Challenger Approaching: His Prescription? KOs

[The Cape]

I gave Doc different physics, which gives him a higher second jump (and therefore helps his recovery). The upB is stronger, but a shorter distance. Its still overall a pretty decent recovery, and I really dont see a reason why Doc would need a ridiculous recovery. We are trying to make a different Mario, not one that makes him completely obsolete (see Melee).

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I gave Doc different physics, which gives him a higher second jump (and therefore helps his recovery). The upB is stronger, but a shorter distance. Its still overall a pretty decent recovery, and I really dont see a reason why Doc would need a ridiculous recovery. We are trying to make a different Mario, not one that makes him completely obsolete (see Melee).

I think there's a way to cause a move to spawn an item, and to change the physics or something... but whatever.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I gave Doc different physics, which gives him a higher second jump (and therefore helps his recovery). The upB is stronger, but a shorter distance. Its still overall a pretty decent recovery, and I really dont see a reason why Doc would need a ridiculous recovery. We are trying to make a different Mario, not one that makes him completely obsolete (see Melee).

I also don't mean for his recovery to sound great enough to make him sound like a "superior" Mario. It's just not fair when his recovery can be so terrible and other people, like Meta Knight, can have a good recovery AND gimping abilities ={

Good to hear though. I'll try this new Doc soon. I'll tell ya what I think as well. It might be in a few hours though, haha.

Oh, and just wondering, but did you get the hatless Mario and white cape textures to work successfully?

 

[goodoldganon]

Played a little Doc so I could help you out pal. I'd rather he have more power too, but it seems you are doing the right thing really. Doc was just an all around superior Mario. I'd rather have kept Mario as the gimp master of the two cause no one knows Mario for his stellar KO game. Frankly, it seems like you traded Mario's lol kill potential and just gave him a mad good gimp game, something he was already good at. My 2 cents there.

Either way, Doc is a lot of fun but he didn't really feel very Doc like to me. Roy has the gravity and SHFF game from Melee, but this Doc just felt like something a little odd. Gravity felt close to good, but the lack of a true Anarchy Punch hurts (F-air) my original perception. Also, the new D-air in Brawl throws me off. Doc's was a lot more powerful then Mario's and wasn't used to combo. Nothing wrong with giving him a new move, I'm just saying...

The 'pills' don't feel right, and frankly are a little too good at stopping recoveries. Good pill placement can basically block the edge against most of the cast and recovering high on Doc/Mario is just asking to get B-air'd or worse caped. Fludd also feels really out of place, but considering we can't really change that, what you did with it was a good.

Overall, as I said, he's a whole lot of fun to play as and though he has issues (as do all of these new characters when they first come out) it's still a solid start. I'd try and get into contact with someone like Bob $ or other good Doc players to try and get their opinion on Doc. I got lucky and Neko hooked me up with Sethlon.

 

[Shell]

Doc is way fun...

I only had a chance to play around with Doc against CPUs tonight, so take this with a spoonful of salt:

Despite you efforts to avoid the Melee problem of Doc outclassing most of Mario's game, it seems like in the end that's what happened.

Combos - Doc's combos are different than Mario's, but at least as good... possibly better. As you demonstrated, bair to grab is nifty, and Uair combos like gold until previously unheard of (for Mario) percents. The u-tilt and the dair don't have as much combo potential, true, but the core of his combo game, Uair and d-throw overshadow these slight loses. Also, dash attack is nuts. Since it makes you trip you can do pretty much anything out of it, including grab, d-throw, continue combo.

Recovery - We're stilling planing on nerfing Doc's cape's recovery a little with the help of Almas's custom gravity code at some point. Still, his recovery isn't terribly worse thanks to the increases in jump height.

Killing - Doc's killing options seem to require mostly higher percents than Mario, but they're more consistent and easy to land, which I think ultimately becomes more important. Mario's f-smash killed many characters around 90-something depending on stage location and DI, but it required you to usually mindgame into it a little due to it's start up time -- Doc's comes out fast and is balanced with low range, killing at higher percents. Overall this move is fine. D-throw to Fair is a pretty awesome killer, though, and the KB of his Up-B in the air made for some rather low percent ceiling kills (106% on Peach middle of the screen), although this is probably mostly due to a lack of DI. Overall I actually prefer Doc's KO options (>.<)

Gimping - Bair >> FLUDD, in my opinion. The Fair was a mediocre meteor at best, and its loss isn't too significant. The larger cape size also helps in staying safe while taking out recoveries.

