Chainchoking

[hyperstation]

F*CK yr Nidoking or whatever the hell that pokemAn is, Dutchman. LOL.

So, Z1GMA, I hear you're working on some new Ganon hot dog choking tech or something. Mind sharing?

 

[:034:]

Nidoking = too good

I mean, he's big, strong, can ****ing kill you with anything, he's purple and posting Pokeymanz under your post is the newest fad.

That and Arcanine was already taken

 

[Z1GMA]

F*CK yr Nidoking or whatever the hell that pokemAn is, Dutchman. LOL.

So, Z1GMA, I hear you're working on some new Ganon hot dog choking tech or something. Mind sharing?

Naa... I'll keep this one for my self.
Maybe I'll post it in your lab, later on, together with the lightning fast double stutterstep Fsmash; If you remember ;]

 

[victra♥]

So all you people saying techchasing and Chainchoking are the same thing... would you please mind to GTFO ~

Cash and especially Renth are two Ganon players who practically built Ganondorf to what he is today (in melee). You can understand how frustrating it is for them to come here and see all of you hyped up over something so well known like "predicting a tech" homgz. Who could blame you guys though. You guys have only began your smash career where as the three of us have been smashing competitively for what is now 4 years.

By no means am I trying to come across an elitist, but when it was us who built the foundation of competitive smash, it irritates us to see fresh players literally write off what we spend years accomplishing with they're own name. Not that I'm dissing you guys for trying though. I don't mean it like that.

There are two kinds techchasing:
#1: Presumption based techchasing... and #2: reaction based techchasing.

"Chainchoking" = #2

There are -essentially- 2 kinds of DI.

#1: DI #2: Smash DI

"Aerialdancing" = #2

You can see how ridiculous it sounds when you take something that is literally common knowledge and calling it your own.

I'm not trying to diss brawl or start a flame war. I hope you can understand where we are coming from.

Also, I hope no one rights this off as spam because I don't see why this isn't considered on topic. I'm simply refutting the OP. Debates move the community forward, as do debates do in real life. I'm sure you guys are willing to reply to a few posts that don't consist of "oh chainchoking is cool im going to try now. =D"

 

[Z1GMA]

=_= ... I was only pointing out that Chainchoking isn't just any kind of techchasing.
It's a subpart of it.
Therefor I placed it in a specific techchasing-folder..

There are -essentially- 2 kinds of DI.

#1: DI #2: Smash DI

You forgot #3: Horribad DI !

 

[Z1GMA]

Double post

 

[turtlecake]

hey u melee players are gerudo hating


take it somewhere else



But really, this is the most stupidest thing I ever heard.




btw im going to make fastfall into superfall gg

 

[Gleam]

Isn't techchasing refered in predicting or reacting against an opponents tech and or rolls?

If it does then...

Chainchoking refers to not only techchasing the rolls but also the get ups. Since gets ups are not techs nor are they rolls I myself wouldn't classify it in a techchase. So I see Chainchoking as the combination of gerudoing all sets of an opponents moves including rolls and get ups.

 

[Z1GMA]

Isn't techchasing refered in predicting or reacting against an opponents tech and or rolls?

If it does then...

Chainchoking refers to not only techchasing the rolls but also the get ups. Since gets ups are not techs nor are they rolls I myself wouldn't classify it in a techchase. So I see Chainchoking as the combination of gerudoing all sets of an opponents moves including rolls and get ups.

^Wizeman's spoken!

I see what you mean, Gleam.. It makes sense!

 

[turtlecake]

Isn't techchasing refered in predicting or reacting against an opponents tech and or rolls?

If it does then...

Chainchoking refers to not only techchasing the rolls but also the get ups. Since gets ups are not techs nor are they rolls I myself wouldn't classify it in a techchase. So I see Chainchoking as the combination of gerudoing all sets of an opponents moves including rolls and get ups.

Techchasing is techs AND get ups.


but since its gerudoing its chainchoking

 

[victra♥]

Isn't techchasing refered in predicting or reacting against an opponents tech and or rolls?

If it does then...

Chainchoking refers to not only techchasing the rolls but also the get ups. Since gets ups are not techs nor are they rolls I myself wouldn't classify it in a techchase. So I see Chainchoking as the combination of gerudoing all sets of an opponents moves including rolls and get ups.

