Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

I agree with Umbreon that Marth's shield is awful and if you're holding shield you're probably doing something wrong. This character is way to good at moving to waste his time sitting in shield (that ain't Peach).

I think Counter could be substituted for shield in a lot of situations also. M2K showed this pretty well at Apex. No, I'm not suggesting lol-counter-cuz-this-spacie-always-approaches. But I think in situations where a character is above you, you can do stuff like shield and immediately JC counter. They'll almost always try to late aerial your shield, and get countered instead. Just watch out for tomahawks, and obviously don't overuse. You get a knockdown, but vs. a lot of characters that won't mean much, so moving out of the way and punishing their landing is obviously still way better when possible, but sometimes you're trapped at the ledge or worried about another option and won't want to move predictably out of the way of their attack.

i talked to him at apex for a bit and he has the right analytic mindset that the character needs.

Care to elaborate on what this mentality entails?

You know what I hate

That feeling when you realize you can't keep up with your opponents pace of play

Partly because your hands are struggling to keep up, but also because they are cycling through options so fast your brain is overwhelmed too

Makes me feel like an inferior human :/

Idk what you're complaining. No one can keep up with that Crimson Blur of sexy movement. You just need to actually try attacking. ;P

 

[Dr Peepee]

You know what I hate

That feeling when you realize you can't keep up with your opponents pace of play

Partly because your hands are struggling to keep up, but also because they are cycling through options so fast your brain is overwhelmed too

Makes me feel like an inferior human :/

Slow the pace of the game more then.

Slower DDs, maybe more WD'ing, occasional poking to make them respect your range. There are ways to adjust for slower reaction times.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I've played axe with marth too. Since I live 2 hours from phoenix I go to tourneys every now and then and I couldn't do anything to axe with marth. He's just broken in that matchup. My fox did a hundred times better

marth is probably (im about 95% sure) axe's most-played matchup.

he seems busted in that matchup because he's an incredible player in addition to the fact that it's probably his most familiar matchup, so he's going to be able to outplay you in more instances than if you used fox.

your fox did 100x better because contrary to popular belief, axe is not very comfortable with the fox matchup. there are a grand total of zero modern and relevant foxes in arizona.

the fact that he's even half as successful against fox as he is is just a testament to how far his punishment/edgeguard game can carry him. it also displays how his hyper-aggressive playstyle allows him to minimize fox's ability to prance around and be fox. imo he's missing a lot of nitty-gritty intrinsic knowledge in the fox MU, and i think it shows.

Slow the pace of the game more then.

Slower DDs, maybe more WD'ing, occasional poking to make them respect your range. There are ways to adjust for slower reaction times.

do you have any advice on when you should be poking? i feel like a large reason i got so thoroughly destroyed by mango at apex was because i wasn't sharp enough when it came to knowing when to use my sword. i either used it when it had no chance of hitting him (giving him even more free reign to dance all over me) or when it was kinda obvious that i would swing, and i wasn't exactly sure what i needed to do to more effectively establish my opponent's respect for my sword.

 

[clowsui]

no experience playing at a high level esp w melee but i would venture to guess that at that point it's about being even better at movement and reacting to his movement. neat thing about marth is his range/disjoint advantage - once the opponent chooses to try to counteract your aggressive/defensive movements, they open themselves up to hitbox (though you'd have to be precise w the hitbox).

a specific example might help in this case

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTF6OZ8ZNhg

naaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrr

 

[clowsui]

man did you see how many times bam sdi'd that nair lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

Slow the pace of the game more then.

Slower DDs, maybe more WD'ing, occasional poking to make them respect your range. There are ways to adjust for slower reaction times.

Adding to this for Crimson, if you find that whenever you run backward you still get hit, just run forward instead.

If neither options work, then either your opponent is reading you everytime, reacting to you inhumanly, or you're just not dash dancing properly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

do you have any advice on when you should be poking? i feel like a large reason i got so thoroughly destroyed by mango at apex was because i wasn't sharp enough when it came to knowing when to use my sword. i either used it when it had no chance of hitting him (giving him even more free reign to dance all over me) or when it was kinda obvious that i would swing, and i wasn't exactly sure what i needed to do to more effectively establish my opponent's respect for my sword.

