Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

pp do you have some vids vs falcon? I really have no idea how you are using dtilt so I can't really judge whether I should be using it in those places. are you using dtilt aggressively or to just block approaches? If you use it aggressively are you waiting for opponents to dash away far enough that you can do dashcancel into dtilt or are you just wd/walking forward and poking to take space.

So many possibilities for where you are using dtilt, and you can't really judge it independently of what the opponent is doing either.

Videos would be nice, I swear you're the only marth that raves about dtilt. most of us use it but I feel like we're just thinking..yeah dtilt..if you use it people will be honest about making grounded approaches. I don't think most marths use dtilt very aggressively except for when a large amount of space is given (one of m2k's standard approaches on fox when there is a lot of space between the two players).

side note, this pikachu thing sound interesting. I'll test it sometime this week. do we need to dash grab instead of JC grabbing to grab him? and what relevance does the nair have. is it some pull down animation in reaction to getting hit?

Nah I got no Falcon vids.

I just use Dtilt aggressively or as a means to feel out Falcon's DD'ing. I usually dash cancel but WD sometimes if I think Falcon is reacting to my dashes iirc.

M2K was all about Dtilt when he played more.

 

[xianglongfa]

I think at this point everyone in this thread wants to watch friendlies of your marth vs top players in all the high-top tier matchups PP. Plz do us a favor and get these things done and recorded for the rest of us!

(Oh yeah and do marth v axe pika too plz!)

 

[Deleted member]

dtilt is softer against fast characters and more aerial characters, so of course it's bad vs falcon. stick to throws to force a tech roll to set up a timing advantage. when you finally get a good combo, carry him to the edge and kill him with it. that character has such unfortunate recovery options. if you don't know where to start, try fair > grab > downthrow and see what you can get from there. or ban FD and movement camp under platforms until you can upthrow him onto one and abuse that. approach the character with strategy vs strategy rather than by move composition, because marth's slow swings aren't very good against a character that fast until you already have some advantage set up. aka grab first.

feel free to edge guard him to death with dtilt though, that **** is hilarious.

 

[Archangel]

Nah I got no Falcon vids.

I just use Dtilt aggressively or as a means to feel out Falcon's DD'ing. I usually dash cancel but WD sometimes if I think Falcon is reacting to my dashes iirc.

M2K was all about Dtilt when he played more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZgGxVa5DQA

no falcon vids?

 

[knightpraetor]

probably means none with the sort of play he's talking about. those matches had two dtilts of the type he was mentioning one of which got pp zero to deathed and the other of which seemed decent but the falcon was running mad scared. if they run away that far then yeah by all means dash cancel into dtilt...free space.

anyway maybe all the falcons just run away from pp and then die to dtilt. I could understand why..PP is pretty scary when you first play him, though that feeling leaves after a while

 

[Cactuar]

Dtilt is pretty amazing vs Falcon. That matchup was always a mix of fair spam, dd grab spam, and dtilt spam for me.

Just like every other matchup.

 

[Bones0]

Is jabbing/single side-Bing a fraudulent tactic that will never work vs. good people?

 

[kd-]

Jab to get grabbed is my Marth's equivalent to my Fox's drill to get grabbed combo. I love it when jab works but I find it doesn't often.

Side-B to uptilt I thought was a gimmicky/workable thing on floaties, but not fastfallers

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZgGxVa5DQA

no falcon vids?

I didn't do it in this video, but I did some other cool stuff I forgot about lol. Neat.

Is jabbing/single side-Bing a fraudulent tactic that will never work vs. good people?

no

 

[knightpraetor]

jab is good for shield pressure and when you don't have room to dash dack...side b is decent if you dash back slightly to adjust space first...i wouldn't use either of them from neutral if i have stage control though. jab ***** people jumping from shield though...so if they get trapped in shield i use it quite a bit if their jump actually gives them good escape options..if they are fox/falco i usually just let them jump though and then wreck them from there..not really sure if jab is worth throwing on fox/falcos shield or not...I would guess it would be better against fox than falco though since falco's ridiculous FH will let him get out of range before you can follow if you're in jab lag (just my guess..if someone has tested it by all means let me know)

 

[Bones0]

Thanks for elaborating, PP.

