Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deleted member]

the only videos of mine worth watching are older zelda teams videos and some random project m videos from the beta testing. i wouldn't waste my time if i were you. it's been years since i was an active tournament threat.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Roger roger.
Who am I supposed to watch and take notes on as I eat today's lunch now?
I've already taken notes of Mew2king and Pewpewu, my 2 favorite Marths. lolol

P.S., I highly advocate taking notes of either yourself or someone else after watching them or after discovering something in the videos or during the friendlies. Then make a checklist of things you need to find an alternative to and/or start implementing. Each time you play, focus on getting 1 thing, maybe 2 max accomplished on your list, then once it's incorporated, move on to the next.

 

[BTmoney]

i have no problem giving advice and i'd like to learn more about sheik too since i'm bad at her but love the character. but i can't promise the same input of properly teaching someone else when my heart's not into it.

Good enough (for now)

 

[AustinRC]

Double post but

I called it. PP didn't win but he got a set. Close enough

*sigh*. Alright ill admit, I was incorrect. GG Clowsui.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah when ur motivated hit me up dude

I like battlefield as Marth but really get wrecked by the top platform. It's true and I didn't really think about it until now. Everything else is fine(maybe the side platforms could be a little lower/smaller?), but I suppose that is a pretty big deal.

Makes me consider working more of my non-uthrows on that stage until the opponent is far above the top platform and I can beat them to it though, among other things. Setting up tech chases over platform combos and such.

Good thoughts from the Marth boards. =)

 

[Bing]

Wow, the Marth boards are getting mad cute with Discussion!
I legitimately need a coach to, Niko_K and I are the "coaches" for my region and were not even that good... We just know more then the rest. Plus I don't go to Toronto much anymore because of financial and having no confidence when it comes to Toronto tournaments because I just get wrecked. So I don't get coaching from Unknown, anyone really. Just trying to develop on my own which sucks when you can see mistakes you're making but don't know how to fix it. I dunno.

I hope you get your drive back Umbreon, its nice having intelligent people around.

 

[clowsui]

Being good has nothing to do w coaching/teaching ability. If it did I would be the worst at giving advice and m2k would be renowned as a teacher as opposed to a source of information (though he has been getting better at teaching and not just dispensing facts). The ability to teach is a developed skill that has NOTHING to do with playing ability. As soon as you make that distinction it becomes a lot easier to find useful information.

I will say however that being good certainly doesn't hurt. It just doesn't conclusively prove you a good teacher.

 

[whitemountain123]

Whatsup marth players

I main falco, and I've consistently had a hard time against marth. I just posted in PPs falco thread too, but I figured it'd be a good idea to get some advice from the other side if you guys are willing.

What do you find makes it hard to play against a good falco? What does he do to control/win the neutral game (especially if the marth is decent at ps-ing)? What falco tactics frustrate you the most? I have the hardest time just getting the first hit on marth and not getting my approaches punished.

Thanks!

Edit: What spacing ranges are hardest for you to deal with against falco?

 

[Bing]

Being good has nothing to do w coaching/teaching ability. If it did I would be the worst at giving advice and m2k would be renowned as a teacher as opposed to a source of information (though he has been getting better at teaching and not just dispensing facts). The ability to teach is a developed skill that has NOTHING to do with playing ability. As soon as you make that distinction it becomes a lot easier to find useful information.

I will say however that being good certainly doesn't hurt. It just doesn't conclusively prove you a good teacher.

I do agree, I mean I've been coach my region for a few months now, and certain players for even longer, but unfortunately there are things that I don't know or could even be incorrect with. I also would really like to get better for my own sake. I feel like I can talk the Talk but I can't walk the walk. And that actually means something to me. and again, I want to get better and place at major tournaments one day, even if its just like a 13/17th kind of thing, I'd still be satisfied, though of course I want more.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Whatsup marth players

I main falco, and I've consistently had a hard time against marth. I just posted in PPs falco thread too, but I figured it'd be a good idea to get some advice from the other side if you guys are willing.

