Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[ShroudedOne]

I understand the idea, Cactuar, but swatting Peach until 200% or something makes one quite impatient. But yeah, if you don't get hit while doing it, who cares.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Random question:

How do you avoid getting faired out of double fair combos in Marth dittos? Am I fairing too slowly (doubt it), or does it have something to do with not tipping? Does tipping affect stun? I'm guessing it does and it's dumb that I don't know that... I know it affects shield stun, but I've always just based hitstun on intuition.

IIRC M2K told me that 20% is the magic number for 2 tipped fairs comboing together in one jump

Never bothered to check it indepth but it sounds & seems legit

I'd imagine if you stale the tipped fair below like 10% then it's probably more like 23% or so because it sounds like that's a pretty tight link so the slight drop in damage (and therefore stun) might matter but then again it might not depending on how you're doing the combo

I think he also told me for non-tip fairs but I forget 'cuz it was a long time ago at like P3 or something

Tipped fairs stun a noticeable amount more than non-tipped. The tipped fair has more BKB than the non-tip (and I think KBG but I'm not 100% on that). The reason tipped fairs have more shield stun is because shield stun is based on damage. Hitstun and shieldstun run on different mechanics. That said, you probably could have figured out tipped fairs have more stun just by fooling around in training mode for 2 mins

 

[Bones0]

Wow, I completely forgot to consider what % it was. Sometimes Melee's mechanics seem designed by ****ing genius scientists who knew exactly how to balance how everything interacted with each other without making anything broken or useless.

 

[KirbyKaze]

20% is funny because (assuming no staling) M2K's old 2007 Marth ditto combo on FD was something like

f-throw > u-throw > u-tilt > fair > fair > freestyle ****

And the point of the beginning is basically put the opponent at the 20% he needed for the dual fairs that opens up Marth's entire air combo suite

And then he 4-stocks Cort anonymous by basically doing that on FD 4 times at SCC

Good ol' M2K

And yeah, Melee's mechanics are really good

 

[Cactuar]

God. I can't even count how many times he has hit me with that opener.

 

[Bones0]

Damn, I'm definitely going to pay attention to that 20% next time (and I guess find out what it is for all the top tiers).

 

[Cactuar]

Why would you care about what it is for other top tiers? None of them have the range to counterattack from that distance..

 

[Dr Peepee]

i dont really see how fair is that good against peach's aerial/floating options. mind explaining? there's probably something i'm not getting.

Well it's mostly your way of keeping her honest about floating. It won't work unless you feel like she's about to attack or float into you because her float spacing is usually pretty tight/back vs Marth. You Fair is faster than her Fair(and your Fair is really big) and your speed is greater than hers so it so it should totally work out for you, but only with commitment. Peach's float never did seem like something to easily react to, but I haven't fought it enough so what do I know lol.

Random question:

How do you avoid getting faired out of double fair combos in Marth dittos? Am I fairing too slowly (doubt it), or does it have something to do with not tipping? Does tipping affect stun? I'm guessing it does and it's dumb that I don't know that... I know it affects shield stun, but I've always just based hitstun on intuition.

well nvm kk more or less got it lol

To followup the commentary regarding flailing:

Back when I actually played Marth, I made sure to always tell myself: It doesn't matter how long they live, what percent they live to. All that matters is that I don't get hit, and that I keep hitting them.

Don't get impatient and try to get lucky with a kill move. This might work at lower levels of play, but it is so sooo easy to counterplay at high-top level play that the risk reward just isn't worth it.

Marth requires mindsets that are very controlled such as this to be successful. I enjoy the change of thought process from Falco. This is so calculated and precise, it's very different from how most characters must think.

20% is funny because (assuming no staling) M2K's old 2007 Marth ditto combo on FD was something like

f-throw > u-throw > u-tilt > fair > fair > freestyle ****

And the point of the beginning is basically put the opponent at the 20% he needed for the dual fairs that opens up Marth's entire air combo suite

And then he 4-stocks Cort anonymous by basically doing that on FD 4 times at SCC

Good ol' M2K

And yeah, Melee's mechanics are really good

never knew it was because of the 20%. very cool tidbit, thanks.

 

[Bones0]

Why would you care about what it is for other top tiers? None of them have the range to counterattack from that distance..

I guess that's true. Falcon and Ganon might cause problems with uair though.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

That moment when Bones gets beat by Bones logic

 

[Bones0]

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnhJ3IkLQ7s&feature=related

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't either, but its catchy and annoying as hell lol

 

[Sweet™]

Is it faster to do one of those "run to the edge, then moonwalk to ledge", or running and doing a short hop bair just before the edge?

In terms of edge grabbing, obv.

