Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[Majora_younglink]

The sad truth is falcon player's have a mind set of any character that isn't a pure struggle (such as MK, Toonlink, Marth) is an even advantage or even our advantage.

I disagree with that statement. I'll honestly say that just about every matchup outside of maybe Gannondorf is NOT even. I think even Jiggly has a slight advantage over C Falcon. Maybe Ivysaur might be even but that is just about all I can think of outside of Ivy that MIGHT be even.

Also a better struggle character would have been Olimar or even Squirtle.

 

[Zeallyx]

Potential doesn't make a matchup. Stop listing it as a valid reason why a matchup isn't in one characters favor. A character can have tons of potential but still have a bad/even matchup against a character that has less potential. If you would have said he has combos on C Falcon (CGs, grab release, etc) then it would be a different story. The few combos I can reliably tell he has on C Falc relies on Thundering which is easy to poke with NAir.

The thread is worth looking into though but just having some ATs doesn't make him auto better than another character. The name of the game is advantages. Just saying he has more ATs doesn't make him better.

EDIT: Started reading through the thread for C Falc's matchup on Gannondorf. Most of the people there had no idea what the hell they were talking about C Falc. They listed several things that just didn't even start to show what C Falcon players really are about, not to mention the only person really talking for C Falcon was Gheb who doesn't even play C Falc iirc(though his cases for the matchup weren't all that bad imo) and A2ZOMG ( I feel his analysis on the matchup was probably the most accurate of any of the matchups there) . The thread is here : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192969

you told me to go more in depth on ganon's true combo's and AT's..

 

[Majora_younglink]

you told me to go more in depth on ganon's true combo's and AT's..

Ones that work on C Falcon, ones that give him an explicit advantage, ones that aren't just a list. Just listing out some random ATs (or linking to one for that matter) a chary can do but not on him isn't really that good for the discussion itself.

 

[Zeallyx]

Ones that work on C Falcon, ones that give him an explicit advantage, ones that aren't just a list. Just listing out some random ATs (or linking to one for that matter) a chary can do but not on him isn't really that good for the discussion itself.

most of them work on falcon (thunderstorming, superjump mindgames, side be techchase, side b Dtilt combo etc.) so how is this not contributing to the discussion..

ganon has an advantage, fact wise
but we still need the opinion of a good ganon mainer who fought alot of matches against a good falcon (knows more about this matchup)

 

[fromundaman]

Maybe you guys should post in the Ganon forums to say you need some ganons' opinions (and likewise for Bowser for that matter), to get both sides.

Ganon can FC techchase, as was mentioned before, is an important part of Ganon's game, but it is not the only thing we have on you. CF can also be hit with a Dtilt out of FC and possibly a DA (not sure on that. Swoops would know though.).

Also, you guys seem to imply we'll throw out FCs at the drop of a hat and, even worse, approach with it. FC is mainly used for punishing. You guys get a failed knee, you get FCed. We predict a roll, you get Fsmashed, jabbed, tilted, stomped, or FCed. You miss a smash or it hits our shield: Punish, and FC comes out.

Our tech chasing game is not limited to FC though. In general, we aim to limit our opponent's options, and Ganon has several moves that allow this, like his Dthrow, Fthrow, Dtilt, and FC.

Ganon also has a bouncing combo on every character (some harder to perfom it on than others) involving a SH stomp to tipman, which then forces you to get up normally, allowing Ganon to hit you with just about anything but a warlock punch, so most often a Fsmash. Odds are though, you probably won't get hit by this at a percent where it is doable more than once, if even that.

Ganon's Roll was mentioned earlier. His roll, much like his spot dodge, is complete garbage, and no even half decent Ganon is going to be rolling much.

Ganon is not an offensive character. We will play mainly a defensive game, trying to lure you in, often with DJs, Usmashes (which have a LOT of IASA frames), or simply dashing away, using pivot canceled tilts, jabs or Fsmashes, pivot grabs, SH aerials, and maybe FC as you approach or to punish a whiffed/shielded attack.

Ganon is slow. None can deny that. However, if you pay attention, his attacks don't have as much start-up lag as you probably think. Most of the speed problem comes from our attrocious ending lag on a lot of attacks.

Ftilt, Dtilt, Jabs, FC: They all come out fast and shall be used quite a bit.
Ftilt has a deceptively high hitbox, and will hurt SH approaches. Dtilt has a long range but extends our hurtbox by quite a bit. Jabs have IASA frames and can be used as a "get out of my face" attack.

I'm not sure, but I *believe* our Uair outranges yours, even if it is slower.

'Flying Ganon' probably won't affect this matchup much.

To be fair though, I think our recovery is even more gimpable than yours, and our UpB is pretty bad. Oh and Jab grab will hurt us...

Anyway, I am hardly a very knowledgeable Ganon, so it's best to get someone who knows more to continue.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon vs Falcon is either even or slightly in Ganon's favor. I use both chars btw.

CF has N-air approach on Ganon which can be pretty hard to punish, and more distance on his recovery, meaning he can chase offstage further away for some edgeguards. Jab also is faster than all of Ganon's attacks, which can be annoying to deal with.

Ganon has a superior out of shield game, a way better combo game, and better range, priority, and KO moves in general.

Make of that what you will.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon has a slight disadvantage here. I play a Captain Falcon, everyday, just to put that in there.

Let me start by Cf's b-air. Not only is it faster, it's also less laggier then Ganon's b-air, not punishable by Ganon unless the Cf fails on retreating after, in one scenario, hitting our shield, in another scenario, missing us. Even with that, the power on it is about the same as ours. The Cf I fight found this out and makes a b-air approach freely every so often.

Cf's the second fastest character in the game, while we're the second slowest. Giving Captain Falcon tons of more approach options then Ganondorf. Cf's has more aerial speed, could fall faster (by a bit), and has good defense.


Both of them rely on punishing, Ganon has betters options to though.

Cf's Jab has awesome priority and speed, with possible combo's on us Ganons. Up-tilting while we're recovering from the edge really mess us up, sets us up for off stage edge guarding.

Your recovery has more length then ours and comes out faster, or goes faster whatever you want to call it. It also has a explode effect which could Ko us when we're hugging.

Tipman isn't useful against Cfs at all. For example, if we try to tip man you off stage and if we manage to do it this you'll obviously try to recover, and so will we. Now, Cf has a faster and better Up B then us, with the same movement as ours. So we'll most likely get caught in it knocked out by the blow effect..

Falcon Punch, is actually usable.

I'd say 60-40 in Captain Falcon's favour.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

But when we speak of ATs and combos it is not that Ganondorf can perform these on the good Captain, what matters is that the Ganondorf player can innitiate them. If the matchup should remain truly even we need to have ways out of the begginings of Ganon's ATs or during. Is there anything I don't know of on this situation that we should know about?