Projectiles - 8% semi-spiking Darkness Ball >>> Normal Fireball, obviously. I know we want to change this.

Right now I just don't see a ton of reason to use Mario, other than some alternative combo options, a sliiiiighly better recovery, and the chance to mindgame your way into some stronger (but much more situational) kill moves.

==============

Here are some changes I'd like to see:

-Uair -- 8 or 9 damage from 11 (adjust KB to be the same as before)

-Bair -- 9 damage from 12 (adjust KB to be the same as before)

-If you really don't want to decrease these damages, then you need to lower the KBG of the Fair

-F-smash +5ish frames of cooldown for sure, maybe change it to 3 frames removed from startup

-The 60% ALR is barely noticeable, maybe increase this to 70%

-Fair needs it's SFX changed to something a lot meatier

-Lower Up-B's KB on last hit a little

-The dash attack's actual downwards KB is too strong. A Lucas at 35ish percent was hit with it at the ledge and dropped just past the bottom of FD before he could Up-B. Also, the dash attack might let you infinitely trip them on the stage, possibly requiring more cooldown.

-I dunno if the >100% ledge attack needs to trip.

-----
The theme of the feedback is that in your plan the main thing Doc was supposed to sacrifice was KO power, and some recovery. I don't think that his KO power is weakened at all, and you yourself said that it's better "in his own way." It's more consistent, which I find better, and in some cases actually lower than many of his old options (Up-B?) The recovery, even with the eventual cape nerf won't be too much worse. Thus, he either needs to give up some damage, or give up more KO power.

We'll talk about this on IRC sometime tomorrow.

 

[crazycrackers]

Played a little Doc so I could help you out pal. I'd rather he have more power too, but it seems you are doing the right thing really. Doc was just an all around superior Mario. I'd rather have kept Mario as the gimp master of the two cause no one knows Mario for his stellar KO game. Frankly, it seems like you traded Mario's lol kill potential and just gave him a mad good gimp game, something he was already good at. My 2 cents there.

Either way, Doc is a lot of fun but he didn't really feel very Doc like to me. Roy has the gravity and SHFF game from Melee, but this Doc just felt like something a little odd. Gravity felt close to good, but the lack of a true Anarchy Punch hurts (F-air) my original perception. Also, the new D-air in Brawl throws me off. Doc's was a lot more powerful then Mario's and wasn't used to combo. Nothing wrong with giving him a new move, I'm just saying...

The 'pills' don't feel right, and frankly are a little too good at stopping recoveries. Good pill placement can basically block the edge against most of the cast and recovering high on Doc/Mario is just asking to get B-air'd or worse caped. Fludd also feels really out of place, but considering we can't really change that, what you did with it was a good.

Overall, as I said, he's a whole lot of fun to play as and though he has issues (as do all of these new characters when they first come out) it's still a solid start. I'd try and get into contact with someone like Bob $ or other good Doc players to try and get their opinion on Doc. I got lucky and Neko hooked me up with Sethlon.

I agree with everything here, especially the first two paragraphs. I'd happily trade Doc's superior gimps so that he could kill better. Besides, what SHeLL said about Doc vs. Mario's killing is pretty true. Fireballs/pills/whatever you want to call them are being adjusted by the way.

I also don't mean for his recovery to sound great enough to make him sound like a "superior" Mario. It's just not fair when his recovery can be so terrible and other people, like Meta Knight, can have a good recovery AND gimping abilities ={

We're not trying to make another Meta Knight -.-

 

[camelot]

OK, I've tried changing the water/fireball colors, and I guess I'm doing something wrong, 'cause it's not working. I'm not very good with ASH. I've changed effects on Link/Toon Link (sword slashes and arrow trails), but the effects for Mario I can't get to work. Sorry folks.

I am at least working on the Doc texture. Give me some suggestions, I'll see what I can do.

 

[timothyung]

Are Mario's textures mirrored? And you can try to make the buttons on his coat, the pockets, etc
Melee Doc textures:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/other_systems/ssbm/sheet/1597

 

[camelot]

The only things on him that aren't mirrored are his hat and a small part of his overalls (from his waist to his thighs methinks)

 

[Dragonrage]

OK, I've tried changing the water/fireball colors, and I guess I'm doing something wrong, 'cause it's not working. I'm not very good with ASH. I've changed effects on Link/Toon Link (sword slashes and arrow trails), but the effects for Mario I can't get to work. Sorry folks.

I am at least working on the Doc texture. Give me some suggestions, I'll see what I can do.

