Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[GHNeko]

Pretty sure the reverse hitbox as a surprise kill move while moving away from your opponent is the biggest reason.

If they're too close to dash cancel then sure WD Dtilt can be okay, but keep in mind that you can run up SH retreating Fair, walk up Dtilt/jab/whatever, or other options you may not be considering. Poking can be done in many ways.

that leads me into my next question.

can you list a bunch of good reliable poking options for Marth? mostly for the neutral game?

 

[AustinRC]

There are literally a bajillion zoning tools man. Mix up your dd to be unpredictable and after you make people respect your pokes start doing feints to trick them into over commiting to something. Also remember gaining stage control is just as good as getting a hit.

 

[Cactuar]

LITERALLY A BAJILLION.

Made me laugh.

+1

 

[KirbyKaze]

All you really need is twirly thing, dash dance, and sword.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Pretty sure the reverse hitbox as a surprise kill move while moving away from your opponent is the biggest reason.



that leads me into my next question.

can you list a bunch of good reliable poking options for Marth? mostly for the neutral game?

depends on the matchup.

anything involving Dtilt is usually good, run up fair in some fashion is usually good, jab can be good vs spacies and Marth, anything into ftilt is good vs spacies sometimes and puff/marth/sheik(if you call a jump), Nair while in place or moving slightly forward or backward.....

there's just too much lol. too many nuances and too many ways to set up those nuances.

I suggest also working on your movement to expand these options and make them better+open up more for yourself

 

[KirbyKaze]

Your movement should be done in a way that allows you to respond to your opponent's options with yours. One of the many functions movement serves is to open up options when the opponent's efforts have robbed you of some (whether this is a result of them being in your face, far away, etc).

One of my biggest peeves with players is when their movement is done mainly to look super pretty but doesn't actually accomplish them anything.

 

[Cactuar]

What about when the movement is done mainly to look super pretty, but is also super effective at accomplishing things?

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's the best kind of movement.

 

[Tee ay eye]

axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe axe

 

[Cactuar]

Arizona never did understand the art of subtlety.

 

[AustinRC]

Oh also I forgot to cite my sources. Everything I know about neutral game or at least a very large portion of it is from Dr.Peepee.

<3 Cactus

 

[Meneks]

Not really sure how to approach peach

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dtilllllllt

also fair her float if you can react to it quickly enough

 

[MasterShake]

Is it wise to approach dj fair a peach when she's floating backwards? Not sure if it reaches or not. I've just never really seen a sh fair not get greeted by the crown unless you can catch the peach at an awkward timing, when they're not really prepared.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Arizona never did understand the art of subtlety.

They play mostly low tier. They don't know any better.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is it wise to approach dj fair a peach when she's floating backwards? Not sure if it reaches or not. I've just never really seen a sh fair not get greeted by the crown unless you can catch the peach at an awkward timing, when they're not really prepared.

If she's floating backward just take your stage unless you can get close enough/catch her drifting in to FH/DJ Fair. Just depends on how you wanna do it and where you wind up when she's floating backward and you notice.

 

[Bones0]

If she's floating backwards, a very safe and reliable way of hitting her is to spam your side-B and make sure you tilt up on the last hit to do the overhead swipe. Works every time.

 

[AustinRC]

Bones you are my hero.

 

[MT_]

If Peach is floating, hold up your shield and bait a float-cancel fair and then counter OOS right before it hits you.

 

[Cactuar]

If Peach is floating, hold up your shield and bait a float-cancel fair and then counter OOS right before it hits you.

*facepalm*

 

[Bones0]

*facepalm*

*uses counter OoS vs. your facepalm*

 

[kd-]

させるものか! 今回は僕の勝ちだね?

 

[Meneks]

Dtilllllllt

also fair her float if you can react to it quickly enough

Really?

Dtilt?
as an approach option?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Really?

Dtilt?
as an approach option?

As long as you space it properly so you don't end up eating a dsmash it might just be the best approach option.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Really?

Dtilt?
as an approach option?