 

[SaltyKracka]

But when we speak of ATs and combos it is not that Ganondorf can perform these on the good Captain, what matters is that the Ganondorf player can innitiate them. If the matchup should remain truly even we need to have ways out of the begginings of Ganon's ATs or during. Is there anything I don't know of on this situation that we should know about?

Um....if you're trying to ask if CF can get out of Ganon's combos once he's started....no. Unless the Ganondorf messes up, and he will eventually mess up on FC techchases, there is no way out for Falcon. However, FC->Dtilt is inescapable and will usually do at least 16% fresh. I may be wrong about the numbers, but it is truly inescapable and sets CF up for aerial combos such as uair, nair, or fair.

The dthrow is very escapable, Thunderstorm is very dependent upon percent. OF course, it's only a little less useless in the middle range of percents. Otherwise you're either getting comboed or getting KO'd.

 

[Tenki]

He's questioning the ability/reliability/realistic chances of a Ganondorf player initiating or landing the first grab/hit for the 'combos'

 

[Swoops]

Ganon has a slight disadvantage here. I play a Captain Falcon, everyday, just to put that in there.

Let me start by Cf's b-air. Not only is it faster, it's also less laggier then Ganon's b-air, not punishable by Ganon unless the Cf fails on retreating after, in one scenario, hitting our shield, in another scenario, missing us. Even with that, the power on it is about the same as ours. The Cf I fight found this out and makes a b-air approach freely every so often.

Cf's the second fastest character in the game, while we're the second slowest. Giving Captain Falcon tons of more approach options then Ganondorf. Cf's has more aerial speed, could fall faster (by a bit), and has good defense.


Both of them rely on punishing, Ganon has betters options to though.

Cf's Jab has awesome priority and speed, with possible combo's on us Ganons. Up-tilting while we're recovering from the edge really mess us up, sets us up for off stage edge guarding.

Your recovery has more length then ours and comes out faster, or goes faster whatever you want to call it. It also has a explode effect which could Ko us when we're hugging.

Tipman isn't useful against Cfs at all. For example, if we try to tip man you off stage and if we manage to do it this you'll obviously try to recover, and so will we. Now, Cf has a faster and better Up B then us, with the same movement as ours. So we'll most likely get caught in it knocked out by the blow effect..

Falcon Punch, is actually usable.

I'd say 60-40 in Captain Falcon's favour.

DA has priority over nearly everything Falcon has...everything with the exception of Paunch lol. I am talking about the beginning of DA too so don't think that hitting a f-smash at the end of Ganon's DA = more priority.

We're not comparing each of the moves to the same move of the other character, we're talking about that move and how it works against the other character as a whole, not Falcon's b-air>Ganon's b-air. If Falcon retreats properly with b-air, DA still destroys it, as well as wizkick and most likely u-air.

Falcon is of course faster, and that is seriously one of his only advantages.

Hell, at least we HAVE guaranteed options. And on top of guaranteed options, we have vicious traps and strings that cause loads of damage.

Most of any of Falcon's strength lies in gimping. If you really want to talk about KOs, I can tell that all of his KO moves are situational, punishable, slow, or just kill at way too high of percents, not great news for a heavyweight like Ganondorf. If you think I'm wrong, then correct me, but I am seriously underwhelmed by Falcon's KO game. Gimping is probably the only thing that I think works in Falcon's favor, but I think that Ganondorf's is just as good. If you think that tipman is innefective, you best be working on your edgeguarding . Tipman murders Falcon, you just need proper spacing, exactly like Falcon's edgeguarding game.

Jab is a fantastic, fast back up and "make me safe" move. It leads very well to grab but I'm pretty sure that's it. Tell me more if you can get something else of of grab (which isn't even guaranteed to begin with.)

I've actually done testing, Falcon's recovery is only better on horizontal movement. Vertically, it's actually worse than Ganondorf's. Test it out if you don't believe me. Not to mention the more wonky nature of Falcon's recovery. And Falcon can get caught in the same exact effect as our UpB, plus we actually have an extra defense measure on ours.

He's questioning the ability/reliability/realistic chances of a Ganondorf player initiating or landing the first grab/hit for the 'combos'

Pretty reliable actually, if Falcon can't get the gimp game going, he'll have to rely on KOs. All of the attempts which we can punish. Stomp destroys any ground approach if Falcon actually tries it. I'm aware that a good falcon wont be spamming Kick and Boost all over the place, but he will be trying DA, which we can destroy.

Aerial approaches on Falcon's end...our u-air, f-tilt, b-air, DA, and wizkick destroy aerial approaches. You may promote a bait-and-punish game but when it comes down to it, ours is far more rewarding and useful. Besides, you'll figure out pretty quick that a good Ganon isn't as punishable as you might think, and you'll get destroyed by buffered tilts and smashes.

65:35 Ganondorf

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

DA has priority over nearly everything Falcon has...everything with the exception of Paunch lol. I am talking about the beginning of DA too so don't think that hitting a f-smash at the end of Ganon's DA = more priority.

We're not comparing each of the moves to the same move of the other character, we're talking about that move and how it works against the other character as a whole, not Falcon's b-air>Ganon's b-air. If Falcon retreats properly with b-air, DA still destroys it, as well as wizkick and most likely u-air.

Falcon is of course faster, and that is seriously one of his only advantages.

Hell, at least we HAVE guaranteed options. And on top of guaranteed options, we have vicious traps and strings that cause loads of damage.

Most of any of Falcon's strength lies in gimping. If you really want to talk about KOs, I can tell that all of his KO moves are situational, punishable, slow, or just kill at way too high of percents, not great news for a heavyweight like Ganondorf. If you think I'm wrong, then correct me, but I am seriously underwhelmed by Falcon's KO game. Gimping is probably the only thing that I think works in Falcon's favor, but I think that Ganondorf's is just as good. If you think that tipman is innefective, you best be working on your edgeguarding . Tipman murders Falcon, you just need proper spacing, exactly like Falcon's edgeguarding game.

Jab is a fantastic, fast back up and "make me safe" move. It leads very well to grab but I'm pretty sure that's it. Tell me more if you can get something else of of grab (which isn't even guaranteed to begin with.)

I've actually done testing, Falcon's recovery is only better on horizontal movement. Vertically, it's actually worse than Ganondorf's. Test it out if you don't believe me. Not to mention the more wonky nature of Falcon's recovery. And Falcon can get caught in the same exact effect as our UpB, plus we actually have an extra defense measure on ours.