I've been loking through his effect files recently myself. Did you find any hints of his fireball? All I could find was that generic fire traces and some monocrhome textures that probably handle some of the water effects. I believe the water color is stored in WpnMarioPumpWaterRegular.CLR0 but I'm not good with hex so I wouldn't know where to start looking.

 

[camelot]

...but I'm not good with hex so I wouldn't know where to start looking.

Me neither.

 

[GamenerdAdvance]

Is it possible to mix and match moves from different movesets with all of this new character modifying business? Because personally I think, for the sake of consistency, it'd be nice to see Dr. Mario modified to have Luigi's down B and down Aerial, so that Dr. Mario retains consistency with his Melee character. Other suggestions I'd make are to remove his hat (which can be quite easily done with a little code). Also, would it be at all possible to replace the fireball texture with a texture of a pill, and giving it some sort of solid sounding impact sound? It would look a bit tacky seeing Mario throwing flat pills, but it's better than nothing, in my opinion.

Again, I'm just spitting out ideas here. I have nearly no hacking knowledge, so I don't know what's within the realm of possibility and what isn't. Ideally Dr. Mario would retain his complete likeness to his model in Melee, but that much I know is impossible until model hacking becomes possible (or mainstream, at least).

 

[Shaya]

Couldn't ... in theory... the down air have it's frame data editted to be quite 'crazy'?

Like the hitbox around his hands reduced to 0 damage, 0 base, 0 kgb, etc etc;
legs hitbox 'suped up' so to speak to cover this change.
And the frame data appropriately sped up and slowed down at certain intervals to maximise the look of it hitting at his legs rather than a tornado? (is it possible to increase a frame to 'infinite' speed so to speak (i.e. unnoticed)?)

Otherwise, taking something from smash 64 Luigi... make his down air a kill move at the hands at startup!

Pichu? Make him have aura like Lucario + self-damaging = something potentially amazing (lol).

Replacing down B probably wouldn't work to well....

 

[GamenerdAdvance]

Replacing down B probably wouldn't work to well....

Yeah, I've heard that altering B moves is alot more troublesome and unreliable. Still, I find that his spin was one of Dr. Mario's defining moves, and I wouldn't like to see it go anywhere, even if they have to half-*** it.

 

[ArveeOnFire]

Is there a version with both Roy and Doc?

 

[exfatal]

i was thinking that instead of making Doc's cape turn the enemy around it should trip them, i think that would diffinetly set those too apart and open alot of potential for the doc. also over the edge it should spike them or at least a small spike. (u can still keep it to turn them around but not sure how that would work.) please try it out and tell me what u think? cause i think it be a cool edition to docs game. but then again wouldnt want him to over power the original plumber we no and love

 

[goodoldganon]

As of now, we can't swap moves around amongst the cast. I can't give Roy Ike's neutral B. I haven't tested it but CAM might allow us to swap moves around in the moveset, or it could bug out the whole game. I'm talking like making Ike's F-smash his F-tilt and making it chargeable. Hopefully that makes sense. It's something I'm gonna look into when I get back.

 

[RPGsFTW]

We're not trying to make another Meta Knight -.-

Which I said that I don't want to happen =P

Hopefully a lot of careful decisions will be thought upon IF Doc ever gets a finish planned. I, as well as others, think that he is still better than Mario =P

My thoughts from he most recent Doc:
-I don't think his dash attack should trip. Especially always trip if they're not offstage or so.
-He feels, to me, like he can build damage, and outright kill, better than Mario.
-It's probably really bad that his fireballs can semi-spike, especually when they can hit offstage opponents so easily.

I don't know if I could say much more about him, other then he feels like a "superior" Mario to me again.

 

[leafgreen386]

As of now, we can't swap moves around amongst the cast. I can't give Roy Ike's neutral B. I haven't tested it but CAM might allow us to swap moves around in the moveset, or it could bug out the whole game. I'm talking like making Ike's F-smash his F-tilt and making it chargeable. Hopefully that makes sense. It's something I'm gonna look into when I get back.

Switching a tilt and a smash would simply give you a chargeable tilt and a non-chargeable smash. It becomes the new ID.

Individual move moveswapping will probably eventually be possible (by code or otherwise), but it has to be looked into. I know that to make some chars it will be an absolute requirement, but... we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

 

[crazycrackers]

My only problem with Dr. Mario is that he unfortunately seems rather superior to Mario. Mario has a slightly better recovery distance and thats it. Doc combos are different, but are looking better. He gimps better than Mario, and while Mario has more kill potential, Doc's kill moves are more practical. The problem with even giving Doc a less kill-oriented moveset in exchange for better gimps is that Mario's game is primarily based on edgeguarding/gimping over killing. If we want to make a different, not completely superior clone to Mario, why don't we make Doc better at killing and worse at gimps?

