Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tarv]

Except for when it is

and well then Tarv, looks like your marth will die prematurely to cancer and his teeth will yellow

Didn't you hear the news from Prog? Cancer is done. And if it means winning a tournament I'll take the yellow teeth, but it'll probably be because my teeth will be filled with shreds of pikachu. (Too violent?)

Seriously though, I love this whole idea of trying to "solve" Marth and make him the best he can be. That's what's inspiring to me, the idea that there's something more to the character and how everyone (mostly everyone) wants to push Marth's potential one way or the other. That's what's exciting to me.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Not a Marth main, but I used to be.

Just wanted to say the discussion in this thread makes me wish I mained Marth again again... Or that pp mained sheik.

And IB beat hax in tournament at apex 2010. He's really good in the falcon match up and one of my favorite Marths in general. Haven't seen him play much though since then

 

[MT_]

My best moment at Apex 2013: breaking Axe's shield in a money match.

 

[AustinRC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-LHEn3p5PY&list=UU1OoIWMRWyKRjH32i36AfXg&index=9

Any critique would be helpful. I know I should have used dtilt a LOT more but other than that I'd still like some insight, I still need to cut a lot of fat around my overall game play.

Thank you.

 

[BTmoney]

It's a little too late/early in the morning for me to want to form coherent thoughts right now lol. You're probably better than me but I'll give you all the unbiased feedback I can. I can say already I like your grab game




And this is something I just started messing around with. I've never really seen a marth do this.

1. WD forward
2. hold Z to light shield (hold Z as soon as the WD initiates so it comes out as fast as possible)
3. while holding Z hold and switch to L/R (normal shield)
4. shield grab/abuse your ridiculous grab range

It's like being able to walk and shield grab.
I know people switch between light and full shield all the time but this is smexy-er and is an approach option.
If you space it correctly it works very well and you are hard to punish because you can outrange a lot of attacks in the neutral game (where you would be using this) and this is an easy and safe approach in various situations. Also you outrange the entire (viable other than samus) cast's grabs so they can't grab you first. If you don't feel safe going for the shieldgrab just WD Oos back/away.

Versus spacies with good/fast shield pressure you want to space it so they will be on the tip of your light shield or grab them when they reach it. If they are close in on you and doing their typical shield pressure you can't shield grab because shine's come out faster than your grab (basically just reiterating why you can't always shield grab spacie shield pressure)

I imagine this also works well with character's with long WD lengths like Luigi. But it seems to be most viable with Marth with his combination of good WD length and ridiculous grab range.
I'm actually excited about this
It is likely I wasn't the first ever to do this but I feel like this has been undeveloped.

Am I making sense?

 

[FrootLoop]

When I want to wavedash into shield I just don't let go of L from when I pressed it to wavedash. How is your way better?

 

[BTmoney]

Light shield hardly ever get's poked and is usually more full. This isn't ground breaking but I think it's more than useful. Not to mention light shield is bigger. It allows you to space your grab better imo. This is safer and gives you the option to stay in your light shield (which I think is underrated), switch to normal and SG, or WD Oos. Normal shield gives you two options, this gives you three. Also you can stay in light shield much longer which makes it a better option if you are ever approaching with a shield up.

I don't think sliding into an opponent with a normal shield is a good idea all the time, especially if you keep on doing it due to how fast it degenerates.
It work's fine when used appropriately but it is not a consistent and reliable technique because chances are your L shield isn't fully healthy.
Light shield is basically always enough to keep you covered.
This also takes all the difficult out of having good shield DI and guesswork on how fast your shield regenerates.