YES

what can she do about it? shield? WOO

jump? WOO now I can Fair(next time if not this time)

CC? WOO I can space

dash attack? you're ASDI'ing down so that shouldn't work for a while but if so LOL get read

 

[ChivalRuse]

Really?

Dtilt?
as an approach option?

Not trying to make you look bad or anything, but if you're having trouble seeing the viability of d-tilt as an approach (and many would argue the superiority of the move in many applications pertaining to neutral situations) you might be at risk of contracting something called "closed-mindedness", which hinders players from getting better.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

whats WOO, i cant figure it out

 

[Dr Peepee]

an exclamation of joy

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh lmao

 

[.Chipmunk.]

whats WOO, i cant figure it out

an exclamation of joy

It's Wave Oscillate Out. Don't lie to him PP

 

[Tee ay eye]

i dont really see how fair is that good against peach's aerial/floating options. mind explaining? there's probably something i'm not getting.

 

[clowsui]

So I'd say what happens with FAir is that it comes out so quick and reaches so far that she has to respect it and either aim for trades or punish its cooldown.

Think of it this way: Peach tries to engage aerial combat with you. She begins to approach into the range at which your fair can hit and at a good height.

If she comes directly into the range of your fair she'll get hit.
If she doesn't come into the range of your fair, if you don't swing there's no problem - you can retreat (ff; WD back, etc.)
If she floats in and out of the range of your fair, and you swing, then you get punished during cooldown.
If she floats in and out of the range of your fair, and you swing and she swings at the same time, she wins the trade.
If she floats in and out of the range of your fair, and you DON'T swing, then she's running out of float time and either has to go for a timing/spacing trick or retreat.
Uhhhh are there any different generalizations of the scenario? LOL

Oh ummmmm if she baits the fair out and doesn't immediately punish but instead lands before you land then you did a bad FAir but it's okay because she really doesn't have a means to punish you strongly unless you're REALLY antsy.

Out of these six scenarios, there's only two which Peach actualizes any sort of advantage: she punishes your cooldown or punishes you via trade.

Both of these qualify as counterattacking options, which Marth thrives on because they're easy to bait and punish as Marth - in this case you would be able to easily assert control over her behavior after landing (she has no real close range options, movement sucks relative to yours etc)

 

[Deleted member]

also, you guys should tell me why im bad at this game

character specific, you're allowing sheik to use her natural ability to get under marth's sword sweeps with dash attack and grab. you can negate this with clever use of your ground game, IASA frames, or just relying less on your air game from neutral.

non-character specific, you're not using your set-ups to set up advantage when you know you can't combo, you just go for it and hope it will combo when it never does. stop doing forward throw > nothing, do upthrows and work with the fact that your opponent is screwed even if you follow with absolutely nothing. stop doing blind fsmashes and use your position to set up repeated edge guards until you get something guaranteed.

 

[Cactuar]

Fthrow/dthrow are for setting up positional advantage.

Upthrow is to set up combos/juggles and abuse the hell out of anyone who can't beat marth's uair.

Bthrow is pretty much only good when you know it'll force someone onto a platform, leading you to free tipper fsmashes.

That being said, I go for fthrow->dash->sh->aerial all the time, even though I tell people not to. If they mess up the DI, its a free heavy combo if you tip the rising sh fair, or if you middlehit the rising fair into uair. If they DI it properly and tech, dair->reaction follow.

 

[Bones0]

I saw PPU just do bthrow -> fsmash on spacies at high % in that recent tournament (Rule 6?). Does that only work if they DI a certain way?

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Meneks

D-tilt is a relatively low commitment move that helps give Marth control of the ground (combined with dash dance, grab, and other shenanigans but those are the other main ones). As a general rule, nobody wants to fight Marth from the air because sword. So controlling the ground is obviously important because... it's how almost every character wants to fight him. Anything that facilitates ground control is probably something Marth will like because his character is a walking anti-air anyway just by design.

D-tilt also swings in front of him, quickly, and doesn't have a lame arc for the opponent to out-time. So long as it starts up, it comes out where it's supposed to be. None of this... "It almost protected me!" nonsense that his fair and such sometimes incur due to the nature of arc moves. There are some drawbacks to the move, but it really does do a lot for Marth.