 

[goodoldganon]

My only problem with Dr. Mario is that he unfortunately seems rather superior to Mario. Mario has a slightly better recovery distance and thats it. Doc combos are different, but are looking better. He gimps better than Mario, and while Mario has more kill potential, Doc's kill moves are more practical. The problem with even giving Doc a less kill-oriented moveset in exchange for better gimps is that Mario's game is primarily based on edgeguarding/gimping over killing. If we want to make a different, not completely superior clone to Mario, why don't we make Doc better at killing and worse at gimps?

Exactly my point, just worded in a different way.

No one thinks of Mario as a serious killer. All of his kill moves are situational and require odd setups or abnormal sweetspots. Doc just takes what made Mario good, improves upon that, and then weakens what Mario was already just sub-par at.

Mario is a gimping/combo/edgeguarding character. Doc should have shorter combos that do similar damage and more kill potential.

 

[timothyung]

Hmm maybe make his cape have quite a bit of horizontal knockback, but no flinching/turning? Or change it to a wind hitbox?
Maybe his SPEW can have no knockback at all, but racks a lot of damage, like Fox's lasers but more laggy.
Yeah, make him kill better but gimp worse, that will separate doc from Mario.

 

[Shell]

Cape and I have agreed that right now this Doc is better than Mario in nearly every way.

We are looking into reconstructing Doc more towards killing and less gimping while not overshadowing Mario. Feel free to brainstorm ways you would create a Doc along these lines.

I suggest you save your feedback on this currently outdated and overpowered (but way fun) Doc specifically until we can get a newer version out.

 

[Shaya]

Well, take Doc's tornado idea from SMASH64 Luigi .
His forward air could easily be Melee Docs/Smash64's Marios.

Orientate his combo game to grounded moves, over aerial moves; Mario has a large usage for bair/uair chains; perhaps make them more 'juggle moves' rather than combo ones (highish base, lowish growth)
Is it possible to make Doc's "flood" similar to zero suit's dsmash? Instead of it being some sort of plague/minor damage thing; if it's possible to give that effect to it... ("reflex testing" -> lol).

To complement a ground based combo game and aerial 'juggle game'
Dash attack as a 'tech' creator (270 degree angle?), over tripping.
....

The way I see my idea as 'potential' is:
Doc's moves hit hard from the start, to allow juggles but not really having them kill.
Doc's "reflex tester" ala Fludd forcing that unique stun at a long range covers the ground for those escaping his juggles
Dash attack usable as something similar but for closer encounters.
Most moves fling upwards, yet all his kill moves are horizontal (fair, nair, fsmash)

Take away his tripping; if anything I'd give those things to Mario; but not at 100% chance...

 

[CloneHat]

Oh yah, in case you didn't notice Cape, Doc 1.5 uses the BRoom set.

Thanks, I love my double jump cancel and untechable choke!

 

[Wolf of Ice]

lol, cool. Thanks, Cape.

 

[Roxas215]

Doc was better then mario in every way in melee. Why shouldn't it be the same now. I for one think any char that relies more on gimps then outright killing is a way more fun char to play as. Besides if these chars aren't actually going to be tournament viable then who cares if doc is better? Doc is well a Doc mario is a plumber. Life already chose which one is better. lol

 

[Boo Mansion]

Doc was better then mario in every way in melee. Why shouldn't it be the same now. I for one think any char that relies more on gimps then outright killing is a way more fun char to play as. Besides if these chars aren't actually going to be tournament viable then who cares if doc is better? Doc is well a Doc mario is a plumber. Life already chose which one is better. lol

That would pretty much render Mario useless. In that scenario why not replace Mario rather than include Dr. Mario alongside him? I think both Mario and Dr. Mario need their own balance of pros and cons. I also think the majority of us want to see the Doc make it into Brawl+ once the clone code is completed.

If it ever gets to the point where we can change individual moves, I vote in giving a modified Luigi Cyclone to replace his down B. Cape, would you consider that if it becomes possible? (I believe we'll figure it out at some point) For now the medical waste thing works.


Also, I was thinking. Instead of the hatless Mario code, couldn't someone just make the texture for Mario's whole hat transparent? It wouldn't affect all of Mario's other costumes that way.

 

[camelot]

Also, I was thinking. Instead of the hatless Mario code, couldn't someone just make the texture for Mario's whole hat transparent? It wouldn't affect all of Mario's other costumes that way.

