Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Strong Badam]

...Depends on % and character as well as DI.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

...Depends on % and character as well as DI.

Alright, say you see someone falling towards those two lower platforms from a great height. Marth is standing underneath that particular platform they are falling towards. Now that person expects to tech the platform. If timed correctly, Utilt will hit them before they can touch the platform and tech right? In other words, Utilt can cover that option to tech by hitting them before they have the chance to do so.

 

[Strong Badam]

Depends in their falling speed and whether or not they're fast-falling, but generally yes.

 

[Wenbobular]

A lot of people accidentally try to jump cancel grab when trying to grab behind them at low percents. If you jump cancel grab, it cancels your turn around animation and makes you grab forward, when just pressing grab would make you grab behind you even if the turn around animation has not completed.

O my god.
Thank you so much.

 

[MT_]

I used to have trouble the same way Cactuar described when wavedashing backwards then trying to grab the other direction. It really pissed me off when I grabbed the wrong way haha.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'm pretty sure if you JC on the pivot frame, you will grab in the correct way.

 

[Cactuar]

My statement had nothing to do with pivots... A standing turnaround is different than a pivot.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Now that you mention it. Is there any real benefit to pivot jump canceled grabs compared to a regular pivot grab? They seem to accomplish the same thing.

 

[stelzig]

You won't lag as much from the grab if you mess up the pivot?
Other than that people just do it because they're used to JC their grabs when dashing (myself included... Never JC'd for turnaround though. Appearently a good thing)

 

[#HBC | Mac]

pivot grab with jc is easier than doing it without. Since you don't really have to pivot. The jump cancels your dash for you.

 

[Wenbobular]

If you mess up you still go forward though, which usually defeats the purpose haha

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i never had trouble using JCgrab out of a dash/dash dance, only when stationary (for the cg)

 

[makoforce]

why would you JC grab standing still? your'e just making your grab slower

 

[Tee ay eye]

i like your sig wenbo

 

[KirbyKaze]

wenbo bobular is a crazy awesome dude

 

[Strong Badam]

pivot grab with jc is easier than doing it without. Since you don't really have to pivot. The jump cancels your dash for you.

if you're canceling your dash with jump, then you aren't pivoting correctly.

 

[mers]

IMO, it's worth learning to pivot grab without the JC, cause when chaingrabbing you have to be very close to frame perfect, and the 1-4 extra frames the jump requires makes things that much tougher.

Alright, say you see someone falling towards those two lower platforms from a great height. Marth is standing underneath that particular platform they are falling towards. Now that person expects to tech the platform. If timed correctly, Utilt will hit them before they can touch the platform and tech right? In other words, Utilt can cover that option to tech by hitting them before they have the chance to do so.

Yes, although the timing is pretty tough. I believe you can also do it with fsmash, which is even harder. All of this is easier on YS/FoD and tougher on BF, obviously.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My statement had nothing to do with pivots... A standing turnaround is different than a pivot.

why do you always get so defensive when i post something?

 

[Jun.]

I swear whenever someone mentions pivots in this thread, it starts a fire.

 

[stelzig]

IMO, it's worth learning to pivot grab without the JC, cause when chaingrabbing you have to be very close to frame perfect, and the 1-4 extra frames the jump requires makes things that much tougher.

I've always been under the impression that the jump input isn't registered if you pivot properly because you can't jump while turning around, while when you do miss the pivot, but still turn around you'll still move a bit forward and then JC grab.

But I may be wrong not sure you can input a jump like that and not have it registered. Never tried.

 

[mers]

I've always been under the impression that the jump input isn't registered if you pivot properly because you can't jump while turning around, while when you do miss the pivot, but still turn around you'll still move a bit forward and then JC grab.

But I may be wrong not sure you can input a jump like that and not have it registered. Never tried.

I'm almost certain this is wrong. I think pivot aerials disprove this. A pivot takes literally one frame to occur, and is much different from a turnaround that isn't during a dash. The first frame after you press the opposite direction to pivot, your character registers in the standing position, facing away from the direction they were just moving. Since they are standing, if you input a jump, it still registers.