Wow. For an '08 you sure are wise. I have to go tell Silent Spectre that he's been doing it wrong.

 

[Renth]

Wow. For an '08 you sure are wise. I have to go tell Silent Spectre that he's been doing it wrong.

Roflmao. I love this guy.

for the record brawl kids. Silent Spectre doesn't do anything wrong lol.

So, you guys realize that techchasing and reacting to a tech is the exact same thing right?

It just seems strange that you guys are naming a term that's been around for years. =/

and lol at you guys reporting Cash Mooney even though what he said is legit.

Hey! I already told them tech chasing is reaction for good players vs. stupid guessing random noobs! and ya hyperstation gets super offended if you even so much say something sucks. like brawl... it sucks...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wow. For an '08 you sure are wise. I have to go tell Silent Spectre that he's been doing it wrong.

Why are you generalizing people on what year they joined?

 

[turtlecake]

Why are you generalizing people on what year they joined?

Because most of you are *******es that came when barlw came

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Because most of you are *******es that came when barlw came

That's a very mature way of putting it. By the looks of things, you're the one that just seems to have borned.

 

[Gleam]

Generalizing on years? I thought it was post count that was supposed to be generalized.

It doesn't really matter what year I joined. I don't act as if I'm a great brawler but I do have a very significant intake on Ganondorf knoweldge.
---

It's like DAD said, it's nomenclature really. Zap Jumping is basically a recovery right, but we dont' call it "recovery" we call it Zap jumping.

The same thing involves here.

 

[victra♥]

Why are you generalizing people on what year they joined?

It's a legit generalization. If you see someone is in grade 10, you'd expect someone who's in grade 12 to be more intelligent. There are always exceptions to this rule, but its a general consensus that people can't help but follow. Literally, it's just common sense. You're join date is evidence of when you started smashing, whether or not you started earlier that your join date. I played melee competitively since '05, but since I joined in '07, thats what people will assume. Unless I show them my tournament hosting history etc, i'm generalized as an '07, but there's nothing wrong with that.

It isn't a coincidence that the majority of the brawl community is late '07 to early '09.

Also, you stated that previous post as if it was a fact.

I'll stop now, just try not to provoke me. I wouldn't want to stray this thread off track with this topic.

 

[MBreeto]

That's a very mature way of putting it. By the looks of things, you're the one that just seems to have borned.

yea, I agree. If anything, swf is just getting more attention through brawl. Hell, that's how I got here, but just because I joined in 09 doesn't mean you can instantly judge me on what type of a person I am.

 

[hyperstation]

Could ya'll haters just stop, please?

Look, I've been playing Ganon since 2001. I'm 22 years old. I only began tournament play after I moved to NYC a few years back and the tournament scene was so far advanced that I couldn't break in very easily. I'm buddies with Wes, BUM, D1, have had friendlies with NL, Blackanese, etc., worshiped PC Chris's (Long Island) and Eddie's Ganon's during melee, blah blah blah.

The only reason I name drop so rashly and tastelessly is because I'm just saying, please don't insult our intelligence. A lot of people here work really hard on BRAWL Ganon, but that doesn't mean we don't know and respect our roots. So yes, Renth, I used to watch your vids all the time, and lurked these forums for YEARS before I joined for Brawl. Some of us keep playing Melee, some of us don't, but it's just plain annoying when Melee elitists come in here and tell us our favorite game is lame and we suck at it. The psychology behind that is really sad, and all you're doing is killing our thread with your petty semantic debates. PLEASE, just stop.

 

[victra♥]

yea, I agree. If anything, swf is just getting more attention through brawl. Hell, that's how I got here, but just because I joined in 09 doesn't mean you can instantly judge me on what type of a person I am.

I don't judge the type of person you are, nor do I judge your intelligence.

People will and always will judge your knowledge of smash through looking at your join date.

Now we're just starting a silly off-topic flame war. Can we get back to the discrepancies between chainchoking and techchasing?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't judge the type of person you are, nor do I judge your intelligence.

People will and always will judge your knowledge of smash through looking at your join date.

Now we're just starting a silly off-topic flame war. Can we get back to the discrepancies between chainchoking and techchasing?