Poke when you do anything at the same spacing as before, but instead do that thing at a different time.

Don't always swing to hit, zoning is fine. Mango is not going to DD a lot like many players will. He's hitting a lot of separate timings in a small span of time by waiting for you to swing and then deciding if you're actually going to do it or not. Basically, learn to recognize when HE'S waiting and HE'S attacking and try to manipulate that. Your offense will be most effective when you're seeing how he's trying to defend against your threats, and your defense will be most effective when you observe how he moves before he attacks and what he's looking for when he attacks.

 

[Tarv]

Edit: Ignore this post. Biting off more than I can chew yet again.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Poke when you do anything at the same spacing as before, but instead do that thing at a different time.

not quite sure what you're trying to say here cuz of the awkward language. are you just saying to mix up my timing/stimuli?

by the way, what exactly is your definition of a poke? in your terms, what's the difference between a poke and zoning?

 

[Deleted member]

You know what I hate

That feeling when you realize you can't keep up with your opponents pace of play

Partly because your hands are struggling to keep up, but also because they are cycling through options so fast your brain is overwhelmed too

Makes me feel like an inferior human :/

slow down your play and choose your movement more carefully, lean on less aggressive movement until you can force your opponent to slow down, then go back to aggressive movement patterns once they're forced to match you. you can do this by forcing your opponent to respect your options when you slow down your movement, and the most obvious example i can think of is relying on WD back > observe like a crutch.

edit: god ****ing dammit kevin

 

[BTmoney]

Yo, PP

• If you are facing a campy opponent (or you need to approach) would you consider SHDF safe or is marth's issue with landing aerials a problem?
• How safe are fairs on shield tipper or not? (I assume you want to space a tipper so you don't get shield grabbed and or fade backwards)
• Do you still play fox?

I personally think nair approaches aren't the best idea but I see it a lot.

I don't get to play anyone at my skill level anymore. My training partner quit
I mostly practice my fox tech skill now.

 

[SpiderMad]

Is SHFairUpair ever superior to SHDF in some kind of situation? I heard it's always a worse thing to do just for style because of less damage or something. Basically I have no clue about their differences and uses.

 

[Deleted member]

Kevin I'm going to give you your birthday present on Sunday in text form. In the mean time, let's see how many people know when your birthday is

 

[BTmoney]

Is SHFairUpair ever superior to SHDF in some kind of situation? I heard it's always a worse thing to do just for style because of less damage or something. Basically I have no clue about their differences and uses.

Well you can juggle people and carry them in the air and across the stage (especially fast fallers) if you get a sh fair -> uair. It's mainly seen as a follow up to the chain grab on spacies if you can get it on a flat land.

I'm assuming you then follow it up with a reverse utilt to get them off the stage. I could be completely wrong about the utilt but this is what I remember.

 

[knightpraetor]

is shdf safe?

what does this even mean?

and secondly, moves should always be divided into their components. You shouldn't even be asking that; you should be asking is rising fair safe.

generally the answer is no, the more campy the opponent is the less you want to be using rising fairs. However, the slower characters can have difficulty punishing it.

sh fair into falling upair is better than shdf in most low percent situations. At mid percent it also functions as a mixup because if they di out they end up being thrown over the edge and you run over DJ spike them for DIing your combo away.

 

[Dr Peepee]

not quite sure what you're trying to say here cuz of the awkward language. are you just saying to mix up my timing/stimuli?

by the way, what exactly is your definition of a poke? in your terms, what's the difference between a poke and zoning?

I had to say something broad to respond to your broad question.
Basically, yeah you're right, but I don't know how to break it down any better without going on a million tangents. Fox waiting beats your swing, swinging beats him doing something, and him doing something beats you setting up to swing/your swing lag. Knowing that makes it easier to think of mixups imo.

And a poke is like mildly aggressive zoning. Zoning is more broad and refers to you protecting your own space and keeping the threat of your moves alive.

edit: god ****ing dammit kevin

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO

<3

Yo, PP

• If you are facing a campy opponent (or you need to approach) would you consider SHDF safe or is marth's issue with landing aerials a problem?
• How safe are fairs on shield tipper or not? (I assume you want to space a tipper so you don't get shield grabbed and or fade backwards)
• Do you still play fox?