Because of its range & low lag, d-tilt can often lead to hilariously illegitimate combos too. God knows I've landed d-tilt > grab way too many times to count (opponent gets d-tilted, shields, then grab [although admittedly I don't grab in reaction to the shield... more out of habit than anything... though my Marth sucks anyway lol]). D-tilt can't be counterattacked easily (especially if you spaced it decently) so you can punish their defensive decision (which is what PP was getting at with his little thing on responses to d-tilt and their counters).

Also, dair > grab can be cute if people CC into an attack vs d-tilt. It's not significantly better than just grabbing them though (unless hitting the dair puts them into a specific percent that opens up a combo option, which sometimes comes up vs Sheik and such).

Random side note that has nothing to do with d-tilt: sourspot u-tilt ***** super hard.



@ Tai

You seem sloppy at the edge at some very inconvenient times. Kind of lame to have the edgeguard follow all nice & ready to go on Sheik and then poof hits you :/

You also seem to flail a lot with kill moves when you can't put the stock away or mess up. Can't lose composure like that. You start to look visibly sloppier and make awful decisions leaving platforms, in ground combat, etc. I get that it's frustrating or whatever and sometimes we can't but think "Why won't this b*%$# die?!" but you can't let that frustration (or whatever emotion) show in your play.

I feel you waste a lot of grabs. Like, you have combos or platform setups at X% but forgo them to do a tech throw. Which can work, I guess... but why do more work? This guy seems to have some bad combo break habits anyway so I don't see why you wouldn't toss him above you or on the platform :/

I don't think f-smash should ever be used mid-stage vs Sheik unless you're comboing into it, tipping it, or tech chasing it. Grab and other launchers (u-tilt I guess?) will always lead to better things IMO.

I think you should try sourspot u-tilt as an edgeguard move. It feels like it hits Sheik off at a better angle than f-smash. You have to time it as she's standing from the Up+B lag though - you can't just do it ASAP or her animation will crouch it.

I feel that comboing for Marth vs Sheik should prioritize maintaining control so he can set up an easier edgeguard if possible. I saw you end a combo on BF with reverse Up+B but I feel if you continued to 'hold' Sheik and push her offstage, you probably could have gotten a better return. Sheik doesn't really have a good way down from Marth or around him (low aerial mobility) so I really think push-style combos (as long as you protect yourself well) can be brutal on her. Well, as brutal as Marth can be to her, anyway. It may seem dumb to finish with soft fair but it doesn't really matter what you hit Sheik off with as long as you can force her to poof...

 

[Bones0]

Random question:

How do you avoid getting faired out of double fair combos in Marth dittos? Am I fairing too slowly (doubt it), or does it have something to do with not tipping? Does tipping affect stun? I'm guessing it does and it's dumb that I don't know that... I know it affects shield stun, but I've always just based hitstun on intuition.

 

[Cactuar]

To followup the commentary regarding flailing:

Back when I actually played Marth, I made sure to always tell myself: It doesn't matter how long they live, what percent they live to. All that matters is that I don't get hit, and that I keep hitting them.

Don't get impatient and try to get lucky with a kill move. This might work at lower levels of play, but it is so sooo easy to counterplay at high-top level play that the risk reward just isn't worth it.

 

[Wenbobular]

@Bones - tipped Fairs are pretty obviously stronger than untipped Fairs <_<

 

[Bones0]

To followup the commentary regarding flailing:

Back when I actually played Marth, I made sure to always tell myself: It doesn't matter how long they live, what percent they live to. All that matters is that I don't get hit, and that I keep hitting them.

Don't get impatient and try to get lucky with a kill move. This might work at lower levels of play, but it is so sooo easy to counterplay at high-top level play that the risk reward just isn't worth it.

[COLLAPSE=]

[/COLLAPSE]

@Bones - tipped Fairs are pretty obviously stronger than untipped Fairs <_<

Strength isn't the same as stun though. (Is it? >_>)

If it is, do staled moves have less stun than non-staled moves? Maybe if your fair is super staled they can get out even if it's tipped or something.