 

[Deleted member]

20% is funny because (assuming no staling) M2K's old 2007 Marth ditto combo on FD was something like

f-throw > u-throw > u-tilt > fair > fair > freestyle ****

And the point of the beginning is basically put the opponent at the 20% he needed for the dual fairs that opens up Marth's entire air combo suite

And then he 4-stocks Cort anonymous by basically doing that on FD 4 times at SCC

Good ol' M2K

And yeah, Melee's mechanics are really good

that combo is at least as old as 2004, i remember using that against husband in marth dittos at like bomb 3. and no, i didn't find it.

edit:

Fthrow/dthrow are for setting up positional advantage.

Upthrow is to set up combos/juggles and abuse the hell out of anyone who can't beat marth's uair.

what you actually said is that all 3 throws are positional advantage. up throw and downthrow are usually the correct choice, marths would be much better off if they used forward throw and dash attack sparingly.

 

[Bones0]

Is it faster to do one of those "run to the edge, then moonwalk to ledge", or running and doing a short hop bair just before the edge?

In terms of edge grabbing, obv.

You can't run into a moonwalk, only dash. I think the fastest way to grab the ledge is to run, WD, and turn around for the PC ledge grab. SH bairing and doing WD out, dash in (to turn around), WD out instead of PC dropping are definitely close though.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

You can't run into a moonwalk, only dash. I think the fastest way to grab the ledge is to run, WD, and turn around for the PC ledge grab. SH bairing and doing WD out, dash in (to turn around), WD out instead of PC dropping are definitely close though.

What about running to the edge, turning around on it to get the edge cancel then WD onto the ledge?

 

[MT_]

What about dashing towards the ledge, wave dash to cancel the dash and then pivot dropping???

 

[Cactuar]

what you actually said is that all 3 throws are positional advantage. up throw and downthrow are usually the correct choice, marths would be much better off if they used forward throw and dash attack sparingly.

Uthrow gives you a vertical positional advantage because you are underneath and have such a large hitbox advantage, but the opponent gets choice in his horizontal position, requiring you to combo/juggle and providing for escape opportunities, which is why I don't consider it in the same category in those terms.

Fthrow and Dthrow are used to specifically control the opponent's horizontal position, with the intent to put them closer to the edge. Solid gameplay using fthrow and dthrow allows you to play Marth with no real focus on combo game, but rather, with relatively good prediction and reaction ability, ALWAYS move your opponent, step by step, closer to being off stage.

My Marth vs Falcon game almost entirely relied on fthrow/dthrow chains, continuing until the Falcon was eventually close to the edge, ending with a knock-off. Fthrow and dthrow provide a very different type of control than having a vertical positional advantage.

@MT: Why would you do that instead of pivot wding back out of dash?

 

[KirbyKaze]

that combo is at least as old as 2004, i remember using that against husband in marth dittos at like bomb 3. and no, i didn't find it.

Wow you really are a dinosaur.

 

[MT_]

@MT: Why would you do that instead of pivot wding back out of dash?

Just to note, I was half-trolling because pivot-drops are stupidly hard to do consistently, but to answer: firstly you can't pivot out of a run (which is what I think we're talking about; how to get to the ledge the fastest while you're already running there from the other side of the stage or something). But if you meant pivot wavedash after you wavedash to cancel your run, then I think you lose some time for doing the second wavedash (at minimum, the 5-6 frames it takes Marth to jump). Simply pivot-dropping will eliminate the second wavedash altogether.

 

[Bones0]

Pivot dropping isn't that hard. Maybe I'll try to legitimately incorporate it into my game. It'd also let me do crazy stuff like pivot drop fair to gimp spacies who up-B close to the stage.

 

[Construct]

All of Cactuar's posts give me little epiphanies. Thank you Cactus man

 

[Cactuar]

@mt: you said dash towards the ledge, not run. Hence my comment.

@construct: ya thats kinda my thing.

 

[MT_]

Whoops.

 

[AustinRC]

All of Cactuar's posts give me little orgasms. Thank you Cactus man

Corrected and qft.

 

[knightpraetor]

just got around to doing a slow-mo runthrough of ppu vs zhu...

learned quite a few things. definitely a good watch if anyone hasn't seen it, or like me, only watched it at normal speed and missed a lot of stuff

 

[MasterShake]

Anything you'd like to share? I'm lazy.

