Chainchoking

[TP]

Do NOT post here unless you are 100% SURE you know what you're talking about.

I made it perfectly clear in the OP that people should not say they can do it until they have at least watched the video. Even your message will just be overlooked. The incompetence of the masses depresses me. I would put your message in the OP, but I don't want an informational thread to appear rude. However, I will if people don't learn how to not be stupid.

Also, yes, you can be too close to your opponent, in which case the Gerudo hit box will start after Ganon's hand has already moved through your opponent.

If they are that close to the ledge and roll even closer, Fsmash is you new best friend.

 

[AgentJGV]

Also, yes, you can be too close to your opponent, in which case the Gerudo hit box will start after Ganon's hand has already moved through your opponent.[/QUOTE]

ahhh that would be why. ok. just gotta be careful near the edge.

 

[Baro]

...this is totally tech chasing.

 

[AgentJGV]

...this is totally tech chasing.

...

ok who wants to take this one?


.......and....why is there a smily over my post? wierd.

 

[TP]

...this is totally tech chasing.

On a scale of 1 to 10, you're a ****ing moron.

 

[Baro]

I really want someone to explain to me why predicting a tech (or any getting up action) is tech chasing, but reacting to it isn't. Both of these are performing an attack when an opponent gets up to take advantage of his or her frames of vulnerability.

If you want to say you don't agree with me, please don't call me a moron or a noob. It's kind of silly -.-;

Twilight, I'm getting the impression that you feel like this "discovery" could revolutionize the way people play Ganondorf. I know you want to keep testing things out, and if this really ends up helping people, that's great. However, if someone wants to say that what you're doing is simply tech chasing, don't lash out at him or her.

I can be condescending too! Taste my sarcasm!

Ganondorf + side b + tech chasing + inhuman reflexes = NEW TECH OMFG

 

[hyperstation]

I really want someone to explain to me why predicting a tech (or any getting up action) is tech chasing, but reacting to it isn't. Both of these are performing an attack when an opponent gets up to take advantage of his or her frames of vulnerability.

I'll do this, and I'll do it without getting angry, because I see that you're genuinely interested.

Gerudo is a great tech chasing tool. Prediction is not the only aspect of tech chasing; you're right in that. What you need to bear in mind is that we're talking SPECIFICALLY about Gerudo Tech Chasing, which is based on prediction. The reason it's based on prediction is because until now, with this extensive research, it was not thought possible to actually REACT in time to hold someone in a chain of Gerudos.

Example:

You gerudo. You assume your opponent is going to roll left, so you Gerudo left. Your opponent DOES roll left, and you grab him.

Another Example:

You gerudo. You see the opening frame or two of your opponents left roll get up animation. You gerudo left, and you grab him.

The result is exactly the same. The mental state is different. Could it be rash of us to make umbrella statements like "this isn't tech chasing?" perhaps, but you have to understand that it's in order to point out the psychelogical difference between gerudo tech chasing and Chainchoking. does that help?

We only got mad at you because if you look at the long history of this thread, it's been derailed so many times by wise-a$$es thinking they know what they're talking about when they haven't done the research necessary.

<3 DAD

 

[xDD-Master]

OK well the Video is good for showing it, but boring as hell, you shouldnt show all the 4 variants in 1/4 x) and then again and again and again and again... xDDD

Nice stuff in the end, especially the Side-B Spike x)

 

[hyperstation]

OK well the Video is good for showing it, but boring as hell, you shouldnt show all the 4 variants in 1/4 x) and then again and again and again and again... xDDD

Nice stuff in the end, especially the Side-B Spike x)

LOL, well, I wasn't exactly aiming to ENTERTAIN. The reason I did it zoomed in and then zoomed out was so that you could study all of the differences between the get up animations. For instance, at first glance, MKs DI up animation and his GUA look very similar. After watching the vid, you'll notice that the tip of MKs sword comes forward during the GUA and does not during his DI up animation.

Plus, Melvins is so good that you can't possibly get bored.