You opinioned Gleam's intelligence. If that isn't judging, what is?

 

[MBreeto]

I don't judge the type of person you are, nor do I judge your intelligence.

People will and always will judge your knowledge of smash through looking at your join date.

Now we're just starting a silly off-topic flame war. Can we get back to the discrepancies between chainchoking and techchasing?

True true. I agree that people will judge my smash knowledge, but I shouldn't have to prove myself to people, even though that is the case. Oh well, I just got a little pissed when that guy called everyone with a high join date *****es. I'm over it now

 

[victra♥]

You judged Gleam's intelligence.

I judged is knowledge about smash, not his intelligence in general.

You keep nitpicking at my posts. Let's try and keep on topic here shall we? Otherwise, we'll be going in circles with a debate that's been beaten to death ten times over.

 

[Bragi]

I don't judge the type of person you are, nor do I judge your intelligence.

People will and always will judge your knowledge of smash through looking at your join date.

Now we're just starting a silly off-topic flame war. Can we get back to the discrepancies between chainchoking and techchasing?

This has got to be the silliest thing I've ever read on these boards, and I've read some silly stuff. Any knowledge of Smash, or anything else, really, should be judged independently of join date, avatar, country of origin, hair color, and any other ridiculous and inconsequential indicator. I mean, if Hylian, for example, had to get a new account for some reason, do you honestly think people should judge him based on his join date? The whole argument is specious. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[halcyon.days]

This has got to be the silliest thing I've ever read on these boards, and I've read some silly stuff. Any knowledge of Smash, or anything else, really, should be judged independently of join date, avatar, country of origin, hair color, and any other ridiculous and inconsequential indicator. I mean, if Hylian, for example, had to get a new account for some reason, do you honestly think people should judge him based on his join date? The whole argument is specious. Absolutely ridiculous.

This still doesn't change the fact that tech chasing = chain choking.

 

[hyperstation]

This still doesn't change the fact that tech chasing = chain choking.

Victra, you're bringing your crew in here now? Seriously, enough drama.

We're literally arguing semantics, an argument that is almost NEVER one worth having.

I've gone on record to say that yes, Chainchoking is tech chasing. The experiment was to find out if tech chasing with Gerudo could be made "frame perfect" meaning it would be inescapable if every get up animation following a Side B was read and reacted to in real time, effectively. It turns out that on a handful of the cast, this is indeed possible. Hard to do, yes, but certainly doable.

Chainchoking makes perfect sense as a name insofar as Choke/Gerudo/Side B, whatever you want to call it, is the ONLY move being used to chase the tech, and you're inescapably chaining them together. You're not watching your opponent DI IN and then turning and FTilting them. You're not Full Jump DAiring them above their GUA. You're not Wizard Kicking them when they DI OUT. You're choking and you're choking and you're choking and you're choking. You're chaining chokes together. You're "Chainchoking".

If you have a problem with the name, that's one thing, but there's no reason to get all riled up about us truncating the idea of chaining side Bs together into the term Chainchoking.

 

[Bragi]

This still doesn't change the fact that tech chasing = chain choking.

An interesting way of phrasing the matter. According to the currently presented argument, though, it should be "chain choking is equivalent to tech chasing", not the other way around. In other words chain choking falls under the greater umbrella of tech chasing, not the converse. And as others have pointed out, this is simply a quick and very efficient semantic device to refer to the concept in question. If my friend were to tell me he "tech-chased" someone with Ganondorf, I can think of a number of different ways he could have done this. The phrase is not specific. Conversely, if he were to tell me that he "chain-choked" his opponent, I would be made very quickly aware of exactly what the manner of tech-chasing was. That is why this term is a useful and welcome one, and not one which should lead to bickering by a bunch of veteran elitists.

 

[halcyon.days]

Victra, you're bringing your crew in here now? Seriously, enough drama.

Hey now. I came in here of my own accord. I was browsing the melee dicussion thread and I saw this, and I thought I would say what I felt on the subject.

 

[hyperstation]

Victra, you're bringing your crew in here now? Seriously, enough drama.

/QUOTE]

Hey now. I came in here of my own accord. I was browsing the melee dicussion thread and I saw this, and I thought I would say what I felt on the subject.

