Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deleted member]

Shield breaker isn't that good for edgeguarding because of the startup. You have to guess when you use it usually rather than react.

you're crazy. shield breaker is an amazing edge guard option. you cover the entire edge, below it, with little lag, no good DI options for your opponent if you don't kill them, etc etc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Umbreon I'm talking about a specific situation: Downthrowing your opponent off stage. If you turn around and use shield breaker ASAP it won't cover the double jump airdodge option. D-tilt is low enough lag to do this, on the other hand.

 

[BTmoney]

Excuse me for being unclear, I prefer SB to fsmash most of the time when edge guarding

 

[ChivalRuse]

Shield breaker is fine imo. You just have to know what the person on the recovering end is looking for and try to cover options. <-- True with any character when edgeguarding.

 

[linkoninja]

Another question guys, playing spacies has made me want to be super-aggressive 100 percent of the time. It tends to work out with spacies, but when I play Marth I get punished a lot cause I'm just trying to go H.A.M. Mentally how do you guys prepare when you switch characters in terms of play-style. I know Marth can be punished and I shouldn't just be throwing them out there but I do anyways.

 

[Stylez]

Marth can go hard too! You just need to play pseudo-aggressive; apply pressure without committing. Make your opponent respect your sword, wait for that opening, then ****. I think the best marths are those that are aggro enough to apply pressure, while being able to react once the opponent commits. It's why he's way cooler than other "slow" characters like peach or ganon.

 

[BTmoney]

Seriously, all I do to switch between characters if I'm not mentally ready is if I have time to do a hand warmer (or possibly during down time in a match) I'll my SHFFL attacks as fast as I can possibly get them out.

Once I get that speed down (I play a lot of fox now and his shffl speed is drastically different from marth's) I get in that character specific mindset.

 

[Bones0]

@ Umbreon I'm talking about a specific situation: Downthrowing your opponent off stage. If you turn around and use shield breaker ASAP it won't cover the double jump airdodge option. D-tilt is low enough lag to do this, on the other hand.

Nah, neutral B is amazing for edgeguarding. You can cover the airdodge by just charging it longer. lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

I rarely SB to edgeguard unless they have to fall into me. Once in a while I jump out with it because it's bigger than Fair with solid knockback.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Excuse me for being unclear, I prefer SB to fsmash most of the time when edge guarding

I love Strong Badding someone into an Fsmash.

 

[Bones0]

If you're edgeguarding a spacie and they are too far/low out to side-B through me/over me, I like to SH neutral-B. If you match your jump with the peak of their jump (not as precise as it sounds), you can hit their high side-B on reaction, and then if they dip back down from their DJ to go for the ledge, you can release it just before landing and it's hitbox goes super low (lower than any ground move anyway). Then if they up-B at any point you just keep charging and put your -face on for their impending doom. The ONLY way they won't get hit by it is if they shine stall after you start the neutral-B (which no one will do; I'm edgeguarded by this all the time and I still have trouble reacting to the neutral-B with a shine stall).

 

[beencake]

Shield breaker isn't that good for edgeguarding because of the startup. You have to guess when you use it usually rather than react.

you can react with neutral B still, its only 16 frames to get out, and it goes under the stage, pretty positive side B dosent. Neutral B does cover the air dodge option too i think, its good for baiting out air dodges.

 

[Strong Badam]

Dude shroomed beat KK **** off with your whiny like 5th best char stuff

please stop doing this bobby, it's for your own good.

I love Strong Badding someone into an Fsmash.

oh my!

 

[Medz!]

I love Strong Badding someone into an Fsmash.

Lol I'm so dumb. I literally thought SB meant strongbad. Minutes later I figured it was shieldbreaker. I'm embarrased to be a marth main

 

[Bones0]

It's okay, Matt 3 Dot Zeb. We all have those moments.

 

[beencake]

lol i thought "SB" was "side B". Strong forum novice right here.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i thought it meant side B at first, but then i was like "wait, that's a terrible idea" then figured it out after that

 

[Medz!]

It's okay, Matt 3 Dot Zeb. We all have those moments.

I knew the day would come when someone would use that reference on me.

 

[Diakonos]

I still think it's side B

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Hey Marth's what should I practice when playing this character? I'm new to Melee, and I mostly play Brawl. I don't think I will use Marth in tournament, but I would like to be decently proficient w/ him and know his basics. Tips anyone?

 

[strawhats]

sigh...marth footage of my better half vs shroomed at Apex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQlb34ygrEw&list=UU8n1cOrfw2-8HihgxK38yWw&index=5

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tried to force the kill, didn't get good enough edgeguards/punishes or didn't really try for them, and jumped too much.

That's game 1 anyway. Shroomed is good vs Marth. Cape is gay lol.

 

[strawhats]

Tried to force the kill, didn't get good enough edgeguards/punishes or didn't really try for them, and jumped too much.

