Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

as a marth player gets better he grabs more, and then as he gets even better he dtilts more, how much to do each one..the never ending question.

 

[clowsui]

just on like a basic game theory level

this is either strictly wrong or so basic it doesn't merit saying

like, if you're not taking into consideration the fact that an opponent expecting a move affects how likely it is to hit, you're wrong

and if you are and you're just saying that in one specific iteration of a situation you should use the move that's more likely to hit/will yield more fruitful results on average, well, duh.

just to clarify I know nothing about melee

but the post is so abstract and SO SIMPLE that that almost doesn't matter.

if it's so basic that it doesn't merit saying then WHY DO PEOPLE STILL PICK OPTIONS THAT ARE STRICTLY INFERIOR, EVEN AT TOP LEVELS OF PLAY

 

[ChivalRuse]

Random thing I was thinking about at a tourney yesterday. Running then wavedashing in place. It seems like it has some merit because it allows for both precision in spacing and can be opted out of mid-run, meaning you can still play very reactively.

 

[AustinRC]

^ I've actually been playing around with this a little myself. After hitting my opponent's shield or just hitting them with run in dtilt I'll run forward and wavedash in place just a little out of normal dtilt range and go from there.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just like it because it's really really clean. Makes me feel like I can position myself perfectly for anything.

 

[Tee ay eye]

run up -> wd in place is amazing. it allows you to position yourself very precisely right out of your neutral game whenever you have found a range you want to place yourself in.

it works well in situations where a WD forward will be (without a shadow of a doubt) making an unnecessary play/overextending and a WD backwards will basically throw away that position you just spent all your time jocking for.

shielding works too, but you lose out on a lot of your ground options, surrendering a lot of pressure/stage presence.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Another thing is that wavedashing forward/backward gives you weird momentum when you try to dash right after. Wavedashing down doesn't.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Another thing is that wavedashing forward/backward gives you weird momentum when you try to dash right after. Wavedashing down doesn't.

dude that weird momentum is amazing too if you use it deliberately

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah it's pretty cool. It's like a pseudo moonwalk.

 

[BTmoney]

Well, I still find myself agreeing with Umbreon mostly if I am understanding him.
However, it is hard to criticize PP when his marth (which is fantastic) is the marth on blast.
PP also has his good points.
But I digress,

For every situation where you are
A units apart from your opponent horizontally
B units away vertically
You are doing C
And your opponent just did D
And the stage is like E

There is a best reaction you can have to it.
However, there are reasons why you may not want to do the best option.
Also, because we are humans it can be impossible to chose and execute the best option all of the time.
Also there are subjectively and objectively best options. They are not always the same.
(I think I hit this on the head right here ^^^^^^^^)


For example, you are marth vs fox on yoshi's story and you just grabbed fox by the ledge. Your back is facing the ledge.

This is the part where you do not need to criticize this specific example and MU but you need to understand my point

So imo dthrow is your best option to get that dirty fox in the edge guard-ee position. Now let's say in this match vs this player you have hard a hard time edge guarding the fox. The fox is just shine stalling, wall jumping, shortening his illusions, getting good firefox angles and even when you manage to hit the fox, he is getting his techs.

Your other options are to uthrow and go for the shffld uairs and trap him on the ledge or the CG.
(I suppose you could CG at the right % up and onto the side platforms on yoshi's with some slick wavelanding LOL)
Either of which will end in a dair spike. This is much more difficult however than jabbing or dtilting a recovering fox and has many more variables. However done right, it shuts down all defensive options.

Hell you could argue that either of those options are your best options but the point is there are reasons to opt for either.
It is also nearly impossible to weight these options mid game against any given player and any given MU.
This is the only place where theory fails; humans have limits.