Pretty reliable actually, if Falcon can't get the gimp game going, he'll have to rely on KOs. All of the attempts which we can punish. Stomp destroys any ground approach if Falcon actually tries it. I'm aware that a good falcon wont be spamming Kick and Boost all over the place, but he will be trying DA, which we can destroy.

Aerial approaches on Falcon's end...our u-air, f-tilt, b-air, DA, and wizkick destroy aerial approaches. You may promote a bait-and-punish game but when it comes down to it, ours is far more rewarding and useful. Besides, you'll figure out pretty quick that a good Ganon isn't as punishable as you might think, and you'll get destroyed by buffered tilts and smashes.

65:35 Ganondorf

Doubtful that half the things ganon CAN do will work so easily on CF. CF's utilt clashes with dash attack, and falcon will win the jab fight. FC relies on accurate prediction, and that can either mean massive profit or massive pain. Its NOT reliable... sheesh. Only option that is reliable is just taking the dtilt.

Just because you can use your Flame Choke for massive profit doesn't mean much either, considering you have to land it. I've learned to never attack into a ganon's shield, barring pressuring with the jab, rendering lots of things about ganon's shield punish game pretty moot. Falcon DOES have bad approaches, but Ganon has even worse options.

You're overrating Ganon's dash attack, ALOT. It doesn't matter if it can cut through alot of moves, what matters is that it has TOO MUCH ENDING LAG to be of any use on a quick jab or grab. CF has a high advantage should he be underneath Ganon, and since falcon usually likes to grab alot, ganon's usual shield game is less effective. Auto cancelled dairs from ganon are beat by utilts, and CF has KO moves in Dsmash, Fsmash, utilt, Up B, the knee, nipple spike, bair, hell, you can toss in bthrow.

To call CF's KO moves laggy is the pot calling the kettle black. :|

I stand by my 55:45 still

As for bowser... I need to play a good bowser :S
The only good boozer I played was tapion.. and he doesn't USE boozer, just mindgames lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Falcon Jabs, it's sorta an opportunity to F-smash him if he doesn't jab cancel.

Ganon has too many combos on Falcon though. D-air -> almost anything is reliable at low percents. D-air to U-air combos at mid percents. Flame Choke > D-tilt I'm pretty sure is a guaranteed follow up and does like 22% and can be used for KOing if saved.

None of Falcon's approaches are safe, except for a perfect N-air approach autocanceled into a Jab. In order for Falcon to do anything else safe on Ganon's shield, he has to retreat, or he gets beat out by Ganon's range and power advantage.

Falcon's B-air is unsafe on block btw.

 

[Swoops]

Doubtful that half the things ganon CAN do will work so easily on CF. CF's utilt clashes with dash attack, and falcon will win the jab fight. FC relies on accurate prediction, and that can either mean massive profit or massive pain. Its NOT reliable... sheesh. Only option that is reliable is just taking the dtilt.

Just because you can use your Flame Choke for massive profit doesn't mean much either, considering you have to land it. I've learned to never attack into a ganon's shield, barring pressuring with the jab, rendering lots of things about ganon's shield punish game pretty moot. Falcon DOES have bad approaches, but Ganon has even worse options.

You're overrating Ganon's dash attack, ALOT. It doesn't matter if it can cut through alot of moves, what matters is that it has TOO MUCH ENDING LAG to be of any use on a quick jab or grab. CF has a high advantage should he be underneath Ganon, and since falcon usually likes to grab alot, ganon's usual shield game is less effective. Auto cancelled dairs from ganon are beat by utilts, and CF has KO moves in Dsmash, Fsmash, utilt, Up B, the knee, nipple spike, bair, hell, you can toss in bthrow.

To call CF's KO moves laggy is the pot calling the kettle black. :|

I stand by my 55:45 still

As for bowser... I need to play a good bowser :S
The only good boozer I played was tapion.. and he doesn't USE boozer, just mindgames lol

I didn't say that Flame Choke was amazingly reliable, just that Ganondorf actually has extremely good options out of it. Chances are that you wont see flame choke as much as you think you will from a good Ganondorf player. If you're looking for it, he's not going to use it a lot. Plus our reliable option (d-tilt) is a lot more devastating than you might think. Causes 21% fresh, and pops up for more options, and at low percents it barely pops you up putting you at a bad position. 21%...that's about 1/4 to 1/5 the damage Ganon needs to kill someone. Accurate prediction? We don't constantly try to land f-smashes or anything like that. But we get free damage and set ups.

Win the jab fight? Usually if Ganon is in that close he's going to get back, especially against a character without proectiles. Also, our jab out ranges yours.

We know what we can and can't punish with Gerudo. We aren't going to try and throw out a flame choke after something shielded at close range. We know how punishable Gerudo is and we aren't going to throw it out randomly.

We don't approach, and I was saying that since neither of us have amazing approaches, we have to look at bait-and-punish game. While Falcon's is decent, is faster, and can lead to a bit of damage, Ganondorf's is a lot more rewarding.

U-tilt may clash with DA, but that's assuming u-tilt comes out fast enough, meaning that you'd have to predict DA coming in advance. DA only has extreme ending lag on shield, that's it. On spot dodge and complete miss it isn't horrible at all. I don't think I'm overrating DA at all. Fast, god priority, great range, and kills at ridiculous percents. Only big problems it has are its lag on shield and its stupid decay.

You ignored what I said about Falcon's KOs. I didn't say that he doesnt have any, I said there are too many problems with them. Hell, his smashes are just as slow and laggy as Ganondorf's, but they don't kill nearly as well. That's why I brought up the laggy issue. Of course Ganondorf's smashes and kill moves are laggy, but they do what they are supposed to far better than Falcon's could, I mean with the exception of d-smash. Our d-smash is horrible, but **** is falcon's slow.

The other KO moves you mentioned fall into the categories that I talked about. Knee has such an awkward sweetspot that it's ridiculous. I know that good Falcon's can land it consistently, but I'm not talking about the skill of the other player, I'm talking about the awkwardness of the hitbox. Ganon mains recognize how awkward the hitbox of our b-air is, which is why we know that it isn't nearly as good as it could be. Of course we can land it if we are skilled, but it doesn't change the fact that it's awkward. The knee is still fantastic though, and a good falcon can still land it, but you have to work a little harder with it.

With DI, Ganon's going to get up somewhere a little bit below the mid 100s% before you start killing him with b-air, nipple, or UpB. U-tilt is decent on stomp...but it's about the same speed. If you're trying to use it as a quick stopper at close range, you're probably going to trade hits. Trade hits=bad ending for falcon. If you're talking about using it to stop approach stomps...well, I'm just going to say that we never approach with stomp.

