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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
the only person tai masturbates to is tai
So you are the kind of sick ******* that calls his own name out during sex huh tai? Also if you jump towards the middle platform on all stages except DL I think it was you can wait for a second and either double jump up air orrr double jump backwards and if you do it right you will just land at the right spot where it cancels part of your double jump animation by landing.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
so i played a bunch of recorded matches against hairynipples (super solid up-and-coming falcon player from socal) when he was in az this week
if you want you can watch those matches for some SICK and flashy inefficiency looolllll
if you want you can watch those matches for some SICK and flashy inefficiency looolllll
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Weirdest transition between sentences ever?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
if you mess up the ledge WD a lot and end up doing the unviable, super ****ty high-jump onto the stage, it may be more than just an execution issue. WATCH THIS VIDEO SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddiyOoqAzio
also please show it to anyone else you know who you think can learn from it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddiyOoqAzio
also please show it to anyone else you know who you think can learn from it
is this different from edgecanceling?So you are the kind of sick ******* that calls his own name out during sex huh tai? Also if you jump towards the middle platform on all stages except DL I think it was you can wait for a second and either double jump up air orrr double jump backwards and if you do it right you will just land at the right spot where it cancels part of your double jump animation by landing.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
I think he means this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMxgGtMLEfw#t=0m25s
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Yeah, its particularly good on Yoshis.
If you do the timing right, you can do really quick utilts/fsmashes on the top platform you wouldn't otherwise get
I hate this thread because it makes me realize everyone knows my tricks. Damn 11 year old game grrr
If you do the timing right, you can do really quick utilts/fsmashes on the top platform you wouldn't otherwise get
I hate this thread because it makes me realize everyone knows my tricks. Damn 11 year old game grrr
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I never realized how GOOD side B out of dash is. Oh my goodness it's so good.
And as always, down tilt. :3
And as always, down tilt. :3
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah d-tilt is awesome seriously
Beat!
Smash Master
<3 D tilt
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
gonna teach some new people this game soon. Do I teach them marth, ganon, or falco. fox's sh will take too long for them to learn so they might get frustrated. Falco can FH and still be decent while learning and has a dashdance that is decent enough to learn fundamentals. ganon has a garbage dashdance but I honestly think ganon will have better performance in terms of winning for a new player (single hit game, plus bad players can't edgeguard well and don't hog). marth teaches almost all the fundamentals, but bad players don't DI and therefore marth always dies every time he goes off stage.
I honestly think sheik has the best win rate when starting out but there are too many sheiks already and dittos are boring.
Or should I just let them choose who they want (which would probably end up being pikachu)? It's not that pikachu is ridiculously bad; he's just ridiculously bad till all the fundamentals are down.
I honestly think sheik has the best win rate when starting out but there are too many sheiks already and dittos are boring.
Or should I just let them choose who they want (which would probably end up being pikachu)? It's not that pikachu is ridiculously bad; he's just ridiculously bad till all the fundamentals are down.
Beat!
Smash Master
@KP
Tell them what characters are good and easy/"fun" to get started with (Falco comes to mind) but other than that, let them choose for themselves. You should encourage them to mess around with several characters if they can't decide. Actually, encourage them to do that either way.
Tarv, I'm gonna make that post on edgeguarding Samus eventually. Been a bit lazy lol.
Tell them what characters are good and easy/"fun" to get started with (Falco comes to mind) but other than that, let them choose for themselves. You should encourage them to mess around with several characters if they can't decide. Actually, encourage them to do that either way.
Tarv, I'm gonna make that post on edgeguarding Samus eventually. Been a bit lazy lol.
Bones0
Smash Legend
If I ever taught someone new, I'd do it like this:
1. Let them pick whoever they want as their main.
2. Heavily suggest they choose a top 10 character as a secondary.
3. Start with fundamentals if they are completely new to Smash (smashes vs. tilts, regular vs. specials, recovering with double jump -> up-B, roll, spotdodge, shield grab, teching, etc).
4. Techniques from the Advanced: How to Play videos (SHFFL, DD, WD, DI, etc).
5. How to grind tech skill so they can get through the ****tiest parts of movement ineptitude.
6. General perspectives of game concepts, such as spacing (movement), spacing (moves), stage control, recovery/edgeguarding options, punishment, etc.