I personally think nair approaches aren't the best idea but I see it a lot.

I don't get to play anyone at my skill level anymore. My training partner quit
I mostly practice my fox tech skill now.

1. SHDF is generally NOT safe but you can make it safeish sometimes if you really want to. It's part of the issue with landing aerials.

2. That question is ridiculously broad so I'll respond to the specifics you posted. Tipper Fairs are really safe pretty much even when rising(depending on opponent's character and shield DI.)
I would NOT always suggest tippering Fairs on shield, but then again I rarely suggest always doing something anyway lol.

3. Yes and Fox is awesome and fun and fast but no one asks me about Fox only Marth and sometimes Falco.

4. Nair approaches aren't that good. In fact they're actually kinda bad especially since they're overused.

5. Build your local scene! Recruit!

Kevin I'm going to give you your birthday present on Friday in text form. In the mean time, let's see how many people know when your birthday is

Thanks dude!

is shdf safe?

what does this even mean?

and secondly, moves should always be divided into their components. You shouldn't even be asking that; you should be asking is rising fair safe.

generally the answer is no, the more campy the opponent is the less you want to be using rising fairs. However, the slower characters can have difficulty punishing it.

sh fair into falling upair is better than shdf in most low percent situations. At mid percent it also functions as a mixup because if they di out they end up being thrown over the edge and you run over DJ spike them for DIing your combo away.

I like the way you answered this.

 

[knightpraetor]

marth is pretty cool. not sure what relevance that has to his matchups..but if you are playing for style then he is up there with falcon

I realized that since I am not playing marth anymore I should mention taht one thing I regretted never getting a chance to incorporate into my game was shield stop fading nair. autocancel nairs are already god tier for camping, but the ability to cancel momentum with shield into a retreating AC nair is god tier level good for dealing with fox.

(note that my tips always involve playing marth better vs chars I don't play. I keep getting this urge to correct people when they say wrong things on the boards about peach, but gotta resist helping my opponents...reminds me of that old edgeguarding post by foxes on dealing with marth's recovery...to think how much more difficult my life would have been if i had actually corrected their misconceptions)

speaking of which, you should spread misconceptions about marth, tell everyone he is horrendous and that you can easily counter X with Y (pick something that works at low levels) and then in tourney you just wreck them with Z.

True metagaming

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@KP: What do you hope to achieve with shield and when to execute the Nair?

Is SHFairUpair ever superior to SHDF in some kind of situation? I heard it's always a worse thing to do just for style because of less damage or something. Basically I have no clue about their differences and uses.

Just look at what the moves do. Uair, less horizontal range while it hits people near vertical. Fair is either near vertical or away from you while having more horizontal range. If you get the first Fair to connect and they DI in, Uair can hit otherwise it won't.

Really doesn't matter too much, but Fair->Uair -> grab is pretty sick.

 

[knightpraetor]

I think you're misunderstanding me. The shield is only to cancel your momentum, your goal is to have it up for only one frame. it serves as a method of incrementally taking space and then guarding it..to many marths take space with a dash in and then dash back only to get hit by an overshot nair. PP throws in dtilts to make it hard for the fox to achieve a ground approach after taking space, but one of the problems i always faced when playing marth vs fox was that they eventually realize ground approach is not good when there are dtilts everywhere (though i still think dtilt is more important vs fox than AC nair) and use nair (though they have to be careful of when to jump cause dtilt is tooo good). You could just use dash forward retreating rising fair as well, but i think nair is harder to get through.

hmm, how to explain, rising fair doesn't cover on the way down without throwing out another fair, but the AC nair does it without truly committing because 4 frames of lag ain't jack (play peach and you'll understand)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Odd thought on that. Shield during a run will not cancel the momentum you have while running. Once you jump to cancel the shield, you'll still carry some amount of forward momentum.

Its only from the initial dash that you will cancel any of your momentum once you cancel the shield and go into the jump squat -> jump. So what you are talking about would have a limited range of Marth's initial dash.

Not sure where you would incorporate that exactly.

 

[Bing]

I'm bad and like to be fancy so I mix up fairs, dtilts and bairs. Yes bairs.