Since for the chaingrab, the whole "moving forward a bit" thing still ruins it, there's really no point in JCing the grab.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

if you're canceling your dash with jump, then you aren't pivoting correctly.

did I not say this in my post?

it works almost the exact same and looks almost the exact same. For cgs it seems to be important to do an actual pivot tho.

 

[Cactuar]

why do you always get so defensive when i post something?

Eh? It wasn't defensive, I was just pointing out that you posted in response to the topic with something that was not addressed by the topic.

 

[JBM falcon08]

cactuar could we start talking about strategies against peach and puff What are some baits you use?

Do you approach everytime you read someone? Or is patient game better?
What is the right pace to play?
How to get those high percent kills.
should you play using more aerials, or stay grounded?


If we could talk about that and what stages to ban/cp.

 

[Cactuar]

Marth vs Peach and Puff is soooo boring. >.>


What I do...

Marth vs Peach

Defensive Play - Mostly neutral DD and shffl fair camping. Peach either goes and grabs a turnip or tries to dash attack you. You avoid turnip and proceed, or react in time to the dash attack and punish it in some way. Peach's best way in here is making you do something with the turnip because it distracts you and Marth is a slow *******, but if you just keep avoiding the turnip, you will be getting zoned and put in a disadvantageous position sooner or later.

Aggressive Play - Slightly inside neutral. Looking for grab opportunities. Very aggressive about not letting Peach pull turnips. Risky because Peach's attacks are faster than yours in close quarters, so you have to be careful about when to commit.

Combination Play - Throwing in random dtilt and fb approaches. It is really just meant to be ground pressure to either force her into shield or get them to jump. Also prevents you from getting zoned too heavily. Once they are in shield, you can really just stand in front of them until they do something and then punish them.


Marth vs Puff

Defensive Play - Just play campy till you land a hit. If at any point it looks like you are even slightly at risk of dropping a combo, bail and reset to neutral. Keep everything spaced well. Be a douche.

Aggressive Play - Abuse your ground speed getting inside. Wait for them to do something. Punish with your huge ****sword. Only bad thing is that most punishes involve countering their reaction (an aerial) by going aerial, where you lose to Puff. Puff's high horizontal movement speed and low vertical movement speed in the air abuses one of Marth's biggest weaknesses, which is how many available holes there are to punish in all of his aerials. Whenever you commit to doing an aerial, you will be at risk. Random smashes are dangerous because if you get shielded, you can get rested. You also can't really zone Puff because they have no problem with just going off stage or onto the ledge and waiting forever.

Random Thoughts - This matchup is so sooooo gay.



I am always playing either aggressive defensive or defensive aggressive. I only go straight aggressive or straight defensive in teams where I have a teammate to play the other role.

"Reading" someone well enough to engage only happens after I have gotten them into a certain zone where I feel comfortable. This is kinda like a set up zone where, if they initiate, I have room to either react and punish, or reset to neutral. And once you are in that trap, even if I can't combo you, you will get hit over and over because you will have a hard time getting out and resetting to neutral. It's a setup that leads into more setups over and over. This is a hard thing to start on Falco because of lasers.

The right pace is really just whatever you are comfortable with. The thing that really sets people apart is how good they are at making the opponent play at their pace, or being more comfortable with your opponent's pace than they are. Or both.

Once I get past certain percentages, I drop the idea of killing them. Sure, I'll still look for utilt opportunities, but my goal is really to just keep hitting them with any move and racking their damage up. To me, it doesn't matter how long they live at that point, as long as they don't hit me. Advantage is only lost, or disadvantage increased, if they do more damage to you. Who cares if they live to 300 before they die if you don't take any damage the entire time?

The aerial vs grounded thing is really matchup dependent.

 

[Niko45]

What about edgeguarding puff.

I find if you just stand at the ledge more often than not they'll go high and you can get an up air out of it but sometimes they kinda float in lowish (still above you but not like sh up air height) and try to get behind you and throw a bair out or just not and float further away to reset cause you have to respect the bair there.

Anyway can you just talk about taking advantage of puff off stage a bit.

Also what do you do/look for if puff is actually on the ledge.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. I don't fight Puff off stage, so I wouldn't be a good person to ask about that. I rarely go off stage because I'm good at preventing people from getting from holding the edge to actually back on.