 

[FrootLoop]

I think it's crap. It gives up loads of your own options (movement and actual moves) and what does it even beat? Light shield or full. (although I think light shield is worse because you slide and have more stun iirc so you basically can't ever grab anything no matter what)

 

[BTmoney]

I think it's crap. It gives up loads of your own options (movement and actual moves)
Such as? I believe it only takes 1 frame to be able to switch from light shield to normal shield
and what does it even beat?
A Peach who is floating on ground level or slightly above. If she attacks your shield she will get grabbed (switching from Z to L is beyond easy). You can get in on a floating peach with your light shield. Once again the fact that you can stay in light shield for a long time is very helpful. That is unless Peach can somehow break your light shield with her aerials (which she can't). It's mostly for stage control, your opponent basically has to back away or jump over you. If you space the shield right you can get a grab off because you outrange a lot of things. If they attack you, you shield grab. If you are facing fast/good shield pressure from fox and falco specifically then this is marginally less useful if they opt to shield pressure you every time. Although you still have the option to shield grab. Also because it is a light shield, you slide more when you get hit. When you are getting shield pressured you might possibly slide backwards into a more comfortable range. After sliding from multiple hits, you might be able to get a shield grab off. That is a possibility but I would need to test that
Light shield or full. (although I think light shield is worse because you slide and have more stun iirc so you basically can't ever grab anything no matter what)
If you want to grab or anticipate you will get a grab off, you switch to normal shield. Which once again, as far as I know only takes 1 frame and keeps you safe or at least more safe than in a normal shield.

I'm open for discussion, I think this is useful.

What is your opponent supposed to do? If they are facing you they can't approach you. They have to back up or jump over you.
Even if this isn't as good as I think it is, it's not crap. I never said to stop fairing and light shield WD all the time.

When I want to wavedash into shield I just don't let go of L from when I pressed it to wavedash. How is your way better?

And furthermore this is not crap, you acknowledge right here that there are times where you want to WD in to a shield. As far as I can tell, after thinking about it this is better than that in almost every way and should always be done with a light shield first. The only way it could ever be worse is if when your light shield got hit (which really it doesn't even need to get hit because you can switch to normal shield) and you slid too much and had too much shieldstun to be able to shield grab from a situation where you normally could have. But once again, your light shield doesn't even need to get hit since you can switch from light to L shield without ever dropping your shield.

 

[FrootLoop]

Shielding at all gives up dash, walk, crouch, jab, all tilts, fsmash, and dsmash. You can no longer out-move them, and worse you can't do you best neutral swing(s) anyway. This hugely restricts your options and threat range.

Your example seems lame too, you can't shield grab float cancelled nair/fair, they give frame advantage. They don't have to back away, your range becomes smaller than theirs. They get to start making the threats and all the while your shield is shrinking.

The only thing it would beat is poorly placed aerials which lose to movement anyway.

 

[BTmoney]

You acknowledged that there is a time to WD into a shield. I could have possibly edited that post while you were typing. You may want to look at it again.

EDIT:

When I want to wavedash into shield I just don't let go of L from when I pressed it to wavedash. How is your way better?

And furthermore this is not crap, you acknowledge right here that there are times where you want to WD in to a shield. As far as I can tell, after thinking about it this is better than that in almost every way and should always be done with a light shield first. The only way it could ever be worse is if when your light shield got hit (which really it doesn't even need to get hit because you can switch to normal shield) and you slid too much and had too much shieldstun to be able to shield grab from a situation where you normally could have. But once again, your light shield doesn't even need to get hit since you can switch from light to L shield without ever dropping your shield.

 

[FrootLoop]

You acknowledged that there is a time to WD into a shield. I could have possibly edited that post while you were typing. You may want to look at it again.

I was just talking about button press to achieve WD into shield. The only time I would even think about it would be to be more mobile against lasers. As an approach or basically all other situations I believe it's terrible and I'm not even sold on vs lasers

 

[BTmoney]

So

Versus:

• lasers (which really isn't a bad idea esp against fox)
• ledge attacks, ledge aerials
• You could even WD into a shield on a fox or falco who didn't sweet spot the ledge on their fox or firebird and grab or pivot grab them. You can correct your spacing while staying safe. Grabbing them out of their firefox/bird is unnecessary imo.
• You could do this to impose an edge guarding position versus fox and falco's illusion. If you aren't perfect at the ledge already, you can WD forward into shield. If they illusion on the stage you would WD Oos and can easily grab again or attempt whatever. This is easy if you are good at WD Oos.
• tech chases/opponent on the ground (shielding infront of a downed opponent is great since you can shield grab the get up attack.
• Peach who isn't playing perfectly and spacing perfect (because everyone is frame perfect. yes she most likely has frame advantage but I imagine that it cant be so large that this is never viable)

That is just off of the top of my head. This isn't useless. It's not the most useful thing, almost like moonwalking but it certainly has a place.