Heh. That first comment was meant as a light-hearted jab. No offense intended halcyon.DAZE. I'm just trying to lighten up the very somber, very serious tone this thread has taken. It's breaking my heart. I may main a brutal, tyrannical King of Evil, but I've got a soft heart under that leathery exterior.

I can't help but notice that you responded to my comment but ignored the meat of my post which was in direct response to your claim.

Again, no offense intended with the "crew" jab.

 

[halcyon.days]

Heh. That first comment was meant as a light-hearted jab. No offense intended halcyon.DAZE. I'm just trying to lighten up the very somber, very serious tone this thread has taken. It's breaking my heart. I may main a brutal, tyrannical King of Evil, but I've got a soft heart under that leathery exterior.

I can't help but notice that you responded to my comment but ignored the meat of my post which was in direct response to your claim.

Again, no offense intended with the "crew" jab.

I just came in this thread to see what the big deal was about. So I read up on it and I said my opinion. I didn't ignore the rest of your post, nor the one that followed after it by another poster.

And besides, I honestly don't see why you couldn't say, "Oh I tech chased him with side B". Is that so hard? But then you'll say, "Oh but this is based on pure reaction and is frame perfect, etc. etc." and then this whole argument starts again.

 

[PK-ow!]

Bragi, equivalence is a symmetric relation.

If a relation doesn't hold in the other direction for every place where it does, then it's not an equivalence.

That is just fact.

Now, I'm a philosopher, and even I'm getting tired of this tech-chasing "semantic" quibble. hyperstation is right.
Look, if people come in here and equate them, we're going to assume they didn't read the OP/do research, and rightly ignore them. Ignoring someone who comes into a thread without doing his proper part to try to know what's going on, is the right thing to do to stop spam. Someone put a note in the OP to make clear that those comments will be ignored.

And if people come in here and do know what chainchoking is, but want to say it's still tech chasing, then we still don't care. Those comments can pretty much be ignored too. Whether it is or isn't worth calling tech chasing - the point is, it's a (potentially) very valuable form of constructing hit strings. All we're concerned about is (a) making it work, practically, and (b) theorizing how it will change Ganon's meta.

Am I right?

So I suggest adding a note to the OP that any further newcomers who at all talk about techchasing, whether researched or not, will be squelched.

I suggest making both notes in a subheader under the "What is it?" section. That is, give it a subtitle, make it smaller than the "What is it?" title, but still visible at first glance. Maybe a different colour (green?). Then there's no excuse not to have seen it, making all the ignoring that we will do totally justifiable, while it takes up precisely a reasonable amount of space in the OP.

 

[hyperstation]

I love when PK-oW does this.

I still remember how you broke down the different states of RCO lag, and how that smash-trig actually helped ME understand it. Atta boy, PK-oW. Atta boy.

 

[ZenJestr]

I feel like drawing a pic of a fusion between Manondorf & Ness...

 

[Bragi]

Bragi, equivalence is a symmetric relation.

If a relation doesn't hold in the other direction for every place where it does, then it's not an equivalence.

That is just fact.

.

I'm not a philosopher, but I understand the basic concept of an equivalence, in logical terms. But I was speaking practically and not under a purely philosophical mantle, obviously. Rather my equivalence was intended to be linguistic. The original quote used an informal, Internet-kind-of-slang equals sign, and I used the same terms in an organizational sense. What I was trying to say is that there is an argument to be made that, at least at this stage of the game, the chain-choke is less guaranteed than one would wish, and would thus fall under the broader classification of a tech-chase, even if only provisionally. I'm not saying I agree with this--I'm only presenting the argument, and trying to classify its terms. In this sense a chain choke would be a tech chase, while a tech chase would not necessarily be a chain choke--it could be a boost grab, a DACUS, a lot of other things.

 

[Bragi]

And if people come in here and do know what chainchoking is, but want to say it's still tech chasing, then we still don't care. Those comments can pretty much be ignored too. Whether it is or isn't worth calling tech chasing - the point is, it's a (potentially) very valuable form of constructing hit strings. All we're concerned about is (a) making it work, practically, and (b) theorizing how it will change Ganon's meta.

Am I right?

.