 

[Baro]

We only got mad at you because if you look at the long history of this thread, it's been derailed so many times by wise-a$$es thinking they know what they're talking about when they haven't done the research necessary.

I already read the whole thread, actually. You again seem to be insulting everyone who disagrees with you. Calling them wise-a$$es, etc. You regard yourself to be right, and I have no problem with that. However, telling people they only think they know what they are talking about, telling them they haven't done as much research as you, and flat out insulting them are what I have a problem with.

 

[AgentJGV]

Well, actually, if you read the thread then it would have been obvious that this was NOT tech chasing and to make that remark probably angered him.

 

[hyperstation]

I already read the whole thread, actually. You again seem to be insulting everyone who disagrees with you. Calling them wise-a$$es, etc. You regard yourself to be right, and I have no problem with that. However, telling people they only think they know what they are talking about, telling them they haven't done as much research as you, and flat out insulting them are what I have a problem with.

Well, touché, homie. Sorry for bein' a d*ck to you, but such is life, alright? Let's just move on. If you have anything to say about the concept of chainchoking, feel free to post it here, semantic issues aside. If you just have beef with me, send me a PM, we're spamming this thread up at this point.

 

[TP]

Twilight, I'm getting the impression that you feel like this "discovery" could revolutionize the way people play Ganondorf.

Your impression is wrong. I doubt this will EVER be used except on a few characters, such as Kirby and Pikachu. I made this thread, and I will defend it to death, but I do not have high hopes for the application of chainchoking.

The rest of your remarks about us being too mean were accurate. Sorry about that.

 

[AgentJGV]

so back on topic, what do you guys think about chainchoking with an air gerudo?

 

[TP]

so back on topic, what do you guys think about chainchoking with an air gerudo?

Impossible. They can roll before you are back to neutral. There are no guaranteed followups whatsoever. If your opponent is nice enough to lie there for a bit while you get ready, then feel free.

 

[hyperstation]

so back on topic, what do you guys think about chainchoking with an air gerudo?

Do you know if Aerial Gerudo has less follow up options than a regular one? That is, can you DI in, out, up, and GUA? After I Aerial Gerudo, I almost always shield the (assumed) GUA and punish with DTilt. It's guaranteed on many characters. If the get up animations are limited, you've got something good, Agent. Needs testing, and I'm not gonna do it right now.

EDIT: All get up animations are still available. Agent, you should still see if you can find something in Aerial Chainchoking, though. Who knows?

 

[AgentJGV]

i'll try to get to it tomorrow.

EDIT: ok so i did a little (emphasis on little) testing. Instead of uses aerial Gerudo or ground Gerudo only, combine the two. If the opponent goes out, in, or just gets up then regular. If he GUAs shield and its actually faster to do an aerial Gerudo because you can jump out of shield.

 

[TP]

i'll try to get to it tomorrow.

EDIT: ok so i did a little (emphasis on little) testing. Instead of uses aerial Gerudo or ground Gerudo only, combine the two. If the opponent goes out, in, or just gets up then regular. If he GUAs shield and its actually faster to do an aerial Gerudo because you can jump out of shield.

I also just did a little testing and take back my previous doubts. I do believe this can be done from an aerial choke. I assumed we did not have time, since they can avoid our guaranteed followups, but I was wrong.

Speaking of me being wrong, this does not work on Meta Knight. It appears that some of my testing was inaccurate, as I predicted. Yes, this wrecks the video. If MK uses DI to separate himself from Ganon and then rolls away, he escapes. I do not know how many characters can escape with the help of DI, but it is not all of them. I'll do some more testing when I have time.

One more thing: try this on Pikachu. It may be the easiest of all of them.

 

[AgentJGV]

If MK DIs away couldn't we just walk toward him before he rolls?

 

[TP]

If MK DIs away couldn't we just walk toward him before he rolls?