7. Player vs. player perspective of the game (reading, picking up on habits, and developing an awareness of your own style so you can alter it quickly and efficiently). Always encourage new players to try new things instead of relying on safe, sub-optimal tactics that work more universally than if they go balls deep and try to pick the right option. Obviously there is a balance to this. You don't want them hard reading random stuff 24/7, but you also don't want them shield grabbing and CCing all the time because they know it will work at least some of the time.
8. How to pull knowledge from YouTube matches with only their own mind to assist them. If a player can't watch a match and learn something new, they're screwed when they try to learn new stuff mid-game vs. a completely alien player who plays a character they've played against <50 times in their life.
Most people will probably disagree with my insistance on picking up 2 characters when you're first starting out. I just don't like the idea at all of someone learning to play the game through the scope of only one character. I grew up playing 20-some characters, and I think it's helped me a LOT by giving me a very reliable foundation on how the game works as a whole as opposed to just knowing how Falco works and trying to force my own tunnel vision'd mental image of the game into gameplay.
3 and 4 are where most new players seem to get lost and/or give up because there's no magic pill. It takes hard work to get through that phase, and I would even argue that you never fully surpass it. Even the tippy-top players will make sub-par decisions based on the risk of technical error, and I think if new players understood that tech consistency is not something that simply clicks like a light bulb, they'd be more open to working through it. It takes lots of time and effort and the cognitive dissonance of accepting that you'll never be perfect while simultaneously striving for perfection seems to just make people frustrated or hopeless.
Do make sure they start out using efficient input methods. Things like rolling/spotdodging with C-stick, jumping with Y (and/or clawing), and L-cancelling with light shield are all really simple changes that can make a lot of things much easier or just all-around better. Obviously some are more important than others (I don't claw myself), but at least expose them to their options and explain how each variation can benefit them in the LONG RUN.
I think the separation of 6 and 7 is something that's really important and gets overlooked a lot. I only somewhat recently started seeing the game more as an abuse of the game's and characters' properties as opposed to two players mindgaming each other (shoutouts to Umbreon). I think that's why it took me longer than it should have to focus on stuff like stage control. I had sort of just ignored my position on the stage because I was so engrained in just reading my opponent's mind all the time. I have an additional theory that the metagame has just favored more game-abuse over time because we simply understand options better than we did years ago, and basic execution has also contributed to this. Kage made a post in the tier list thread I believe about the game becoming much more about check mating your opponent, which is basically what I'm referring to.
I can't really think of anything else I would take special care to point out to a trainee except maybe a section about your own mental preparation and well-being for both training and tournaments, but that's really applicable to almost anything, not just Melee, and it can vary a lot on a case-by-case basis. Some people have motivation issues, some people have confidence issues, some have focus issues, etc. Really just too many to throw at one person who may only have one or two mental blocks starting out. You could also add another section about learning stuff from the forums. Once you get to a certain level, I don't think intuitive understandings of the game are really enough. Sometimes you have to know the indepth workings of Melee in order to know how to deal with the situations it applies to. Things that come to mind are SDI, ledge teching, shield mechanics, stun mechanics, etc.
Why do I always type 10x more than I plan to. No one's even gonna read all of this... >_>
1. Let them pick whoever they want as their main.
2. Heavily suggest they choose a top 10 character as a secondary.
3. Start with fundamentals if they are completely new to Smash (smashes vs. tilts, regular vs. specials, recovering with double jump -> up-B, roll, spotdodge, shield grab, teching, etc).
4. Techniques from the Advanced: How to Play videos (SHFFL, DD, WD, DI, etc).
5. How to grind tech skill so they can get through the ****tiest parts of movement ineptitude.
6. General perspectives of game concepts, such as spacing (movement), spacing (moves), stage control, recovery/edgeguarding options, punishment, etc.
7. Player vs. player perspective of the game (reading, picking up on habits, and developing an awareness of your own style so you can alter it quickly and efficiently). Always encourage new players to try new things instead of relying on safe, sub-optimal tactics that work more universally than if they go balls deep and try to pick the right option. Obviously there is a balance to this. You don't want them hard reading random stuff 24/7, but you also don't want them shield grabbing and CCing all the time because they know it will work at least some of the time.
