Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag5XI2i2kGk

Critique please. I feel like for the most part I'm doing the right things, just occasionally failing execution (missing simple edgeguards or failing to pivot when I want to or something). But if you have any general advice (especially for CATCHING a campy fox) I'd love to hear it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It feels to me like you're not able to keep up with that Fox. Partially because that Fox is pretty fast, but also because you're committing to a lot of laggy things. Like wavedashing, for one, I feel like you're incorporating way too much into your movement game, especially since it tends to be rather compact, so it's fifteen frames of closed-space lag, which is going to hurt you.

Other things are like... your choice to use the Dancing Blade (which does not seem to be paying off at all) and to continue the combo even when it's obvious you're not going to hit him. You also seem to like to platform dash to the center of the stage, which is fine, but, you're doing it in situations that don't call for it, so you're just putting yourself above Fox on an extremely predictable course.

There're also times where I'm really just wondering what the hell you were thinking... dropping straight down on Fox on the recovery and dying to a usmash... utilting when he's approaching you on the ground... jumping away from the jab instead of fairing... spot dodging after he dash attacks your shield instead of grabbing.

It seems like you're panicking and trying to outspeed your opponent. Well, you can't, because you're Marth and he's Fox. Properly played, he'll always be faster than you. It just seems like you're jamming buttons and button combinations, trying to force Marth to go faster, trying to force your game to go faster and, as a result, you're missing simple edge guards and mis-spacing. Don't get trapped in your opponent's rhythm. You gotta take control of the match, because that's how Marth wins.

Unless you're Mew2king and your Marth somehow is Fox-like in speed. I'll get back to you on that if this is the case.

 

[Niko45]

You're really good.

You should try to position yourself closer to the fox so you have more room to dash away to pivot grab. Ur positioning yourself too far away so that he can just nair at you and through you and cover your options. Then he shines you off stage and its a gimp opportunity. If the stage was a football field, throw out nair and fair from about your 40 yard line and then dash away to pivot grab. This will then open up more opportunities for you to dash at him and get him to move around and out of position.

Once you pivot grab a fox a couple of times (especially punishing as well as you are from grab), they will get overly campy. That's when you can come at them with dtilt, dash attack, or even grab straight out of their dash dance. If they are really smart then they'll nair in place or something, so mix in running at them with shield, then wavedash back OOS...stuff like that. Just force a reaction to your movement and then respond as best you can. You just need to stop allowing him to dictate the pace by keeping you near the ledge and nair shining you off stage.

The platform approach is good, but also mix in some platform lands in place, hesitate, and drop through the platform with fair, or instead of coming down off the platform with fair, come down and waveland backwards or forwards.

One last thing I would say is that you can ROLL. This fox puts on the nair shine pressure when you are backed down near the ledge. If you anticipate and roll inwards, suddenly he is the one boxed in. Obviously rolling gets predictable if abused but keep in mind that it is an option and a really really effective one in this circumstance.

 

[Dark Sonic]

My Marth normally plays faster than that actually <_<. Me and Uuaa go pretty even usually (I still can't believe I let that battlefield match slip). The platform dashing was actually done to try to get Uuaa to follow me up. I'm well aware that this is a bad Marth position, but Uuaa is the type of player who will actively attack you if you're above him on a platform, rather than wait for yout to come down. I needed an opportunity to catch him comming up and quickly switch positions.

Also...I have to approach him. If I don't approach he WILL do nothing but laser.


As for jumping away from jab to upsmash, that was me panicking. I'm really not use to Fox players jabbing so often, so I don't know what to do about it (fairing works? I've really gotta try that) Thanks for the tip.


Continuing the combo on dancing blade was only done because I was already commited. I shouldn't have used it in the first place in that situation, but once you start your only option is to try to throw the opponent off. When I had started it I assumed he'd still be shielding and I'd be able to use it for pressure. As a general option it's much better than people give credit for (it got me two kills out of the 5 times I used it. It would've gotten me a third if I had realized that I'd hit him with the first two hits and had done neutral instead of down <_<).

Uuaa doesn't misspace dash attacks. Shieldgrabbing it is not an option (the spotdodge was a messed up wavedash OoS)

Dropping down onto the upsmash...was unintentionaly. I knew he was gonna upsmash, but I misspaced myself horizontally and got hit anyway Q_Q. Playing once a month can't be good for my spacing. /johns.

