C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
The issue with mages is that even in their home genre, they tend to be either the best class or among the worst. In Smash it's usually the later.
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Still better than most Wii Fit commentary where it seems like the commentator 1. acts like when the character does anything impressive it's a total fluke, 2. acts like the character is a joke character and is just meant to embarrass your opponent or 3. knows nothing about the character as if it wasn't one of the very first newcomers revealed.Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.
He won't go to EVO either, he'll be blocked by a wall.so is MK Leo not going to genesis 3?
makes sense, he's only like 14 iirc
Right, right....That's...not quite what he meant.
Consider a cast of 1000 characters. Assume they are all perfectly balanced.
Let the top 32 players of a national tournament each use 3 characters. Suppose there is no overlap in character usage.
32 * 3 = 96 characters used.
96 / 1000 = 9.6% roster representation.
Oh.Now, less than 10% of the roster being used sounds bad. But our first statement said the cast was perfectly balanced. Therefore, it's clear that looking at what percent of the roster is visible in top 32 placings (or top 64, or top 16, or whatever number floats your boat) of a given tournament cannot comprise the entirety of an argument for or against character balance by itself. Especially when the roster is large enough that it is literally impossible for top X placings to include more than a fraction of the cast.
Super Smash Flash 2 managed to make Zelda high tier. Pretty much a buffed Brawl Zelda. Din's Fire activates and travels more quickly and doesn't go into freefall, Lighting Kicks are pretty much like Melee, U-air is a bit quicker, D-smash is stronger and her U-throw and D-throw can combo into Kicks (as well as U-air in U-throw's case). That's mostly it. All Zelda really needs is simple adjustments to Din's Fire and Lightning Kicks to become a threat.
I mean, those would work. But I think we know why Ninty wouldn't, and hasn't, implemented these...When we say "Make Zelda better," are we saying make her mid tier or make her high tier? I don't think it takes too much to push her into the middle of the pack. Having her outdo Sonic or whoever is a different story.
As everyone else has mentoned, Zelda is a mage archetype, someone with powerful hitboxes who is weak when up close. For that reason, I'd probably go with some combination of the following buffs:
Bigger hitboxes on magic-based moves. These things should be difficult to avoid if caught in the wrong situation. For example, Zelda's forward tilt is actually friggin' powerful, and kills pretty damn early for a forward tilt. However, it has no range. If it could work like Ganondorf's own f-tilt, as a kill move that the opponent has to be extremely wary of at high percents, it would serve more of a purpose.
Less recovery on Smash Attacks and perhaps other moves. Basically give her some more Meta Knight F-smash type attacks. This doesn't mean that she's a speedster now, but it gives her stuff to throw out in neutral without being too scared of retaliation.
Indestructible Phantom Knight. Other people suggest being able to store it, but I like the idea of not being able to break it down more. It would emphasize the Phantom Knight as a zoning tool, eating up territory and making the opponent's movement more predictable, allowing you to, say, catch them with Din's Fire or something.
Stronger kill throw(s). If psychics can have cool kill throws, why not a magician? I do believe one of her throws (back? forward?) is decently potent, but if she had a scarier one it could work well with the fact that opponents are encouraged to shield against her due to Up B. The threat of the death throw then instead sets up for elevator kills.
If you're going to measure viability as a percent then use the same percent in both games. You should be comparing Melee's top 8s to SSB4's top 16s, roughly.Right, right....
Oh.
I mean that's cute, if your roster was 1000 characters large, but 1) that's never going to happen and 2) you aren't avoiding the bigger issue of the cast being 90% garbage characters. Of course, if you have more viable characters available than are practically possible to ever be used simultaneously, you CAN argue that's good...for the competitive community. Of course the method is going to break down if you have such an absurd amount of characters, but it doesn't change anything. You'd still have a massive character select screen where, upon picking a character you find attractive, you have a 90% chance of picking an unviable.
Likewise, using the 1-character example is an equally crappy hypothetical, such a small size in a fighting game is convenient only for the sake of character balance and no community would ever entertain it.