8. How to pull knowledge from YouTube matches with only their own mind to assist them. If a player can't watch a match and learn something new, they're screwed when they try to learn new stuff mid-game vs. a completely alien player who plays a character they've played against <50 times in their life.
Most people will probably disagree with my insistance on picking up 2 characters when you're first starting out. I just don't like the idea at all of someone learning to play the game through the scope of only one character. I grew up playing 20-some characters, and I think it's helped me a LOT by giving me a very reliable foundation on how the game works as a whole as opposed to just knowing how Falco works and trying to force my own tunnel vision'd mental image of the game into gameplay.
3 and 4 are where most new players seem to get lost and/or give up because there's no magic pill. It takes hard work to get through that phase, and I would even argue that you never fully surpass it. Even the tippy-top players will make sub-par decisions based on the risk of technical error, and I think if new players understood that tech consistency is not something that simply clicks like a light bulb, they'd be more open to working through it. It takes lots of time and effort and the cognitive dissonance of accepting that you'll never be perfect while simultaneously striving for perfection seems to just make people frustrated or hopeless.
Do make sure they start out using efficient input methods. Things like rolling/spotdodging with C-stick, jumping with Y (and/or clawing), and L-cancelling with light shield are all really simple changes that can make a lot of things much easier or just all-around better. Obviously some are more important than others (I don't claw myself), but at least expose them to their options and explain how each variation can benefit them in the LONG RUN.
I think the separation of 6 and 7 is something that's really important and gets overlooked a lot. I only somewhat recently started seeing the game more as an abuse of the game's and characters' properties as opposed to two players mindgaming each other (shoutouts to Umbreon). I think that's why it took me longer than it should have to focus on stuff like stage control. I had sort of just ignored my position on the stage because I was so engrained in just reading my opponent's mind all the time. I have an additional theory that the metagame has just favored more game-abuse over time because we simply understand options better than we did years ago, and basic execution has also contributed to this. Kage made a post in the tier list thread I believe about the game becoming much more about check mating your opponent, which is basically what I'm referring to.
I can't really think of anything else I would take special care to point out to a trainee except maybe a section about your own mental preparation and well-being for both training and tournaments, but that's really applicable to almost anything, not just Melee, and it can vary a lot on a case-by-case basis. Some people have motivation issues, some people have confidence issues, some have focus issues, etc. Really just too many to throw at one person who may only have one or two mental blocks starting out. You could also add another section about learning stuff from the forums. Once you get to a certain level, I don't think intuitive understandings of the game are really enough. Sometimes you have to know the indepth workings of Melee in order to know how to deal with the situations it applies to. Things that come to mind are SDI, ledge teching, shield mechanics, stun mechanics, etc.
Why do I always type 10x more than I plan to. No one's even gonna read all of this... >_>
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I read it. Top tier post, imo.
Number 5 is also a really difficult part of getting better at this game, imo. It's hard to find the time/motivation to suicide offstage 300 times before you finally start getting your ledgedashes down, and, at least for me, sessions often tend to end with sore hands and little improvement for a LONG time. That can be demoralizing. "What's the point of learning all of this tech skill?" one might say.
And it's just hard to not get bored, but there's music/other things for that.
Number 5 is also a really difficult part of getting better at this game, imo. It's hard to find the time/motivation to suicide offstage 300 times before you finally start getting your ledgedashes down, and, at least for me, sessions often tend to end with sore hands and little improvement for a LONG time. That can be demoralizing. "What's the point of learning all of this tech skill?" one might say.
And it's just hard to not get bored, but there's music/other things for that.
It's not demoralizing for me. What's demoralizing is that I can't successfully rely on my tech skill in actual matches. I can do all of the beginner stuff in and out of real matches fine, but as i creep into intermediate things, my success ratio of training:real matches gets really lopsided towards the left.
That really bothers me because if I can't do thing right in actual matches, how am I supposed to even learn the situations and scenario that a technical option would be a good choice?
That really bothers me because if I can't do thing right in actual matches, how am I supposed to even learn the situations and scenario that a technical option would be a good choice?
D
Deleted member
Guest
articanus, me, and druggedfox looking sorry in a target.
Bones0
Smash Legend
What are you ****ing up? I never really had problems with any Marth tech... Most of his technical difficulty just comes from spacing for tips constantly, but there's really no way to practice that other than playing.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Top tier post, Bones.