This is why I have stated several times that I am not good at testing. The answer is I don't know. We don't have that many frames to work with before the roll starts, so I am not sure if we can get far enough or not. However, for all practical purposes, it makes chainchoking too hard. You have to decide whether or not to step forward based on the DI. That combined with the regular extraordinary difficult essentially rules chainchoking out for MK and possibly others. I will test this (at some point in the future) for the sake of having an accurate list, but that is hardly a practical answer.

 

[hyperstation]

Slow yr roll, papi.

Ok, so the solution is easy.

you ALWAYS take a tiny step forward. It will NOT put you out of range of his in roll, which is short, and his GUA is too slow to matter. Shield walking is almost instant.

 

[AgentJGV]

I'm going off of theory here but i think that if MK DI's away, he is most likely going to roll away so you can just keep walking and gerudo when you get in range.

EDIT: curses beaten to it.

 

[Staco]

lolol, ever thought about, that your opponent can roll to the edge?!
then he will threw down at the edge or he will attack, you shield and he will slide off the stage at the edge

and if your opponent has less damage than you, he can simply lie down and let the timer run out
you have to do a normal attack, or the timer will run down and your opponent wins, because he has less %

 

[stRIP]

lolol, ever thought about, that your opponent can roll to the edge?!
then he will threw down at the edge or he will attack, you shield and he will slide off the stage at the edge

and if your opponent has less damage than you, he can simply lie down and let the timer run out
you have to do a normal attack, or the timer will run down and your opponent wins, because he has less %

I said it in GSB too u just dont get it Staco

Have you seen the video?i dont think so, it looks like you have DISCOVERED it that they roll to the edge..so i think u havent looked at the video

And just lay there is...FAIL :> u stand up after 3 seconds

 

[fonzi21]

Sorry the response time for this chain choking is less then a second. The chances of being able to read exactly what your opponent is going to do and react to it is very low. Yes there are some signs of what your opponent will be doing, but there isn't one for all of them. It is a good find I guess, but like you stated earlier there are multiple characters that roll out of range, and that becomes a tech chase. You can try to step forward, and then murder choke the characters that can roll out of range, but by then they will have time to spot dodge. This is definitely possible to do in a game, but I would not get your hopes high because this is a technique that has to be done to a perfection with absolutely no mistakes. At the highest rate I would say you will get 4-5 off before messing up. I hope people can prove me wrong as this will make Ganon pretty awesome, but the chances of you catching your opponent with more then 4-5 is low. Granted that 4-5 is almost 50% damage which is a huge advantage, but if I could read my opponents exact movements like that I would rather Dair them to a Usmash or Uair which is a much better way to rack up damage (I understand the point is to catch them in an infinite, but that will never happen). As for getting them after a get up attack you will basically have to perfect shield the attack then grab them otherwise they will be able to spot dodge. Metaknight for instance, the character you tested this on you can SH Dair them on a get up attack into an Usmash, or Uair, or my personal favorite a FJ Dair. This could be a good mind game to get your opponent to roll after murder chokes which could lead into the chain-choking, but once again it comes to less then a second of response time. Good find, but there are better options then this low success rate chain-choke.

Please post videos of you chain-choking good opponents so I can be proved wrong. I main and play Ganon a ton against good players, and I would like to have more advantages on my side to be able to contend with the bad matchups.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Sorry the response time for this chain choking is less then a second. The chances of being able to read exactly what your opponent is going to do and react to it is very low. Yes there are some signs of what your opponent will be doing, but there isn't one for all of them. It is a good find I guess, but like you stated earlier there are multiple characters that roll out of range, and that becomes a tech chase. You can try to step forward, and then murder choke the characters that can roll out of range, but by then they will have time to spot dodge. This is definitely possible to do in a game, but I would not get your hopes high because this is a technique that has to be done to a perfection with absolutely no mistakes. At the highest rate I would say you will get 4-5 off before messing up. I hope people can prove me wrong as this will make Ganon pretty awesome, but the chances of you catching your opponent with more then 4-5 is low. Granted that 4-5 is almost 50% damage which is a huge advantage, but if I could read my opponents exact movements like that I would rather Dair them to a Usmash or Uair which is a much better way to rack up damage (I understand the point is to catch them in an infinite, but that will never happen). As for getting them after a get up attack you will basically have to perfect shield the attack then grab them otherwise they will be able to spot dodge. Metaknight for instance, the character you tested this on you can SH Dair them on a get up attack into an Usmash, or Uair, or my personal favorite a FJ Dair. This could be a good mind game to get your opponent to roll after murder chokes which could lead into the chain-choking, but once again it comes to less then a second of response time. Good find, but there are better options then this low success rate chain-choke.