 

[Tee ay eye]

just re-iterating, back when i learned about this in 2007, it was referred to as cactus-dashing, so i'll continue to refer to it as that until we come up with a better name.

a trick i like to do is...

wd forward -> cactus dash back to feign vulnerability

and whenever they try to go in on me....

wd forward (AWAY from your opponent), and then cactus dash back at your opponent in order to face him again

and then do a fair or nair to stuff their approach

the last cactus dash is pretty important because it stops you from overextending with your sh aerial

 

[Niko45]

Using an example where one char is at 130% and the other is at 0 is really skewed because yea, maybe in THAT situation being predictable doesn't matter since Falco can at best trade without a major mistake from Peach and a trade there = a loss, but if the %'s were flipped it would be different obviously. In general being predictable IS a factor and I think you can say that has a lot to do with what separates high tiers from top tiers and so on down the line because lots of characters have at least one or two good tools and as such will have an optimal decision to make for themselves but the fact that they are linear and limited in how many viable choices they can make, imo, is the foundation of why some characters are worse than others (other than things like first hit efficiency and punishing efficiency).

I hate general statements like "grab/dtilt more" because more accurately you need to really break down when you should grab in spots where you could but are not. In terms of neutral game, specifically, you need to be mindful of whether you are always grabbing in a specific situation or if you need to start using moves in spots where you were previously grabbing or grab where you were dtilt/whatevering. Hence the "mindgame/mixup".

 

[BTmoney]

I think when people say do X more it really should not be taken too literally.
It does not mean throw out X or just do it for the sake of doing it.
It just means that if you are given a choice between X and Y, opt for X more than Y.
Or chose X unless you have a reason to go for Y.

And sigh, someone say something controversial so we can talk about it.
Outside of this and a handful of threads people refuse to discuss things with any level of seriousness.
I find it saddening.

 

[Deleted member]

I couldn't get around it because I was an idiot and spacing way too far from him <.<

Are you sure? You don't really want him coming down on you either, if you look closely he has you at least decently well covered with an aerial no matter which route you take. That's why I thought it was so clever (and also why I told you on stage that I have no answer for it) so I'm not sure. You're the Falco expert and you know his spacing better than I do I suppose.

Well, I still find myself agreeing with Umbreon mostly if I am understanding him.
However, it is hard to criticize PP when his marth (which is fantastic) is the marth on blast.
PP also has his good points.

Hell you could argue that either of those options are your best options but the point is there are reasons to opt for either.
It is also nearly impossible to weight these options mid game against any given player and any given MU.
This is the only place where theory fails; humans have limits.

Yeah I love his marth play too. And I don't see it as "on blast" so much as constructive criticism and lots of thought. Although I'm biased in both regards lol

Humans definitely have limits. It's on you as a player to push your limits and to actively practice these skills. Are they easy? certainly not, but it's going to be free win percentages left and right against your peers that don't even try.

I think when people say do X more it really should not be taken too literally.
It does not mean throw out X or just do it for the sake of doing it.
It just means that if you are given a choice between X and Y, opt for X more than Y.
Or chose X unless you have a reason to go for Y.

And sigh, someone say something controversial so we can talk about it.
Outside of this and a handful of threads people refuse to discuss things with any level of seriousness.
I find it saddening.

I mean, you'd think that all of my stuff is obvious. I think it's obvious. That I have to verbalize it and receive the bull**** for it is more disheartening IMO.

I'm going to dip out of this stuff for a while. Maybe a week. I'll keep reading, but I have a lot to think about.

 

[BTmoney]

Don't go.

I/we need you

 

[knightpraetor]

basically what niko said.

marths have to adapt based on both percent and matchup a lot, so even the top level marths don't make optimum decisions in all matchups.

you don't always have time to check percent too. a lot of times people have general habitually followups that work in other matchups but then look stupid on stream because they aren't playing against a char they are used to

Marth is too hard

 

[Dr Peepee]

everyone has to adapt based on % and matchup and a bunch of other factors

Marth also gets it easier in inputs and escaping some situations/stalling momentum because of his body contortions and his range.

negativity isn't going to get this character from where everything continues to think he is to where he could be.

