Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

I like Battlefield =(

The easy edgeguards and low platforms though!!!

(f*** that top plat I just wait that out/set up some punishments for anyone chilling up there LOL)

 

[MT_]

@Tactician

I'm aware of spacey pressure frame data and what you're saying about early/late aerials during pressure iterations is essentially correct. It just doesn't take into account that there are exactly 0 top spacey players that go about pressuring a shield with aerial->shine->aerial->shine->repeat. And even if there were, the holes in this kind of pressure can be beaten by grab by the same theory that up-B will beat it.

The thing about the holes however is that human reaction time isn't quite so fast to be able to react to which particular timing a spacey uses each time he decides to hit your shield. The only one I can actually react to is if Falco (or Fox) does a very early aerial on your shield after shine.. probably because of the visual cue it gives for me. Late aerials however are incredibly hard to react to for the same reasons that tomahawk grabs are hard to react to; nothing happens until it's to late in a sense.

You said "at worst this beats late aerial shield pressure mix ups." Grabbing right after shine does too lol.

In any case, I'm not trying to discourage you from exploring up-B OoS by any means. It just seems that so far up-B OoS only beats shield grab as an option in three situations which most of us already knew. 1) The opponent is in kill percents (which I mentioned before), 2) It beats shine-grab, and 3) Human error in grabbing by a margin of 2 frames (in all scenarios where you can up-B OoS successfully you can also shield grab successfully except for shine-grab).

This of course is not considering the differences in risk involved between whiffing either up-B or grab.

As for spacey pressure in general, make sure you keep in mind that there are many more mix ups to spacey pressure other than early/late aerial. I'd hate to see a Falco come in on your shield with a dair->shine->early nair, but with the nair faded away and then you react to the early nair with up-B OoS and then get punished really hard for it :/.

 

[BTmoney]

@Tactician
It just doesn't take into account that there are exactly 0 top spacey players that go about pressuring a shield with aerial->shine->aerial->shine->repeat.

Spoiler

/edit

(in all scenarios where you can up-B OoS successfully you can also shield grab successfully except for shine-grab).

/edit ^and this since literally you have 3 more frames for reasons explained previously

The only thing I disagree with in your last post is this sentence. It only takes shine->aerial one time and a correct call to get beat.
(keep in mind if you fade all the time well 1 you aren't pressuring [basically like a tomahawk] and 2 if you fade then it adds a whole new dynamic of what you should do OoS anyway and that's a different talk, this is pressure specific)

It would be insane for anyone to call it every time lol but yeah. I've seen plenty of shine->one nair on shield. Only takes 1 to get punished. I'm also gonna preface that with I only watch good players when I want to learn fox/falco things.
Whiffing an upB especially on platform-less stages does equal sad face however.




I'm pretty sure we are just saying we agree with each other but understand the applications at this point lol.

 

[Bones0]

In most situations that you can up-B OoS you'll also be able to grab. At mid to mid-high percents, a grab will (should) give you so much more than up-B and thus up-B is a bad option a la Umbreon theory (it's not necessarily bad but grab is better). If it's at kill percents then yeah up-B if you know it's going to hit. It's not always obvious when it'll hit though and you risk getting hit off stage without a jump.

Also I heard that you can up-B OoS before Fox can shine if he does a drill->shine on your shield. I'm not 100% this is true but it could be worth exploring?

You can shield grab drills on your shield, so up-Bing would just be slightly easier.

Reverse up-B is stronger than forward up-B but doesn't always tipper.

evidence.zip?

But seriously, I've always heard weird things about Marth's reverse up-B, but doesn't the sweetspot hitbox come out before he even turns around?

 

[BTmoney]

^bone0s


and I seriously don't get the reverse upB thing either. I just know it usually works

 

[Divinokage]

Reverse Up-b on the ground doesnt seem to send the opponent anywhere though for some reason. It's like the initial hitbox needed for the tipper doesnt connect.

 

[BTmoney]

Reverse Up-b on the ground doesnt seem to send the opponent anywhere though for some reason. It's like the initial hitbox needed for the tipper doesnt connect.

http://youtu.be/A9gValB9Ksc?t=47s

Pretty sure we are just doing it wrong. I know what you mean though. I want some reverse upB data!

 

[Deleted member]

I like Battlefield =(

The easy edgeguards and low platforms though!!!