Seriously, that should be stickied somewhere.
Smooth Criminal
Seriously, that should be stickied somewhere.
Smooth Criminal
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
i read it all. It was a good post, though a lot of the stuff there in my opinion is too high level for a beginner. Until a person can control the character I don't focus on spacing or stage control, though I yell at them whenever they don't take free space the opponent has left open,
First day 3 hrs of training (so much better then spamming down b with pikachu).
First she wanted to practice sh. I was like heck no, we're learning fundamentals and useful techniques that won't take her 2 weeks to practice first. So I just taught her marth cause when I suggested playing ganon she said ganon was ugly. One of her male friends is decent (I 3stock him with marth, but my 2ndaries can lose matches occasionally), and the other two are only slightly better then her. But in 3 hrs of training I think she is almost on par with the other two scrubs. I would argue that with my training she appears to be better than neutral but doesn't know what to do to stop sheik when she starts comboing marth (next on my list to teach her), or how to recover without suiciding about 20-30% of the time. we practiced it some but she needs a lot more recovery practice.
Mainly I focused first on dtilt keep people out. full dashes can be canceled into crouch. Then we just practiced dashdancing for 1.5 hrs. Not just dashdancing without purpose of course, dashdance dodge and punish (dash attack, grab, rising full hop fair). Then I spent 1 hrs practicing aerialling opponents moving around while full hopping and 10min edgeguarding characters.
I didn't expect her to do so well in 3 hrs but of course no one on these boards would fail to 4 stock her. Still in teams at least she can keep up with the other two scrubs now.
Oh I remember I spent 30min of the dashdance practice explaining over half of the concepts needed to understand basic techchasing. Of course she's so bad it I would get out in seconds but man did she run circles around the other scrubs. she was just grabbing them left and right and throwing them again (though she never took the combos when they DId fthrow in)..
but yeah it was a fun night.
it reminded me of the old days when I was practicing with mahone back when i 4stocked him 90% of our games. Of course I mainly just mentioned spacing tips to him at the time cause I didn't know anything about jiggs ground game or jiggs in general.
i've trained 4 people to lower 50% bracket of local tournament level...and mahone, I won't claim to have really trained him but I did get him started on the stuff he needed to get better. But he had the natural drive to just go get better.
I actually like teaching scrubs as long as they are teachable. if they feel unteachable then i don't even care if they are only getting 2 stocked by me, I can't teach them. Some people have personality issues that prevent learning. They think everything they die for was a tech error without knowing what lead to the tech skill mistake and make johns for everything that goes wrong...or they have mistaken views about stage control or just lack the focus to actually properly play reactively.
mahone always thought I was weird to enjoy like helping scrubs..but on the flip side I hate all the stupid **** posted on the boards, so even though I realize that I should just tune out posts by people whose opinion doesn't matter to me, I still get annoyed. And then rather than posting lots of informative marth posts to help people I am too lazy and just post nothing most of the time. Plus there is so much stuff that I think will help fox/falco players if they understand marth options better, so I like to keep them in the dark.
on the bright side I finally realized the tier lists don't matter and no one has any real clue so anything in the tier list thread doesn't bother me any more..
though people's reasoning sometimes....but that just happens when people are playing at different levels or discussing matchups that are often their weakest matchup.
It would be like me posting on marth vs peach when I have almost no experience in the matchup, but everyone has an opinion. I actually do have some opinions on how badly peach can wreck marth when he's boxed out at the ledge, but other than that, while playing peach as a secondary I've started realizing marth has a lot of options i've barely played with in that matchup.
First day 3 hrs of training (so much better then spamming down b with pikachu).
First she wanted to practice sh. I was like heck no, we're learning fundamentals and useful techniques that won't take her 2 weeks to practice first. So I just taught her marth cause when I suggested playing ganon she said ganon was ugly. One of her male friends is decent (I 3stock him with marth, but my 2ndaries can lose matches occasionally), and the other two are only slightly better then her. But in 3 hrs of training I think she is almost on par with the other two scrubs. I would argue that with my training she appears to be better than neutral but doesn't know what to do to stop sheik when she starts comboing marth (next on my list to teach her), or how to recover without suiciding about 20-30% of the time. we practiced it some but she needs a lot more recovery practice.
