Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[ChivalRuse]

Niko, just dash dance and wait for Fox to commit to a nair. Pivot grabs are amazing in this match-up. Watch how M2K or HBK sees nair coming every time and punishes it with a grab. If Fox starts overshooting his approaches to counter this, just run through him, he'll land behind you with the nair, and you can dash back and grab him from behind.

This is all applicable for SH and FJ nair, of course. It's just easier to punish FJ nair.

From what I've seen, you seem to have good dash attack, fair, and nair spacing. So maybe just integrate more dtilt antics into your game.

All of this coming from a lesser Marth player, of course.

And, yes, I main Marth, to anyone wondering.

 

[Niko45]

Yea they overshoot when I try to camp grabs. And if I get hit by that I'm in trouble because now I got hit likely near an edge. I'm just watching these sandbaggy eggm/hbk matches, and I'm noticing that he up tilts way way more than I do. Definitely will make that adjustment.

And Sheik, idk, I play against sheik much more so I got the swagger down a little better.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

niko, if they overshoot, pivot grab early. If they undershoot dd away and pivot grab. Why anyone would attack a DDing marth is beyond me...

 

[Nø Ca$h]

yeah i totally need some dittos with hbk

 

[Rubyiris]

What do you do against a fox that absolutely refuses to do an aerial unless you're in the air, minus drill, and absolutely refuses to approach unless he's 100% sure he wont get hit?

*edit*

Also peach ***** my marth hardcore. idgi. she dash attacks me when i jump in the air, and it hits through my entire moveset. she dashattacks me when i'm lagging from an aerial, roll, spot dodge, returning, etc. when i try to punish anything she commits to she can either dsmash or spot dodge before i can do anything about it. when i wait, he waits. it's irritating because he plays almost 100% reaction to marth, and if i dont approach he runs away and throws turnips.

He also almost 100% stays grounded. its like... worse than fighting sheik. D:

 

[JBM falcon08]

^

Get better spacing

Approach with Dtilt and dash attack. Space well though

More spacing.

Grabbing is good.

 

[Rubyiris]

^

Get better spacing

Approach with Dtilt and dash attack. Space well though

More spacing.

Grabbing is good.

and when she gets a firm grab on his scrotum, what does i do?

 

[X1-12]

and when she gets a firm grab on his scrotum, what does i do?

dont jump out of dash attacks just run away or DD until you can get a grab, if you do some F-throws to regrab then do a B-throw they'll probably DI the wrong way and you can tipper them or just do F-throw to techchase all day and if she approaches with turnips and is floating behind witha n aerial just WD back and jab the turnip out of the air

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Space fairs. Stay close enough that she can't pull a turnip but far enough away that you can shield on reaction if she dash attacks. The spacing is about a sword and a half away. If you get closer than that you want to be either shielding or connecting with your sword. If she tries to run away and pull a turnip, chase her and dtilt/fsmash.

 

[JBM falcon08]

^ not only that but you complained about getting dash attacked?

if you are spacing aerials you shouldn't be getting dash attacked.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The things I do against Peach:

Grab her a lot.
Get her in the air where you can air chase her.
Be patient with fsmashes. Wait for the airdodge.
Counter turnips. ^_^
Mindgame utilts (at kill percent mainly). Empty SH to utilt is good. Other variations apply. 0_0
Dash dance. Be extremely wary of dash attacks.

Bam! You win.

 

[Dart]

good im glad someone finally mentioned countering...but be wary you should only counter if shes either to far away to hit you after your counter lag or if shes coming at you to aerial instantly, then counter that *****.

 

[Niko45]

Peach's dash attack is extremely deceptive and good. To the point that I don't want to just sit back and try to space fair bc it doesn't necessarily cover all her options. Just keep in mind that a peach without a turnip is much more likely to dash attack than a peach with a turnip.

 

[Rubyiris]

^ not only that but you complained about getting dash attacked?

if you are spacing aerials you shouldn't be getting dash attacked.

peachs dash attack comes out faster than his aerials, and hes a floaty *****. this isnt always possible.

even if im spacing fairs, peach can get in on his nuts.

the peach i play against usually only commits to things when i (marth) is in the air. he stays close enough to dash attack me when possible, and runs away and turnips when i'm too far to punish, or if i'm currently stunned by an attack or knocked down.

to put simply, the peach i play against has a very good grasp of the marth matchup and i have a mediocre at best knowledge of the peach matchup and get *****. alot.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Stick to retreating nair and/or fair. In-place is just way too susceptible to getting you dash attacked.

The match-up is about staying on your feet, grabbing, not getting turniped, and using fsmashes very cautiously. Avoid having her below you. Upsmash and utilt have invincibility frames, and nair just comes out fast, as does dash attack.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Rubyiris if you can do it once you can do it numerous times. Your the one that must get consistent and punish like that so that way they will have to adapt. personally I only approach peach with dash attack, dtilt, or ftilt.

If i notice an opening in the dashdance i will go for a grab.