That ridiculous 96/1000 hypothetical is still assuming an awful lot, like that the community was able to objectively rate 1000 characters against one another enough to even make the ratio...something that is (clearly) very possible in a 40-50 character roster but is pretty has no equivalent precedent for a number as ******** as 1000 and almost certainly would either never happen or take decades, even in 2016.
TL;DR yeah no, the % viability method still works perfectly fine for real life. All the other logic holes aside, you're taking the destination and throwing out the journey, which is whole reason the viability issue is an issue to begin with.
Idk how much of this is serious, but the obvious answer to this is that fun is hella subjective. In defense of zelda being fun (because there's no denying that she's very bad), I think her footsies are pretty fun in most matchups. Sure, absolutely nothing is free, but that means you have to actually work for your kill. You can't really jump in with a sheik fair or MK dash attack, but instead you throw out safe pokes in grounded normals like jab and dtilt (you know, similarly to what footsies are like in most fighting games) and follow up accordingly. Her combo game isn't that terrible at early percents. Jab and dtilt often lead to grabs, with dthrow > nair > fair/bair/jump or airdodge read being a pretty reliable thing.Zelda? Bad in all games. It's actually surprising since she's just not fun nor rewarding to play with at all; Zelda's clunky and very punishable while requiring a ton of precision for moves that in any mode, would be stressful and difficult to land. Oh, and if you flub them? You're not Marth or Roy; you're getting pitiful hits that would make a staled Sheik look like a killer. Compare this to Triple D who's humorous to play as, Kirby who's this cute puffball, or Ganondorf where hits count and they're freaking hilarious when you can boot someone from one end to the other end like you were playing tennis. I mean, why does this character even exist than to fill a slot as Princess Zelda?
I'd also add maybe reducing the end lag on her aerials and maybe rework Uair and/or Bair to be good options. I really don't like that Zelda is a floaty without reliable aerials - if you're in the air longer, your moveset should probably be made with that in mind by giving you some power. But in a "reliable" way, not "Give her Falcon's Knee on every aerial except her Nair"Zelda:
+The ability to hold Phantom Slash
+Large damage and knockback buff for Phantom
+Significantly reduced startup and end lag on Din's Fire
+No freefall after using Din's Fire
+Reduced end lag on Naryu's Love
+Reworked throws that allow for Lightning Kick combos
If only @Kaladin was still here with his Trump avatarHe won't go to EVO either, he'll be blocked by a wall.
Bolded colored part is what I'm having an issue with, because it indirectly implies that for any size roster N, M characters are automatically unviable for no other reason than (N - 32) = M. That is, if you only care about characters that place top 32, then it implies there can be at most 32 viable characters in a game. That does not follow.I mean that's cute, if your roster was 1000 characters large, but 1) that's never going to happen and 2) you aren't avoiding the bigger issue of the cast being 90% garbage characters. Of course, if you have more viable characters available than are practically possible to ever be used simultaneously, you CAN argue that's good...for the competitive community. Of course the method is going to break down if you have such an absurd amount of characters, but it doesn't change anything. You'd still have a massive character select screen where, upon picking a character you find attractive, you have a 90% chance of picking an unviable.
This is very true. And it's painful. It's probably because balancing characters around extremes almost always results in extreme reactions. Also straddling that line between "too defensively weak" and "too unfairly powerful" is hard to get right.The issue with mages is that even in their home genre, they tend to be either the best class or among the worst. In Smash it's usually the later.
Actually, Zelda doesn't really need anything too massive to make her a good character. Simply giving her auto cancels on her aerials would boost her well out of the bottom tier spot alone.A complete goddessdamned overhaul. Other characters like... everyone else only need tweaks and they're much better or better functioning.
