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Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
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16,256
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that video was awesome

haley, did you know you were gonna make it to the top platform to fsmash during that one tech chase?
 
Dart!

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
Location
East Peoria, IL
I think we should talk about the marth ganon matchup some more. i'm curious to hear opinions, facts/ frame data on this.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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play movement games, make him swing. Your shield game beats everything he has that resembles pressure.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Thats not true. Ganon's uair and bair are both quite fast and hit through many of marth's moves. Fair tucks him back before he swings which lets him dodge and then punish many attacks in a way similar to falcon's sideb.

In general, if you swing, you better hit. But same goes for him, even more so for him, so take advantage of that.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
All of that is a given. You have to anticipate his swinging and control his space. Ganon can't chase you down, so as long as you're aware of his ranges, while maintaining a substantial amount of pressure without overcommitting, you can lock him down fairly well.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Obviously Ganon can punish you for whiffing. That's why I said put hitboxes in his zones, not attack where he is. There's a difference. Zoning entails limiting your opponent by shutting down one or more of their strongest options. You can do things like jab and d-tilt barely at and perhaps outside of their tip ranges in order to confirm Ganon's inital retaliatory responses (such as retreating, approaching, or jumping). Regardless of what he chooses to do, you haven't overcommitted, and therefore you can react with impunity, transitioning into attacks that require more commitment like SH fair/nair, since you would at that point have a better grasp of Ganon's immediate options and know that you can go for something with a higher reward, and in that instance you would be better assured of its safety.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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Yes i know how you play the game. Thats all rather interesting, but what you said wasn't exactly correct. I simply pointed that out. Please feel free to respond with an extra condescending paragraph instead of admitting what i said might be right.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
8,413
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I was clarifying the context. Anything in this game is punishable if you do it at the wrong time with bad spacing (thus any character is fast enough to punish anything if executed poorly). My point was that Ganon has trouble getting in if you know all his options and limit them.
 
TheCrimsonBlur

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
Damn guys that was a pretty bad sequence of posts.

I might write more if I have time, but I've found that as long as you know how to combo and edgeguard Ganon really, really well, he can't keep up with your damage output. Marth ****ing wrecks Ganon in both those aspects. So I think a lot of discussion should be put into that over spacing; I find the spacing to be fairly straightforward...Ganon has a pretty predictable zone, kind of like Marth. There are a lot of tricks to improve combos/edgeguarding, a few off the top of my head are nairs at early-mid % (most of you know this), ftilt to wavedash fsmash (ftilt forces ganon into tech position a lot of the times oddly), bair dash attack, etc.
 
DondonSF

DondonSF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
446
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Fairfield,California
how bad is it for Marth to get grabbed by Ganon?from what I see his down throw can lead into a lot of things on Marth pretty much anywhere he tries to DI.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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No. Marth will get comboed. I try to DI to weird places to make it harder for the ganon to follow up/get good positioning. For example, if i get grabbed at the edge with ganon facing out I would DI toward the center of the stage. Thats not necessarily the thing to do if ganon was facing into the stage. If you DI his dthrow forward he has enough time to dash past you and bair you.

As for the match-up, I do believe marth has a better guaranteed edge guard. If marth shows his ***, he can bair/dair/hog 100% of ganon's options in most scenarios. Also, marth can dtilt/fsmash/neutral b for ever but that gives ganon the chance to tech. Marth isnt really special here, anyone can do that **** to ganon.

Ganon's edge guard is fairly sound too. A technically sound ganon player can do all the normal "grab edge, hit back off" ****. He also has some strong mixups and kill confirms, mostly revolving around reverse uair and occasionally dair (surprisingly few people have learned the awkward timing of this meteor).

On stage its sort of even, but I think marth's speed and a better shield and grab give him a nice edge. A hit from either character and the other is gonna be in some pain.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
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17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
ChivalRuse said:
And Marth's edgeguards **** Ganon.
Click to expand...
I was addressing Crimson's notion that Marth has a huge, gigantic advantage in edgeguarding. I don't really think he does.

Ganon has a very good edgeguard on Marth. Marth's may be better, sure, but Ganon's is still very good and works most of the time.

Ganon can get aerials and F-tilt from grab pretty easily, and sometimes do funny jab combos.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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8,413
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College Park, MD
@ Sveet: I don't get what you mean when you keep saying "Marth's better shield." Marth's shield blows. Gets stabbed by Ganon's fair so easily.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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ah that is very true.

though in the case ganon hits your shield and doesn't poke, marth generally is left in a better position than ganon
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Ganon will not have a frame advantage on marth's shield. I suppose if ganon hits fairly low he will have the frame advantage immediately after that, but none of his ground options have advantage on shield.

Again, ganon has answers to marth's choices, but his option coverage isn't very sound.

Some ganons will space a jab/ftilt on marth's shield as to bait him into doing sh fair OoS, only to CC it and then uair.
 
Jun.

Jun.

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
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UC San Diego
imo Marth vs Ganon is a campfest. Both have good range so both players will just run around until somone spaces something wrong.
 
TheCrimsonBlur

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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Jan 2, 2005
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LA, CA near Santa Monica
Ah, I think you guys misunderstood me. I didn't mean Marth has a gigantic edge in edgeguarding/punishment, I meant that Ganon has a hard time dealing with the pressure of a Marth who combos and edgeguards very well. And since most of the spacing is straightforward, the matchup comes down to whether the Marth can keep Ganon under pressure with combos/edgeguarding or not. Therefore, I think talking about combo options is most beneficial...

And though I do agree that Ganon has a mean edgeguard/punishment game against Marth, I'd say that Marth still has the advantage in those categories..
 
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