Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[Majora_younglink]

Well ****. I forgot to end this discussion yesterday.

I officially call the discussion of Gannondorf over and now say it is time to talk about Ness and Lucas. If someone can post an intelligent post detailing this matchup/contact some of the people that main them it'd be much appreciated.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think you're overrating Ganon's aerials (against Falcon). Trading hits with the Knee is a bad idea most of the time.

Only if it sweetspots, sweetheart. Otherwise you're just getting royally owned.

Our DSmash is safe against slow characters on shield unless it gets powershielded it pushes them too far away to punish it. Therefore a partially charged DSmash (so that it will come in after a dodge, will punish a roll, and won't be powershielded) is a great poking move for us unless the other player has a faster move at that range and happens to use it instead of playing defensively (which they usually won't because if we approach instead of poke they'll get beat).

Dsmash might be safe on shield, but all Ganondorf has to do is outrange and outspeed it, something that's not particularly difficult with dtilt and jab. Oh, and he can thunderstorm you out of it too.

UAir is safe on shield because of no landing lag and enough range that it's out of grab range (it also has shield knockback that can sometimes make someone think they're in shield-grab range and then they get pushed back as they're trying to grab, so we can punish the grab, although that's not reliable because powershielding doesn't get pushback).

That'll have to be tested, but I'll accept it for now.

I'm pretty sure autocancelled DAirs are safe on shield as well because Falcon's speed (out of a dash) puts him quite far behind the opponent.

Doing dairs to get behind Ganondorf is like asking to get uair'd. Or just ftilted as you land.

Falcon Dive (up-B) is safe on shield and outranges non-tether grabs. (Not sure what moves of Ganon's it outranges)

It's also asking to get daired or just plain fsmashed.

DTilt isn't too fast but it happens to poke under shields a good deal of the time.

But it will be out-prioritized, outranged, and outsped by Ganon's dtilt. So it's not the best idea.

We have enough options that shielding != win, no matter how good of out-of-shield options you have.

And of course if they just get dodged you get owned, because no matter if you can use one attack to approach safely, you're still getting limited, and limit=prediction, and prediction=ownage.

 

[Zeallyx]

on ness:
use falcon's chaingrab!

(just to start the conversation :D)

 

[Majora_younglink]

I'm wondering when/if this will get stickied?

Also done updating the front page. Man this is a lot of hard work to keep updated. o_o

 

[Stafy]

Ness is one of my mains, and I know several things with him.

One, his PK Thunder recovery: It's almost a free knee, spike, or you can simply get on top of him to cancel out PK Thunder. PKT2 is easy to dodge or shield, but I think there is lag so you can probably get a hit. Ness can get edge guarded easily, but his second jump could be a problem if not canceled. You can however hit him with a Uair to make him go far. And Falcon Dive isn't a bad idea either (if you're good at it, that is. He can escape it easily too).

I'm limited to CPUs atm, but Ness can get grab escaped and get knee'd. However, this *is* escapable.

Look out for Ness' spike, as usual. C. Falcon does have an infinite grab. Ness's small size sucks.

Again, I'm only limited to CPUs as of now, but I can't get into depth on his attacks. PK Fire is easily dodgeable. PK Flash is always dodgable. No point on PSI Magnet on a Falcon except for PK Air technique.. And I only know Ness, so I can't say much about Lucas.

 

[Zeallyx]

Vid of captain falcon's chaingrab on ness: http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=a9mM0DxBy28

 

[xoxokev]

Why did you guys clump Ness and Lucas together? They aren't the same character... really

Anyway... We had this match-up discussed on the Ness board a few days ago. Yes, its true, grab release to knee CAN be escaped. Personally, the only thing that I think Ness has over C. Falcon is his spammy fair and overall better aerial game. C. Falcon is a fast runner... but his smashes are fairly slow and sometimes punishable. C. Falcon DOES have a pretty reliable jab -> jab -> grab... but his recovery is somewhat limited, although his up B is very good for recovering a good amount of vertical distance. I would say C. Falcon's best moves on Ness would be his jab -> grab and his uair.