What do you find makes it hard to play against a good falco? What does he do to control/win the neutral game (especially if the marth is decent at ps-ing)? What falco tactics frustrate you the most? I have the hardest time just getting the first hit on marth and not getting my approaches punished.

Thanks!

Edit: What spacing ranges are hardest for you to deal with against falco?

Try to understand Marth's hitboxes, his ranges out of dashes, wavedashes, jumps, etc. And know his out of shield options. Avoid taking chances by the ledge because if Marth doesn't have many opportunities to gimp you he's going to have trouble turning the momentum of the match in his favor.

Edit: Also, don't let yourself get caught above Marth.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It sucks when Falco is doing a move at me and I'm not spaced far away from it or swinging myself(or trying to shield grab I guess). Also, when he's close on his terms or I'm above him. That sucks too.

 

[MT_]

Know when Marth wants to dash away/wavedash back and instead of doing an aerial where he currently is you can laser and then Marth is caught with 0 stage left and he might even have his back to you.

I find that the Falcos that I REALLY have a hard time dealing with are the ones that know when I want to forfeit some stage for a DD grab or something similar; Falco isn't fast enough to overshoot an aerial to cover DD like Fox/Falcon are but a smart laser will make him forfeit all the stage with zero gain.

The other side to this is that if Marth thinks you're going to laser, then instead of doing a DD or wavedash back he can just swing at you. But that's the rock-paper-scissors aspect to the neutral game and it's what makes it interesting IMO. (And Marth swinging at you is beaten by approaching with an aerial).

Of course this is a very general analysis and specific differences in spacing will call for slightly adjusted versions of the above tactics but my experience is that the truly good Falcos know how to make Marth lose his stage control just through his own attempt to do a DD grab or something like that.

 

[Bing]

One thing I've always liked doing on shield is late hit fair (Tippered) to d-tilt. I find it gets them to move in my advantage(Generally they jump or I get a grab out of it.)

 

[BTmoney]

Yo, I just go wrecked . Hanky Panky's peach is no joke (he lives walking distance).
My marth wasn't touching him. I don't ever want to CC anything ever again.
Any MU tips? Not CC'ing is obvious but I need more specific things.
I stole a game or two with sheik but I'm looking for marth help.
I added more dtilt to my game and had some good improvement in the neutral game.



How does one go about approaching peach with Marth?
How does one deal with turnips, is it being preemptive with more aggressive spacing?
I find approaching her on your terms to be very difficult.
What are some good options that give you follow ups on peach?
Any general good DI options against peach combos?



Any general sheik stuff is also appreciated.
I had a lot more success with sheik, I understand sheik vs peach fairly well.

 

[clowsui]

yo you're in columbus? i'm up there sometimes. let's play. i wanna do some work vs hanky

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah i go to OSU (come **** me metaphorically and literally if you really want to...but I guess that wouldn't be up to me.)
My marth's not ready to see to day light. Lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Yo, I just go wrecked . Hanky Panky's peach is no joke (he lives walking distance).
My marth wasn't touching him. I don't ever want to CC anything ever again.
Any MU tips? Not CC'ing is obvious but I need more specific things.

How does one go about approaching peach with Marth?
How does one deal with turnips, is it being preemptive with more aggressive spacing?
I find approaching her on your terms to be very difficult.
What are some good options that give you follow ups on peach?
Any general good DI options against peach combos?

your movement should be such that you never have to choose if you should crouch or not. ideally you're not adjusting to how you get hit, but avoiding damage with your movement entirely.

marth does not approach any character, he observes them until an opening makes itself evident. this is not necessarily camping, but a general avoidance of strategies that have some kind of commitment.

turnips is peach's balancing mechanism to keep you from completely movement-****** her to death. enjoy the finesse and balance that makes this game wonderful. and don't get hit by them. if she has one in hand, she's combo practice because she can't do anything threatening until she drops it.

don't try to follow-up, just abuse her lack of movement as best as you can.

don't get hit by combos.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Now that I think about it. All those questions you could easily come up with answers for by yourself and study it. The end result why you are asking those questions is because your execution is bad.