 

[MT_]

How was wave dashing into shield any better than dash or walk into shield? The only thing I can think of is possibly being able to mix up dtilt after wave dash instead of shield but the situations call for entirely different spacings... Wave dashing into shield (especially as an approach or method to gain stage control) quite honestly seems like a really bad idea, almost to the point I would be suspecting you of trolling lol.

Also it seems that your knowledge of light shielding isn't very complete. You're not going to be able to shield grab anything by anyone competent from a light shield due to the increased shield stun (gives your opponent MORE frame advantage) and sliding that results from light shielding.

 

[BTmoney]

I disagree with you MT_

Also it seems that your knowledge of light shielding isn't very complete. You're not going to be able to shield grab anything by anyone competent from a light shield due to the increased shield stun (gives your opponent MORE frame advantage) and sliding that results from light shielding.

blah blah blah...The only way it could ever be worse is if when your light shield got hit (which really it doesn't even need to get hit because you can switch to normal shield easily by holding Z and pushing L/whatever)...blah blah blah

I think it is substantially easier to wd forward/backward and hold Z to achieve a light shield while getting to where you want to go than it is to walk or dash into a light shield. Especially while pressured. If you think otherwise, well you have damn soft hands.

An under lying point is that I feel that light shielding is usually a better defensive option than the normal shield.
The point of light shielding is to not get shield poked and it degenerates substantially slower.
I never said get your light shield hit.

I light shield and switch shields all the time. When shielding, obviously, the only thing your opponent can do to you is grab you OR wait for your shield to degenerate. If you normal shield you have much less time to think and you put yourself on a clock. If you are anticipating a hit, it is easy and fast to switch if you are used to doing it.

 

[FrootLoop]

vs
fox lasers: terrible. You get pinned down like vs falco lasers and he still gets to have fox speed? no thanks
falco lasers: not as an approach. Maybe WD away to reset spacing into full shielding a laser to escape but thats it.
ledge attacks/aerials: lose to spacing farther away anyway so no reason to give up all your tools.
illusion recovery: This might not be the worst but there's other good choices for marth. No reason to light shield.
tech chase: Maybe, I like to try to react to get up attack with shield instead of starting with it since it's easier to chase rolls. However this could be okay. Again, no reason to light shield.
peach FC aerial: FC fair is like +4 I think so you're definitely not shield grabbing it ever.

 

[MT_]

Shield(grabs) can be used offensively if you condition the opponent into throwing out their aerials earlier than is safe on shield with your superior range. Strictly defensively, yes light shield is better than a full shield but you will quickly lose stage space and as a result stage control (and frame advantage in general). But you throw away your offensive mixup by using a light shield which really does not gain you anything.

I can see it possibly working as some sort of gimmicky bait but probably nothing more than that.

 

[FrootLoop]

if you're not planning on getting it hit then why are you lightshielding in the first place?

 

[BTmoney]

@Frootloop

Because you either you don't degenerate your full shield with light shielding (I don't know if that is true) OR while light shielding your full shield degenerates much slower (which is at least true). It doesn't matter which one of those 2 options are true as long as 1 of them are (which at least one of them is). You can get it hit usually just fine (from years of playing that works out on weak attacks at least) and switch to L and SG. Once again you want to be in a light shield first because it is a better defensive option. Switching to a normal shield when you are about to get hit, if you want, is mindless, fast and easy. That is why.
You can hold your light shield for X + Y seconds while you can hold your normal shield for X seconds. I don't see how that alone doesn't justify merit.