 

[BTmoney]

negativity isn't going to get this character from where everything continues to think he is to where he could be.

Could you restate that please? I didn't understand it

 

[ShroudedOne]

from where everyone continues to think he is*

Is what I assume he means.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Could you restate that please? I didn't understand it

Sure!

Everyone tends to think Marth is pretty bad now compared to how they used to. This is partly because of everyone seeing Marth as a character who "fell off," and so they continue to play and think of him as a character who has gotten worse instead of evaluating him as they see him without worrying about the modern perception of the character.

After Apex, there is some talk that Marth as a character is actually "coming back" or he could be again. This was never the case to me. I always saw Marth as good(generally....I doubted him for a while too but then played him more and changed my mind.) That view allowed me to expand my knowledge on Marth and take the character further than most/maybe all? have seen him taken.

Let me know if I need to finish connecting the dots, but basically what I'm saying is that Marth as a character will NEVER improve on the whole if people constantly think of him as bad or only view the perceived negative aspects of him. They will feel negative while thinking of him or playing as him. That's no good for improvement or productivity! In order to pick Marth up we need to evaluate him as he is, but as he is in his entirety, both the bad AND the good.


So yes, I understand that Marth is worried about percents and precision spacing, but let's not forget that he also gets a ton of sword to space WITH as well as some of the best(if not the best) movement options in the game which push his range and make it flexible. The problem can be minimized, so let's talk about that instead of simply listing problems and making sad faces.....because that solves nothing. I want the metagame to grow and I think everyone else here does too.

 

[Strong Badam]

dear keven,

when's marvel?

sincerely,
a good guy

 

[Deleted member]

aww, you're saying what i've been doing for 2 weeks. that's so cute. i think our little nest egg is growing.

/back to obscurity.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I did it with less words I'm winning

(<3)

 

[BTmoney]

Okay PP. That's what I thought you were saying.
That's also how I feel about marth

*gets excited for more pp marth*

 

[Theftz22]

I don't know how anyone could play this character and not feel good about his ability and potential.

But maybe that just comes from me maining luigi.

 

[Tarv]

Guys, Marth is an awesome character. I mean the guy has a sword, no no, the BEST sword, a freaking magical 20 ft long grab range, and probably looks the coolest while doing a 0-to death combo. Not to mention that he has the all mighty dtilt which seems to be the solution to everything ever.

Marth is good, we're all just terrible with him.

 

[AustinRC]

It's baffling to me how people complain about Marth. They'll blame their character, certain circumstances and anything they can to justify being bad with the character. Axe plays ****ing pikachu and instead of *****ing about it he got REALLY good with him and figured many crazy things about his character. Instead of making excuses and Johning about his character he used that time to improve upon himself and his ability to control and use his character.

 

[strawhats]

Compendium of Marth footage from Apex: Long live Eclipsing Binary!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PsS0td5DEY (vs.Samus, Ktoy too strongz)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ycmCViQ2uY (vs. Samus...Ktoy, why u soo good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTF6OZ8ZNhg (PPU beating up on falcos lately)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVijm8o4okI (I.B. vs RockCrock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-LHEn3p5PY (Arc is solid as **** vs Sheik) Taking copious notes on this match...'specially since I lost to Aza in pools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yUdVapxtI (damn it axe why u soo good vs marth. Ice Ice baby...but forreal we need to do something about this yellow rat in a party hat putting the hurt on the prince)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INNPhhBAml4 (Mango fox vs PP part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7as31aeSDE (Mango fox vs PP marth/falco part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksN45904YN8 (I.B. MARTH soo good vs falcon/GUCCI!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYGQfFf7M (Strawhat Dahean, my dude vs Javi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb5_kg4bcWY (Keep dat marth pimp hand strong Tim vs the overseas bird flying at mach speed)

 

[Tarv]

It's baffling to me how people complain about Marth. They'll blame their character, certain circumstances and anything they can to justify being bad with the character. Axe plays ****ing pikachu and instead of *****ing about it he got REALLY good with him and figured many crazy things about his character. Instead of making excuses and Johning about his character he used that time to improve upon himself and his ability to control and use his character.