@Stafy: PKT recover is ALMOST a free knee/spike... that is, if you're willing to risk being hit by the PKT2... which can kill at ~60% or lower, also a free stock if you get staged spiked by it... you should know that, being a Ness user...

IMO, a good Ness vs. a good C. Falcon would yield an even 50-50 match-up, give or take compensating for the players' skill levels

EDIT: can Ness still be chain grabbed if Ness uses EIDI? someone please test...
EIDI = http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201575

 

[Snowstalker]

Why is Bowser 60:40, when most agreed that it was a slight disadvantage?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Why is Bowser 60:40, when most agreed that it was a slight disadvantage?

Because they're idiots? Seriously, CF loses to Boozer. Not bad, but he's definitely at a disadvantage.

 

[LinIsKorean]

I have a friend who secondaries Ness, and I'd say its slightly in Ness's favor. Ness's small size makes him hard to hit, and his spammable aerials can get quite annoying. He is pretty easy to gimp if you're quick about it, other wise you take a PKT2 to the face, which... sucks. Playing carefully is important, because Falcon has a good chance to get punished if he misses his smashes and such. Just speaking from experience, I think its around 55:45 in Ness' favor, but it can definitely go either way. (Note, grab release to knee is escapable, my friend figured it out but he's not completely consistent with it yet.)

 

[Uffe]

I have a friend who secondaries Ness, and I'd say its slightly in Ness's favor. Ness's small size makes him hard to hit, and his spammable aerials can get quite annoying. He is pretty easy to gimp if you're quick about it, other wise you take a PKT2 to the face, which... sucks. Playing carefully is important, because Falcon has a good chance to get punished if he misses his smashes and such. Just speaking from experience, I think its around 55:45 in Ness' favor, but it can definitely go either way. (Note, grab release to knee is escapable, my friend figured it out but he's not completely consistent with it yet.)

I agree fully with this. Also, at the Ness boards, which we were awaiting the presence of some Falcon mains, we agreed that it had come to 55:45 in Ness' favor as well. But either way, it's still a close game, so Falcon still has a lot of chances defeating Ness.

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

Has anyone considered a nipple spike when Ness of Lucas launch themselves at you with their PK thunder
submission? I tried it, works like a charm (ONLY if you time it percisely). Also, there is a lag after they launch so could a knee or Dair work? I haven't tried this though, but really the hitboxes fade away during the lagg animation of the PK thunder submission (whatever it's called).

 

[Wogrim]

Only if it sweetspots, sweetheart. Otherwise you're just getting royally owned.

Sweetspotting the knee isn't too hard for the people who've actually been maining Falcon for months.

Dsmash might be safe on shield, but all Ganondorf has to do is outrange and outspeed it, something that's not particularly difficult with dtilt and jab. Oh, and he can thunderstorm you out of it too.

Dtilt, sure, but I have trouble believing jab outranges our DSmash, or that his thunderstorming SH is enough to make it to us.

That'll have to be tested, but I'll accept it for now.

Doing dairs to get behind Ganondorf is like asking to get uair'd. Or just ftilted as you land.

There's no way you can determine what approach we're using and do a reactionary UAir in time. Ftilt as we land, maybe, but since we'll have no landing lag maybe not.

It's also asking to get daired or just plain fsmashed.

If you're talking about the same Falcon Dive as I am... lol no.

But it will be out-prioritized, outranged, and outsped by Ganon's dtilt. So it's not the best idea.

The thing is, there will always be times where you'll be in ending/landing lag when we start our move (because one of your moves has missed) and none of your attacks will be fast enough to beat ours. In these situations, you basically have to choose shield, spotdodge, or roll (you can choose to do a fast move and if we pick a slow one you could get lucky, but if we picked a fast one or decided to approach in a way that doesn't get hit by your move (such as in the air or with Raptor Boost, thereby dodging your attack) you're getting hit. Your shield game may be good, but we can avoid it (for the most part) with a bunch of different options.

And of course if they just get dodged you get owned, because no matter if you can use one attack to approach safely, you're still getting limited, and limit=prediction, and prediction=ownage.