My bad on the uptilt. Should've paid mo

 

[Niko45]

I really welcome Fox to laser camp because it gives me the free approach to back them down to the ledge and nair/DD around right in their face and make them freak out and mess up instead of the other way around. It's not the you shouldn't approach just approach much more cautiously without committing to anything.

 

[ohgodx]

i have trouble against spacies sheik and falcon
i feel vulnerable, and aside the upthrow abuse on spacies, i dont know any specific combos or setups i should be looking for at low and high %
i asked my local dude for advice but he's long since retired and couldnt tell me much other than "utilt is good"
i can ask more specific if it helps any

 

[Nø Ca$h]

cactuar is the fastest marth. even faster than jmans fox.

speaking of the prickley green dildo with limbs, hes retiring....

 

[bolt.]

My question is why are you retiring? You're soooo good.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Light shield against dash attacks.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Light shield against dash attacks.

That only helps if I'm 100% sure that he's gonna dash attack <_<. I was trying to wavedash out but simply messed up, no biggie (wavedashing out works ON REACTION rather than on prediction, so I find it more valuable <_<)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno, I've never had a problem grabbing dash attacks. Get him early if he's trying to get through, I guess?

 

[Ndot]

Yo, Elven or anyone, can you tell me how many frames it takes for Marth to start up his up smash? Thanks.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Frame thirteen i think.

i swear this is not just an arbitrary number haha

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Just so I don't get outdone.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the first hitbox looks like a c***










just saying.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well he's stabbing it up your ***.

What'd you think it would look like? Obviously he's gonna stab you with his ****

 

[Ndot]

lol, thx a lot Fever and Elven. :D Theres a program for those pictures and frame data right? I remember I used it once, a long time ago. =/ Don't remember what its called.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Seanson's Hitbox System.

 

[Turazrok]

Is there a reason I shouldn't WD everywhere with Marth? (Unless I need to jump) Cuz' it's long... and stuff.

 

[KirbyKaze]

WDing towards someone when they're coming at you will hurt because it's a fairly big investment and the lengths aren't as controllable as dashes.

Actually if someone approaches you when you're Marth you shouldn't move towards them period but that's besides the point.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...yeah, what is with these different colored people asking (no offense) newbie questions?

Wavedashing is a fifteen frame commitment. That's a lot. Marth's dash works just as well.

 

[Turazrok]

...yeah, what is with these different colored people asking (no offense) newbie questions?

Wavedashing is a fifteen frame commitment. That's a lot. Marth's dash works just as well.

I rarely play anyone good so I have no one to test stupid question solutions out on. Therefore I rely on other people's experience. Does this answer YOUR question?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...okay, rephrasing that question. Why is your name pink and why are you pranked?

 

[TresChikon]

Pranked Member:
Pranked members are members who were chosen by Premium members as a sort of joke to have their names turned to a hot pink color and their titles changed to “Pranked!” for an entire month.

Duh

10duhs

 

[TheLake]

Suuuper dumb question but...

Im terrible with marths recovery, is there a trick to his upb? like it can be angled right? If so whens the best time to do this?

just tips on recovering would be cool thanks

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Yes you can sweet spot it if that is what your asking? For questions on where exactly, just practice against a friend or yourself. Or wait till not the wee hours of the morning.

Save your jump and don't come in close or you'll probably be gimped by some sort of shine or bair. Save your jump and force them to punish your up b lag or mess them up and get back fo freeeeeeee.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It can be angled, yeah. Best time to do it is... as soon as possible.

Use the Dancing Blade before you use your second jump. It's partially momentum based, so you want to drift forward before using it to get more distance.

Nair people who try to light shield edge hog. Or air dodge. Marth can grab the edge pretty fast after.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can do marth's upb at a much farther angle than normal. i think you have to smash it like a smash attack. watch azen vs ken in 06, azen does the angled and ken doesn't (i think he learns it by the end of the year, though)

 

[ArcNatural]

OverB is soooo overused in recovery it's ridiculous.

You should never OverB during recovery unless:

1. You have to stall cause they are edgehogging.

2. Your high enough that they can't hit you/want to stop momentum

3. overB to interrupt needles or Fox trying to shine you.