So I don't know about the rest of you but I'm inspired now.

 

[strawhats]

Arc u are the man. (both referencing your prowess vs sheik...see my recently posted link of you match vs Aza, and also your inspirational post)

 

[Bones0]

It's baffling to me how people complain about Marth. They'll blame their character, certain circumstances and anything they can to justify being bad with the character. Axe plays ****ing pikachu and instead of *****ing about it he got REALLY good with him and figured many crazy things about his character. Instead of making excuses and Johning about his character he used that time to improve upon himself and his ability to control and use his character.

Ofcourse Axe doesn't complain. Marth-Pikachu is at least 30-70.

but forreal we need to do something about this yellow rat in a party hat

LOL

 

[Tarv]

Wait... Is the pikachu MU really considered that bad for Marth? I always figured that was a joke...

 

[BTmoney]

It's baffling to me how people complain about Marth. They'll blame their character, certain circumstances and anything they can to justify being bad with the character. Axe plays ****ing pikachu and instead of *****ing about it he got REALLY good with him and figured many crazy things about his character. Instead of making excuses and Johning about his character he used that time to improve upon himself and his ability to control and use his character.

So I don't know about the rest of you but I'm inspired now.

I'm mildy offended. lol.
That was so extremely simplified. If you were making a blanket statement, blanket statements are bad . This in itself is blanket statement so I suppose this comment is bad, but that comment was worse lol.
I don't think anyone who know's what their talking about loses a serious match and then they say *insert marth john* we all know marth is good. We all know he has a ridiculous grab game and edge guarding game.


If that was more focused and directed at the discussion in this thread than I'd say that's completely uncalled for since marth lacks kill set ups and if you aren't getting tippers or your opponent doesn't flop their DI marth has trouble taking stocks.
However, we all know that. No one was saying marth is bad. His pro's certainly outweigh his cons. We are discussing his cons and how to cope with them if not remove them.


This is the marth currently that we know. No one said this marth is bad, this marth just has problems.
This marth is like, a cross country runner who's also a smoker. We want marth to stop smoking.

 

[Bones0]

Wait... Is the pikachu MU really considered that bad for Marth? I always figured that was a joke...

Ken's opinion is never a joke...

 

[Tarv]

Fair enough, I just honestly don't see what would we be so hard about the match-up. I mean I've never played Axe so that probably has something to do with it.

@Tactician: On the contrary, I want my Marth to be Smokin' :D

Edit: Then again I never thought the puff MU was all that bad either, so you know... I'm weird like that.

 

[strawhats]

I hope to see PP's marth MM axe's pika soon. I'm Very intrigued

 

[Medz!]

I've played axe with marth too. Since I live 2 hours from phoenix I go to tourneys every now and then and I couldn't do anything to axe with marth. He's just broken in that matchup. My fox did a hundred times better

 

[Stylez]

and probably looks the coolest while doing a 0-to death combo.

100% truth. Even when he isn't comboing; just moving around, trying to avoid getting *****. He looks so cool

 

[BTmoney]

Ken's opinion is never a joke...

Except for when it is

and well then Tarv, looks like your marth will die prematurely to cancer and his teeth will yellow

100% truth. Even when he isn't comboing; just moving around, trying to avoid getting *****. He looks so cool

waveland too sexy

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't know IB's marth was that good. I played rock in florida over the summer and had similar matches with him, very close to 50/50. rock really impressed me with his knowledge of the character MU for ganon vs marth.

i'd like to work with ice on covering his holes and adjusting his play. i talked to him at apex for a bit and he has the right analytic mindset that the character needs.