+4 frames is .06 repeating seconds btw, I wouldn't call that huge although it is exploitable

@MT_

For any situation where you want to shield I don't see how light shielding would give up more than stage control than a normal shield.
I must not be understanding your point.


My points are these:

• Light shielding is usually a better idea
• Light shielding on the movie (dash-> light shield every time you want to get it) is very difficult to do. If you think otherwise you have soft hands
• Even if that is easy, this is more consistent
• Light shield more
• For every situation where you want to shield, what is the problem getting out a light shield if you have the time to get it out?
• This is at worst an easier way to get out more light shields while standing or while moving a certain distance. If your enemy makes the mistakes of hitting you improperly or not spacing correctly you get a easy switch shield SG.
• Switching shields is extremely fast and easy
• If you don't believe light shielding is useful, then talk about that

If you are capable of get every light shield that you want when you want then this is useless. If you are not, it is not useless.
If you can do retreating fairs and non FF dairs with ease 100% of the time, why ever use the C-stick for aerials? Same concept.
Is non FF dairs with A and retreating fairs with A super difficult? Not at all is C-stick easier for that? Yes.
Do we all understand how easy it is to switch to a normal shield from a light shield without dropping shield?
Just wondering, do other people not switch shields often in normal gameplay? I think it is very useful and I do it all the time.
Please do not take me as condescending or pretentious. I am just trying to explain myself and understand you all.

I want to reiterate that is not an end all be all approach method. Hell it might not even be good approach method, but there are applications when you delve into the reasons and times where you want to light shield. I am willing and ready to accept the notion that this might be completely horrible to approach with. But this is not useless. Especially not defensively. I appreciate the both of you critiquing this.

 

[FrootLoop]

I don't think you have given any good reasons/examples of lightshield use.
If it's gonna get hit you can't hope for an advantage due to the stun + slide + shield's not great anyway. If it's not gonna get hit there's much better uses for that time that aren't so limiting.

your strat led you from neutral to peach being +4 on your shield. That is not a good strategy.

 

[BTmoney]

@Frootloop

My points are these:

• Light shielding is usually a better idea
• Light shielding on the movie (dash-> light shield every time you want to get it) is very difficult to do. If you think otherwise you have soft hands
• Even if that is easy, this is more consistent
• Light shield more
• For every situation where you want to shield, what is the problem getting out a light shield if you have the time to get it out?
• This is at worst an easier way to get out more light shields while standing or while moving a certain distance. If your enemy makes the mistakes of hitting you improperly or not spacing correctly you get a easy switch shield SG.
• Switching shields is extremely fast and easy
• If you don't believe light shielding is useful, then talk about that

If you are capable of get every light shield that you want when you want then this is useless. If you are not, it is not useless.
If you can do retreating fairs and non FF dairs with ease 100% of the time, why ever use the C-stick for aerials? Same concept.
I want to reiterate that is not an end all be all approach method. Hell it might not even be good approach method, but there are applications when you delve into the reasons and times where you want to light shield. I am willing and ready to accept the notion that this might be completely horrible to approach with. But this is not useless. Especially not defensively. I appreciate the both of you critiquing this.

Strictly defensively, yes light shield is better than a full shield

Do I need to explain the uses of a light shield or why anyone should ever light shield?
And I don't need that peach example. I don't need to cling on to any of the examples or approach methods.

You can however address my points behind the concept.

 

[FrootLoop]

I think shielding is basically not good, and lightshield doesn't really solve any of it's main problems. If I had time before I had to shield I'd probably use it to get out of having to shield at all.

 

[BTmoney]

One major problem with shielding is that it shatters with time.
Another problem is the fact that since it shrinks you are covered less.

Light shielding address both of those. Light shielding also mitigates both of those for when you do switch to normal shield. I think you are undermining the shield game.

• For every situation where you want to shield and the difference in shield stun isn't game changing, what is the problem getting out a light shield if you have the time to get it out?

I don't see how you can argue with that

 

[Deleted member]

why are you guys talking about shield when marth's shield sucks?

