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mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
If you're not getting shield grabs on CF's nair idk what to say, it works on absolutely every CF I've played. Aim your shield upwards? Regardless of aerial, if you crouch in shield you can just cc grab CF's jabs and get a free grab that way.

If CF is actually aggressively nair approaching you it doesn't get any free-er than that.
I tend to run into the problem of CF nairing my shield, then dashing away so I whiff my (clearly in range otherwise) shield grab. I mean, obviously I can just not grab, but is it possible for him to do this if I am frame perfect with my grab, or do I just suck?
 

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
Location
East Peoria, IL

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
I tend to run into the problem of CF nairing my shield, then dashing away so I whiff my (clearly in range otherwise) shield grab. I mean, obviously I can just not grab, but is it possible for him to do this if I am frame perfect with my grab, or do I just suck?
I guess maybe it depends how they're spacing it? I guess I could see this happening if they're spacing so only the 2nd hit of CF's nair is hitting you, but if both nair hits are hitting your shield I feel like you must be messing up if you're not getting a grab.
 

Piman34

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
1,309
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
3DS FC
3454-0406-0497
how do you do the ledgehop neutral b regrab the ledge? is it an edge cancel? or just really quick fingers lol
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,406
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
Niko, Crimson Blur, Tai...i would like some critique!

i finally have a good video of me playing someone good that you guys may know

Dart vs Unknown (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj69pT9tI8A&feature=feedu

Dart vs Unknown (falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-ZbN4JSSXk&feature=feedu


be aware that i did not sleep at all the night before, so if you see any repetitive stuff that gets me caught keep that in mind ;)
Interesting matches. You've got some things to improve on but you also had some awesome highlights that should make you proud...lotta **** moments. :)

Tai is right when he says your major weakness is your anti-approaches (he wrote a post in the other thread). It amazes me how good you are with so little movement; you stand in place a lot. Unfortunately, not moving can be quite a problem when dealing with a high-aggro, speedy space animal. The reason why you were doing so much better against Falco than Fox is because Fox is just that much faster than Falco; you had a hard time containing him and couldn't react to his approaches with your usual anti approach (aerial or utilt). So basically DD and WD back more.

But since Tai dealt with the most glaring weakness , I guess I'll cover some of the more minor details. Besides, movement is a tough thing to fix and will take a while to get down, so I though I'd give you tips that you can implement a lot quicker.

1. Recovery: Fox is one of the best edgeguarders of Marth (I'd say only Sheik is better), but you have to make him work for it. Falco has a tough time covering Marths options so you got away with a lot there. Primarily, you've gotta fast-fall more. The best thing about Marths recovery is that with proper timing, you can force people off the ledge. You seem to understand that side-b can stall that timing, but realize that fast-fall can accelerate that timing too. The greatness of side-b is that you can make it very ambiguous if you are stalling or accelerating your recovery with each use; you can choose to do a normal side-b to stall or side-b to fastfall to accelerate. Always keep in mind that side-b resets your fastfall; press down quickly at the top of your side-b and you will get a new fastfall. Mix in the fact that your jump can be fastfalled too (jump->fastfall->normal side-b is very hard to cover. Marth accelerates and decelerates quickly), and you have a lot of mix-up options. Neutral jumping is another valuable mix-up (jumping straight up rather than with momentum in either direction), that will make them reconsider going down there for a shine. Instead of all of these reliable mix-ups, you seemed to just up-b high (which should almost never be used, or at least used only sparingly) and die lol.

Also, you have to make sure you consider whether your side-b is safe or not. Good Foxes (Falco can't do this) react to side-b and either bair or shine. Know the spacing for when you can and can't use it or you are just giving them a free edgeguard. Also don't jump over a Fox like you do in 7:02 of that match.

Recovery is an easy thing to fix so I'd be very optimistic if I were you. Once you know all the mix-ups and the options, implementing it in match is rather easy. Just work on it and in a months time you'll have mastered it. Its something simple that can move you up a level without much work (unlike the bigger criticism: anti-approach).

2. Top platform coverage. You seem to fair (sometimes fair jump fair) and bair the top platform a lot. These are very unsafe. Uair, waveland in place to grab, and dair are your best options (nair isn't bad if you are sure you will hit--you seem to nair a lot so I wouldn't worry about that one). Especially uair. Uair ****ing *****.