 

[knightpraetor]

inside nair platform techchase and upthrow at zero on falco into reverse jab into side b or grab seemed nice

also a lot of fsmashes not taken and DI punished instead...and just a lot of edgeguarding that was maximally efficient and minimized DI effects rather than using fsmash

 

[Tee ay eye]

this isn't from zhu vs pewpewu necessarily (im speaking from experience rather than the match), but i guess i'll try to share some random tidbits about the marth vs falco MU since we're on the subject:

-you don't really have to be scared of getting hit by his lasers. sometimes, whenever falco hits you with a laser, he overestimates how long you're stunned, and then he thinks he's a little bit safer to go in or a little safer to retreat, so a lot of the time against falcos, i'll intentionally get hit by a laser and then immediately DD grab an approach from them or just man-mode my way through the laser and go in. for example, something i think i remember seeing a few times in pewpewu vs zhu, pewpewu would like, jump at zhu, get hit by a laser, (smash DI in to close the gap, possibly), and then just fair after getting hit by it.

-don't rely 100% on shielding in the neutral game. shielding is an important part of your mobility, but when you're in shield, you can't dash. yes, you can wavedash OOS and stuff, but it's NOT THE SAME. the small details in movement make a huge difference. wavedashes are a lot slower and easier to see than regular dashes, so if you're trapped in shield all the time, falco can lock you down a little more effectively knowing that you're not able to make huge adjustments in positioning with a giant dash back or a dash attack or something of the sort.

-empty fullhops and double jumps with wavelands are really nice to mix in with your neutral game IMO. you jump over a few lasers and then make it look like you're trying to go hard and hit falco. if he's convinced you're going to try to swing at him, then he can do 1 of 2 things: a) he'll try to challenge you, in which case, you can bait out his counterattack by wavelanding back or landing outside of his range. b) he'll try to retreat from you, in which case, you have successfully tricked him into surrendering a large chunk of space for free, and you have a fair amount of time to try to follow his retreat with your own aggression.

-something else i remember seeing zhu get punished a lot by is like.... pewpewu would run in with a shield to close a small amount of distance and scare zhu into making an aggressive mistake, which marth punished easily with an easy fair/nair out of shield or WD back. as i said earlier, shielding is an invaluable part of marth's movement game if you know how to use it effectively, and it's no exception vs falco. the defensive side to this situation would be pewpewu running in with a shield, zhu retreating, and then marth calling this retreat by wavedashing forward out of shield (or some other way of aggressing) or some other silliness.

-i know you guys hate counter, but i do think that counter is a good move to use from time to time against falco (ESPECIALLY AXE'S FALCO) if you choose your spots well. since falco's able to lock you down and throw so much **** at you, one well-placed counter can throw a lot of doubt into his mind about how he can approach you.

-falco kinda relies on being able to control the pace of the match, so the more you're able to throw him off balance with small things like this, the better shape you're in.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Corrected and qft.

LOL. <3

And yea Tai's post was good.

If anyone wants to learn a lot about how to play the MARTH VS FALCO matchup, just youtube search lambchops vs hbk.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i was almost late to class because of that post

np guys

 

[MT_]

@Tai I kind of disagree about the full hop/double jump baits. Falco should never be running away if Marth is that high in the air since he gains such a huge advantage when below Marth. The wave land back bait might work but if Falco just decides to overshoot or even just not go in, then you lose that much stage control already.

I dunno. I will mess with it but my first intuition is that it's not a good idea to willingly put yourself in the air vs Falco.

 

[Tee ay eye]

you don't have to get very close to him to make it work.

yes, i know marth sux **** in the air, but the point of baiting is to make it look like you're doing something really punishable while actually being safe enough to punish the opponent for trying to punish you.

if your opponent decides to not go in, and you land safely without getting punished, then you're probably at a more advantageous spacing than before.

 

[Bones0]

Wow, GREAT post. I immediately recognized from my experience a lot of the stuff you were talking about that I had never really been able to articulate, so I can tell you definitely know the matchup. A few things I want to say:

1. I agree with MT that Marth should never be FHing... like ever. As a Falco, I will run under and SH uair or FH nair trade with a Marth that FHs all day. I focus a LOT on getting Marth to use his DJ in any way possible because as soon as you get Marth offstage without his DJ, he's pretty much dead barring any clutch tech shenanigans. I'm also curious what you are baiting by FHing? Marth's so floaty that I don't see how Falco is at all forced to do anything. Worst case scenario he somehow spaces himself so bad that you can tipper fair as you come down (which will never happen tbh). If he's closer than that, you're at risk of easy CC punishes that Marth can't afford to take or he'll just stay out of your range and laser you out of the air and/or try to punish your landing. I don't think trying to smack Falco pouncing on your landing is even that bad. I just think you might as well SH in order to bait that stuff because it's less risk for the same reward. I would even say it has more reward because unlike with a FH, when you SH your fair is a constant threat as opposed to only being threatening at the beginning and end of the jump. I could see FH WLs onto plats working for Marth, but as far as empty FHs, the only way it would reliably work is if you jumped back as far as possible and hope they greatly overestimated how fast they could get to you. Even then, it gives up so much stage presence which is largely what enables Marth to control Falco so well.