The hair underneath Mario's hat only appears when you use his side taunt, plus you can't make the hat transparent (you can only make certain things transparent). What I mean is, even if the hat could be transparent, the top of Mario's head would be "chopped off" unless he's using his side taunt (since his hair only appears then).

I'm working on a Doc texture... it's very hard to get his coat and hat to look right.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

!!!!!!

I can't believe you did this cape, thanks so much!

I'll be able to give a ton of feedback when i try, since I mained doc only in melee for tournaments

 

[Shadic]

The hair underneath Mario's hat only appears when you use his side taunt, plus you can't make the hat transparent (you can only make certain things transparent). What I mean is, even if the hat could be transparent, the top of Mario's head would be "chopped off" unless he's using his side taunt (since his hair only appears then).

I'm working on a Doc texture... it's very hard to get his coat and hat to look right.

What's the problem with that code I posted before, then?

Not trying to sound provocative, I've just never tried it myself, and it looked fine.

 

[camelot]

What's the problem with that code I posted before, then?

Not trying to sound provocative, I've just never tried it myself, and it looked fine.

There isn't a problem with that code, the code works fine, I'm saying it's impossible to make him look hatless with just a texture hack (you need that code for hatless Mario).

 

[Boo Mansion]

The hair underneath Mario's hat only appears when you use his side taunt, plus you can't make the hat transparent (you can only make certain things transparent). What I mean is, even if the hat could be transparent, the top of Mario's head would be "chopped off" unless he's using his side taunt (since his hair only appears then).

I'm working on a Doc texture... it's very hard to get his coat and hat to look right.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Well, I suppose it won't matter much when we get the Doc as a separate character, because all of his costumes would need to be hatless anyway. (Unless we get to model hacking by then, then we could just make his model look just like Dr. Mario.)

Good luck on your texture. =P

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Doc was better then mario in every way in melee.

I laughed.

not true, Mario has a way better recovery, a disjointed kill move, and his cape can be used to stall much, much better than docs. His utilt is nasty and his uair can truely combo, unlike docs.

Doc is of course better overall, but not EVERY way.




anyways, I can't get doc's utilt to send upward, is that not possible to code or something? in melee, the side of the fist would send you away (like it does now) but the top/center should pop you straight up. his dash attack is pretty nice as it is, if not a bit op, but you should attempt to make it like melees, it would be pretty nice. I like what you did with the flud and the damage, unless it always did that (can't remember) good job though. he plays nice.. I like how he can't go down as far to edgegaurd as mario thanks to a meh up-b, yet his bair is awesome anyways, its a very very nice balance.

 

[tsunami70875]

If it ever gets to the point where we can change individual moves, I vote in giving a modified Luigi Cyclone to replace his down B. Cape, would you consider that if it becomes possible? (I believe we'll figure it out at some point) For now the medical waste thing works.

on the topic of modified moves, consider maybe changing the last hit of Doc's dair, so it keeps them sucked in (or maybe make it spike?)
at least, do this for sure if the down B is able to be changed to a luigi cyclone type of attack

 

[Shadic]

There isn't a problem with that code, the code works fine, I'm saying it's impossible to make him look hatless with just a texture hack (you need that code for hatless Mario).

Ooohh, okay. Cool. Well, hopefully we'll get the whole "Alternative CSS icon = character" codes running soon, and a modified version of the no-hat code for Dr. Mario, and we can actually throw these Melee clones into a complete Plussery Set (Or Nightly, at least.)

 

[leafgreen386]

Ooohh, okay. Cool. Well, hopefully we'll get the whole "Alternative CSS icon = character" codes running soon, and a modified version of the no-hat code for Dr. Mario, and we can actually throw these Melee clones into a complete Plussery Set (Or Nightly, at least.)

Don't expect new characters in the main plussery set anytime soon, at least not until after going gold, if even then.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I have a question...

Do these characters work in regular Brawl as well if you use the codes? Or are they "tweaked" to Brawl+ so the different physics of vBrawl will mess them up?

 

[Shadic]

They're designed for Brawl+, so they'd have physics quite different than the rest of the cast. Not to mention, they wouldn't flow quite right, due to having momentum and whatnot yanked away from them.

 

[mofo_]

I have a question...

Do these characters work in regular Brawl as well if you use the codes? Or are they "tweaked" to Brawl+ so the different physics of vBrawl will mess them up?

i think theyve been made for brawl+, i heard they were making a roy compatible with vbrawl