Ganon has better range, and better priority, while having a more rewarding bait-and-punish game, equally good edgeguard options, better damage racking, and better KO options. Stomp has no lag, u-air has no lag, DA, F-Smash kills so much earlier and overall has the same timing, albeit slightly faster. Aerials are all the exact same speed (except falcon's f-air is 2 frames faster -_-) but have more range and more power. F-tilt is about the same speed, but Ganon's KOs so much better and they even have about the same wind down o.O. Of course Falcon's f-tilt sucks so I don't think you'll be using it. Our d-tilt is faster (1 frame >.>) yet has a lot more range. Our smashes are faster with the exception of f-smash, which is loads more powerful and has less cool down anyways. Gerudo is faster than raptor boost...so I really think running speed is the only thing that makes their speed different when you're comparing it.

Ganondorf has a way too solid defense that makes it hard for Falcon to get around. I will admit that jab is nasty and makes it so falcon's offense is harder to punish, but Ganon isn't going to stay in that range. Aerial approaches from Falcon are stopped cold by so much of Ganon's moveset as well.

/somuchdamntext

 

[Lareit]

I didn't say that Flame Choke was amazingly reliable, just that Ganondorf actually has extremely good options out of it. Chances are that you wont see flame choke as much as you think you will from a good Ganondorf player. If you're looking for it, he's not going to use it a lot. Plus our reliable option (d-tilt) is a lot more devastating than you might think. Causes 21% fresh, and pops up for more options, and at low percents it barely pops you up putting you at a bad position. 21%...that's about 1/4 to 1/5 the damage Ganon needs to kill someone. Accurate prediction? We don't constantly try to land f-smashes or anything like that. But we get free damage and set ups.

Win the jab fight? Usually if Ganon is in that close he's going to get back, especially against a character without proectiles. Also, our jab out ranges yours.

We know what we can and can't punish with Gerudo. We aren't going to try and throw out a flame choke after something shielded at close range. We know how punishable Gerudo is and we aren't going to throw it out randomly.

We don't approach, and I was saying that since neither of us have amazing approaches, we have to look at bait-and-punish game. While Falcon's is decent, is faster, and can lead to a bit of damage, Ganondorf's is a lot more rewarding.

U-tilt may clash with DA, but that's assuming u-tilt comes out fast enough, meaning that you'd have to predict DA coming in advance. DA only has extreme ending lag on shield, that's it. On spot dodge and complete miss it isn't horrible at all. I don't think I'm overrating DA at all. Fast, god priority, great range, and kills at ridiculous percents. Only big problems it has are its lag on shield and its stupid decay.

You ignored what I said about Falcon's KOs. I didn't say that he doesnt have any, I said there are too many problems with them. Hell, his smashes are just as slow and laggy as Ganondorf's, but they don't kill nearly as well. That's why I brought up the laggy issue. Of course Ganondorf's smashes and kill moves are laggy, but they do what they are supposed to far better than Falcon's could, I mean with the exception of d-smash. Our d-smash is horrible, but **** is falcon's slow.

The other KO moves you mentioned fall into the categories that I talked about. Knee has such an awkward sweetspot that it's ridiculous. I know that good Falcon's can land it consistently, but I'm not talking about the skill of the other player, I'm talking about the awkwardness of the hitbox. Ganon mains recognize how awkward the hitbox of our b-air is, which is why we know that it isn't nearly as good as it could be. Of course we can land it if we are skilled, but it doesn't change the fact that it's awkward. The knee is still fantastic though, and a good falcon can still land it, but you have to work a little harder with it.

With DI, Ganon's going to get up somewhere a little bit below the mid 100s% before you start killing him with b-air, nipple, or UpB. U-tilt is decent on stomp...but it's about the same speed. If you're trying to use it as a quick stopper at close range, you're probably going to trade hits. Trade hits=bad ending for falcon. If you're talking about using it to stop approach stomps...well, I'm just going to say that we never approach with stomp.

Ganon has better range, and better priority, while having a more rewarding bait-and-punish game, equally good edgeguard options, better damage racking, and better KO options. Stomp has no lag, u-air has no lag, DA, F-Smash kills so much earlier and overall has the same timing, albeit slightly faster. Aerials are all the exact same speed (except falcon's f-air is 2 frames faster -_-) but have more range and more power. F-tilt is about the same speed, but Ganon's KOs so much better and they even have about the same wind down o.O. Of course Falcon's f-tilt sucks so I don't think you'll be using it. Our d-tilt is faster (1 frame >.>) yet has a lot more range. Our smashes are faster with the exception of f-smash, which is loads more powerful and has less cool down anyways. Gerudo is faster than raptor boost...so I really think running speed is the only thing that makes their speed different when you're comparing it.

Ganondorf has a way too solid defense that makes it hard for Falcon to get around. I will admit that jab is nasty and makes it so falcon's offense is harder to punish, but Ganon isn't going to stay in that range. Aerial approaches from Falcon are stopped cold by so much of Ganon's moveset as well.

/somuchdamntext

Completely no discussion, just a question.

Is Dtilt out of murderchoke an instant hit? I'm always rolling immediatly out of it and all 3 people I know who have invested time into ganon who try to dtilt me out of it never land it.

Do they just fail?

 

[Swoops]

Completely no discussion, just a question.

Is Dtilt out of murderchoke an instant hit? I'm always rolling immediatly out of it and all 3 people I know who have invested time into ganon who try to dtilt me out of it never land it.

Do they just fail?

Lol probably >_>. There are two different versions of d-tilt, one that instantly does the move, and the other that has a slight crouching animation before it. The instant d-tilt is a few frames less and is guaranteed out of choke, while if you buffer it wrong, you get the crouching animation and they can roll out of it.

 

[Lareit]

Lol probably >_>. There are two different versions of d-tilt, one that instantly does the move, and the other that has a slight crouching animation before it. The instant d-tilt is a few frames less and is guaranteed out of choke, while if you buffer it wrong, you get the crouching animation and they can roll out of it.

One of them is pretty tech savy, i'll have to inquire. I appreciate the knowledge.

 

[hyperstation]

The only Falcon I've ever had a tough time against was a freaking brute. The reason he was so good though was just because he out-spaced me PERFECTLY. The fact that Falcon is way faster and has more lateral aerial movement isn't necessarily a huge advantage inherently. What it allows you, however, is to tune your spacing more quickly and accurately than Ganon. Ganon's and the Captain's success in competitive play relies on out-spacing your opponent and making good on opportunities to attack when they present themselves. What I found against this Falcon was that since he was literally perfectly out-spacing me consistently, he was able to predict with which move I would try to engage him with based on the spacing he allowed me. Rule the spacing game, control the pacing, win the game. This mantra fits likewise for Ganon.