Please post videos of you chain-choking good opponents so I can be proved wrong. I main and play Ganon a ton against good players, and I would like to have more advantages on my side to be able to contend with the bad matchups.

You seem to be forgetting one thing about all of this. Well, four things.

Firstly, if you dair or tilt them, they have escaped from your infinite, but if you simply choke them again, you can always dair or tilt them later. Therefore, if you can chainchoke, you always should, if only because there's no reason not to rack up more damage if you can, while simply resetting their position and getting them closer to the ledge for an easier kill.

Secondly, chainchoking refreshes kill moves. It's like G&W's uair, but IT DOES DAMAGE. Refreshing your kill moves means not only are you getting your opponent closer to kill percentages, but it also means that you can kill them at lower percentages as well.

Thirdly, chainchoking is impossible on some characters. However, it's usable on over HALF OF THE CAST. That's about 20 characters that Ganon can rack up damage and kill much more easily on.

Fourth, as to the difficulty of this technique. Screw that, there's a lot of stuff in Melee that's every bit as hard as chainchoking. They did it, why can't we?

 

[fonzi21]

You seem to be forgetting one thing about all of this. Well, four things.

Firstly, if you dair or tilt them, they have escaped from your infinite, but if you simply choke them again, you can always dair or tilt them later. Therefore, if you can chainchoke, you always should, if only because there's no reason not to rack up more damage if you can, while simply resetting their position and getting them closer to the ledge for an easier kill.

Secondly, chainchoking refreshes kill moves. It's like G&W's uair, but IT DOES DAMAGE. Refreshing your kill moves means not only are you getting your opponent closer to kill percentages, but it also means that you can kill them at lower percentages as well.

Thirdly, chainchoking is impossible on some characters. However, it's usable on over HALF OF THE CAST. That's about 20 characters that Ganon can rack up damage and kill much more easily on.

Fourth, as to the difficulty of this technique. Screw that, there's a lot of stuff in Melee that's every bit as hard as chainchoking. They did it, why can't we?

No I didn't forget any of those actually if you read my entire post. My point is there is much better options then chain-choking. It's very low percent chance to accomplish when you have better options with higher success rate, you can do this sometimes I agree, but there are times when you need to go with the higher success rate. Yes it refreshes moves which is nice, but I never have problems finishing people due to stale moves. Once again good luck getting over 4-5 on those 20 characters. 50% is nice, but I will stick to my attacks that will hit more then 2% of the time. I never said it was impossible I said it is merely a very low risk attack. Take the chance if you want. It's very situational because if you miss have fun getting punished, and if you don't get punished for messing up this attack find new opponents because the ones you are playing aren't helping your game.

 

[TP]

No I didn't forget any of those actually if you read my entire post. My point is there is much better options then chain-choking. It's very low percent chance to accomplish when you have better options with higher success rate, you can do this sometimes I agree, but there are times when you need to go with the higher success rate. Yes it refreshes moves which is nice, but I never have problems finishing people due to stale moves. Once again good luck getting over 4-5 on those 20 characters. 50% is nice, but I will stick to my attacks that will hit more then 2% of the time. I never said it was impossible I said it is merely a very low risk attack. Take the chance if you want. It's very situational because if you miss have fun getting punished.

We know it is hard. That's why it isn't currently being used. We're working on it. The difficulty does not make it a bad option or situational. It is the best option, but it is not an option to take unless you know you can or you are desperate for a comeback. It may not be the best option for you, but it is the best theoretical option, which is why we have to discuss it further.