Rewatch the matches (esp v. Falco) and notice top platform situations. Think about what you could have done in each scenario. A lot of combo/momentum situations died when he DIed into that top platform.

3. Crouch cancelling. I am ****ing terrible at this but I thought I should mention it. A lot of "easy" (people call them easy but I miss them all the time lolz) CC situations were missed. When a spacie is on a side-platform, CC his approaching aerial and ****. When he is high above you, he'll likely come down with an aerial so just CC and ****. This falls under anti-approach a bit but it doesn't involve movement so it should be a little easier to fix.

Hope that helped. :)
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
well first of all tell me how to do backward fair to dair...i can't seem to get the jump to dair out. i just fastfall and die
i use c-stick for the fair
and either A/c-stick for the dair (i dont remember LOL)
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
derp, i'm stupid. i accidentally replied to your (dart's) matches in the marth video critique thread.

disclaimer: i don't promise that this is good advice. i sorta just watched the matches and began talking out my *** with general impressions/assumptions

hopefully it helps :)

vs fox:
i think you were being a little too passive and predictable with your anti-approaches.

you probably could've benefited from more movement (dashdancing with shields and wavedashes) or aggression since there was a bunch of space between you two, and he was playing sorta patiently, but you were sorta cornered and got punished for swinging your sword a lot. like, instead of waiting for him to come to you, you could've made him run away from you, closed the space, baited him a little more closely, or something along those lines.

you could've had some more aggressive pressure (like, do sorta what you were doing, except when you're closer to him. move around, get closer, and use well-spaced aerials mixed with d-tilts, jabs, forward B's. if he runs into them, great. if he runs away, react or adapt). that sounds wrong. you could have been more aggressive so he couldn't walk all over you, but not aggressive in the sense that you're committing to approaches. like i said, you probably could've benefited from more movement and placing your sword a little better (sorry, i can't explain that)

you seemed to have gotten caught a lot when you jumped in the air. you might have been able to either stop going in the air or began mixing it up when you were in the air (maybe you could've done something to counter how he was punishing you... like, if he would catch you early in your jump, you could throw something out. if he was waiting to get under your fair/nair, you could have daired. alternatively, you could have began using empty shorthops and wavelands to bait)

against patient space animals, it sorta seems like you have to absolutely master baiting (hurr durr) and be able to call when they're not going to act. like, it's not always a matter of making them approach, but you also have to pick the right anti-approach to stuff them :/ like, if they approach with a crouch cancel, you have to grab or dair (or WD back. the standard jabs and fairs don't really work *too* well, unfortunately). if they approach in the air, there's a bunch of other mixups that go into that.

i'm still working on solidifying my game vs patient falcos and foxes, myself, so i'll get back to you on that :)

edit: something that i'm trying to do more is ledgehop -> counter. marth's ledgehop aerials (and even waveland utilt) gets beat a LOTTTTT by fullhop aerials, even if you KNOW it's coming. axe told me to just ledgehop counter in this situation, since marth doesn't have an invincible ledge waveland like all the other good characters.

also, i don't think u-tilt is that great for punishing fullhop/high aerial approaches. it's something i used to do a lot too, but it's just too easy to avoid. you could possibly try to master the mindgames and timing, but i think it's safer to do fairs/uairs against them. like, if unknown did a fullhop dair, you'd u-tilt. i don't think that works very well. alternately, you could counter or dash out of the way, but dashdancing away would probably take more effort to follow up, since that introduces a few other mixups (because even if you avoid the dair, you still have to get the grab), plus he might be able to punish that since the timing on falco's FH dair is sorta awkward. you might be able to back away and fsmash/ftilt/aerial where he lands. i'm not sure. i'm pretty sure there's SOMETHING easy he could do to follow up on you moving out of his way, but it's hard for me to visualize the situations in my head right now.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
It's going to get repetitive but I'll just give my thoughts now that I've watched the videos a bunch.

The major issue is that you are not moving much, which means you need to constantly be swinging the sword to try to defend against his approaches. The problem is your attacks are not really putting pressure on him, so he can sit back and punish your lag as he pleases. I just think this is a way too passive style of playing against fox. Granted, you made the most of it. Your punish is great when you get hits, and because your spacing and intuition for when he was going to approach you was so good, you were able to compensate for being so immobile.