(f*** that top plat I just wait that out/set up some punishments for anyone chilling up there LOL)

what i actually heard was "I'm Dr. ****ing Tier 1 Player Kevin Nanney Peepee, I don't have to worry about opponents stalling me out or forcing me to approach from a ****ty position when a clock exists because i just rely on being better than my opponent from neutral before the game state ever gets to that point."

with a lot of hyperbole of course. because i'm me and i'm kinda scumbaggy sometimes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah okay well

......

but if I was fighting me it would work!

 

[Deleted member]

yeah okay well

......

but if I was fighting me it would work!

i'd say you'd **** yourself, but the world can't handle that much beard-on-beard action.

...

i think we have problems lmao

 

[Mahone]

i don't think the fox is ccing in the vid

pretty sure u can cc tech or just straight up cc it at low percents and then punish...

@bones: ya, i always felt that a possibility for what is happening is that when u do it facing forwards u hit with the sweetspot then hit with another hit and the momentum stacks and makes it weaker than when u reverse since u only hit with the sweetspot... do you think thats a possibility or does that not make any sense?

i agree upb is underused though, i know that it is ridiculously good vs puff if there's a top platform since it takes her like 3 jumps to get to the top plat

 

[Dr Peepee]

i'd say you'd **** yourself, but the world can't handle that much beard-on-beard action.

...

I think we have problems lmao

rofllll

<33333

 

[Bones0]

I never hear the up-B hit twice or see their % change twice, so I doubt they are getting hit by a later part of the up-B (I don't even think that's possible, but I have thought about it). I'm gonna go at least test the theory about the KB being greater. That is easily confirmed or busted. I should also be able to use a floor pattern to test spacings. I'll get back to you guys in a little (unless I get distracted lol).

 

[BTmoney]

I never hear the up-B hit twice or see their % change twice, so I doubt they are getting hit by a later part of the up-B (I don't even think that's possible, but I have thought about it). I'm gonna go at least test the theory about the KB being greater. That is easily confirmed or busted. I should also be able to use a floor pattern to test spacings. I'll get back to you guys in a little (unless I get distracted lol).

Coolio, because I'm sick of getting beat by hanky panky's pocket falco lol. It's just rude. Like an Axe falco. Why do you even have a pocket falco that good?
Like PP's marth.

edit:
even though upB OoS does not replace being good at the game trollololol

edit2:
yes it does

 

[Divinokage]

rofllll

<33333

You are no warrior, you aren't following your word with that beard yo!

 

[Bones0]

They definitely have the same damage and KB. Let me see if I can figure out a good way to make sure they are the same distance.

If you are pushed all the way up against an opponent, you will get the sourspot hit (10% instead of 13%). Whether you reverse or not is irrelevant.

The sweetspot's range is the same regardless of whether or not you reverse the up-B. If you're going to do either, you might as well do the one where you stay facing forward so if you are too far away, you can at least hit them with the weak hit once you've left the ground. Other than that, the only reason you would want to reverse it is because you're recovering or you want to land on a plat (or avoid landing on a plat).

Aerial up-Bs have less horizontal range!

 

[BTmoney]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15329035#post15329035

^
Funny how having access to a solid database (marth frame data & shield pressure frame data) allows me to answer my own questions and form new and more complex conclusions instead of asking stupid questions. I may possibly even put on a front as if I know what I am talking about when it comes to certain things. But don't be fooled, look how stupid I was a few days ago.

Yay education.

 

[Mahie]

I usually hit with the front upB hitbox when I'm further away from the opponent (mostly in order to punish non-techs in a techchase), and the reverse one when we're stuck together.

 

[BSeeD]

I usually hit with the front upB hitbox when I'm further away from the opponent (mostly in order to punish non-techs in a techchase), and the reverse one when we're stuck together.

Is there any reason for that ?
Or just personal preference ?

 

[BTmoney]

According to what bones0 just labbed, there is no difference

 

[BSeeD]

According to what bones0 just labbed, there is no difference

That's what I thought, but maybe Mahie has another way to see it, I don't know...

 

[Dr Peepee]

You are no warrior, you aren't following your word with that beard yo!