 

[X1-12]

peach dash attack -> you wavedash back
OR
peach dash attack -> you lightsheild -> shieldgrab

easy

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why lightshield? lightshield causes you to have significantly more shield stun. just space yourself so she doesn't go through you.

also, because of how her dash attack accelerates, i suggest not trying to dd away or wd back when she starts running. Either get in the air and fair her or shield.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think ftilt beats her dash attack but I haven't tested this.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You can also space youself so that she does go thru you. except you turn around b4 she gets there and shield grab on the back end.

 

[Aesir]

why lightshield? lightshield causes you to have significantly more shield stun. just space yourself so she doesn't go through you.

also, because of how her dash attack accelerates, i suggest not trying to dd away or wd back when she starts running. Either get in the air and fair her or shield.

While shielding might work against peach, I wouldn't get into a huge habit with it, because in other match ups like sheik for instance they can just dash attack cancel grab you to punish.

 

[X1-12]

why lightshield? lightshield causes you to have significantly more shield stun. just space yourself so she doesn't go through you.

also, because of how her dash attack accelerates, i suggest not trying to dd away or wd back when she starts running. Either get in the air and fair her or shield.

i havn't actually tested with peach but if you normal sheild then they can just go through you, if you light shield you'll slide back with her and thus she'll be on the right side for a grab

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'd rather just space correctly and have less lag. If she starts delaying her dash attack in order to cross over, i'd start dtilting instead of shielding. Or just let her cross over, cause you can still punish her dash attack with dair or bair or wd->fsmash.

 

[Cosmo!]

sveet is right, you shouldn't lightshield to grab peach's dash attack, I would imagine peach can't even cross up marth with dash attack unless its a reverse hit (in which case the lightshield would push marth the opposite direction).. this is speculation tho

peach's dash attack lunges forwards, so if peach is getting that close the marth without attacking, marth will probably think she's going for a grab and gtfo.

 

[Roneblaster]

I have this "Cactuar" person in my pool @ pound.

So How am i going to go about winning?

 

[Rubyiris]

I have this "Cactuar" person in my pool @ pound.

So How am i going to go about winning?

Hope he goes Marth, then play the matchup like a champ.

If he goes Fox, enjoy getting 2-0ed and possibly 6~8 stocked. =[

If he sandbags, then I guess he'll 2 stock you instead of 3~4 stock?

 

[Roneblaster]

Yeah, he was talking about going random throughout pools. I hope he does that or plays marth vs me. Hi Cactuar, I have vids on youtube of me playing, but you wont need to watch them to beat me.

 

[Dart]

I have this "Cactuar" person in my pool @ pound.

So How am i going to go about winning?

ask him to let you take one game off him since he's ****ing cactus, he probably won't need it anyway.
if that doesn't work pick falcon and spam taunt.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I have this "Cactuar" person in my pool @ pound.

So How am i going to go about winning?

Cut his controller cord with your forward smash.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Crouching under Falco's ledge lasers and powershielding rapes

discuss

well, i tried this vs Axe's falco, and he's generally able to shoot his ledge lasers pretty well

like, they're low enough to hit me, but it's still easier to PS them. Especially if im like, dtilt distance from the ledge. If I'm d-tilt distance from the ledge (it might be a bad idea for falco to ledge laser in this situation, but it'll probably catch a bunch of people off guard anyway) then i can just crouch. If he tries to ledge laser, it's EXTREMELY easy to powershield and punish (i usually shieldgrab, but theres probably something better). If i fail to powershield the first one, i can sometimes shieldgrab him anyway either in-between lasers or after the second one. If THAT fails, then the falco might try to hit you (cuz you whiffed a shieldgrab and stuff). Generally, the spacing made it impossible for him to hit me with a shine, leaving him with like, jab, and ftilt. If he jabs, then i can CC grab it. Ftilt, i dunno

I'll make a video or something next time he's at my house (probably tomorrow)

hooray?

I didn't think much about the different applications for this yet (i.e. when im halfway across the stage, other things to do to falco, etc)

 

[Falcinho]

yeah crouching is cool if you want to PS afterwards, since you can wait until the laser is right above you and shield then.

edit: except he lasers really low but then its easier to just over them again.

 

[Niko45]

Crouching under Falco's ledge lasers and powershielding rapes

discuss

well, i tried this vs Axe's falco, and he's generally able to shoot his ledge lasers pretty well

like, they're low enough to hit me, but it's still easier to PS them. Especially if im like, dtilt distance from the ledge. If I'm d-tilt distance from the ledge (it might be a bad idea for falco to ledge laser in this situation, but it'll probably catch a bunch of people off guard anyway) then i can just crouch. If he tries to ledge laser, it's EXTREMELY easy to powershield and punish (i usually shieldgrab, but theres probably something better). If i fail to powershield the first one, i can sometimes shieldgrab him anyway either in-between lasers or after the second one. If THAT fails, then the falco might try to hit you (cuz you whiffed a shieldgrab and stuff). Generally, the spacing made it impossible for him to hit me with a shine, leaving him with like, jab, and ftilt. If he jabs, then i can CC grab it. Ftilt, i dunno

I'll make a video or something next time he's at my house (probably tomorrow)

hooray?