Mainly I focused first on dtilt keep people out. full dashes can be canceled into crouch. Then we just practiced dashdancing for 1.5 hrs. Not just dashdancing without purpose of course, dashdance dodge and punish (dash attack, grab, rising full hop fair). Then I spent 1 hrs practicing aerialling opponents moving around while full hopping and 10min edgeguarding characters.
I didn't expect her to do so well in 3 hrs but of course no one on these boards would fail to 4 stock her. Still in teams at least she can keep up with the other two scrubs now.
Oh I remember I spent 30min of the dashdance practice explaining over half of the concepts needed to understand basic techchasing. Of course she's so bad it I would get out in seconds but man did she run circles around the other scrubs. she was just grabbing them left and right and throwing them again (though she never took the combos when they DId fthrow in)..
but yeah it was a fun night.
it reminded me of the old days when I was practicing with mahone back when i 4stocked him 90% of our games. Of course I mainly just mentioned spacing tips to him at the time cause I didn't know anything about jiggs ground game or jiggs in general.
i've trained 4 people to lower 50% bracket of local tournament level...and mahone, I won't claim to have really trained him but I did get him started on the stuff he needed to get better. But he had the natural drive to just go get better.
I actually like teaching scrubs as long as they are teachable. if they feel unteachable then i don't even care if they are only getting 2 stocked by me, I can't teach them. Some people have personality issues that prevent learning. They think everything they die for was a tech error without knowing what lead to the tech skill mistake and make johns for everything that goes wrong...or they have mistaken views about stage control or just lack the focus to actually properly play reactively.
mahone always thought I was weird to enjoy like helping scrubs..but on the flip side I hate all the stupid **** posted on the boards, so even though I realize that I should just tune out posts by people whose opinion doesn't matter to me, I still get annoyed. And then rather than posting lots of informative marth posts to help people I am too lazy and just post nothing most of the time. Plus there is so much stuff that I think will help fox/falco players if they understand marth options better, so I like to keep them in the dark.
on the bright side I finally realized the tier lists don't matter and no one has any real clue so anything in the tier list thread doesn't bother me any more..
though people's reasoning sometimes....but that just happens when people are playing at different levels or discussing matchups that are often their weakest matchup.
It would be like me posting on marth vs peach when I have almost no experience in the matchup, but everyone has an opinion. I actually do have some opinions on how badly peach can wreck marth when he's boxed out at the ledge, but other than that, while playing peach as a secondary I've started realizing marth has a lot of options i've barely played with in that matchup.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Peach is pretty good at boxing most people out at the ledge.
At the same time, he does it really badly to her.
I never feel like I know nearly enough to give any sort of advice or training to people regarding this game, so props to those people with the patience/knowledge to do so. I mean, I'm patient enough, it's just I don't really talk to people about that kind of stuff. Talking to most people about Melee in general kinda annoys me these days, anyways.
Yeah, tier lists are pretty pointless, huh?
At the same time, he does it really badly to her.
I never feel like I know nearly enough to give any sort of advice or training to people regarding this game, so props to those people with the patience/knowledge to do so. I mean, I'm patient enough, it's just I don't really talk to people about that kind of stuff. Talking to most people about Melee in general kinda annoys me these days, anyways.
Yeah, tier lists are pretty pointless, huh?
clowsui
Smash Legend
Who cares if the margin of error becomes slimmer? Just post your info. If the techniques are useful/worth talking about, then talk about them. Everyone complains about the precision of Marth so much nowadays anyways that it makes absolutely no difference whether or not the Fox/Falco MU becomes harder.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
nah i like having free matches in tourney. I got jealous because i've seen 2-3 sets now of mahone basically getting free sets against rather high level players because they don't know even the simplest basics of fighting jiggs. I occasionally get the same against fox/falco.
I have a hard enough of a time learning to fight sheik and peach when there are no sheik/peach players around, so I feel like the fox/falco players should have to work on their own to learn the matchup or ask other falco players
Soooo many free matches for mahone in top 5 btw..you'd think players would have some basic idea on how to fight jiggs by now. But low level fox/falcos are so free it's ridiculous. probably not surprising considering that most of their time discussing their char on the boards involves what to do after you pin the opponent in shield or at the edge .