There's a few problems with this. First of all, you're basically giving him complete control of the match. Your attacks can't hit him so he can be as selective as he wants about when/how he approaches you, which means its usually going to be to his advantage. By playing like this you forfeit the element of surprise and are constantly playing defense. The other thing is since you are not dash dance very much at all (you seem to WD back in spots where I think you should DD), and are constantly jumping and fairs and stuff, you're naturally getting less grabs than you would otherwise because the nature of the punishes you're going for don't net you as many grabs, which means you don't get as much control as you could even when you are punishing and your punishes aren't as strong as they could be. I see moments where you are late fairing shield -> dash away grab. More of that! It's amazing and you clearly can do it, so use that stuff more. And by saying you should dash dance, I really don't necessarily mean dash dance back and forth repeatedly (though that can be good too), but really taking advantage specifically of dashing AWAY, either after aerials or in general after baiting an approach.

In order to be more aggressive I would mix in stuff like dash cancelled fsmash/dtilt at the very back of his DD range. If you notice that the fox likes to jump around you by going up on platforms as you try to approach, you can approach him with an empty hop, and then react with an up air if you see him attempting to drop down on you from plats.

Recovery: As mentioned your recovery actually could be much better. Recovering high above the ledge (prior to up B) in general is a pretty big no-no vs spacies imo. I like high recovery against characters with crappy DJ or ledge hop options that don't cover it very well (Peach, doc, others). Spacies, however, are just waiting to bair you. On top of it your side Bing like right above the edge a lot. Sometimes you're just flailing with fair as you come down. I think you're just hoping to catch him trying to attack you but you'd be much better off using space out over the edge to recover. Other things that are killing you is some wasting of your DJ. Save it until its actually time to recover, because its a major stalling tactic that will force the space animal to give you back the edge. You barely recovered low this entire set. Another thing is, if you're going to recover high on stage, don't up B EXTREMELY high and early. If you know for sure you will hit them with up B, then ok, but in general if you up B way way too high you're just giving the fox absolutely all day to punish. Try to minimize your lag in these situations. I also felt like you recovered high on stage in spots where you really didn't need to, so I would go back and take a look to make sure you know exactly whats going on with fox's ledge options so that you don't give him anything for free.

Overall though that's one of the better spacies players out there, so major props for beating his falco and playing him so tough overall.
 

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
Location
East Peoria, IL
LOL, i must have gotten my "defensive" playstyle because i started out in brawl...-_-

hahaha, thanks for the help guys. Maybe its a difference in matchups but i feel like i play solidly vs falcon. fox i've been needing critique sooooo badly. thanks :)

LOL @ Master Baiting....
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Also dart one thing I forgot to mention before was that you might want to take a look at what you're doing during your opponent's re-spawn. Wavelanding over platforms can be good against less mobile characters but against spacies I think it really sets you up to get hit plus its harder to re-establish momentum once they come out of invincibility. Ledge camping is ok but can get read if you do it too often. WD in and out of shield/roll on stage is also good but I feel like going up on platforms is really not what you want in these matchups.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
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Northern IL
The only thing dart could do better during respawn is take more risks. His answer is opposite but equal in some ways. He safely puts himself at a disadvantage (back to the edge) but never puts himself grabbing the edge unless he has to. He usually just positions himself as close to center as he can without being in any real danger. Its all based around where his opponent moves. If he took more risks sometimes he could probably throw the opponent way off Azen style, but thats kinda high-risk-high-reward sorta thing.
 

FD96

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
49
Location
USA
I am having trouble with doing a short hop double forward air, I jump with Y and now the only way I can do it is hitting Y then very quickly hitting forward A twice. It is very inconsistent and I don't like the fact that I have to move forward. I have tried with Z as attacking and C stick for attack but neither are working with Y for me. So what do you guys do? I have trouble short hopping with the control stick so if that is what you use I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me some tips on short hopping with the control stick, thanks!
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I use Y and Cstick. I started marth in like 2003 but couldnt get the double fair consistently without A until like 2007 when i started practicing a lot of fox tech skill. You may want to just spend a lot of time practicing being fast with any character as speed increases tend to transfer over.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
Hitlag gives you slightly more time to move your fingers.