2. In that same paragraph, you talked about how Falco has to either counterattack or retreat, but a third option I use a lot is to shield. One reason I see a lot of Falco players doing bad vs. Marth is because they shield way too much and get grabbed, but on the other end of the spectrum, there are the players that are so afraid to shield that they're constantly trying to retreat and end up DIing against utilts/dash attacks and DIing off stage while getting randomly fsmashed. Retreating is just such a risky maneuver because of how Marth's range almost doubles as soon as he touches the ground (fair range turns into dtilt/ftilt/fsmash/dash attack). I frequently feel like I get away with shielding and just WDing backwards as soon as their fair is done or if they do something like fair -> immediate utilt which I believe is completely avoided by buffered rolling. So from the Marth's standpoint, I'd be interested to learn from you or anyone else how to most efficiently capitalize in that moment when your fair hits their shield. Is it really just RPS that you have to condition them and feel out their options, or are there more general rules about what will work and how to cover the different options? It's always kind of mystified me because when I watch Mew2King it seems like he is just guessing the right option every time, and then I try to emulate that in my own play and end up looking ********. lol

 

[Tee ay eye]

maybe im not explaining it correctly/fully, or maybe there's some sort of misunderstanding, or maybe i'm just flat out wrong.

from my own experience, what i'm talking about works for me, but maybe the people i play against are just bad/inefficient

however, i will add that i still think fullhops are pretty dangerous and should be used very sparingly... but i still think that when used in moderation and with proper spacing, fullhops can still be used as an effective tool in marth vs falco

 

[Deleted member]

Uthrow gives you a vertical positional advantage because you are underneath and have such a large hitbox advantage, but the opponent gets choice in his horizontal position, requiring you to combo/juggle and providing for escape opportunities, which is why I don't consider it in the same category in those terms.

Fthrow and Dthrow are used to specifically control the opponent's horizontal position, with the intent to put them closer to the edge. Solid gameplay using fthrow and dthrow allows you to play Marth with no real focus on combo game, but rather, with relatively good prediction and reaction ability, ALWAYS move your opponent, step by step, closer to being off stage.

My Marth vs Falcon game almost entirely relied on fthrow/dthrow chains, continuing until the Falcon was eventually close to the edge, ending with a knock-off. Fthrow and dthrow provide a very different type of control than having a vertical positional advantage.

I consider vertical position better for marth than horizontal position because marth's range and dashdancing means that he'll basically always win an air to air engagement, or any time the opponent tries to land from the air as well. you absolutely don't need to be proactive with combos and juggles simply because your advantage is so strong that you can react and still largely maintain a favorable position for the duration of the entire stock. that's such an incredibly powerful advantage- with a qualifier, it doesn't work nearly as well if your opponent can edge cancel your upthrows or is jigglypuff, which is thankfully almost no one.

the horizontal positioning thing is only as good as the opposing character's ground game is. a strong ground game is essential to the better character in this game, so you're much better off doing a downthrow on falcon because of his crappy ground game or pichu/GAW because of their awful tech rolls. even then i would still suggest downthrow over forward throw because the lower trajectory almost forces a tech, which is something that the forward throw just doesn't do well. basic things like fair > grab > downthrow are really devastating against falcon because the advantage they offer is clear and absolute.

marth never has to play a combo game simply because he can react to snuff options so very easily. just because you can dial-a-combo doesn't mean that you should.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Fair is a big *** threat and Falco has a hard time countering it if you know which angles to approach at.

The aerial/platform style of Marth v Falco is very legitimate and should be used as a compliment to the grounded one. You can actually win the matchup with just one or the other, but having both adds more depth to your game.

 

[Bones0]

Can you find any clips of a Marth using FH? I know that's really specific, but maybe you had a specific instance in mind.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Can you find any clips of a Marth using FH? I know that's really specific, but maybe you had a specific instance in mind.

Theres a lot. But off the top of my head, check out one of the early PP/M2K sets (I think its on durhamred; M2K wins, SleepyK is commentating). The game on dreamland is particularly good.

Also, if you want FD (tho fullhop is a lot better with platforms), check the APEX 2012 HBK/Shiz match.

 

[Bones0]

Umbreon, what do you recommend doing after dthrowing people? Do you focus mostly on just regrabbing and working them towards the edge, or is the point of dthrow to lead into Marth's combo game easier? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is why you would not dial-a-combo once you get the opening...

Thanks, Crimson, I'll check out some of those.