Also I don't really know what you mean by margin of error. If there are 9 options in a particular situation by marth and fox/falco players know 6 of them, but 1 or 2 of them are not covered at all, they will lose in that situation 100% of the time once I note that they cannot handle an option. They then have to fix that during the match. Sorry but no way in hell am i giving them the time to think about stuff like that in a match...one free round in a best of 3. they always talk about PP adapting, but that "adaptation" comes from already knowing the options and responding with a logical new option. Well that and PP is smart and willing to burn his invuln on the invuln platform thinking about what he should do differently. If more people did that then they would probably only lose 1 stock in a match to a particular strategy
I have a hard enough of a time learning to fight sheik and peach when there are no sheik/peach players around, so I feel like the fox/falco players should have to work on their own to learn the matchup or ask other falco players
Soooo many free matches for mahone in top 5 btw..you'd think players would have some basic idea on how to fight jiggs by now. But low level fox/falcos are so free it's ridiculous. probably not surprising considering that most of their time discussing their char on the boards involves what to do after you pin the opponent in shield or at the edge .
Also I don't really know what you mean by margin of error. If there are 9 options in a particular situation by marth and fox/falco players know 6 of them, but 1 or 2 of them are not covered at all, they will lose in that situation 100% of the time once I note that they cannot handle an option. They then have to fix that during the match. Sorry but no way in hell am i giving them the time to think about stuff like that in a match...one free round in a best of 3. they always talk about PP adapting, but that "adaptation" comes from already knowing the options and responding with a logical new option. Well that and PP is smart and willing to burn his invuln on the invuln platform thinking about what he should do differently. If more people did that then they would probably only lose 1 stock in a match to a particular strategy
Adaptation comes from one's understanding of the game and the awareness of what is currently happening to you based on that understanding. If I think of the game as primarily defensive then if I'm losing I need to figure out a way to up my defense/baiting strategies to secure a lead and momentum. This is a very simple example but I'm hoping it will partially explain my point.
Also, I found that instant DJ creates a sort of no impact landing on the side platforms of YS so I thought that was neat *shares*
Also also, DANG IT MOW LMFAOOOOOOO
Also, I found that instant DJ creates a sort of no impact landing on the side platforms of YS so I thought that was neat *shares*
Also also, DANG IT MOW LMFAOOOOOOO
OverLord
Smash Ace
Your learning curve must be pretty low then.
If I know something that can help people understand better what's going on and improve their game, then it should be my priority to tell them 'cause it'll make the competition level higher and improve metagame in a scene faster.
I like this game because of its depth and I don't really enjoy matches where I wreck some scrubs 'cause they fall for surpassed stuff.
And also, even if I tell them how to handle a given situation the best, it's not gonna change the matches' outcome that fast. There's a huge line between know what to do and do it properly.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
I dunno. I have never seen a decent level player come in and explain to their opponent why they lost a big set even when there are dozens of videos I've seen in which the opponent lost for just one or two things. The closest I've seen I think is when nintendodude came in and tried to help that one marth understand why he lost his set, but honestly he included so little detail on mistakes and problems that either nintendodude actually does everything subconsciously and doesn't understand what caused him to win or nintendodude just didn't feel like going through and picking apart what led to his opponent's loss.
I feel like it's a little disingenuous in here. After every big set the players go into their own character's boards and ask for help, but I almost never see the person who ***** them come in and give them a thorough analysis of their game. Nor do I think it's obligatory to go out or your way to help your opponents. They should analyze and figure it out, or they should ask specific questions.
Also, PP is the exception to the rule. Most players don't go out of their way to help everyone. They just help if they are in the mood.
Anyway, it's easy to help the opponent you are playing with as if he advances the "metagame," you are forced to learn new options and improve. If you just post stuff on the boards and people develop new stuff all that happens is you go out faster in tourney, get to play maybe 2-3 rounds and a few friendlies and then get less tourney experience against the top players that you would have been able to play otherwise
if my post feels unrelated to what we're talking about, it's probably cause I am assuming the reader understands that "understanding how a strategy works" and "understanding how to beat a strategy" are inextricably related. If you explain why you beat someone, you also explain how to not get beaten. If you explain how a trap near the ledge works you also explain how to avoid it.