 

[knightpraetor]

well, i meant from dash anyway, if you're only taking a small bit of space you aren't going to get into a full run. Sorry about the misuse of the word though.

But regardless, it's important to be able to make small precise changes in your position and shield does that well; is it even possible to be in a fast dash forward and do nair moving backwards? My understanding was that you would have to stop your dash before you hit jump or you cannot fully retreat. I use dashing forward retreating rising fair at times, but honestly the pull back is not nearly as good and the spacing is less precise.

 

[Tee ay eye]

PP what differentiates good zoning and bad swinging

 

[Winston]

(note that my tips always involve playing marth better vs chars I don't play. I keep getting this urge to correct people when they say wrong things on the boards about peach, but gotta resist helping my opponents...reminds me of that old edgeguarding post by foxes on dealing with marth's recovery...to think how much more difficult my life would have been if i had actually corrected their misconceptions)

I feel like you are greatly overestimating most people's ability to recognize correct advice and implement it.

 

[Bones0]

Also, you're only doing yourself a disservice because you won't improve by beating noobs with gimmicks. Maybe you'll do a little better at tournaments because one of the people you beat misunderstood the matchup, but then you're just going to keep losing to the people better than you because you have no relevant practice in certain aspects from worse players.

 

[knightpraetor]

Also, you're only doing yourself a disservice because you won't improve by beating noobs with gimmicks. Maybe you'll do a little better at tournaments because one of the people you beat misunderstood the matchup, but then you're just going to keep losing to the people better than you because you have no relevant practice in certain aspects from worse players.

If you don't get to play with an opponent regularly you should take no interest in their progress unless they happen to your friend. You aren't going to improve cause of one or two sets in tourney with a stranger (if you do it's probably from something that totally changed the way you view the game rather than learning better option coverage). I make it a point to mention things to mahone to make sure he is on top of everything, and I help other people if doing so means that my eyes will burn less (i can't even bear watching my own videos; how could i bear watching someone worse than me play marth). But otherwise, I see no reason to make my life harder, and everyone keeps some information to themselves. The part about posting false things to maintain false beliefs was mostly joking, but i don't see the reason to correct people's misconceptions on smash boards unless they are really new and deserve a little help for the community's sake. Everyone else I expect to put in some work to understand the game. I spend 4 hrs testing recoveries and edgeguards for one matchup alone; why should i explain what i find out in testing? They can do the exact same thing. if their testing was flawed or contained errors, so be it.

of course there are exceptions; marth players try to help marth players, as there is no harm in helping people who play your character help advance the character quicker. But now that I play peach I can't very well be making my life harder for no reason. That said, the peach boards seem pretty useless in comparison to the marth boards, but that's ok. we have armada videos.

i also play falco now, so my loyalties feel very divided.

There is plenty of good generic advice on the boards or advice that you can help others who main your char with to increase their punish game. You should just be hesitant to explain the weaknesses of your char and the ways to deal with stuff.

This is probably one of the main reasons that even when people whine about matchups they are never very specific. Being specific means that other people implement that same strategy and now you have 9 people using it against you instead of just one.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think you're misunderstanding me. The shield is only to cancel your momentum, your goal is to have it up for only one frame. it serves as a method of incrementally taking space and then guarding it..to many marths take space with a dash in and then dash back only to get hit by an overshot nair. PP throws in dtilts to make it hard for the fox to achieve a ground approach after taking space, but one of the problems i always faced when playing marth vs fox was that they eventually realize ground approach is not good when there are dtilts everywhere (though i still think dtilt is more important vs fox than AC nair) and use nair (though they have to be careful of when to jump cause dtilt is tooo good). You could just use dash forward retreating rising fair as well, but i think nair is harder to get through.

hmm, how to explain, rising fair doesn't cover on the way down without throwing out another fair, but the AC nair does it without truly committing because 4 frames of lag ain't jack (play peach and you'll understand)

I dtilt little vs Fox and opt for more Nairs vs him as a staple strategy until I have his respect.

PP what differentiates good zoning and bad swinging

whew what a question!

Good zoning is using moves out of movement or in place to protect yourself or to establish a visual cue/threat for the opponent to observe. This can also be kind of useful in gaining momentum but I'll leave that alone for now.