 

[SaltyKracka]

No I didn't forget any of those actually if you read my entire post. My point is there is much better options then chain-choking. It's very low percent chance to accomplish when you have better options with higher success rate, you can do this sometimes I agree, but there are times when you need to go with the higher success rate. Yes it refreshes moves which is nice, but I never have problems finishing people due to stale moves. Once again good luck getting over 4-5 on those 20 characters. 50% is nice, but I will stick to my attacks that will hit more then 2% of the time. I never said it was impossible I said it is merely a very low risk attack. Take the chance if you want. It's very situational because if you miss have fun getting punished, and if you don't get punished for messing up this attack find new opponents because the ones you are playing aren't helping your game.

It's hard, yes. And currently, there's nobody who can do it well enough to make it the best option at all times, yes. However, that does not mean that you will not get punished for missing with all of those moves that you keep mentioning, which you will eventually do. If it's hard, we get over it. After all, at first, thunderstorming was hard. DAC'ing is fairly hard, and if you mess up you're getting punished as well. Chainchoking is not unique in being hard or punishable if you screw up. That does not mean that it's not the best choice.

 

[fonzi21]

We know it is hard. That's why it isn't currently being used. We're working on it. The difficulty does not make it a bad option or situational. It is the best option, but it is not an option to take unless you know you can or you are desperate for a comeback. It may not be the best option for you, but it is the best theoretical option, which is why we have to discuss it further.

Yes the difficulty does make it a bad option. If I can hit people with Wiz punches all day by reading their movements thats my best option to because it kills at like 40%, but it doesn't make it my best option because the chances of hitting someone with a wiz punch is about the same as chain-choking someone to a death percent. Even if you can do it all day on computers or maybe on your friends you still have the same percent chance of doing it on any other opponent, which is about 2%. It is almost impossible to read your opponents every option from getting up, and to properly re-act to it. It is definitely possible I agree, but you have high hopes thinking that we will figure out how to exactly read what your opponent is doing after a murder choke, and as stated earlier you will not perfectly read this to where it will be such a threat to where Ganon will move up on the Tier list. Theoretically this is the best option, but theoretically with this Ganon would be un-beatable if played perfectly on those 20 characters cause he could chain choke them to 300%, and then use one of the guaranteed follow-ups he has on those characters to kill them. It's a Theory. I've done research on this as well, and I am still doing research on it myself. Trying to find ways to read how people get up or roll or whatever after a choke, but the chances aren't looking good. I'm still not convinced this is your best option until you can guarantee you can read your opponents every move after a choke. It's to easily punished if you miss.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yes the difficulty does make it a bad option. If I can hit people with Wiz punches all day by reading their movements thats my best option to because it kills at like 40%, but it doesn't make it my best option because the chances of hitting someone with a wiz punch is about the same as chain-choking someone to a death percent. Even if you can do it all day on computers or maybe on your friends you still have the same percent chance of doing it on any other opponent, which is about 2%. It is almost impossible to read your opponents every option from getting up, and to properly re-act to it. It is definitely possible I agree, but you have high hopes thinking that we will figure out how to exactly read what your opponent is doing after a murder choke, and as stated earlier you will not perfectly read this to where it will be such a threat to where Ganon will move up on the Tier list. Theoretically this is the best option, but theoretically with this Ganon would be un-beatable if played perfectly on those 20 characters cause he could chain choke them to 300%, and then use one of the guaranteed follow-ups he has on those characters to kill them. It's a Theory. I've done research on this as well, and I am still doing research on it myself. Trying to find ways to read how people get up or roll or whatever after a choke, but the chances aren't looking good. I'm still not convinced this is your best option until you can guarantee you can read your opponents every move after a choke. It's to easily punished if you miss.

So, if you're doing testing, and we're doing testing, then let's join forces!

I've just had an idea, and I think it's what we need for this to work. I'm going to make a thread devoted solely to determining the DI of characters out of FC.