I don't think i've even ever seen a person go into their own character boards and lay out a match they won explaining why they won. For their own personal improvement it is far better to critique and think about matches that they lost or issues they are having.
also, typing is a pain. people say that I ramble more than any other smasher and just overwhelm people, but on the internet it's a pain to write through lists of possibilities and how to deal. Another reason I like teaching in person and hate doing it on the internet
I feel like it's a little disingenuous in here. After every big set the players go into their own character's boards and ask for help, but I almost never see the person who ***** them come in and give them a thorough analysis of their game. Nor do I think it's obligatory to go out or your way to help your opponents. They should analyze and figure it out, or they should ask specific questions.
Also, PP is the exception to the rule. Most players don't go out of their way to help everyone. They just help if they are in the mood.
Anyway, it's easy to help the opponent you are playing with as if he advances the "metagame," you are forced to learn new options and improve. If you just post stuff on the boards and people develop new stuff all that happens is you go out faster in tourney, get to play maybe 2-3 rounds and a few friendlies and then get less tourney experience against the top players that you would have been able to play otherwise
if my post feels unrelated to what we're talking about, it's probably cause I am assuming the reader understands that "understanding how a strategy works" and "understanding how to beat a strategy" are inextricably related. If you explain why you beat someone, you also explain how to not get beaten. If you explain how a trap near the ledge works you also explain how to avoid it.
I don't think i've even ever seen a person go into their own character boards and lay out a match they won explaining why they won. For their own personal improvement it is far better to critique and think about matches that they lost or issues they are having.
also, typing is a pain. people say that I ramble more than any other smasher and just overwhelm people, but on the internet it's a pain to write through lists of possibilities and how to deal. Another reason I like teaching in person and hate doing it on the internet
OverLord
Smash Ace
Barely losing to someone as good as you and losing badly against someone that wrecks you are two different things.
I think you should try to help players that are not as good as you, so everyone is going to improve faster, but another thing is helping someone as good as you to beat you. That's stupid. I didn't mean that.
Example: I don't think Armada should tell PP how he should've played against him @ SR to beat him. At higher level of play figuring your opponent out is part of the challenge. What I meant is, helping players at lower/average level of play to understand better some tactics/strategies/match-ups/whatever, will have a positive outcome on the scene itself, improving overall skill level and advancing metagame faster.
Sounds good to me.
The better are my opponents, the better I'll be.
I think you should try to help players that are not as good as you, so everyone is going to improve faster, but another thing is helping someone as good as you to beat you. That's stupid. I didn't mean that.
Example: I don't think Armada should tell PP how he should've played against him @ SR to beat him. At higher level of play figuring your opponent out is part of the challenge. What I meant is, helping players at lower/average level of play to understand better some tactics/strategies/match-ups/whatever, will have a positive outcome on the scene itself, improving overall skill level and advancing metagame faster.
Sounds good to me.
The better are my opponents, the better I'll be.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
ah ok, yeah i agree with that. I try to help answer the simple things. But honestly it's the complex stuff that requires a huge understanding jump in order for your skill to go up.
One of the last two times my skill shot up was when I read a post PP made in which he just explained all sorts of dashdancing concepts that I couldn't understand (so I don't remember how well-worded the post was). I was so confused I just turned on my TV and put marth on the stage and put the opponent there, and just stared at the screen. After about 30sec, I dashed in a direction. then i tried walking. Suddenly I had 400 questions in my head and I went and started testing things. I realized that one of the most important aspects of the game is factoring in human reaction time and realizing when your opponent is doing things that cannot be reactive (you then know that he is doing them regardless in certain situations and can bait them).
Another time my skill jumped up was when KK posted something about the game basically being about narrowing their options until they have no stage control and then wrecking them. I then spent several hours figuring out ways to take space such that if the opponent chooses to engage they are at a d/a and will end up boxed out at the ledge. I then went through and started ranking how difficult marth's various options were to space around. Then suddenly fox had to be very good at dashdancing or play platform-based in order to have a favorable approach.
edit: i don't actually think platform based play improves the odds personally. But some foxes seem to think so.
That said, one thing that sucks about this game is, like in every game, luck does play a factor. But you hope that they don't guess right 90% of the time when they should only be able to get it 50% of the time.