Herein lies a problem I almost always face when interjecting into match-up discussions, however. This guy I faced was, by all accounts, a freak. He was miles ahead of any other Falcon I've ever played, and the rest aren't all scrubs. This isn't to say that some of your CF mains couldn't give my Ganon a good run for his money but rather that I'm always confused as to how to assess an "anomaly" like this in trying to form an objective opinion about a match-up. For reasons listed above, I'd say Ganon has the advantage in this match-up, but only by a slim margin. If the CF player puts a premium on perfectly spacing, that advantage changes drastically in Falcon's favor. I might call it 50:50 or 60:40 either way, really, depending on how we want to account for this high level of play which isn't exactly the status quo.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Tipman may not be as useless as I imagined, but the theory I mentioned has happened to me several times before. I was doing it perfectly, so don't start criticizing.

I've actually done testing, Falcon's recovery is only better on horizontal movement. Vertically, it's actually worse than Ganondorf's. Test it out if you don't believe me. Not to mention the more wonky nature of Falcon's recovery. And Falcon can get caught in the same exact effect as our UpB, plus we actually have an extra defense measure on ours.

It's also "a lot" faster.

 

[Swoops]

Tipman may not be as useless as I imagined, but the theory I mentioned has happened to me several times before. I was doing it perfectly, so don't start criticizing.



It's also "a lot" faster.

4 frames, yea

 

[The Real Inferno]

If I'm not mistaken. Out of forward B, Ganon has the guarenteed buffered Dtilt everytime, but at 0% I think this might lead him to a possible Forward Tilt or Neutral A due to how low Falco rises. Ouch. On the subject of recovery, while Flcon gets less Vertical Height, he also falls slower, usually meaning he's not recovering as low as Ganon. Also, because of the flip animation, even when caugh tunder a ledge like FD, it's easy for Falcon to "wrap" himself back and actually land on the platform itself often. Ganondorf usually has to pull back and snatch the edge when this occurs which often gets him edge hogged. That's not a big deal between the two but something worth thinking about I suppose.

I see this matchup as the manliest thing possible in the game and it's really a battle of speed vs Power. CF has to use proper spacing and be prepared to avoid getting Murder Choked. His best options lie in air pressuring Ganon off the stage for gimps. Ganondorf has the luxury of being able to sit back and lure Falcon into traps where he can crush him with devesatting Kill power. It doesn't seem to signifigantly roll one way or the other, as both have tool to help them acclomplish their tasks. I would personally put this at a 55:45 for Ganon if asked though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

4 frames, yea

I'm talking about how low it's duration is compared to Ganon's.

If I'm not mistaken. Out of forward B, Ganon has the guarenteed buffered Dtilt everytime, but at 0% I think this might lead him to a possible Forward Tilt or Neutral A due to how low Falco rises. Ouch. On the subject of recovery, while Flcon gets less Vertical Height, he also falls slower, usually meaning he's not recovering as low as Ganon. Also, because of the flip animation, even when caugh tunder a ledge like FD, it's easy for Falcon to "wrap" himself back and actually land on the platform itself often. Ganondorf usually has to pull back and snatch the edge when this occurs which often gets him edge hogged. That's not a big deal between the two but something worth thinking about I suppose.

We only have d-tilt out of our forward B, on Captain Falcon.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I'm talking about how low it's duration is compared to what Ganon is.



We only have d-tilt out of our forward B, on Captain Falcon.

I meant following the Dtilt with one of those other moves. I haven't done any research on the situation at 0 but I was hypothesizing he may be able to land one of those moves after the Dtilt.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the point.

Ganondorf can safely poke with dtilt on block.

Captain Falcon has no safe options from that range.

He has no way to force a more advantagious spacing for himself, whereas Ganondorf can just maintain his spacing.


So, Captain Falcon is forced to approach from that range, which isn't nessisarily a disadvantage, what makes it a disadvantage is the fact that all of his approaches are punishable on block. Further compounding that is the fact that Ganondorf is very good at punishing.

That's definate disadvantage right there. Compounding that is Falcon's lack of priority, and simple lack of options that are pragmatically different (require different responses).


I explained this all here with a good amount of depth.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Smart and intelligent discussions? Le gasp.

Well from what I've gathered it seems I HAVE been underestimating Gannondorf in this matchup. It seems that Gannondorf is even or at a slight advantage. I don't quite agree with the soft counter some people are putting him up for though, I just don't think he has it THAT easy in this matchup.

But I'll say this. The discussion is getting extended a day so further discussion on the matchup can be discussed since there are knowledgeable C Falcon mainers and Gannondorf mainers now and there is still a bit of discussion on the thought of the matchup. I don't want my personal feelings to make the matchup any worse or better than it should be.

Too be honest, I'm still not sure about Boozer. Not much has been said about him but I'd say he has something like a 60-40 matchup.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yeah, about Boozer.

If he shields any of your approaches, you're going to get punished with fortress. No doubt. Even jab won't save you from Fortress.

 

[Zeallyx]

DA has priority over nearly everything Falcon has...everything with the exception of Paunch lol. I am talking about the beginning of DA too so don't think that hitting a f-smash at the end of Ganon's DA = more priority.

We're not comparing each of the moves to the same move of the other character, we're talking about that move and how it works against the other character as a whole, not Falcon's b-air>Ganon's b-air. If Falcon retreats properly with b-air, DA still destroys it, as well as wizkick and most likely u-air.

Falcon is of course faster, and that is seriously one of his only advantages.

Hell, at least we HAVE guaranteed options. And on top of guaranteed options, we have vicious traps and strings that cause loads of damage.

Most of any of Falcon's strength lies in gimping. If you really want to talk about KOs, I can tell that all of his KO moves are situational, punishable, slow, or just kill at way too high of percents, not great news for a heavyweight like Ganondorf. If you think I'm wrong, then correct me, but I am seriously underwhelmed by Falcon's KO game. Gimping is probably the only thing that I think works in Falcon's favor, but I think that Ganondorf's is just as good. If you think that tipman is innefective, you best be working on your edgeguarding . Tipman murders Falcon, you just need proper spacing, exactly like Falcon's edgeguarding game.

Jab is a fantastic, fast back up and "make me safe" move. It leads very well to grab but I'm pretty sure that's it. Tell me more if you can get something else of of grab (which isn't even guaranteed to begin with.)

I've actually done testing, Falcon's recovery is only better on horizontal movement. Vertically, it's actually worse than Ganondorf's. Test it out if you don't believe me. Not to mention the more wonky nature of Falcon's recovery. And Falcon can get caught in the same exact effect as our UpB, plus we actually have an extra defense measure on ours.



Pretty reliable actually, if Falcon can't get the gimp game going, he'll have to rely on KOs. All of the attempts which we can punish. Stomp destroys any ground approach if Falcon actually tries it. I'm aware that a good falcon wont be spamming Kick and Boost all over the place, but he will be trying DA, which we can destroy.