Something I was wondering. Typical for more common match-ups, what is proper DI?
For Shiek, I believe you really want to DI away a lot of the time.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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Every move requires you to DI in a unique way for maximum effectiveness. Some moves make you DI-in in order to survive, while others make you DI-away in order to avoid getting hit again. It is also very damage dependent, most aerial kill moves can be followed up at early percents if the opponent does in-DI (think triple knee or knee->grab). Also, combo moves eventually become KO moves at later percents (think marth's fair or marth's utilt).

I like to use middle-ground DI, which is very situational but basically allows you to hold a single direction and put you in a place that would be both non-comboable and survivable. A lot of the middle-ground DI involves up DI or up and in. Doesn't really work against falcon tho (**** **** **** ***** ***** ******* hate that matchup all his moves are combo and kill moves)
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
I suppose I should be more specific... I'll getting together a list of scenarios that cause me troubles at lot. I suppose the largest are from grabs.

Shiek: Dthrow -> ftilt -> aerial.
Escape: DI away dthrow/ftilt, Fair follow up.

Fox: Uthrow -> Uair chain
Escape: DI left or right the entire time? Or Fair at low enough percents.

CF: Dthrow -> dthrow
Escape: Mix up DI away and towards
After that at higher percents, I am not sure. My options get knee'd quiet a lot.

Marth: Too many throw options...
I think the biggest is DI away to avoid getting tipped by Fsmash at lower/mid percents into an edgeguard.
 

AlcyoNite

Smash Champion
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
2,332
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**** Triangle, NC
Fox: try to learn the smash di stuff from kk's thread. at early percents if the fox goes for u air, then DI away and sure u can fair or i even like to uair to reverse the combo

CF: im usually pretty successful at away DI at low percents. at higher percents know the knee percents; i think from like 70-90 falcon has guaranteed u throw knee (someone correct me on the exact numbers), so ideally, even though its guaranteed, u want to make him work for it by DIing into him - that way he has to jump and hold back to correctly space and time the knee. worse players cant deal with this DI. after that u throw wont connect to knee and u should be able to jump out and just avoid a uair follow up. starting at around 120 though, falcon has d throw knee. again, i find it best to di the d throw full away until the knee comes at which point i switch to upward DI, even though at this point ur pretty much dead XD

marth: learn how to combo marth with marth so u know what the enemy's options are. the situations are endless though so just keep in mind that upward DI makes it harder for marth to do guaranteed combos on you and that away DI makes it harder to connect successive fairs
 

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
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East Peoria, IL
Lol, am i the only one that started using fox only after realizing how hard the sheik matchup is? now i don't even use him for the matchup. he's good for doubles though.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
M2K doesn't use Fox for Sheik. I don't see why anyone else should.

Y'all are *****es. I play ICs vs Peach, and that matchup is way sadder than Marth-Sheik. >_>
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
M2K does Sheik dittos because he's amazing at them, I don't see what your point is Joe...
 

Niko45

Smash Master
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Apr 16, 2008
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Westchester, NY
Nah I think it's pretty solidly worse than that. You're up against a character with the ability to consistently damage rack, send you off stage, and edgeguard you, and in return Marth can do none of those things very consistently. Marth just needs to make so many more correct decisions and his wrong decisions are much more costly. It's one of the reasons you barely even see the matchup played any more. At least some sheiks have a rep for being good vs fox or some fox's have reps for being bad against sheik but you don't really see much of that in marth v sheik.

Maybe its not as bad as peach v fox but I'd say its closer to that than fox v sheik.

But you should critique my sheik vids from the other thread I'm always trying to improve at the MU.
 

Teczer0

Research Assistant
Premium
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Convex Cone, Positive Orthant
I think both can do a pretty decent amount of damage to each other. You're right in saying Marth has a harder time since sheik's combos are harder to escape and to mess up lol.

But the correct decision imo in fighting a sheik is to throw/end combos that hit her upwards. And do whatever you can to keep her above you. Until you can give her enough percent to knock her off stage. And if I had to give anyone advice, thats what I would be telling them.

I honestly wouldn't mind playing the match up. In fact, I play the match up a lot vs Vanz well.. when I decide to be playing marth more at least. Also one reason why you rarely see marth vs sheik in general is because both characters aren't used that widely imo.

Also, sure I wouldn't mind critiquing your vids. Just wait till I'm done with finals lol xD
 
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