I have a reason for that. I do not like that I am not doing what I said I would do.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15329035#post15329035

^
Funny how having access to a solid database (marth frame data & shield pressure frame data) allows me to answer my own questions and form new and more complex conclusions instead of asking stupid questions. I may possibly even put on a front as if I know what I am talking about when it comes to certain things. But don't be fooled, look how stupid I was a few days ago.

Yay education.

man how did they get the same knockback

I'm testing this pointlessly

 

[Bing]

Could it possibly have something to do with the sweet spot being larger/easier to hit with the reverse? I don't know, just spit balling here.

 

[Bones0]

Could it possibly have something to do with the sweet spot being larger/easier to hit with the reverse? I don't know, just spit balling here.

When I pressed all the way up against the opponent it sourspotted with both. Idk why people are so insistent on believing reverse up-B has any benefit in the first place. I feel like most of the people who think it has some benefit have probably reversed their up-Bs for as long as they can remember. I know that's the case for me. I read or was told a long time ago that reversing it makes it easier to sweetspot so I started doing it, but I was also told Falco's walk was faster than his run so **** trusting the general populous with details about this game.

 

[Bing]

I dunno, that was just a stab in the dark, it does seem like reverse does have more knockback. Maybe its just coincidence that people on average get the sweetspot more often with the reverse then the straight up.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i don't think reverse up B has any effect regarding the sweetspot of the attack. i think people just think it does because reverse up B is more traditionally used off-stage.

 

[Bones0]

I dunno, that was just a stab in the dark, it does seem like reverse does have more knockback. Maybe its just coincidence that people on average get the sweetspot more often with the reverse then the straight up.

It doesn't have more KB. I tested it. I up-B'd a Marth at 30% (unstaled for both trials), and he landed in the exact same spot.

i don't think reverse up B has any effect regarding the sweetspot of the attack. i think people just think it does because reverse up B is more traditionally used off-stage.

It actually has less range off stage since you're airborne though, so that explanation doesn't make much sense.

 

[Tee ay eye]

It actually has less range off stage since you're airborne though, so that explanation doesn't make much sense.

what i meant was

up B as an edgeguard/combo finisher is more common than up B OOS/on-stage

if you're offstage (or near the ledge), you have to reverse your up B if you want to survive (unless you're a true believer). people see reverse up B used more as a result, and this causes them to think that reverse up B has some sort of unknown sweetspotting properties.

 

[MT_]

I think Tai means that reverse up-B is traditionally used as a combo finisher off stage (if you don't reverse you die) so people have just used reverse up-B all the time and now OoS also.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[Tee ay eye]

get destroyed LOL

 

[MT_]

get destroyed LOL

I am always open to a YS rematch MM

 

[Tee ay eye]

i concur with this statement

all yoshis

 

[Deleted member]

i'll MM both of you.

i seen youtube videos, i ain't scurred.

then again based on my videos you shouldn't be scared either LOL

i basically have to beat tai though because he beat ken.

and inui logic + pride = stupidity.

and i'm stupid.

let's do this.

 

[MT_]

In randall we trust.

 

[BTmoney]

#UmbreonNation?

 

[MT_]

I am down for a MM Umbreon if I ever go to another national.

 

[Mahie]

That's what I thought, but maybe Mahie has another way to see it, I don't know...

I just feel it's easier to hit from afar when my timing is already tight and I don't have time to react AND get really close to him. It's always worked for me but it could be purely placebo.

The only other time I'll do front upB over reverse is when a spacie does their dash attack right onto my shield, crossing it up. Normal upB sends them into your back and it's tricky to react to/DI in time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MPLq2OPEFbQ#t=393s

 

[ShroudedOne]

but I was also told Falco's walk was faster than his run so **** trusting the general populous with details about this game.

Uh...I'm pretty sure it is...or at least accelerates faster. I'll test it later tonight if I remember, I guess.

 

[Bones0]

Uh...I'm pretty sure it is...or at least accelerates faster. I'll test it later tonight if I remember, I guess.

unrelated but falco's walk speed is 1.4 and his run speed is 1.5

for comparison, fox is 1.6/2.2, falcon is 0.85/2.3, and marth is 1.6/1.8

also link is 1.2/1.3

Like I said. Never trusting "common knowledge" from Smashers ever again.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Then I guess it was the acceleration, and people just remembered wrong. *shrug*

I'm assuming those are max speeds.