What's a good follow-up? Anything, you just swing your sword.
Why do somethings feel like they are bad follow-ups? Most likely getting punished for doing something due to poor execution (timing, spacing).

Self-reflection: Hmm... where is that point where you realize everything you did wrong and know what you should do instead, but can never execute it properly?

 

[BTmoney]

Double post.

 

[BTmoney]

A lack of tight defensive movement is quite possibly my biggest flaw.
(A huge part was playing on a CRT television that had severely less lag than the flat screens I play on which is a very foreign feeling)
But ignoring that, I would generally call my defensive tactics weak at best with Marth. This usually leads to me getting hit or grabbed.
I also need to get faster OoS (i.e. more wd's) for the times I get stuck in it (which was often, I know not to shield) because float-cancel-pressure will destroy Marth. I suppose rolling sooner rather than later is also a good idea since you won't get a chance once shield pressure begins and conceding to the bad position. One solution is to avoid shielding but that is harder said than done. Preemptive moment seems to be the answer again.
Flirting with the spacing that keeps you at a distance and keeps peach not wanting to pull/throw turnips is, well interesting.
I also reason Marth lacks a decent OoS option under conventional circumstances with upB being the closest (samus?) to escape pressure. Sounding right so far?

I normally can agree with not approaching with marth but I am not convinced of that when the opponent has projectiles. It seems like a good way to give up 90% of the stage or get a landing punished.

edit:
I suppose I will expand on the follow up question after I play Hanky again tomorrow, there was a lack of consecutive hits and playing the in and out game is very tasking since you are conceding killing potential until like 170%. I noticed spaced single hit DB gives an opening for an option usually fair/utilt/occasionally fmash

Now that I think about it. All those questions you could easily come up with answers for by yourself and study it. The end result why you are asking those questions is because your execution is bad.

Self-reflection: Hmm... where is that point where you realize everything you did wrong and know what you should do instead, but can never execute it properly?

I would think seeking specific help implies reflection. Rather than keeping my thoughts to myself why not expand on them and have input? I seriously have a hard time understanding what the point of this thread is then which is based around asking questions. We all have the ability to answer any question given the fact that we have access to the same game but I want input; if that isn't the case then what questions are worth asking?

edit2:
Game 5 pp vs armada apex 2013
v=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMgkr-s4jI
Been watching that pretty closely. He forced so many bad situations for armada. There may not be "follow ups" per say but he is getting conversions and converging well. I need more grabs vs peach.

 

[Mahie]

I normally can agree with not approaching with marth but I am not convinced of that when the opponent has projectiles. It seems like a good way to give up 90% of the stage or get a landing punished.

I'd say Marth is supposed to approach as much as possible, but only through pure movement, you only throw out attacks when they hit or when they're safe (like dtilt).

If you don't do that then they can also eventually corner you and without a dash away then you're screwed.

And yeah, you're right, you're not really supposed to shield. That's regardless of the matchup, but even more true when the character you're facing has good ways to follow up on your shield (Fox, Falco, Peach), or can intercept you out of it (Fox, Falcon, Sheik).

And yes, it is easier said than done, you just need to think about being as minimalist as possible when it comes to dodging/defense, in order to concede as little stage as you can.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Funny, how she needs turnips to deal with Marth, but she has next to no options when holding them

 

[Tee ay eye]

i notice i like barely dashdance anymore nowadays

i mostly just walk around and do slippery dash/wavedash shenanigans

so i feel like i lost a sizeable chunk of my fast mobility and sacrificed it for slower, more controlled mobility, which is nice in some ways and probably not-so-nice in others.

max/kevin, spoonfeed me your words and tell me why i suck <3

 

[Deleted member]

you play with axe and taj and they're stacked against marth.

idk show me some videos or something.