I just have to post again to let you know that I agree with you on this point, that it's a very valid one--no one should be deriding the research in this thread in any way, especially not maliciously. My point is only that one's definition of tech-chasing could definitely include this new addition, and that this shouldn't be a problem, either. Call it what you will.

 

[DRD]

I'm sorry guys. I know you made a disclaimer. The reason you think it isn't techchasing is apparently that tech-chasing is prediction while "chainchoking" is reaction.

They are the same thing.

I'm serious, listen. Renth comes in here and says anything about Ganondorf, you need to listen to him. Renth and other ganon players like him have built up ganon's metagame since the early days. But this isn't just an argument from authority; his position is correct as well.

You all seem to be under the impression that pro players "predict" what the opponent will do, where they will go: where they will tech. This isn't true.

There is no such thing as reading minds. A pro player can only know the choices their opponent has. Out of those, he can choose the most likely one; but against other pro players, there is no "most likely". Any is possible. Prediction is only a tiny part of techchasing.

Why do you think smashers dashdance around their opponent while their opponent is in the process of deciding what they will do on the ground? The purpose of dashdancing is to be ready, at any moment, to launch themselves in a specific direction, whether it be to chase the opponent, or to run away if they see the opponent attacking from their getup animation.

If pro smashers knew what their opponent was going to do, their would be no purpose served by dashdancing (except for possible mindgames).

Now tell me that techchasing requires prediction. No. It requires quick reflexes and reaction time, thats it. A player sees the person rolling one way and follows. They SEE first, and react, and follow. There is minimal prediction. It is reaction.

I hope you can understand the feeling that players like Renth have, because, for one thing, this is just techchasing with overb. You say it is inescapable...until someone messes up.

That means that it isn't inescapable. Who here remembers that small fiasco with the samus groundbreaking infinite dash attack deal, right? It happened in 2006, I believe, a few players were saying that samus could be invincible with the dash attack if they just predicted and reacted right. Its the same deal. It is only invincible and inescapable until the player messes up. That is the same as saying techchasing in melee is inescapable.

It is strange that brawl players are taking what has been known for years and giving it a fancy new name. It is still techchasing no matter what attack you chase with.

By no means discontinue your use of this tactic, it is still used for a reason. It just seems quite pretentious to be giving names to things that already have names.

 

[Anonymous.]

LOL

****ing lol

I love myself.

I gave up last night when homostation threw his flawed logic at me, but this just keeps getting better.

 

[Rykoshet]

Calling tech chasing tech chasing isn't hating, it's just saying you guys look silly for assuming that tech chasing is just blindly guessing where your opponent is going to be. Snake's down throw follows these exact same principles and *gasp* it's called tech chasing too. Thing is the snake players aren't gonna go around acting as if it's specific to them and make up a name like "slither watching" or something ridiculous.

 

[Youko]

Get back on topic or else there will be consequences of the infraction variety.

 

[hyperstation]

DRD,

Good post, good read, and thanks for being respectful. I don't know if you read ALL the posts leading up to today, but I think we've got a handle on this. At the beginning, we (wrongly) stated that tech-chasing with Side B is based on prediction, and we continued to stick by this, even though we were wrong. As the thread unpacked, the argument changed, and a lot of our viewpoints changed; we're not impenetrable, blind followers when evidence to the contrary of our understanding is presented.

Gerudo is tech-chasing. No one with half a brain will argue that after all the drama in this thread. Chainchoking is ALSO tech-chasing. Tech-chasing can be based on prediction, reaction, mindgames, whatever you want. The experiment, headed under the name Chainchoking, was to make explicit the idea of frame perfect, reaction based Side-B chaining. We've used that name since the start and it still holds relevance now insofar as it has been proved - to the best of our knowledge - that Side B -> Side B -> Side B, when done correctly, is inescapable on certain characters regardless of their get up animation.

I've already informed Twilight Prince, the thread creator, that the OP needs to address everything that has unfolded regarding the semantic issues contained herein (barring people's dissent with the nomenclature, as that is a question of TASTE, not tactics, and taste is specifically subjective, not objective). Hopefully that will help and we can just get back to discussing the viability of Chainchoking.

EDIT: PS - Rykoshet: Slither watching...make it happen.