 

[BTmoney]

Because ideas, and theories, and feels

 

[Deleted member]

time in shield for marth is time when you're not trapping or killing your opponent. i guess you can block obvious things when you **** up but you should get out of shield as fast as possible. marth has bad defenses, etc. i don't think light shield is useful, but then again the only advantage to heavy shield is that you can WD OOS back to neutral faster.

 

[FrootLoop]

If you have to shield either
A) You get to counterattack their bad move. Lightshield doesn't get this option.
or
B) You don't get to counterattack because they didn't do something bad, so now marth loses because he shielded regardless of what kind of shield it is. Shield is terrible so marth might as well gtfo asap like umbreon said.

 

[BTmoney]

If you have to shield either
A) You get to counterattack their bad move. Lightshield doesn't get this option.
or
B) You don't get to counterattack because they didn't do something bad, so now marth loses because he shielded regardless of what kind of shield it is. Shield is terrible so marth might as well gtfo asap like umbreon said.

Isn't that implying that there is never a reason to shield playing while playing marth or the opponent can't put you in a situation where you should?
Isn't that implying that counter always works over shield?
Isn't that implying that shield gets punished harder than a whiffed counterattack?
Isn't that implying that most all, if not every, marth player is playing him incorrectly?

And Umbreon, that among the other basic advantages to light shield.

I agree his full shield his bad. And switching from light shield to full shield without dropping shield is basically instant and marth has a good SG game (imo).

edit:
im going to sleep. lol.

 

[anlin_wang]

Tactician, did you make your name based off dominion?

 

[BTmoney]

Ok I lied. And I'm not sure what you mean lol. It's based off of fire emblem
/off topic

 

[FrootLoop]

Isn't that implying that there is never a reason to shield playing while playing marth or the opponent can't put you in a situation where you should?

pretty much

Isn't that implying that counter always works over shield?

I don't think so

Isn't that implying that shield gets punished harder than a whiffed counterattack?

I think marth basically gets messed up either way

Isn't that implying that most all, if not every, marth player is playing him incorrectly?

how so?

 

[SpiderMad]

How do I get better at SHDF

Should I be using side-b like Ken where he does them all?

Is there any time I "don't" want to hit with the tipper of his attacks?

 

[BTmoney]

@Frootloop I'll get to you later because that requires more thinking than answering this question and I am about to sleep.

@Spidermad
Try pushing Y and A in like a rocking motion with your thumb. Start it on Y and rock towards A. Basically as soon as marth gets out of the jump squat you want to push A. If you push the first A while he is in the jump squat, you will get a single fair.

Same concept as Waveshining imo. It's not all that hard but the timing is pretty finicky initially.

 

[Tee ay eye]

How do I get better at SHDF

Should I be using side-b like Ken where he does them all?

Is there any time I "don't" want to hit with the tipper of his attacks?

practice (or use Z)

unless you know your opponent's gonna DI the wrong way like a noob, no

yes; sometimes combos can only be extended with weak hits, or there's that classic marth trick where you hit them with a weak fair and then run behind them

 

[SpiderMad]

Do i want to spam the 2nd A input or time it?

 

[Tee ay eye]

you generally don't want to spam anything

although the first input is more important than the second one

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only time I could see shield being a decent option offensive pick might be on a platform and you do not have the time to get off of the platform. You can shield drop into an aerial. Shield drop Uair is rather nice if it could be pulled off consistently. Or abuse slipping off and retaliating with an aerial.

 

[Strong Badam]

I wish marth had a purple costume in this game. I'd definitely main him.

 

[Mahone]

Tactician, did you make your name based off dominion?

yooooooo, lets go son

http://dominion.isotropic.org/

lets make it high stakes, bet some real dubloons on it

just pm me if u wanna play

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You know what I hate

That feeling when you realize you can't keep up with your opponents pace of play

Partly because your hands are struggling to keep up, but also because they are cycling through options so fast your brain is overwhelmed too

Makes me feel like an inferior human :/