Aerial approaches on Falcon's end...our u-air, f-tilt, b-air, DA, and wizkick destroy aerial approaches. You may promote a bait-and-punish game but when it comes down to it, ours is far more rewarding and useful. Besides, you'll figure out pretty quick that a good Ganon isn't as punishable as you might think, and you'll get destroyed by buffered tilts and smashes.

65:35 Ganondorf

I agree with this
65:35 in gonondorf's favor seems acurate to me

 

[Wogrim]

The extent of my experience with Ganons is rather limited (1 and 2) and obviously doesn't consist of Ganon mains, but I think you guys are underestimating the range/power of some of Falcon's moves. I also don't think anyone has mentioned that autocancelled knee sweetspots on Ganon, which is some pretty strong punishment. Falcon's attacks are bad on shield, but as soon as Falcon throws in grabs and Falcon Dive (up-B, which has good teleporting range) Ganon can't shield everything, which opens up a lot more opportunities for Falcon's other moves. And Ganon's recovery sucks pretty bad. Some people have said it's better vertically than Falcon's, but is it really better than this?

 

[SaltyKracka]

The extent of my experience with Ganons is rather limited (1 and 2) and obviously doesn't consist of Ganon mains, but I think you guys are underestimating the range/power of some of Falcon's moves. I also don't think anyone has mentioned that autocancelled knee sweetspots on Ganon, which is some pretty strong punishment. Falcon's attacks are bad on shield, but as soon as Falcon throws in grabs and Falcon Dive (up-B, which has good teleporting range) Ganon can't shield everything, which opens up a lot more opportunities for Falcon's other moves. And Ganon's recovery sucks pretty bad. Some people have said it's better vertically than Falcon's, but is it really better than this?

1. Those Ganons did just about everything wrong. Seriously.

2. You keep going on and on about the knee and how it's so great on Ganondorf, but you keep forgetting that it's not only easily interrupible, it's also really easy to see coming. Seriously, any Ganondorf who sees a Falcon approaching like you did in those matches should either ftilt or should already have shielded by the time they saw that. STOP ACTING LIKE IT'S GOOD.

3. Yes, Falcon's recovery is better than Ganondorf's. There's no debate about it.

 

[Wogrim]

1. Those Ganons did just about everything wrong. Seriously.

2. You keep going on and on about the knee and how it's so great on Ganondorf, but you keep forgetting that it's not only easily interrupible, it's also really easy to see coming. Seriously, any Ganondorf who sees a Falcon approaching like you did in those matches should either ftilt or should already have shielded by the time they saw that. STOP ACTING LIKE IT'S GOOD.

3. Yes, Falcon's recovery is better than Ganondorf's. There's no debate about it.

I didn't suggest in any way that those Ganons were good, and nowhere did I say that I was playing well (some ******** knee approaches is what stuck out when watching them). If you were to watch all my videos you'd see it was an amount of knee attempts very uncharacteristic of my playstyle.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I didn't suggest in any way that those Ganons were good, and nowhere did I say that I was playing well (some ******** knee approaches is what stuck out when watching them). If you were to watch all my videos you'd see it was an amount of knee attempts very uncharacteristic of my playstyle.

Sorry, I just watched the two. I was just pointing out the fact that you keep harping on the knee like it's the end-all be-all of CF's strategy. I swear, it's like you think "OMG we canz nee Gordondorf, we must be t3h w1nz0rz!!!1!11". I know I exaggerate, but it's ridiculous. The Zelda boards, who have very similar aerials (they're actually better) don't even harp on them that much.

 

[Wogrim]

Sorry, I just watched the two. I was just pointing out the fact that you keep harping on the knee like it's the end-all be-all of CF's strategy. I swear, it's like you think "OMG we canz nee Gordondorf, we must be t3h w1nz0rz!!!1!11". I know I exaggerate, but it's ridiculous. The Zelda boards, who have very similar aerials (they're actually better) don't even harp on them that much.

The only post in this thread (to my knowledge I have 4 including this one) in which I promote the knee is a couple posts up, in mentioning that an autocancelled knee is very strong punishment. I didn't say we can/should approach with it and I still don't say that. It just happens to be stronger than any of our uncharged smashes and is relatively easy to land on Ganondorf because the autocancelled version will sweetspot on him (also because his air game isn't too amazing, although I didn't mention that). You're freaking out over one post.

 

[__V]

It'd be scary if we actually proved CF has an advantage over anyone.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The only post in this thread (to my knowledge I have 4 including this one) in which I promote the knee is a couple posts up, in mentioning that an autocancelled knee is very strong punishment. I didn't say we can/should approach with it and I still don't say that. It just happens to be stronger than any of our uncharged smashes and is relatively easy to land on Ganondorf because the autocancelled version will sweetspot on him (also because his air game isn't too amazing, although I didn't mention that). You're freaking out over one post.

I don't mean you alone, and I know I exaggerate too much, but I still don't see it as any good versus Ganondorf. Sure, you can land it a little easier on him than on other people, but he can easily uair, ftilt, or even jab you out of it, not to mention shielding and spotdodging. I'm sorry, but it's only good if you can get there in time to punish lag, and that won't be very often versus a good Ganondorf.

 

[Roager]

I'm sorry, but it's only good if you can get there in time to punish lag, and that won't be very often versus a good Ganondorf.

Except that Ganondorf has a lot of lag to punish. This matchup is very close to even. Here's how I see it:

Each character has advantages/disadvantages, be it priority, recovery, weight, speed, or whatever. These mostly even out. Ganon, if he minimizes his lag, and sneaks in a few good hits on Falcon, can win easily. Likewise, a Falcon who can predict/bait and punish Ganon can win easily. This match is decided most prominently by mindgames and player skill. If that was all there was to it, it'd be flat even, 50/50.

BUT (you knew it was coming) I think that Falcon's flexibility/speed/maneuverability are enough of an advantage to push the match over to a slight Falcon advantage. I would call it about 60-40 or 55-45. Its close, but I would chalk it up to a small Falcon advantage. Then again, that's just my opinion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Except that Ganondorf has a lot of lag to punish. This matchup is very close to even. Here's how I see it:

Each character has advantages/disadvantages, be it priority, recovery, weight, speed, or whatever. These mostly even out. Ganon, if he minimizes his lag, and sneaks in a few good hits on Falcon, can win easily. Likewise, a Falcon who can predict/bait and punish Ganon can win easily. This match is decided most prominently by mindgames and player skill. If that was all there was to it, it'd be flat even, 50/50.