If you have one move to poke safely, you're still getting limited, and limit=prediction, and prediction=ownage. /shrug

 

[Thirtyfour]

VS Ness Up close your safe to utilt like 70% of the time
VS Lucas Utilt out ranges his tilts fsmash so punish with utilt since it reaches overhead unlike dtilt and ftilt.
Wont get hit by his dsmash with correct spacing.
And Use a Bthrow off the stage vs Lucas its easier to punish him to HELL when he's facing backwards off stage.
Option to up B, Uair, bair, Utilt, or simply wait.

Vs both its safe to up B both of thier recoveries If timed right right when they're bringing out the pk thunder. It's safer than a knee gimp since you absorb a hit if you grab with the start of the dive just incase you for SOME REASON cant sprint to gimp one in time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Because they're idiots? Seriously, CF loses to Boozer. Not bad, but he's definitely at a disadvantage.

Dude, they've closed that discussion.

We'll have to do a match-up resolution thread at some point so we can get on dangr's thread, but in the meantime, we'll drop it, let then continue believing Captain Falcon beats Bowser and Ganondorf, eventually it'll have to be resolved.

Stuff

You too, you guys have got another match-up to discuss.




Since this is probably on topic anyway (it applies to match-ups in general), on the topic of pokes:



A poke is not intended to nessecarily cause damage. It's intended to be thrown out occassionally to provoke a reaction.

Ever heard the phrase, "a threat is greater then it's exacution"? Safe poke moves equate control forcing a reaction and depending on the situation, an advantage.

So for pokes, prediction is not a major issue, it's an advantage to not have to worry about prediction, but a single poke still ultimately serves the purpose.

 

[Uffe]

Has anyone considered a nipple spike when Ness of Lucas launch themselves at you with their PK thunder
submission? I tried it, works like a charm (ONLY if you time it percisely). Also, there is a lag after they launch so could a knee or Dair work? I haven't tried this though, but really the hitboxes fade away during the lagg animation of the PK thunder submission (whatever it's called).

I wanted to stop after reading that part, but I didn't. Risking your life isn't exactly the best thing to do. And though you could just go down and bump into Ness or Lucas' PK Thunder, Ness can actually loop around the character, which makes it a bit more difficult, but not impossible. So you could end up getting hurt in the process. I'd say Lucas can do this, but his PK Thunder is slower than Ness'. Also, Lucas I guess can Zap Jump to recover, so gimping him could be a bit tougher.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Why is Bowser 60:40, when most agreed that it was a slight disadvantage?

It was my mistake it was supposed to be the reverse. I'll go edit it right now. Next time pm me about this though. It's easier on me since I'll know right away.

Because they're idiots? Seriously, CF loses to Boozer. Not bad, but he's definitely at a disadvantage.

Don't flame. Also "they're" isn't right. Its more like a "he". Don't blame a whole board or group for one person. :/

But I agree with the disadvantage. Thus why I put it at 40/60 for C Falcon. Next time pm me your input though.

Dude, they've closed that discussion.

We'll have to do a match-up resolution thread at some point so we can get on dangr's thread, but in the meantime, we'll drop it, let then continue believing Captain Falcon beats Bowser and Ganondorf, eventually it'll have to be resolved.
.

It was supposed to be 45/55. I agree with Gannondorf having a slight advantage albeit not as high as some of you Ganny's might say. Once again though. Pm'ing comments is a nice thing.



I do put that pm me your input part for a reason. I am only human, I make mistakes. >.>

But I do apologize for the typo. T_T

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

I wanted to stop after reading that part, but I didn't. Risking your life isn't exactly the best thing to do. And though you could just go down and bump into Ness or Lucas' PK Thunder, Ness can actually loop around the character, which makes it a bit more difficult, but not impossible. So you could end up getting hurt in the process. I'd say Lucas can do this, but his PK Thunder is slower than Ness'. Also, Lucas I guess can Zap Jump to recover, so gimping him could be a bit tougher.