 

[Bones0]

I like the slow controlled movement when they're shielding or likely to spotdodge/roll because you still have all your nifty tilts that you lose when you begin DDing. I would just try to be more aware of when you retain your best options walking, and DD whenever you don't really need those options because avoiding approaches is more important.

 

[Bing]

If I'm not mistaken(Please correct me if I'm wrong)

Peach is really lacking in the approach category, and both characters(Marth and Peach) prefer to have the other approach. Therefore by using tilts and such you can poke at Peach until they get tired of slowly eating damage and come at you bro. Then you do your Marth thing. The reason I believe Marth ***** Peach's recovery(Like it was stated above by Tactaction, PP put Armada in a lot of poor positions during the recovery) so I view Edge guarding peach as if its the Peach approaching me, Peach has a very poor approach, Marth has great edge guarding ability, so yeah.

Am I on the right track? I hate fighting against Peach as Fox, so I normally just ditto them(I hate it but Im good at it), I lost to a Peach once as Marth and ever since then I've been afraid to do the MU.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Changes of pace have given me a lot of dividends in the past.

Dictate the flow of the match, but don't overplay your hand. Make them adjust to your timings, and avoid repetition.

Its a delicate balance, and one I'm still trying to work on, but I think it can be practiced. In fact, simply avoiding similar routines while working on tech skill will translate in matches. Pushing away from the same movement cycles to something more deep and freeflowing gives Marth an aura of unpredictability...this lends itself to a greater macro stategy and not just a series of well placed attacks and counterattacks (which is where I think a lot of Marths get their punishes nowadays).

If you want to win with minute encounters and attrition play Peach. Marth excels when he has a foundation and gameplan that he can use and adjust throughout the match relative to the opponent's tendancies.

 

[Bing]

Actually I just remembered I have a question for you guys. Last night I was playing against a Fox and I hit them with a bair on Yoshi's and they landed on a platform(low percent) and I was expecting them to tech(obviously) and I went in with an Aggro nair but they didnt tech and just laid there and the nair hit them laying down and reset them. Now this actually really isnt a question... but I didn't know nair could reset(like a jab or Fox Fair). Thoughts?

 

[Bones0]

Any move can reset as long as it's weak enough. I remember watching a clip where Axe reset someone with the back end of Pikachu's usmash (I think it was at KoC). You can fthrow spacies and reset them with a rising AC nair. If you use it, you have to tell people it's called the "Bones Reset".

 

[Bing]

Any move can reset as long as it's weak enough. I remember watching a clip where Axe reset someone with the back end of Pikachu's usmash (I think it was at KoC). You can fthrow spacies and reset them with a rising AC nair. If you use it, you have to tell people it's called the "Bones Reset".

I remember that clip actually, I was like "da faq thats awesome!"

But Im just curious as to what point of Marth's nair would be weak enough to reset?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

On the subject of using nair:
I was watching M2k vs SFAT and Taj vs Tope from Apex 2013, and they both seem to use nair quite a bit for zoning purposes. (Or at least I think that was their intention)

 

[Bones0]

I remember that clip actually, I was like "da faq thats awesome!"

But Im just curious as to what point of Marth's nair would be weak enough to reset?

The first hit is the weak one (I thought that was obvious).

 

[Bing]

The first hit is the weak one (I thought that was obvious).

Well yeah, I dunno. I knew the first hit was the weak one, I just didnt know it was weak enough to reset.

On the subject of using nair:
I was watching M2k vs SFAT and Taj vs Tope from Apex 2013, and they both seem to use nair quite a bit for zoning purposes. (Or at least I think that was their intention)

If you have a certain type of player it can be used to keep them in check

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo, I just go wrecked . Hanky Panky's peach is no joke (he lives walking distance).
My marth wasn't touching him. I don't ever want to CC anything ever again.
Any MU tips? Not CC'ing is obvious but I need more specific things.
I stole a game or two with sheik but I'm looking for marth help.
I added more dtilt to my game and had some good improvement in the neutral game.