KP, you should expand more on some of your points. You have to really back up statements with explanations and stuff instead of just throwing it out there. It's kind of annoying, honestly.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think forward B is a pretty good move against falcon because it hits kinda high and it can be used right out of a DD

 

[knightpraetor]

i'm just saying dashdance, dtilt and aerialing in general have better followups if you just want to wall some sort of approach. I dunno, jab might be good for that too but it won't gain you as much as the proper use of the others. Partially because the others have higher frame advantage on hit/push them farther towards the ledge.

and wth, i posted one place that jab is good, another place that side b is good (dash back to side b), and then said that I don't think either are worth doing from neutral when you have enough stage to just dash.

I then posted one question (whether you can still follow fox/falco well after you jabbed on shield and then they move afterwards)

how is that annoying?

seriously what do you want? you want me to explain in detail why dashing back slightly and Side Bing might be good? It can be done in response to people following you too closely or it can be used to catch someone who wasn't overshooting his aerials when you didn't have enough space to fully dash out of the way and grab him.

I actually can't do a good comparison of jab vs side b on fox though cause I don't have enough experience at that. I just recommended the two places I think it's decent and said that I think it's not worthwhile when you already have stage control. I said exactly as much as I have experience with. I can't very well give you some 6 paragraph comparison when I don't have the experience with the two moves.

 

[MT_]

i think forward B is a pretty good move against falcon because it hits kinda high and it can be used right out of a DD

I agree with this 100%. It really highlights how slow all of falcons moves are because if he gets hit by it he can't really do anything to retaliate. Side-b comes out pretty damn fast and because of its high hitting nature works well as an interrupt and method to swat falcon out of the air. In addition a lot of the times when you hit falcon with it (especially if you hit him when he was airborne or at high percent) you can get a free grab. And because I think you have frame advantage after hitting him with side-b, he is forced to choose a defensive option after getting hit in favor of attacking you because you can hit him first. So after conditioning him to get defensive after side-b you can just sit and react to whatever silly buffer rolls, spot dodges, or jumps he will do to try and get away.

 

[Bones0]

seriously what do you want?

I want you to realize I was sarcastically jesting at PP's one-word answer which you demonstrated how to answer properly.

 

[knightpraetor]

DANNNGGG ITTT

that's like the 3rd TIME i've been mindgamed by you..but this time it's public too

ps: i realized why it is that even though I think jab is good at punishing jump options I just follow fox/falco.

I think the issue is that falcon's dair and aerials have a bit more range plus if you hit the jab on fox/falco they have fast enough moves that a followup isn't very guaranteed. But against falcon he doesn't have fast moves so I'm willing to risk it cause if i hit the jab i almost always get something from it.

jab to fsmash on jiggs is godlike btw.

 

[Dr Peepee]

vague question is vague

 

[Tee ay eye]

dr peepee is dr

 

[Bones0]

Tai's father is Taj.

 

[clowsui]

Bones' hero is Bones

 

[Tee ay eye]

bones hero is bones zero

by the way, i'm still upset that nobody pointed out my rhyming paragraph on marths nair vs pikachu

 

[Dr Peepee]

DANNNGGG ITTT

that's like the 3rd TIME i've been mindgamed by you..but this time it's public too

ps: i realized why it is that even though I think jab is good at punishing jump options I just follow fox/falco.

I think the issue is that falcon's dair and aerials have a bit more range plus if you hit the jab on fox/falco they have fast enough moves that a followup isn't very guaranteed. But against falcon he doesn't have fast moves so I'm willing to risk it cause if i hit the jab i almost always get something from it.

jab to fsmash on jiggs is godlike btw.

Jabbing spacies is funny because it really destroys their momentum. Sometimes they attack again and then double jab/a different counterattack is great.

Then there's floaties who won't try to attack again after a jab and you get Fsmash like KP said. That's the goooood stuff.

 

[Bones0]

bones hero is bones zero

by the way, i'm still upset that nobody pointed out my rhyming paragraph on marths nair vs pikachu

Sorry, mang. I saw a paragraph about Pikachu and immediately skipped over it.