Personally this is one of the hardest decisions in tourney for me. When deciding whether to switch characters, you have to judge whether you lost from mistakes you can fix, from lack of knowledge, or just bad luck on the reads. I can't even imagine how hard this would be if you were a falcon player. Do you really remember what percentage of your techchases were ending in death? Luckily, most falcons don't have a secondary so they just stay regardless and don't have to deal with that hard decision.
Lately though I've realized that it would never be beneficial for me to switch characters unless the opponent is sheik or peach, so I just stay.
One of the last two times my skill shot up was when I read a post PP made in which he just explained all sorts of dashdancing concepts that I couldn't understand (so I don't remember how well-worded the post was). I was so confused I just turned on my TV and put marth on the stage and put the opponent there, and just stared at the screen. After about 30sec, I dashed in a direction. then i tried walking. Suddenly I had 400 questions in my head and I went and started testing things. I realized that one of the most important aspects of the game is factoring in human reaction time and realizing when your opponent is doing things that cannot be reactive (you then know that he is doing them regardless in certain situations and can bait them).
Another time my skill jumped up was when KK posted something about the game basically being about narrowing their options until they have no stage control and then wrecking them. I then spent several hours figuring out ways to take space such that if the opponent chooses to engage they are at a d/a and will end up boxed out at the ledge. I then went through and started ranking how difficult marth's various options were to space around. Then suddenly fox had to be very good at dashdancing or play platform-based in order to have a favorable approach.
edit: i don't actually think platform based play improves the odds personally. But some foxes seem to think so.
That said, one thing that sucks about this game is, like in every game, luck does play a factor. But you hope that they don't guess right 90% of the time when they should only be able to get it 50% of the time.
Personally this is one of the hardest decisions in tourney for me. When deciding whether to switch characters, you have to judge whether you lost from mistakes you can fix, from lack of knowledge, or just bad luck on the reads. I can't even imagine how hard this would be if you were a falcon player. Do you really remember what percentage of your techchases were ending in death? Luckily, most falcons don't have a secondary so they just stay regardless and don't have to deal with that hard decision.
Lately though I've realized that it would never be beneficial for me to switch characters unless the opponent is sheik or peach, so I just stay.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Can you elaborate on the part about there being luck involved? It sounded like you were talking about basic Yomi stuff, but I don't think you can ever truly attribute someone's decision as being completely random, which means if you miss a read or something, it's because there were factors you didn't anticipate. If they tech roll over and over and you keep missing the punish until you finally adapt and that's right when they start teching in place instead, I don't think that means you got unlucky. I would say that is a result of slow adaption, and a poor understanding of how long your opponent will tend to wait before mixing something up. Knowing how many times you can get away with a certain trick is a very valuable skill which some people clearly have while others do not, so I don't think of it at all as luck. Yes, you have to play the probabilities on many decisions, but the way we play those probabilities in our head is never going to be identical to the way the situation plays out in the opponent's head. My point is just to say that even if no one can predict with 100% accuracy, that doesn't mean it's random. The only exception I could possibly think of is if someone is just mashing left and right before a tech or something, but even with a pure 50-50 situation, one of the decisions will give you a better punishment or KO opportunity so you have to know to pick that one and try to cover the second.
just because most people don't talk about why they won, doesn't mean it's a bad idea. perhaps it is better for certain people to think positively to improve so they would rather analyze matches they won or exchanges in which they came out on top.
a small, nitpicky point I wanted to add in here in the midst of this discussion as I was glossing over some posts =)
a small, nitpicky point I wanted to add in here in the midst of this discussion as I was glossing over some posts =)
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
sorry our thinking is too different bones. you sound too much like one of those people who thinks he will be the RPS king for me to try arguing though. To me it's luck..to you it's failure to adapt at exactly the moment when the opponent psychologically felt like switching their tech choice.
it's a question of whether we believe people can randomize their teching to a reasonable degree, which i feel is more than possible
it's a question of whether we believe people can randomize their teching to a reasonable degree, which i feel is more than possible
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
Pseudo random is more likely, meaning in the attempt to make it appear random, patterns emerge. For example, "I tech'd in in this same situation last time, let me tech in place." There are several scenario's that fall into that category. The better question you should ask yourself is, when you place your opponent in a tech situation, "Which tech would make it most difficult for me to kill/continue punishment?" Whatever the answer is, cover that option first, but don't commit so hard as to not be able to punish a different tech choice. (This is why tech chasing with grabs is so popular and so valuable)