A majority of the time your ok to recover without using the OverB and you should be paying attention to how your opponent is trying to set up the edgegaurd. Because it's incredibly easy to **** Marth during the overB lag if your mindlessly doing it.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

OverB is soooo overused in recovery it's ridiculous.

You should never OverB during recovery unless:

1. You have to stall cause they are edgehogging.

2. Your high enough that they can't hit you/want to stop momentum

3. overB to interrupt needles or Fox trying to shine you.

A majority of the time your ok to recover without using the OverB and you should be paying attention to how your opponent is trying to set up the edgegaurd. Because it's incredibly easy to **** Marth during the overB lag if your mindlessly doing it.

Marth's overb stops sheik's needles?


QUESTION!
How does Marth get through Falco's ledgehop double lasers?
Like I don't like relying on down-b cause that would get predictable and be baited pretty easily.
Crouching and down-tilting as the falco comes back down only works on those who haven't mastered getting both lasers down at the right levels.

What options do you guys use?

 

[Charlesz]

barely, if she angles them then definetly not

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

(marth's) b moves don't connect with projectiles. upb might, but i know for a fact neutral and side b don't.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Short hop and nail them!

Dancing Blade hits like... bombs.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Short hop and nail them!

Dancing Blade hits like... bombs.

elven, is that your method for dealing with ledgehop lasors?

 

[Ndot]

I shield grab after the double lasers, sometimes short hop attack, or I just mass jab lol, they get confused by the jab and they get jabbed offstage, then edgeguard. lol If they roll behind from my jabs, I just grab.

Hmm, I should try those Side Bs, like Elven said, they're bombs. o_O

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I shield grab after the double lasers, sometimes short hop attack, or I just mass jab lol, they get confused by the jab and they get jabbed offstage, then edgeguard. lol If they roll behind from my jabs, I just grab.

Hmm, I should try those Side Bs, like Elven said, they're bombs. o_O

what the dude?? how would side-b's work? is there some magical property about 'em that makes 'em work in the ledge scenario?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Fair against the ledge hop lasers, or catch them as they're rising with a dtilt. You can kinda tell when they're coming up by the height they drop and when they double jump. Plus Falco's ledge stall is awkward, anyway.

The Dancing Blade hits bombs, I mean. Ken does it in a video against Aniki. It has nothing to do with the ledge scenario =P

 

[Ndot]

OHHHH, ok LOL. Thats what you meant. I thought you meant like......they're so good they hit like bombs lol. K, I won't use them for the laser thing then lol.

Also, you can shield the first laser while the falco does the double ledge laser thing and reverse up b as he is falling to do his second laser and he'll get hit out, since you knocked him out of the jump, you just edgeguard **** him. lol Or you can just do that after he lands.

 

[ArcNatural]

Marth's overb stops sheik's needles?


QUESTION!
How does Marth get through Falco's ledgehop double lasers?
Like I don't like relying on down-b cause that would get predictable and be baited pretty easily.
Crouching and down-tilting as the falco comes back down only works on those who haven't mastered getting both lasers down at the right levels.

What options do you guys use?

Yes it stops needles and what's nice is as long as you time it right the sweep of the overB can stop a full angled charged needles aimed at you. The hitstun makes it look pretty cool too.

DownB is best if you think they will double laser since it sends them off the stage. You just need to mix it up and expect good Falcos to bait it after you get them with it. You can also space so you can shield to immediate fair after the second laser lands. Falco is relatively safe though if they are good and put the lasers in the proper locations.

I also like to sh into the lasers and fair after the second one. It seems to work because Falco's get greedy when they see you get hit by them.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Fair against the ledge hop lasers, or catch them as they're rising with a dtilt. You can kinda tell when they're coming up by the height they drop and when they double jump. Plus Falco's ledge stall is awkward, anyway.

The Dancing Blade hits bombs, I mean. Ken does it in a video against Aniki. It has nothing to do with the ledge scenario =P

ohh, I thought u meant side-b works really well that it's like u threw a mega-ton warhead at them. I've done that before, side-b a link. Although it's hard to make the bomb bounce off at the right angle and reflect it back at em and most of the time you've just lagged yourself while they come in with a grab/dash attack/nair.