BUT (you knew it was coming) I think that Falcon's flexibility/speed/maneuverability are enough of an advantage to push the match over to a slight Falcon advantage. I would call it about 60-40 or 55-45. Its close, but I would chalk it up to a small Falcon advantage. Then again, that's just my opinion.

You see it totally wrong.


It's not about general character attributes per say, it's about how a high-leveled match develops.


Ganon has a safe on block poking move (dtilt), from that range Captain Falcon is forced to approach. Captain Falcon has no safe on block approaches, except grab, which is far too predictable, especially with CF's grab range.

That's advantage right there, any approach CF can make can be punished by Ganondorf. The fact that Ganondorf punishes so well just makes this even more effective.

Here's what I wrote on the Ganondorf boards about this (with some spelling corrections):

Ok, I generally don't do analysis, on these thread, but here goes. 65-35 Ganondorf.


There are no projectiles in this match-up, so nobody is forced to approach, therefore both approaches must be dealt with.


Falcon first, he really doesn't have a safe poking move, raptor boost can be sheild-grabbed, falcon kick has massive lag, dash attack and dash canceled up-smash have too much cooldown, ftilt and dtilt are way too short ranged so Ganondorf can just return the favor on block, knee is too short ranged even auto-canceling doesn't stop the shieldgrab, dair is too predictable and just asks for u-smash or uair, and bair is too short ranged. They also lack priority, so if predicted, Ganon can easily beat them.

Of course, since they're all punishable, I'm sure the Ganon mains know the litany of punishment options Ganon has. Auto-canceled dair combo at low percents, dtilt, ftilt, overb, shieldgrab, up-smash. If they're forced into the air, he can also follow up extremely well, because he aerials are quite effective in general.


Then we have Ganon's approach game. Against Falcon, I'm almost positive Ganon's dtilt has enough range and causes enough shieldstun that it's safe on block in this match-up. Over-b is obviously safe on block as well, but it's really not spamable because of the speed and the fact that it's not safe on spotdodge, but throwing it in occasionally is good because it automatically combo which can kill over certain percents.

So, against Captain Falcon, Ganondorf can poke with dtilt just like Marth would poke with Fair, dtilt, or ftilt against most characters. In max dtilt range of course, but still, this is an ideal tool for camping. Ultimately, it forces Falcon to commit to an approach within that range.

Unfortunately, Falcon has better speed, which gives him a spacing advantage, however, it also makes his spacing more imprecise. This can be capitalize when attempting to space for a dtilt camp.


Momentium game, Ganon is definitely better then Falcon at taking advantage of it, between his combos, a much more powerful uair, and general better aerials and groundwork, and superior all-around priority, Ganon's is more effective, if it hits. Because of his inferior airspeed and groundspeed, it's a great deal more difficult to keep in range to continuously follow up for Ganondorf, making it significantly easier to return momentium to neutral for Captain Falcon. Inversely it's relatively easier to maintain momentum for Falcon for the same reason. Overall, a slight advantage to Falcon on this department.


Overall, Falcon just doesn't have anything safe to approach with against Ganondorf, and since everything except running grab is dealt with in the same way, shield (and if they get close, appropriately timed dtilt is good), so even his mindgames options are very limted. Ganondorf on the other hand, has an actual safe poking move, so he wins in both the offensive and defensive departments. His only real weakness here is maintaining momentium. 65-35, Ganon's advantage.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I didn't say that Flame Choke was amazingly reliable, just that Ganondorf actually has extremely good options out of it. Chances are that you wont see flame choke as much as you think you will from a good Ganondorf player. If you're looking for it, he's not going to use it a lot. Plus our reliable option (d-tilt) is a lot more devastating than you might think. Causes 21% fresh, and pops up for more options, and at low percents it barely pops you up putting you at a bad position. 21%...that's about 1/4 to 1/5 the damage Ganon needs to kill someone. Accurate prediction? We don't constantly try to land f-smashes or anything like that. But we get free damage and set ups.

Win the jab fight? Usually if Ganon is in that close he's going to get back, especially against a character without proectiles. Also, our jab out ranges yours.

We know what we can and can't punish with Gerudo. We aren't going to try and throw out a flame choke after something shielded at close range. We know how punishable Gerudo is and we aren't going to throw it out randomly.

We don't approach, and I was saying that since neither of us have amazing approaches, we have to look at bait-and-punish game. While Falcon's is decent, is faster, and can lead to a bit of damage, Ganondorf's is a lot more rewarding.

U-tilt may clash with DA, but that's assuming u-tilt comes out fast enough, meaning that you'd have to predict DA coming in advance. DA only has extreme ending lag on shield, that's it. On spot dodge and complete miss it isn't horrible at all. I don't think I'm overrating DA at all. Fast, god priority, great range, and kills at ridiculous percents. Only big problems it has are its lag on shield and its stupid decay.

You ignored what I said about Falcon's KOs. I didn't say that he doesnt have any, I said there are too many problems with them. Hell, his smashes are just as slow and laggy as Ganondorf's, but they don't kill nearly as well. That's why I brought up the laggy issue. Of course Ganondorf's smashes and kill moves are laggy, but they do what they are supposed to far better than Falcon's could, I mean with the exception of d-smash. Our d-smash is horrible, but **** is falcon's slow.

The other KO moves you mentioned fall into the categories that I talked about. Knee has such an awkward sweetspot that it's ridiculous. I know that good Falcon's can land it consistently, but I'm not talking about the skill of the other player, I'm talking about the awkwardness of the hitbox. Ganon mains recognize how awkward the hitbox of our b-air is, which is why we know that it isn't nearly as good as it could be. Of course we can land it if we are skilled, but it doesn't change the fact that it's awkward. The knee is still fantastic though, and a good falcon can still land it, but you have to work a little harder with it.

With DI, Ganon's going to get up somewhere a little bit below the mid 100s% before you start killing him with b-air, nipple, or UpB. U-tilt is decent on stomp...but it's about the same speed. If you're trying to use it as a quick stopper at close range, you're probably going to trade hits. Trade hits=bad ending for falcon. If you're talking about using it to stop approach stomps...well, I'm just going to say that we never approach with stomp.

Ganon has better range, and better priority, while having a more rewarding bait-and-punish game, equally good edgeguard options, better damage racking, and better KO options. Stomp has no lag, u-air has no lag, DA, F-Smash kills so much earlier and overall has the same timing, albeit slightly faster. Aerials are all the exact same speed (except falcon's f-air is 2 frames faster -_-) but have more range and more power. F-tilt is about the same speed, but Ganon's KOs so much better and they even have about the same wind down o.O. Of course Falcon's f-tilt sucks so I don't think you'll be using it. Our d-tilt is faster (1 frame >.>) yet has a lot more range. Our smashes are faster with the exception of f-smash, which is loads more powerful and has less cool down anyways. Gerudo is faster than raptor boost...so I really think running speed is the only thing that makes their speed different when you're comparing it.