Is this not the point of using analogies and making arguments? If the exercise fails under more rigorous testing, then the theory can not hold. Trying to separate it into real life vs theory is silly because % viability in regards to tournament position is simply one of different theories in trying to comprehend the balance of a game.I mean that's cute, if your roster was 1000 characters large, but 1) that's never going to happen and 2) you aren't avoiding the bigger issue of the cast being 90% garbage characters. Of course, if you have more viable characters available than are practically possible to ever be used simultaneously, you CAN argue that's good...for the competitive community. Of course the method is going to break down if you have such an absurd amount of characters, but it doesn't change anything. You'd still have a massive character select screen where, upon picking a character you find attractive, you have a 90% chance of picking an unviable.
Likewise, using the 1-character example is an equally crappy hypothetical, such a small size in a fighting game is convenient only for the sake of character balance and no community would ever entertain it.
That ridiculous 96/1000 hypothetical is still assuming an awful lot, like that the community was able to objectively rate 1000 characters against one another enough to even make the ratio...something that is (clearly) very possible in a 40-50 character roster but has no equivalent precedent for a number as ******** as 1000 and almost certainly would either never happen or take decades, even in 2016.
I laughed when I saw MD/VA... I don't think Japan is going to be a complete blowout though. All four have a solid chance of winning.These crews just go to illustrate how lopsided the distribution of talent is between "regions" (however conceived) even now. Japan is obviously the favorite to win, followed by Tristate, then Florida and SoCal. The other teams, to put it bluntly, don't stand a chance. It's too bad, the event will still be hype and all, but not as much as it would be if the competition was more level.
Are you still on this? It wasn't true in the pre-shieldstun patch days and it still isn't. As people adjusted to the way shields and rolls work in this game, they learned how to execute an effective offense.Case in point? Zelda was doomed to fail in Smash 4 for the simple fact that rolls and shields pretty much invalidate all offensive pressure.
The next time I commentate a match with Shulk in it, I'm going to tell everyone things like, "Jump mode also makes Shulk temporarily vegan, and eating any food items with meat or dairy in them will damage him instead of healing him."Hey at least I'm not a shulk main.
Ohhhhhhhhh, nononono.Bolded colored part is what I'm having an issue with, because it indirectly implies that for any size roster N, M characters are automatically unviable for no other reason than (N - 32) = M. That is, if you only care about characters that place top 32, then it implies there can be at most 32 viable characters in a game. That does not follow.
(You can substitute 32 with 16 or 64 or whatever. It's a placeholder.)
Well...analogies are useful for some things, not so much for others. Hell, even the most basic and rigid concepts fail when you try to stretch them to extreme lengths.Is this not the point of using analogies and making arguments? If the exercise fails under more rigorous testing, then the theory can not hold. Trying to separate it into real life vs theory is silly because % viability in regards to tournament position is simply one of different theories in trying to comprehend the balance of a game.
You don't even have to go quite as far.
Say there are two games:
Game 1 has 64 characters. Varying degrees of viability amongst the cast, but top 32 is filled with 20 unique characters, with no character appearing more than twice. Our % viability is around 30%.
Game 2 has 5 characters. One of them takes up 2/3 of top 32 and is clearly much stronger than the rest. The remaining top 32 is filled by the other four characters. In this scenario, % viability is 100%, even though one clearly dominates the rest and the game can not really be seen as balanced.
Using top 32/top 8 appearances is simply one metric we can use to rate viability and compare balance across games. It can not be the major one.
....and this still does nothing to counteract the things certain characters lost as a result of the change. It simply shifts the meta in a different direction.Are you still on this? It wasn't true in the pre-shieldstun patch days and it still isn't. As people adjusted to the way shields and rolls work in this game, they learned how to execute an effective offense.
Another reason why it's a shame Leo couldn't come; if he was there Mexico's crew would be a lot stronger. Still sad about this, I was looking forward to him proving his doubters wrong. At least he still has plenty of time to do so considering he's so young.These crews just go to illustrate how lopsided the distribution of talent is between "regions" (however conceived) even now. Japan is obviously the favorite to win, followed by Tristate, then Florida and SoCal. The other teams, to put it bluntly, don't stand a chance. It's too bad, the event will still be hype and all, but not as much as it would be if the competition was more level.