How about when there on the lagg position? (just before they can get back on their feet?), while their sliding to the ground, you could always time it with a Falcon Kick or a Dair (considering you have dodged with a jump and are right above Ness or Lucas).

 

[adumbrodeus]

It was supposed to be 45/55. I agree with Gannondorf having a slight advantage albeit not as high as some of you Ganny's might say. Once again though. Pm'ing comments is a nice thing.



I do put that pm me your input part for a reason. I am only human, I make mistakes. >.>

But I do apologize for the typo. T_T

Ah, missed the "pm me" part.

Ok, cool, I'll re-examine the match-up and send you something ASAP.



I'm a Ganondorf main?!

Check the little icon, I'm a Marth main, I'm just helpful on their boards.

 

[Majora_younglink]

I'm a Ganondorf main?!

Check the little icon, I'm a Marth main, I'm just helpful on their boards.

I barely notice that at times. XD

It's so small, and some people don't even use it. But noted.

 

[SaltyKracka]

It was my mistake it was supposed to be the reverse. I'll go edit it right now. Next time pm me about this though. It's easier on me since I'll know right away.



Don't flame. Also "they're" isn't right. Its more like a "he". Don't blame a whole board or group for one person. :/

But I agree with the disadvantage. Thus why I put it at 40/60 for C Falcon. Next time pm me your input though.



It was supposed to be 45/55. I agree with Gannondorf having a slight advantage albeit not as high as some of you Ganny's might say. Once again though. Pm'ing comments is a nice thing.


I do put that pm me your input part for a reason. I am only human, I make mistakes. >.>

But I do apologize for the typo. T_T

Sorry 'bout that. Missed all the PM stuff. And sorry for the flaming, it's kind of a habit, this being the internet and all.

 

[Wogrim]

Ness and Lucas are both a pain just because they are small.

Dash attack literally goes over Ness's PK fire because it is so low to the ground.

I'd put them both around 40-60.

Has anyone tried Falcon Diving them during their up-B? I've wanted to see if it works but havn't got around to it.

 

[__V]

Falcon Dive DESTROYS them.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Nipple spike thier up Bs?! That's good if you're sure you can recover. All I ever like to do is give them a little tap with Bair and thier dead.

 

[Zeallyx]

also avoid pk fire >.< from both ness and lucas
it's one of the things you should really look out for in this matchup

 

[Majora_younglink]

^ To be honest, I think Ness projectiles are worse than Lucas' on C Falcon since his PK fire can lead to death combos (Especially in the air) and his PK Thunder can be used from far away and he won't suffer from the time use (usually anyways) that Lucas does when using it.

I'm not to sure about these matchups but the grab releases and all that at least help C Falcon. Also, anybody know hows C Falcon's priority relative to Ness/Lucas? I'd assume less but it's always smart to ask.

 

[LinIsKorean]

^ To be honest, I think Ness projectiles are worse than Lucas' on C Falcon since his PK fire can lead to death combos (Especially in the air) and his PK Thunder can be used from far away and he won't suffer from the time use (usually anyways) that Lucas does when using it.

I'm not to sure about these matchups but the grab releases and all that at least help C Falcon. Also, anybody know hows C Falcon's priority relative to Ness/Lucas? I'd assume less but it's always smart to ask.

Umm... What?

I don't really understand that first part. First you said that you think Ness has worse projectiles than Lucas on Falcon, but then you say his PK Thunder won't suffer from the time use that Lucas does? o_O So who has a better projectile game then? <_<

 

[BEES]

In my experience Ness is worse than Lucas, but they're both very irritating. Small, with lots of disruptive attacks.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Umm... What?

I don't really understand that first part. First you said that you think Ness has worse projectiles than Lucas on Falcon, but then you say his PK Thunder won't suffer from the time use that Lucas does? o_O So who has a better projectile game then? <_<

I meant "worse" as in it is more effective. Like water does "worse" damage on fire than ice on fire. Worse damage for the person that it is being used on. I can see where the confusion might come from but generally it was meant to say that Ness' projectile game is better on C Falcon than Lucas' in my opinion.