Ganondorf has a way too solid defense that makes it hard for Falcon to get around. I will admit that jab is nasty and makes it so falcon's offense is harder to punish, but Ganon isn't going to stay in that range. Aerial approaches from Falcon are stopped cold by so much of Ganon's moveset as well.

/somuchdamntext

Ganon's defense is solid, but Falcon can bait the shield with a fake approach and massively use grabs. Ehh... I need to fight a pro ganon so I can get the full scoop, because the ganon I do play *who is great with shiek* might not be as good a ganon as I had previously thought.

Dtilt is a good poke move, but... jumping > dtilt. Did I mention we can approach with uair? We can jump over ganon and hit with the back hitbox of uair, or even hop towards ganon and pop a uair before touching the ground. I do believe the shieldstun is high enough to allow for a quick sidestep or jab, and cf's jab beats ganon's to the punch.

As for the range issue...
Ehh, range, WE KNOW. STOP RUBBING IT IN ITS THE SAME WITH EVERYONE :'(

lol

Ehh, I'll say Its neutral then, 50:50

I think a lot of you guys are missing the point.

Ganondorf can safely poke with dtilt on block.

Captain Falcon has no safe options from that range.

He has no way to force a more advantagious spacing for himself, whereas Ganondorf can just maintain his spacing.


So, Captain Falcon is forced to approach from that range, which isn't nessisarily a disadvantage, what makes it a disadvantage is the fact that all of his approaches are punishable on block. Further compounding that is the fact that Ganondorf is very good at punishing.

That's definate disadvantage right there. Compounding that is Falcon's lack of priority, and simple lack of options that are pragmatically different (require different responses).


I explained this all here with a good amount of depth.

Predicting a dtilt could lead to a knee. But Ganon's dtilt is envious >

Yeah, about Boozer.

If he shields any of your approaches, you're going to get punished with fortress. No doubt. Even jab won't save you from Fortress.

Yeah. Which SUCKS. Happens to my snake WAAY too much, I don't ever try to CQC boozer anymore.

It'd be scary if we actually proved CF has an advantage over anyone.

METAKNIGHT BEWARE! LOL

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dtilt is a good poke move, but... jumping > dtilt. Did I mention we can approach with uair? We can jump over ganon and hit with the back hitbox of uair, or even hop towards ganon and pop a uair before touching the ground. I do believe the shieldstun is high enough to allow for a quick sidestep or jab, and cf's jab beats ganon's to the punch.

Jumping doesn't do anything unless, A. you predict it and B. you attempt to do something about it, because if you do nothing about it, you're in the same position, still disadvantaged. And heaven help you if you run into Ganon's shield due to a miffed prediction because you are getting punished.

Short-hopped, it's asking for an up-smash as you go over.

Full-hop is a Ganon uair waiting to happen.

As for the range issue...
Ehh, range, WE KNOW. STOP RUBBING IT IN ITS THE SAME WITH EVERYONE :'(

lol

That's because it defines a lot of his match-ups. It has to be brought up.

Ehh, I'll say Its neutral then, 50:50

No way, forcing an approach +ability to punish any approach is an advantage, unless those approaches had enough unique counters that it's not practical that they could be beaten.

Predicting a dtilt could lead to a knee. But Ganon's dtilt is envious >

So?

Ganon wants you to try and predict his dtilt and attempt to knee him or something. Because then he gets to do nasty things to you.

The problem is, your approaches are punishable, so a failed prediction is really really bad. Especially because it's Ganon.

Then there's the problem that because Ganondorf has to create an opening, the prediction game is significantly opposing CF, this means Ganondorf controls the pacing of the match.


So Captain Falcon can punish well in this match-up, it's not enough to cover his advantages and the fact that he's the one forced to make himself vulnerable doesn't help.

 

[Swoops]

Ganon's defense is solid, but Falcon can bait the shield with a fake approach and massively use grabs. Ehh... I need to fight a pro ganon so I can get the full scoop, because the ganon I do play *who is great with shiek* might not be as good a ganon as I had previously thought.

Dtilt is a good poke move, but... jumping > dtilt. Did I mention we can approach with uair? We can jump over ganon and hit with the back hitbox of uair, or even hop towards ganon and pop a uair before touching the ground. I do believe the shieldstun is high enough to allow for a quick sidestep or jab, and cf's jab beats ganon's to the punch.

As for the range issue...
Ehh, range, WE KNOW. STOP RUBBING IT IN ITS THE SAME WITH EVERYONE :'(

Solid is underestimating it . Baiting then grabbing is good in theory, especially with Falcon's speed. But you'll find that Falcon's short hop is at a nasty level, allowing us to stop it with just about everything in our arsenal. Jab, u-air, DA, wizkick, stomp (on n-air and in most cases u-air approaches), b-air, and even d-tilt in cases destroy a lot of aerial approaches and either don't have any lag, don't have enough, or travel far enough to kill a run in attempt before it happens.

Yea, we can do the same thing with our u-air, except just RARing it, which has good range and leads to d-tilts and jabs. An u-air over our head would just get murdered by our u-air, DA, or wizkick. An u-air shouldn't have enough shieldstun to prevent a shield grab. And f-tilt, jab, d-tilt, and stomp would stop that approach cold.

Jump barely > d-tilt. Jumping over it is a little bit more useful with other characters. You're going to have to anticipate the d-tilt pretty well to counter with jump. If you're off by a bit you're going to eat it.

 

[Wogrim]

I think you're overrating Ganon's aerials (against Falcon). Trading hits with the Knee is a bad idea most of the time.

Our DSmash is safe against slow characters on shield unless it gets powershielded it pushes them too far away to punish it. Therefore a partially charged DSmash (so that it will come in after a dodge, will punish a roll, and won't be powershielded) is a great poking move for us unless the other player has a faster move at that range and happens to use it instead of playing defensively (which they usually won't because if we approach instead of poke they'll get beat).

UAir is safe on shield because of no landing lag and enough range that it's out of grab range (it also has shield knockback that can sometimes make someone think they're in shield-grab range and then they get pushed back as they're trying to grab, so we can punish the grab, although that's not reliable because powershielding doesn't get pushback).

I'm pretty sure autocancelled DAirs are safe on shield as well because Falcon's speed (out of a dash) puts him quite far behind the opponent.

Falcon Dive (up-B) is safe on shield and outranges non-tether grabs. (Not sure what moves of Ganon's it outranges)

DTilt isn't too fast but it happens to poke under shields a good deal of the time.

And of course grab is safe on shield.

We have enough options that shielding != win, no matter how good of out-of-shield options you have.