That's game 1 anyway. Shroomed is good vs Marth. Cape is gay lol.

yep that bout sums its up. I should know since I seem fortunate to have Shroomed in my pool at almost every big tournament I attend. Not to mention that wide skill gap.

 

[beencake]

Hey Marth's what should I practice when playing this character? I'm new to Melee, and I mostly play Brawl. I don't think I will use Marth in tournament, but I would like to be decently proficient w/ him and know his basics. Tips anyone?

Learn short hop, aerial, fast fall, Lcancels. Practice NEVER being within grab range lol, and work on consistent WD/DD. Imo just work on that for now mate.

 

[beencake]

PP your melee aesthetics are strong, forever mirin mate <3

 

[strawhats]

Ice vs Cyrain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpTYXyoorWE&list=UU8n1cOrfw2-8HihgxK38yWw

Strawhat Dahean vs Dazwa (sheik) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjbBO1jnHLs&list=UU8n1cOrfw2-8HihgxK38yWw

 

[beencake]

Strawhats we should $ match

 

[Bing]

Yeah, Shroomed in pools is always fun. My only recorded match for melee is from Apex 2012 when I played him in pools... needless to say I got wrecked..

 

[MT_]

Can people point out bad things about my Marth in this match? This is Apex 2013 pools, me (blue) vs HBK (black).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpgVwvGwoU#t=47m

I am particularly interested in game 1 of this set.

 

[Deleted member]

you're both playing like you're feeling yourselves.

technically, you both look great. strategically, start over IMO

the amount of bad decision-making from both of you heavily outweighs the good in a MU based around not being bad. your second stock makes this most visible when you die at 30% for jumping around doing moves for really no reason. 80%+ of the decisions made by both players in this match are like that where there's really no basis for them, the're just not as obviously bad because it doesn't result in a very low kill. but they are bad and it's important to recognize why.

as soon as you knew he was willing to fthrow you at the edge every time you could have probably won just by shield camping without needing any real talent lol

or abusing how bad marth is on battlefield against real characters. yes that includes himself. yes marth can abuse himself badly on battlefield in the mirror without about 30 min of practicing.

 

[Bones0]

Umbreon, are you going to any locals any time soon?

 

[MT_]

you're both playing like you're feeling yourselves.

technically, you both look great. strategically, start over IMO

the amount of bad decision-making from both of you heavily outweighs the good in a MU based around not being bad. your second stock makes this most visible when you die at 30% for jumping around doing moves for really no reason. 80%+ of the decisions made by both players in this match are like that where there's really no basis for them, the're just not as obviously bad because it doesn't result in a very low kill. but they are bad and it's important to recognize why.

as soon as you knew he was willing to fthrow you at the edge every time you could have probably won just by shield camping without needing any real talent lol

or abusing how bad marth is on battlefield against real characters. yes that includes himself. yes marth can abuse himself badly on battlefield in the mirror without about 30 min of practicing.

Do you think you can be a little more specific on my bad decision making (I'm not trying to be defensive; genuinely want to know so I can work on it). The death at 30% was kind of silly; looking at it I probably meant to double jump to the top platform and gimmick around as a means to wear off his invincibility but he called me out on it and I also double jumped way too early.

I'll admit that I'm not exactly confident in my Marth ditto strategy being any good... Marth can't play like he can vs other characters with his "aggressive zoning" kind of thing because he doesn't hold a range advantage in the ditto. So I feel like I have to play kind of janky and rely on reads to establish any sort of winning position or first hit.

As for shield camping at the ledge; being fthrown off (even if you know it's coming and you DI so you don't get fsmashed or something silly) isn't exactly a good thing for Marth... I don't see why shield camping would be a good idea? You still are put in a position to recover and the opponent is still put in a position to edgeguard.

And can you elaborate on how Marth can abuse himself on Battlefield? I'm not sure how it differs from other stages too much; I actually like Battlefield a lot compared to DL and FoD.

 

[clowsui]

Umbreon, are you going to any locals any time soon?

i'll answer this one for him

no

48:02 is the characterizing moment for me in addition to that death

you dtilt him and then you dash away. why? you have complete control of the situation. then he jabs and you're still DD'ing. you get lucky/react to his bad roll w an fsmash.

oh man 48:09 might even be worse, you're up on the platform then you come right down w bair when he's not really likely to get hit by that at all

the edgeguard situation that you just completely dropped at 48:24: wat

48:45ish why do you rely on fair every time? he's showing shield to you. that means grab and he's done it the past 2-3 times without any fear because he knows all you wanna do is just hit his shield w fair and rely on a read

48:53 why fsmash at all? no need whatsoever

this is honestly just a really small sample of the bad decisions you made. you need to understand exactly why you did the move/how it interacts with the other marth. everything about this matchup is swing less poach more (AKA get a lot of grabs) but your strategy/inexperience led you to just try for a lot of hits or ignore grab (for some reason).

also getting fthrown at the ledge at lower percents sucks but at higher percents when he does it you get to escape for free whereas if he had dthrown you you would've been ****ed

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can people point out bad things about my Marth in this match? This is Apex 2013 pools, me (blue) vs HBK (black).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpgVwvGwoU#t=47m

I am particularly interested in game 1 of this set.