As such, we test one possible character at a time, and post pictures of how to determine exactly what they are going to do. Combining this with intensive practice against said characters, we can work on becoming so **** good that there will be no one who can stop us!

TP, you and DAD will be our most valuable assets for this. We need screenshots of the frames showing the DI of every character, and the two of you are the best we've got. Shall we?

 

[fonzi21]

One advantage Ganon has that can make this easier is the reverse murder choke (Murder choke in a direction then slapping the control stick in the opposite to change directions). This will help a great deal in chain-choking, because most of the time when they start there get up you can determine whether or not they will attack or roll by there animation. Distinguishing the attack or roll, THIS is readable on every character. If you see the roll you can do a murder choke in the direction you think they are going then if you guessed or read wrong QUICKLY reverse the choke, and continue the chain. This raises your percentage of chain choking, but by only a bit. It lowers your range on the choke, but only by fractions of an inch.

Another thing that is very possible. Murder choke Sh Dair to a SHR Uair which kinda trips them and all they can do is a stand up no roll no get up attack, this allows you to instantly murder choke again to another SH Dair, or chain choke etc. w/e you want. Another option I like to do (this is from 0% by the way on Final Destination) is on Metaknight SH Dair, SH Dair, FJ Dair. it slams them into the ground and allows you to Murder choke them instantly, and you can chain choke them, but you only need 1 more murder choke after that and Metaknight is in killing range at 79% from a SH Dair (Thats no DI on the CPU) the end hit will be at 101% and it will kill him without DI. I would expect on a good DI he will need to be over 100% before the SH Dair to kill him, but there is your 4-5 chain chokes that will easily put him over 100%, and you can get a free kill on Metaknight. Which will not only frustrate your opponent, but if they have never seen anything like that before will be in shock and can definitely cause them to play a different style then usual.

I don't think chain-choking will ever get to the point of being an infinite or so good that its unstoppable. It will however be very useful in getting the 40-50% you need to get someone in killing range, however difficult its definitely possible. As i stated above incorporate the chain-choke into little combo's to frustrate your opponent and rack up some serious damage. You will never chain choke someone into killing range you will have to put it in between moves like I stated on the Metaknight, which will be a huge advantage. Test on different characters what combos you can do to get very good damage that will lead directly into 4-5 chain chokes. Which in turn could kill most characters after one of the guaranteed follow-ups.

4-5 In my honest opinion that's the best result for chain choking you will get. Which is huge. Learn to incorporate it into other combos and you will kill people left and right within 30 seconds of a match.

 

[hyperstation]

Salty,

I'm all about advancing chainchoking, and I'm definitely working on it, but I need to work on some of my other vids. Someone else can take up the reigns on that massive project. Sorry bro.

<3 DAD

BTW, simmer down dudes. We all know it's hard. It's gonna get easier. You're preaching to the choir here.

 

[TP]

I've just had an idea, and I think it's what we need for this to work. I'm going to make a thread devoted solely to determining the DI of characters out of FC.

As such, we test one possible character at a time, and post pictures of how to determine exactly what they are going to do. Combining this with intensive practice against said characters, we can work on becoming so **** good that there will be no one who can stop us!

TP, you and DAD will be our most valuable assets for this. We need screenshots of the frames showing the DI of every character, and the two of you are the best we've got. Shall we?

No. At least not by me. When have you ever seen me upload anything? I could probably do photos, although slowly, but I am way too busy with this "real life" thing right now. It's all you, bro.

 

[Clai]

I don't think chain-choking will ever get to the point of being an infinite or so good that its unstoppable. It will however be very useful in getting the 40-50% you need to get someone in killing range, however difficult its definitely possible. As i stated above incorporate the chain-choke into little combo's to frustrate your opponent and rack up some serious damage. You will never chain choke someone into killing range you will have to put it in between moves like I stated on the Metaknight, which will be a huge advantage. Test on different characters what combos you can do to get very good damage that will lead directly into 4-5 chain chokes. Which in turn could kill most characters after one of the guaranteed follow-ups.