How does one go about approaching peach with Marth?
How does one deal with turnips, is it being preemptive with more aggressive spacing?
I find approaching her on your terms to be very difficult.
What are some good options that give you follow ups on peach?
Any general good DI options against peach combos?



Any general sheik stuff is also appreciated.
I had a lot more success with sheik, I understand sheik vs peach fairly well.

You approach Peach if you think she's gonna stay grounded and not really try to counterattack you at all. Then you can do whatever you want. I like poking with Dtilt for all parts of this strategy.

Turnips eh I don't have a perfect answer to them yet. If you kinda rush Peach she can usually get away and snipe you but if you hang back she gets a free approach. Just know if you stay on top of her you can get grabs and shield stabs when Peach is shielding and shouldn't be far away when she pulls. If you got hit first then just try to stand your ground and make Peach throw from far away/the wrong direction so you can dodge.

Uthrow, Dtilt'ing then taking stage, hitting her into the air, Fthrowing and moving to where she lands, those are some good ways to have followups.

I dunno how to DI peach combos but up kinda saves me or at least lets me stall LOL



Sheik: CC a lot.

DD a lot.

Don't ever Nair.

grab the edge when she's offstage.

Dtiltdtiltdtilt.

i notice i like barely dashdance anymore nowadays

i mostly just walk around and do slippery dash/wavedash shenanigans

so i feel like i lost a sizeable chunk of my fast mobility and sacrificed it for slower, more controlled mobility, which is nice in some ways and probably not-so-nice in others.

max/kevin, spoonfeed me your words and tell me why i suck <3

think about why that stuff is nice and why it sucks. think about what purpose DD'ing serves and what purpose each dash would serve in the context of everything else you have considered.

better yet, scratch all of that and consider what Marth does as a character and how you should best do that with each of Marth's tools.

you play with axe and taj and they're stacked against marth.

idk show me some videos or something.

YEAH

 

[BTmoney]

Good stuff lol, I'm on my way to play again. Playing against people better than I am is fun.


Those peach mains know how to mash the F out of the c-stick I'll tell you. I'll CC a hit with sheik into dsmash and they'll cc it to their d-smash and we'll clank and they'll get it out first more often than not.
That's just reaction though and fixing that is easy.
I suppose if I am going to CC I should be grabbing(?)


And dtilt..hmm

 

[Deleted member]

kevin's answer to everything is dtilt lmao

it's kinda like how i tell him that falco's answer to everything is dair and that he should use it more

even though it's bad advice and would probably get him *****

doesn't stop me from saying it in person though to tease him over and over

LOL

yo kevin, when armada is spaced from you and is obvious going to WD back, you should dair there. right where he was right before that wavedash. that'll get you far lmao.

 

[BTmoney]

Lol I'm not beating Hanky Panky's Peach anytime soon. He makes peach gey.
I can take his marth/sheik but I can't hold a light to that peach (and falcon).


I think at this point I can do everything I want to do and I know what to do but I need to practice and make leaps in tech skill. The Marth tips were nice though. Focusing on movement really is essential and good. I don't think he can zone out peach at all which is what I was attempting to do before.

 

[ChivalRuse]

kevin's answer to everything is dtilt lmao

it's kinda like how i tell him that falco's answer to everything is dair and that he should use it more

even though it's bad advice and would probably get him *****

doesn't stop me from saying it in person though to tease him over and over

LOL

yo kevin, when armada is spaced from you and is obvious going to WD back, you should dair there. right where he was right before that wavedash. that'll get you far lmao.

I think PP just likes to plug d-tilt because he thinks it's severely underused by lesser Marth players.

 

[Bones0]

I think PP just likes to plug his butt because he thinks it's severely underused by lesser Marth players.

Wait... wut?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lol. That edit almost made so much sense that I had to wonder if I originally wrote it.