Try to edgeguard more efficiently. Waveland off bair looks cool but it's not really worth it (you risk getting hit without invincibility from the ledge). Also, why are throwing out dash attacks vs HBK when he's over 190%? Umbreon's on the money when he says you need better decision-making.

 

[MT_]

i'll answer this one for him

no

48:02 is the characterizing moment for me in addition to that death

you dtilt him and then you dash away. why? you have complete control of the situation. then he jabs and you're still DD'ing. you get lucky/react to his bad roll w an fsmash.

I'm not sure what you mean. I never forfeited control of the situation; it's not like I ran to the other side of the stage? I was actually fishing for a desperate jump or roll as he was in a bad position (which I maintained). He whiffed a spot dodge and jab; I didn't trust myself to react quick enough to those considering he could have double jabbed me and interrupted me with the second jab. He did end up rolling which is what I was looking for. What would you have suggested instead? Dtilt -> run up grab? Dtilt -> dtilt again?

oh man 48:09 might even be worse, you're up on the platform then you come right down w bair when he's not really likely to get hit by that at all

Yeah that was really bad. I got desperate to try to get stage control so I tried a really janky waveland off the platform into bair. He baited me pretty hard there (I thought I could hit him lol).

the edgeguard situation that you just completely dropped at 48:24: wat

Yeah that full jump was a messed up turn around wavedash to the ledge >_> gotta work on that consistency.

48:45ish why do you rely on fair every time? he's showing shield to you. that means grab and he's done it the past 2-3 times without any fear because he knows all you wanna do is just hit his shield w fair and rely on a read

Hmm I'm not sure. I like to use fair because it forces him to shield (which is bad for Marth and all characters) but you're right I should probably mix in straight up grabbing. I guess it's because I like to wavedash back -> short hop which limits my only options to fair and tomahawk shenanigans. Fair however is noncommittal at that range and allows for me to play more reactively than proactively trying to force/commit to something that could be easily punished.

48:53 why fsmash at all? no need whatsoever

After the nair I hit him with, I was still around center stage and he might have thought it safe to drop straight to the ledge (which people like to do in order to save their double jump). In this case he opted to double jump which is the proper response to me trying to hit him before he can grab the ledge; it was a hasty move but not necessarily without a reason and it did cover an area of the rock-paper-scissors game that goes on in playing. If I opted to fish for his double jump, he could have dropped to the ledge and I would lose some of my advantage (but in this case he won the RPS obviously).

this is honestly just a really small sample of the bad decisions you made. you need to understand exactly why you did the move/how it interacts with the other marth. everything about this matchup is swing less poach more (AKA get a lot of grabs) but your strategy/inexperience led you to just try for a lot of hits or ignore grab (for some reason.

Yeah you're right that I probably need to be looking for grabs more, but I find it disconcerting that so many people think that swinging is bad in this matchup. Swinging is necessary on so many levels and are just as important as grabs are IMO (yes, in the neutral game). The threat of swinging is what scares opponents into shield which is what opens up grab opportunities... but of course this is a really basic principle. You had a good example of where grab more was appropriate earlier though (with the fairs that I do).

also getting fthrown at the ledge at lower percents sucks but at higher percents when he does it you get to escape for free whereas if he had dthrown you you would've been ****ed

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I'm understanding how being thrown at higher percents is a free escape and why it's any better than being fthrown at lower percents (proper DI should keep you from getting combo'd off fthrow at the very least). And I'm definitely not understanding what you mean with dthrow.

 

[MT_]

Try to edgeguard more efficiently. Waveland off bair looks cool but it's not really worth it (you risk getting hit without invincibility from the ledge). Also, why are throwing out dash attacks vs HBK when he's over 190%? Umbreon's on the money when he says you need better decision-making.

YES I think this is one of the big things I need help on... edgeguarding in the Marth ditto. The waveland off bair is meant to swat Marths aiming to double jump sweetspot the ledge (since he can't stop it from the stage if the sweetspot is done properly except for maybe some incredibly well placed dair). Can anybody shed some light on how to improve my edgeguarding in this matchup?

And yeah those dash attacks were really silly; I think one of them was supposed to be a pivot fsmash though and I just ****ed it up really hard lol. Though I don't think dash attack is necessarily any worse when they are at higher percents; you send him into the air which is bad bad bad for Marth (still not that good since dash attack is dash attack though).