 

[Wogrim]

Meh let's move on. I don't think anyone wants to make huge posts about Ness or Lucas.

 

[Face124]

Not to interrupt the discussion, but I want to recommend a new way to work this thread.
1. Only do one character at a time so we can have a proper more in-depth look at that character.
2. Do it in the order of the character rankings list, because that means we will have the matchups for the people we are more likely to fight first.

 

[illinialex24]

Not to interrupt the discussion, but I want to recommend a new way to work this thread.
1. Only do one character at a time so we can have a proper more in-depth look at that character.
2. Do it in the order of the character rankings list, because that means we will have the matchups for the people we are more likely to fight first.

Thats a good idea but I'd do it based on popularity. Sonic isn't good but is very popular. I'd go:
MK, Snake, Falco, Marth, King Dedede, Sonic, Ike and then do it by rankings.

And don't flame me if I forgot someone, its my 2K post so I slightly hurried it.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Good ideas to be honest since some of the recent discussions have been getting minimal discussion. I'm even hesitant to put a tentative ratio on this matchup since there was so little discussion. I don't know whether it was because of Thanksgiving or just because nobody had anything to say.

Would anyone be against not putting anything up for this matchup just yet? I just feel theres not nearly enough discussion to label any stable ratio. I'll try the matchup again at a later date and see if it gets more discussion than like 2~3 posts. Sound good?

I'll move the discussion tomorrow to probably Snake and Falco though which SHOULD result in more discussion.

 

[LinIsKorean]

Sounds like a plan, though I don't have much experience against good Snakes...

 

[Revven]

Sounds like a plan, though I don't have much experience against good Snakes...

I have a decent experience against a few good Snakes... but... I don't know how MUCH I can contribute.

 

[Zeallyx]

I have some good snake experience, but ít's just against one snake player (blaze, he's darn good)
and as snake can be played in alot of ways, I'm not sure how much I can contribute, but I'll tell everything I know

 

[Face124]

Thats a good idea but I'd do it based on popularity. Sonic isn't good but is very popular. I'd go:
MK, Snake, Falco, Marth, King Dedede, Sonic, Ike and then do it by rankings.

And don't flame me if I forgot someone, its my 2K post so I slightly hurried it.

Well, isn't the character rankings list sort of a list of popularity, or at least tournament wise.

I think (although I've not been here for it) if there hasn't been enough discussion, then we shouldn't bother to do the ratio.

 

[Noodlehead]

use your counterpicks

snake
snake owns at battefield. his mines,and c4s hit both sides. his range will destroy you ,if your on the platforms. jabs will make his foward b go right above you. also try to sweetspot your knee on his recovery that is all for snake.

falco
if you cp at bf, never EVER get grabbed at low percentages, it will cause you a whole stock. i'd say approach him using aerials, SHADing might work effectively for dodging lasers. if you approach on the ground, he/she will probably down B. he could just laser spam you too, if you approah on the ground. the easiest way to kill him is gimping, its fairly easy to gimp his upB, just do a ledge dropped knee. oh yeah and his hyphen smash is rediculous.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Edited the front page and such. It is now week 4. Snake and Falco are up for discussion.

Ness and Lucas ratio didn't get updated due to above reasons. Kinda wish I could have but it wouldn't have been right. :/

 

[Blaze924]

I have some good snake experience, but ít's just against one snake player (blaze, he's darn good)
and as snake can be played in alot of ways, I'm not sure how much I can contribute, but I'll tell everything I know

hey thanks , trust me you ***** me alot with falcon, you have to have some pointers

i dont have alot of experience with my falcon against snake but i do have alot of experience with my snake against a great falcon(ToKneeOrNotToKnee), you should obviously stay close, snakes grenade camping is VERY dangerous so don't stay away from him, as for the snakes tilts, just shield grab, believe me grabs and jabs are falcons best friends,and last but not least, the gimping, recovery is snakes weakness and gimping is Falcons specialty, must i say more , i don't know how to do the ratio thing and im not going to humiliate myself in trying but all i know is that snake has a great advantage.

hope that helps