Good zoning also implies differentiated timings and spacings for said moves and movements.

More specifically, good zoning attacks when the opponent may attack or be used so the opponent understands the threat of your attack in order to gain stage. Good zoning could also be used to keep the opponent away since he understands you are covering your space in a strong but wide variety of ways(the number of actual moves used can be small but the number of ways you use them can be wide.)


Bad swinging is using moves done in fear, without consideration to what you have been doing, swinging at similar times and spacings OR only varying one of those things.

 

[Beat!]

I realized that since I am not playing marth anymore I should mention taht one thing I regretted never getting a chance to incorporate into my game was shield stop fading nair. autocancel nairs are already god tier for camping, but the ability to cancel momentum with shield into a retreating AC nair is god tier level good for dealing with fox.

Yeah, shield stop nair is good.

 

[Tee ay eye]

kevin are you gonna shave your beard on stream

since we broke 25k

 

[ShroudedOne]

Man, the Peach boards were once a place of beauty. *sniffle*

 

[Bones0]

There's no point in making him shave it. He is a wizard, so it will just grow back overnight like Harry Potter's hair.

He also has a peepee-shaped scar on his forehead.

 

[BTmoney]

2. That question is ridiculously broad so I'll respond to the specifics you posted. Tipper Fairs are really safe pretty much even when rising(depending on opponent's character and shield DI.)

More specifically, good zoning attacks when the opponent may attack or be used so the opponent understands the threat of your attack in order to gain stage. Good zoning could also be used to keep the opponent away since he understands you are covering your space in a strong but wide variety of ways(the number of actual moves used can be small but the number of ways you use them can be wide.)

I see, and thanks. I suppose I could have phrased my question better.

I was really asking that from a zoning perspective even though I asked it incorrectly. If I am understanding what I see, then FF falling fairs spaced tipper-units away or further seem to be a pretty consistent and safe way to make your opponent respect your spacing. I also believe that empty hops and wavelands should be used more if you are in an imposing position and your opponent is waiting on you. Rebuttal?




And trollol. Look at M2k doing exactly what I was describing before with the WD light shield.
at 11:03 ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIz5biRFTMQ
It looks like he hesitated switching his shield (to shield grab)
But yeah

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

PP is shaving if I recall. He always needed help when it came to his beard decisions.

 

[FrootLoop]

And trollol. Look at M2k doing exactly what I was describing before with the WD light shield.
at 11:03 ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIz5biRFTMQ
It looks like he hesitated switching his shield (to shield grab) or didn't want to go on the offensive from that position.
But yeah

He just tried to grab too early and was still in WD lag so he got LS instead of grab. Then he shielded when he realized he messed up.

 

[Divinokage]

I hate when that happens..

 

[Dr Peepee]

kevin are you gonna shave your beard on stream

since we broke 25k

*** I GUESS SO

when's this stream starting tonight I got papa john's to eat

I see, and thanks. I suppose I could have phrased my question better.

I was really asking that from a zoning perspective even though I asked it incorrectly. If I am understanding what I see, then FF falling fairs spaced tipper-units away or further seem to be a pretty consistent and safe way to make your opponent respect your spacing. I also believe that empty hops and wavelands should be used more if you are in an imposing position and your opponent is waiting on you. Rebuttal?




And trollol. Look at M2k doing exactly what I was describing before with the WD light shield.
at 11:03 ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIz5biRFTMQ
It looks like he hesitated switching his shield (to shield grab)
But yeah

If someone shields vs you then you don't have to really worry about safety. You're Marth and outrange them anyway. If you want to stay tipper Fair range away then cool, but they should learn to respect your range from a variety of options you have at that point.

 

[Beat!]

I am so going to EVO and Genesis 3. I don't even know how much money I'll have, but one way or another, I'm gonna save up enough. See ya guys there.

 

[Bing]

I didnt get to see PP shave his beard and I was on the VG channel until like 2am EST. I'm a sad Panda.

Also how safe is u-throw to DJ dair near the ledge at about 60%. I havent missed it on a Fox yet but I'm just curious if I should eliminate that from my actions now.

 

[Bones0]

If it combos, why would you stop doing it? lol