 

[Deleted member]

Is jabbing/single side-Bing a fraudulent tactic that will never work vs. good people?

absolutely not

edit: i see that kevin and tai already covered it.

and no, i'm not going to elaborate.

 

[MasterShake]

Why haven't I seen a vid or post of Niko in a while.

 

[Tee ay eye]

id guess league

its k, dr peepee can take care of you kids

and ill help

 

[MasterShake]

I thought of a situation the other day, say you uthrow a char that has to tech onto a mid-level platform to trap them.

My idea is to sit beneath the tech in place and sh, ready to uair them if they tech in place.

If they tech roll to either side, you react and dj waveland on the plat to regrab or whatever.

Does this work or is it useless theorycraft?

 

[Bones0]

Them having to tech off of an uthrow like that sounds really rare.

 

[MasterShake]

The positioning is what I was getting at rather than whether it was a uthrow or not.

 

[Bones0]

I thought this was the Falco forums. luuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllz

I'm pretty sure I've seen M2K do that before. I actually saw KirbyKaze do it (or something very similar) earlier today with Sheik. It seems like pretty sound option coverage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Pretty sure I have done that some before, but it depends on whether I want the grab more than the Uair/Utilt.

editing later

 

[KirbyKaze]

No my secretssssss

 

[knightpraetor]

I've done it but marth has no problems comboing to death off of techrolls on platforms..it's usually the tech in place into CC at high percents that takes working around.

I'm just saying there is little need to waveland grab when you can just combo them around on the tech rolls.

However, if it were possible to upthrow and waveland the platform and grab before the fox/falco techs in place...marth would be very very broken. But then if he could move that fast he could probably combo them before they fell to the platform.

Also, I think in that situation they will tech in place and have time to shield before you react to the tech in place if you were waiting to waveland the platform if they rolled unless you have godlike reflexes.. marth has decent perfect techchase off of dashthrough tech spot grab with the rear hitbox of dash grab, but honestly that's too risky and not relevant to what you are talking about here.

If anyone thinks they can actually do this reactively and 100% cover tech in place before the shield gets up let me know though...

random aside:

so i played project melee. Peach is still godlike in that game. Only thing is there are other godlike characters so I can't decide whether to play peach or ike. Ike is basically marth combined with roy's dtilt in melee plus with triple therecovery options and a jab that can shield pressure.

Marth on the other hand seems to suck pretty bad in P:M; mostly because other players are better at exploiting his recovery..also the aerial mobility is a little different which reduces the effective range of his moves. Combos are as good as always, except maybe easier, but i had trouble killing with him a lot more than peach or with ike. Is reverse up b any good there? i didn't play with up b hits any.

also is lucas good? From what i could tell he seems to have a godlike moveset except that his bair has start up making it more difficult to deal with opponents behind you and his only decent kill moves are smashes, yet they weren't that hard to hit. i could see him being top tier in that game too

lucario combos like a madman but in the end his aerial game sucks due to lack of range. That said his ground game is amazing due to the ability to cancel jabs into tilts and tilts into smashes on hit..needless to say a 3 hit combo setting up into a further aerial combo means that his combos are beast mode.

 

[MasterShake]

Thanks dudeskies, I just wanted to know if it worked.

One more option to have always helps.

edit: Actually if someone has a vid clip of said situation I'd like to see it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't even think marth gets an advantage off of tech rolls either in that platform shenanigan.

 

[Bones0]

You can definitely react to tech in place with a uair, and you can definitely waveland grab before their tech rolls finish.

 

[Cactuar]

No my secretssssss

Hahaha. This was just perfect for some reason.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach will probably be the best character in P:M. And no one will use her cause Peach.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The only issue that may sometimes occur is that ambiguous landing period where you're just waiting to react and they getup/roll right before you land so you may miss an input and FH instead of DJ or something weird.

Being proactive is good, being reactive like this is good. Just don't only do one or at least mix it up if you do imo.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah peach seemed beast mode, but so did ike. Lucas seemed like a better pikachu from melee honestly. It's easier to judge peach and ike's capabilities cause they are more similar to top melee characters, but I have a really hard time thinking of how good a pikachu that actually combos off his nair approach would be. Even foxes nair combos in melee aren't that automatic.