 

[Niko45]

Oh no I'm not saying go offstage yourself...

Just saying, puff offstage IS at a disadvantage. What do you do to hit her as she tries to come back?

And I also asked about the ledge.

 

[Cactuar]

Nvm, I'll rewrite this with what I look for as they are recovering.

 

[Niko45]

Seems to me like her most ranged attack from the ledge is pound, so do you space to guard against that, and then if she comes up with bairs/ fairs you just let her land on stage and then try to push an advantage on her from there while she's backed down to the ledge?

 

[Cactuar]

Edge Guarding: Preventing someone from recovering straight to the edge or on stage.

Puff is recovering from high -

This will be the case 90%+ of the time. Fair them at mid percent? She's coming down from high. Fsmashed her? Coming down from high. etc. Honestly, if they go for the ledge, they have enough options that jumping out and trying to hit them will likely get turned around somehow and you lose a stock or take unnecessary damage. The risk/reward just isn't in your favor. Sit on the stage at a safe distance from the edge and prepare to either be a douche or to let them back on. If they overextend and recover onto the stage instead of going for the edge for whatever reason, get under them and shark them with uairs. She can't descend fast enough for you to get punished.

Puff is recovering horizontally/straight toward the edge -

This only really happens when they mess up their DI on something. I would just stand there and do something safe hoping to hit them back out. If they make it near the edge and grab it, just back up to edge neutral.

Puff is recovering from low -

Usually only happens if you hit them with a dair or if they really messed up an edgeguard and you got back sooner than they did. You can safely dair the edge as they get up with rising pound or their repeated jumps, but usually they will go out from the stage a bit and make this a horizontal recovery, so it won't really work out. And once they get to the ledge, they can just airdodge up and on, which really only gets punished with moves that send horizontally/vertically.


Thoughts on Puff coming back to the stage - As Marth, this is really frustrating because there really isn't all that much you can do other than watch her return to the edge without exposing you to a high risk low reward situation.


Ledge Guarding/Stage Guarding: Preventing someone from getting on stage from holding the edge.

Ledge Guarding vs Puff: The only options Puff really has that are different when it comes to this situation is that she has the extra jumps, and the ability to turn around and bair into the stage because of it. React however you are comfortable imo. Your objective is to keep pushing them off, not necessarily killing them. Keep that in mind before throwing out random fsmashes hoping for an early kill. If the Puff is overly patient, don't hesitate to just go to the middle of the stage and let them on. At worst, you are at neutral.

At edge neutral, Puff's pound can't reach you before you react to it. Neither can the ljturnaround bair. Edge neutral is a safe place for you, while giving you time to do safe responses to them forcing their way on stage.

There are always safe ways to get on stage, don't sweat it if they get on, just reset yourself to neutral spacing.

 

[Strong Badam]

it works almost the exact same and looks almost the exact same. For cgs it seems to be important to do an actual pivot tho.

you actually didn't.
you could have easily just said "I accomplish the same thing by doing x"
it's a trivial matter anyway
shhh Cactuar is talking about floaty match-ups

 

[Wii Lee]

I think it would be a good idea to gather all these toughts on a single matchups thread (with the "approaching falco" thread too)
The Marth forum miss this

 

[Cactuar]

Done. It's called: Official "Ask Cactuar Stuff... about Stuff" Thread

Why? Because apparently, I know more than anyone else.

 

[Wii Lee]

All the stuff here is splitted, and we have to go through all the pages or look for a very specific question to have the informations. I was thinking about a thread where all your toughts on Marth's matchups are on the first page and not separated by multiple questions, that you could update whenever you want. It would be 1000 times more convenient.
Look at the falco forum : There's an "Ask PeePee stuff" AND a matchup thread.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth players are too cool for matchup threads.

 

[Cactuar]

Its actually because every matchup for Marth is just "Swing your sword. If you can't hit them, swing it better. Oh and grab them."

 

[JBM falcon08]

Yeah cactuar fell off the map for a bit, but lately he's been more active giving advice.

Cactuar, what would you say your marth is missing to be m2k calibur?

 

[Jun.]

edgeguarding

i think

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

cybernetic implants i think