Side Smash - Why the extra frame of startup? Why? -, Bair, and not fix Nair and Fire Bird. They knew, judging from Falco's ridiculously strong Bair, that he had trouble killing not racking up damage, but killing. Well, moves got stronger, some in damage, some in knockback, and some in both. What was the problem with this was that they weren't fixing things; they were removing things. Blaster? Why does Fox have his 64 Blaster as a custom? You all know how problematic his Blaster was in Melee and Brawl when he could continually fire, so why didn't you make it more like "traditional, fighting game" projectiles that could only be fired once? Y'know, like how Cloud, Luigi, Mario, the Pits, Ryu, and Wolf's was? Nah, let's butcher the hell out of this move making it borderline useless for fighting at range. Falco using his Blaster in this game is not baiting an approach, it's ticking you off to run up and Falcon Punch the ***. There's also the irony that Brawl got Dair right in terms of damage, but Smash 4 decided it was a great idea to homogenize his Dair... Almost all Dairs are the same thing while other moves aren't. They come in different flavors even subtly while Dairs are mostly slow, situational spikes with the few unique ones that aren't spikes or are fast, usable spikes. Knowing that Wolf isn't coming back for Smash 4, Falco should have been given not just his Fire Wolf because Fire Bird is a pathetic excuse of a move, but Wolf Flash. Why? Because Falco Phantasm is too difficult to balance. Think about it; Falco Phantasm has the largest spike hitbox in the game. It's weak and telegraphed, but imagine in FFA or 2v2 and up. Things get chaotic and a spike with that kind of hitbox? A nightmare to balance. Didn't help they made it even more powerful in Brawl. Instead of halving the hitbox and animating it in a way where Falco's arm is going to get clipped, they should have just slapped Wolf Flash onto him. Wolf Flash is easier to balance when it only has a specific spot where it will spike while the rest just does some hit stun. Sure, Falco might gain access to a Dtilt to Falco Flash 50/50 at best and a kill confirm at worst, but that's only in 1v1 and when he's alone. In FFA and 2v2? Falco would need to be on point while everything else is trying to kill him.

They should have turned Falco into a character who specializes in Star KO potential. This would have been a good change, since he has great combos and his normals are excellent. But they murdered that when they changed his Uair. Now he's just mediocre at everything.

Now you just beat someone up and fish for a Bair, Dsmash or some offstage Fair/Nair gimp...which is dangerous to Falco because his recovery is complete trash. Again, one of the worst of its type.

Spoiler: More Falco BS

Star KO or vertical kills was always Fox's thing since 64. Fox was all about killing off the top while Falco was supposed to be the inverse which explains why Reflector hits up rather than down, Dair is single-hit that spikes than a multi-hit that launches up, and why Falco Phantasm exists. The problem with that aside from Melee having higher fall speed than in other Smash games is that almost every character finds it difficult to recovery that low. From up top to the sides is way easier when you can drift back to the stage. From below? You better hope you can jump high and have a far traveling vertical recovery move. Poor character design choice in my opinion and it's their fault for giving him that image, but it's not like they cared when each Falco plays differently than other characters.

One thing that I noticed as I read your post: why do you think that Uair's change screwed him over? You think that's a problem? If you read this far, then you should know Falco has larger problems and Uair isn't one. Even before 1.0.8, Uair wasn't a strong kill tool for Falco. Uair in previous games was never a strong kill tool for Falco unless he was high up; Bair and Dair were. If it killed anywhere near Fox's, then we'd be having a problem since Falco jumps much higher than Fox. Melee Falco had the luxury of confirming Bair and a strong Dair, but Brawl Falco? Fished for Bairs just like Smash 4 Falco, but Brawl Falco could setup Dair, except it was much weaker than in Melee and Smash 4. Down Smash was a day one, Melee to now, desperate kill for Falco. Hell, Brawl Falco when out of options Ftilted people to death. That's how stupid Falco. Nair and Fair aren't dangerous for Falco when you don't want to challenge him 'cause auto-link spike shenanigans and the worst that could happen is he dies and has to start over which he gives absolutely no ***** about unlike characters like, I don't know, Lucina, and Sheik. Yes, Sheik being a stock behind is difficult for her. Falco couldn't give a damn if he started the match with 1 stock while his opponent started with 2. Falco will kill you and he has no issues about doing so. Now, if neither character dies, then it's back to the fight. Best case is he will kill you, gimp you, or put more damage on you and there's little risk when you're afraid, trying to get back on-stage, and in doing so, Falco might already be at the ledge ready to take you out again.

Edit: Actually relevant stuff below.

Doesn't she seem to lunge farther in that screenshot?

Well, this is what Melee Sheik Fair looks like in action.

Going with this image,

The way she's hitting is definitely different. Noticeable with her legs which are more lax rather than up like in Melee. If I were to make an comparison, it would be that Melee Sheik's Fair is more like Smash 4 Roy's Fair while Smash 4 Sheik's Fair is more like Marth's. What do I mean by this? Roy, because of his reverse grip, swings his sword closer to his body like how Melee Sheik is chopping closer to her body while Marth, using a normal grip, can swing out more which for Smash 4 Sheik, just involves leaning in a bit more and extending her arm which almost looks like she could accidentally hyper-extend her elbow, but we won't speak of that considering ZSS's Side Smash and her spine...

Roy's Fair is like so.

Marth's Fair is like so.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Apparently, Roy swings normally with Fair...

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm still surprised the Pits aren't more popular secondaries. Still very easy to learn outside of some awkwardness on Uspecial and covers a lot of matchups... Rosa, Ryu and MK off the top of my head seem neutral at least.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm still surprised the Pits aren't more popular secondaries. Still very easy to learn outside of some awkwardness on Uspecial and covers a lot of matchups... Rosa, Ryu and MK off the top of my head seem neutral at least.

Don't know about MK, but I agree with you on Rosalina (for Dark Pit) and Ryu. I think Ryu is interesting because he's got a great neutral and the insane punish game, but Pit's neutral is solid enough to keep up and disjoints work well in his favour. Three out of five aerials being multi-hits (to deal with FA in neutral and stuff FADC approaches) helps too.

I wish I had more firsthand experience with this matchup - I've played it a few times, but it'd be great to have material to study too. Does anybody know if there have been any good Pit / Ryu matches besides Earth's set with 9B?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm still surprised the Pits aren't more popular secondaries. Still very easy to learn outside of some awkwardness on Uspecial and covers a lot of matchups... Rosa, Ryu and MK off the top of my head seem neutral at least.

First time in a while that I'm posting in this thread... I just I may as well give my two cents.

I can actually agree. The Pits are kinda like all-rounders in their design, and their matchup spread is pretty damn good. I can definitely MK having trouble vs Pits, though if I had to say MK would have the slight edge in that MU depending on the stage.