4-5 In my honest opinion that's the best result for chain choking you will get. Which is huge. Learn to incorporate it into other combos and you will kill people left and right within 30 seconds of a match.

I think this is the general purpose of advancing this technique in the first place. Mainly the mindgame factor and the refreshing kill moves factor.

Can you really intially Flame Choke one way and then mash the control stick in the other direction to change the direction? I know it's possible with some side specials, but I didn't know it was possible with Ganondorf. If it is possible, how hard is it to do it? I suppose there's only a minimal amount of frames you can turn around before the Choke is "committed" to that direction.

Also, if you can easily determine a roll from a get-up attack, why don't you try this? When you're certain that the character is going to roll, start a dash and then immediately Flame Choke in the direction of the roll. In principle, it's a lot like stutter-step smashes in which you dash and then immediately smash. It could also help increase the range of your Flame Choke if they decide to roll away and maybe grab people that you couldn't with a regular Flame Choke. I'm sorry I can't test any of this myself (no Wii in my room), but can you guys check it out?

 

[hyperstation]

I think this is the general purpose of advancing this technique in the first place. Mainly the mindgame factor and the refreshing kill moves factor.

Can you really intially Flame Choke one way and then mash the control stick in the other direction to change the direction? I know it's possible with some side specials, but I didn't know it was possible with Ganondorf. If it is possible, how hard is it to do it? I suppose there's only a minimal amount of frames you can turn around before the Choke is "committed" to that direction.

Also, if you can easily determine a roll from a get-up attack, why don't you try this? When you're certain that the character is going to roll, start a dash and then immediately Flame Choke in the direction of the roll. In principle, it's a lot like stutter-step smashes in which you dash and then immediately smash. It could also help increase the range of your Flame Choke if they decide to roll away and maybe grab people that you couldn't with a regular Flame Choke. I'm sorry I can't test any of this myself (no Wii in my room), but can you guys check it out?

Yes, you can reverse the direction of a Gerudo, and yes, it's easy to do. Just try it.

Why would we direct the Gerudo intentionally in the wrong direction just so we can reverse it, thus loosing frames. This concept of yours makes absolutely no sense, unless your verbage is just confusing me.

 

[Teronist09]

Also, if you can easily determine a roll from a get-up attack, why don't you try this? When you're certain that the character is going to roll, start a dash and then immediately Flame Choke in the direction of the roll. In principle, it's a lot like stutter-step smashes in which you dash and then immediately smash. It could also help increase the range of your Flame Choke if they decide to roll away and maybe grab people that you couldn't with a regular Flame Choke. I'm sorry I can't test any of this myself (no Wii in my room), but can you guys check it out?

I can say from experience that the timing for dashing into choke is about as difficult as predicting and reacting to the roll animations/gua's. I think for some characters, wolf in particular if I remember my testing correctly, you have to start the dash almost at the same time as they roll; but i might be wrong about that bit.

 

[hyperstation]

I think the general theory right now (suggested by Moi, I might add), is that right after the choke, you immediately take a short step forward. It will not change shielding the GUA, will not change DI up, will not put you out of range of DI in, and puts you closer to your opponent in the event the DI out. Testing hasn't been done hermetically, but I've done some ad hoc work and it seems like the solution, if there even is a problem.

 

[TP]

I think the general theory right now (suggested by Moi, I might add), is that right after the choke, you immediately take a short step forward. It will not change shielding the GUA, will not change DI up, will not put you out of range of DI in, and puts you closer to your opponent in the event the DI out. Testing hasn't been done hermetically, but I've done some ad hoc work and it seems like the solution, if there even is a problem.

Sounds good to me, though I would be very surprised if it doesn't affect shielding any GUAs. The ones that hit twice, one on each side, will be troublesome if they can now hit you with both parts. Taking a step forward is surely fine for most, but for some it is the wrong option. In fact, for those ones, I would say we need to be prepared to take a step back if they originally DI toward us. This may require boring testing.

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

This discovery makes me smile in the most sadistic way imaginable.