 

[ChivalRuse]

You could just substitute d-tilt for dash attack though and accomplish more in terms of setting up your kill.

But when edgeguarding really I'd recommend grabbing the ledge then adjusting to their incoming recovery as appropriate. The invincibility + the added priority from them moving into you is a pretty devastating combination.

 

[MT_]

You could just substitute d-tilt for dash attack though and accomplish more in terms of setting up your kill.

But when edgeguarding really I'd recommend grabbing the ledge then adjusting to their incoming recovery as appropriate. The invincibility + the added priority from them moving into you is a pretty devastating combination.

Noted. For some reason I decided to forsake ledge invincibility in edgeguards this entire set in favor if gimmicky surprise hits. Thanks for the input!

 

[clowsui]

I'm not sure what you mean. I never forfeited control of the situation; it's not like I ran to the other side of the stage? I was actually fishing for a desperate jump or roll as he was in a bad position (which I maintained). He whiffed a spot dodge and jab; I didn't trust myself to react quick enough to those considering he could have double jabbed me and interrupted me with the second jab. He did end up rolling which is what I was looking for. What would you have suggested instead? Dtilt -> run up grab? Dtilt -> dtilt again?

Sit at that range and react. You could literally just stand there (imo best option right there). You could Dtilt again. You could walk forward a little and back up w WD back. Even though I think it's a low % success rate play, if you wanna DD there you've gotta tighten your DD more or change the rhythm, you got lucky that he messed up even though you baited the roll. The point is that you had him in a position where he was disadvantaged but you actively forfeited control by dashing away after the dtilt AND doing a very long, relatively monotone DD. In another way: you had guaranteed damage/strong pressure and you decided to pretend it wasn't guaranteed/he had more control than he actually did.

Looking at it again you actually dtilted his shield. Why are you moving at all? You don't have to move, HE DOES, and the beauty of it is that you're at a nice range where you have enough time to respond to him despite how slow some of Marth's moves are.

After the nair I hit him with, I was still around center stage and he might have thought it safe to drop straight to the ledge (which people like to do in order to save their double jump). In this case he opted to double jump which is the proper response to me trying to hit him before he can grab the ledge; it was a hasty move but not necessarily without a reason and it did cover an area of the rock-paper-scissors game that goes on in playing. If I opted to fish for his double jump, he could have dropped to the ledge and I would lose some of my advantage (but in this case he won the RPS obviously).

So this is a really good example of why Umbreon advocates structuring your learning dichotomously rather than using a gradient; ie there's only a right decision, and everything else is wrong (rather than this decision is more right than the other). This decision DOES cover one of his possible options in that specific situation, this is true. And it's plausible that he would fast fall to the ledge. But you have to ask yourself, is it LIKELY that he should do so? Well, it's as you said: one of three available options. But consider that it's very risky for him to do so given the threat of coming in on Marth at that angle. You have a ton of different options that would make him **** his pants if he even tried it. We could chalk this up to inexperience, but that removes part of the teachable element of this situation (which is what I'll talk about in my next paragraph).

So OK. For whatever reason, you choose to throw out fsmash; now WHY is it right? You say that the fsmash is a high reward option that can be beat by double jump. Well, what if I tell you that you can just wavedash or hop back and you will be able to reactively cover all of his options and he cannot defeat your overwhelming advantage with any options? This is the proper way to evaluate situations. How do I place myself in as many advantageous situations as possible? Until you master this ability, only then should you focus on "exceptional" situations that require more creative thinking or have some sort of strange contingent element. You will vastly improve your consistency of play by this method.

Yeah you're right that I probably need to be looking for grabs more, but I find it disconcerting that so many people think that swinging is bad in this matchup. Swinging is necessary on so many levels and are just as important as grabs are IMO (yes, in the neutral game). The threat of swinging is what scares opponents into shield which is what opens up grab opportunities... but of course this is a really basic principle. You had a good example of where grab more was appropriate earlier though (with the fairs that I do).

It's as you said: the threat of swinging is what's important. Not the swinging itself. There's very few situations where you need to actualize the threat of swinging by doing an attack w the sword because of how "slow" Marth's moves are.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I'm understanding how being thrown at higher percents is a free escape and why it's any better than being fthrown at lower percents (proper DI should keep you from getting combo'd off fthrow at the very least). And I'm definitely not understanding what you mean with dthrow.

Fthrow at higher percents at the edge = tons of variables (DI/drift, does opponent have jump or not, also opponent has the option of resetting the situation by grabbing the ledge)
Dthrow at higher percents = less variables (DI, then it's an okizeme situation where he can only land normal + do getup options or do ukemi (tech) + do that set of getup options)

It's a % success rate game.

 

[beencake]

You have to play Marth methodically pretty much, never get impatient, to improve anyways. When you get GG mode, you can play less systematic probably if you want

FUARKKKK "The Robot" MATES