Then I seem to have misinterpreted your argument entirely. My apologies.*snip*
He also has a pretty ridiculous Cloud.[...] Rain being way up there for Sheik too.
Like i mentioned, i noticed shortly afterwards that i did miss the "all 1000 are perfectly balanced" and kept going anyway....so yeeeaahh that was probably all my fault.Then I seem to have misinterpreted your argument entirely. My apologies.
I'd replace Lucas with Pacman. And pooosssibly toon link with Megaman.Who would you guys say are the three best defensive characters in the game? I'd go with:
- multiple projectiles, long range aerials, multiple shield options, several attacks that double as reliable shield options, a kill throw, a good set up throw, two close range tilts that can kill, fast jab, fast ftilt, several decent shield break options, several trumps, fantastic ledge stall options, fantastic edge guard options
- a good keep away projectile, a zair, fast tilts, fast jab, good set up throw, technically two kill throws, good ledge stalling options, a reflector, an absorb option
- good keep away projectiles, a zair, good set ups out of bomb/boomerang knock back, good set up throw, a kill throw, bombs are multifunctional, good jab, ftilt, and utilt
Spoiler At the north pole, which direction is "north"?
In space, which way is "up"?
How fast is your car moving? The earth? The sun? The milky way?
Considering electromagnetism and nuclear forces, how does anything "touch" anything else?
How could you forget our favorite space princess ?Who would you guys say are the three best defensive characters in the game? I'd go with:
- multiple projectiles, long range aerials, multiple shield options, several attacks that double as reliable shield options, a kill throw, a good set up throw, two close range tilts that can kill, fast jab, fast ftilt, several decent shield break options, several trumps, fantastic ledge stall options, fantastic edge guard options
- a good keep away projectile, a zair, fast tilts, fast jab, good set up throw, technically two kill throws, good ledge stalling options, a reflector, an absorb option
- good keep away projectiles, a zair, good set ups out of bomb/boomerang knock back, good set up throw, a kill throw, bombs are multifunctional, good jab, ftilt, and utilt
I wouldn't classify Bowser Jr. as defensive at all, lol. You aren't outzoning anyone with Clown Cannon and Mechakoopa. He has good, meaty attacks but his combo game is just too good for a defensive character.A lot of the "defensive minded" characters have been doomed to the low tier because of the odd philosophy the developers had while making them.
Losing Ray is a big blow.Guys, I bet you guys that Midwest will take the crown. Don't sleep on the laziest region.
Ah yes the annoying white children.Who would you guys say are the three best defensive characters in the game? I'd go with:
- multiple projectiles, long range aerials, multiple shield options, several attacks that double as reliable shield options, a kill throw, a good set up throw, two close range tilts that can kill, fast jab, fast ftilt, several decent shield break options, several trumps, fantastic ledge stall options, fantastic edge guard options
- a good keep away projectile, a zair, fast tilts, fast jab, good set up throw, technically two kill throws, good ledge stalling options, a reflector, an absorb option
- good keep away projectiles, a zair, good set ups out of bomb/boomerang knock back, good set up throw, a kill throw, bombs are multifunctional, good jab, ftilt, and utilt
Defensive characters aren't allowed to have combos/a good combo game?I wouldn't classify Bowser Jr. as defensive at all, lol. You aren't outzoning anyone with Clown Cannon and Mechakoopa. He has good, meaty attacks but his combo game is just too good for a defensive character.
I'm actually looking foward to Leo-less México. And some Ness play that doesn't end with a Gravitational gimp.Another reason why it's a shame Leo couldn't come; if he was there Mexico's crew would be a lot stronger. Still sad about this, I was looking forward to him proving his doubters wrong. At least he still has plenty of time to do so considering he's so young.
Japan is so stacked, if 9B and Rain are on point I don't see their team losing. Ranai, 9B, Komo and Aba are all the best players of their characters in the world, with Rain being way up there for Sheik too.