I didn't think much about the different applications for this yet (i.e. when im halfway across the stage, other things to do to falco, etc)

I was under the impression that with good timing you can at least trade dtilt with the 2nd laser if not just hit outright and then they are dead. Maybe you are talking about a different spacing or maybe this isn't possible if they try to laser lower? I'm unclear on this.


Change of subject:

What stages do you guys usually like vs. Sheik? I'm finding that small stages like YS and FoD that are traditionally viewed as great Marth stages are not as good as DL64, Stadium and FD against sheik. I just find that a stage with a ton of space really exposes her limited mobility and that big stages seem to invite her to go for bad approaches more frequently. I'm just curious as to whether the general consensus on the matchup is in line with this thinking.

 

[JBM falcon08]

This is just a thought

Playing marth against falco, most people really like doing wd oos.

In my opinion, its decent if the falco is already pillaring you and your trying to get away.

Though most Marth players wd oos when the falco is still distant. I don't get it.

My advice is Marth should approach falco and if he stays grounded spamming lasers, run, PS, and continue if neccesary.

Powershielding is only good if you can gain the offense from it.

IMO its harder to read a falco who stops approaching with lasers so much. If your PSing is obviously consistent the falco will stop lasering most of the time /or just keep doing it. It will be the most boring match ever. If your approaching them when they are firing lasers and you are PSing you won't leave your self so open in the approach.

I don't think ANY character should shield just to shield. Honestly wd oos is good but its also slow and you sit in your shield. Good players will grab you.

It seems like only THE BEST actually punish with grabs anymore when people sit in their shield.

Its all about shield pressure.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Niko my suggestion vs sheik is to either cp YS, FD, or BF.

YS is a great stage for marth against sheik. Platforms are low, ceiling is low(utilt?!), small blast zone for early tippers, or just killing a sheik at less than 170(dl64 and sometimes FD...).

FD I just like this stage regardless no matter what. Marths dash dance is extremely good. A good sheik will typically camp with needles which sucks but with good aerial spacing it should be too hard to approach. I feel though that once you grab sheik on this stage it should be done. Throw her up and keep her up. Its relatively easy on this stage imo.

BF is a last resort cp against sheik. What makes this stage a little nicer is its not as crazy as FoD. Platforms are stable, blast zones on the sides are bigger. Honestly this stage is whoever gets first grab. It should be played like that at least. Grab sheik and throw her up to the platform and just camp under the platforms and keep her up like at FD.

FoD is inbetween. sheik ***** the ledges so well with her tilts. Marth can do well with ledges there too, but its a little harder to get things done on a sheik.

DL64 isn't too bad but its definetly in sheiks favor.

Stadium vs sheik is really tough. She plays the levels way to well on the stage compared to marth. Platform setups to wl on platforms to grabs is too good there.

I'd ban Stadium or DL64

 

[Niko45]

I think a tipper kills at like 120 on any stage and its not that hard to get them off her up B. I love DL64 vs sheik with the room and imo her platform setups suck there bc they're just way too high off the ground. On the small stages her approaches are so much easier because she's just always on top of you giving her better opportunities to shield pressure you and also taking away your better options for escaping (I always WD out away when sheik ftilts my shield - on small stages the ledge is often too close and compromises this). She also kills outright with fair at like 100 on YS vs like 140+ on big stages.

It's interesting tho that people like small stages vs sheik to me, my results are far worse on those stages.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Thats the thing I dislike dl64 for against her. She doesn't die from a tipper at 120. If she has good DI i've seen sheiks survive 150. She does typically die at 120 from tippers on other stages though.

Its funny how you say sheiks try to approach from above on smaller stages. I agree that they do, but till this day if i'm playing sheik I rarely approach. I just needle camp. Its much smarter than putting yourself at risk being above Marth.

A sheik that approaches from above is easy to zone because you know what she is coming in for. Needles to grab or needles of some sort. Even if they don't go for needles if your reacting well and spacing they shouldn't be able to get in with proper zoning. fairs utilts and uairs ftw.

Like Cactus says a campy sheik is difficult to beat.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What stages do you guys usually like vs. Sheik? I'm finding that small stages like YS and FoD that are traditionally viewed as great Marth stages are not as good as DL64, Stadium and FD against sheik. I just find that a stage with a ton of space really exposes her limited mobility and that big stages seem to invite her to go for bad approaches more frequently. I'm just curious as to whether the general consensus on the matchup is in line with this thinking.

she doesn't need mobility (even though she has it). She just camps the hell out of you and punishes marth's bad approaches.

for stages.... avoid DL and PS. she will kill you at 85% and you will kill her at 200% unless you find a way to get a tipper on her.

 

[Niko45]

I actually don't find sheik to be that effective at camping Marth. She is completely outspaced by fair, dtilt, and just about anything really so she needs those needle/platform tricks to have a real approach. Its never as cut and dry as "she just camps you". People have to mix in approaches and baits to be effective on both sides of the fight.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik doesn't have to approach. any time marth attempts to approach, he gets punished. any time he retreats, he gets needled until he approaches.

 

[Brightside6382]

Like Cactus says a campy sheik is difficult to beat.

That's why every Marths secondary is Fox.