Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[SmashBrother2008]

falcon boards are dying, so i guess its pointless to have a discussion if only 1 person is participating. im going to just let stage discussion die out too

edit:ganon-i find it pretty hard to punish ganon, he either shield-grabs,ftilt,or jabs
you should watch out for his spike, it's too rediculous. usually ganons edgeguards with u-tilt, ehich is very laggy but the range is outrageous

Hey, I'm still here. I guess I could participate more...

I find alot of Ganons that edge guard by spamming dTilt or even Dair with small ledge hops. Your best bet for recovery on Ganondorf would be to drop below > recover > drop and grab to wait out Ganon's laggy edgeguarding moves > Use the appropriate tactic to return to the stage's surface.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I'll type some text walls for these matchups, I'll break em into 2 posts.

Falcon vs Ganondorf

One of the few matchups I'd give falcon the advantage in. Ganon is SLOW. VERY SLOW. But, he's powerful as heck. He's got lots of tricks up his sleeve, like murder choke, and thunderstorming. But, this matchup is good for falcon, since falcon has a faster ground game, and can counter ganon's air game with one move.

Utilt. Utilt stops thunderstorming FAST. It also outranges his grab and hits murder choke a LONG way before it'll touch ya. It'll also clash with wizkick too, I believe. Needless to say, DON'T ROLL. Rolling = getting daired to begin a thunderstorm, or grabbed, or even fsmashed/dsmashed. Just. Don't. Roll. Got it?

Jab > grab works wonders here, and if you can get ganny off the ground, he'll be a bit vulnerable. Just watch out for his fair, its a killer, but getting daired in the air isn't as bad if you're at high percents, since you'll fall back to the stage. Still, watch out for it. I recommend lots of uairs and bairs in this fight.

Another approach outside of the norm, is shorthopping and right before hitting the ground, throwing out a uair. It works MUCH better on taller characters, and it'll pop ganny up fast for follow up.

I'd give this matchup a 55:45 in Falcon's favor. Its definately one of Falcon's preferred matchups. Don't slip up and get KOed early, and you'll win.

*quick note* Ganon's recovery isn't spectacular, so gimp him if you can. Just watch out for ganoncide!

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Falcon vs Bowser

Bowser has RANGE. Falcon does not. Bowser has PRIORITY. Falcon does not. But, you have SPEED, and bowser will be shock and awed by it.

This matchup is all about baiting and punishing, but on a bigger scale. Its a big spacing fight, use your long range moves wisely *utilt, ftilt, dtilt*

You need to keep a KO move fresh, I usually keep dsmash fresh for bowser. Find out what percent he needs to be at to get KOed, then land one and move on to the next stock. You DON'T want bowser living to the 160%s... cuz then that usually means you'll be down a stock.

Bowser's fair is powerful and hard to avoid because it comes out FAST. I don't recommend chasing dthrows because of this. Approach a bowser in the air cautiously, since getting faired isn't fun. Nair comes out fast as well, and his Uair can KO at 100%, if not less. Approach bowser from below, and this is a good chance to practice some falcon dives, since they can cut through his aerials with not too much difficulty.

Falcon kick is your approach of choice, but don't overdo it or you'll be falcon kicking into some fire breath. If he starts reading your kicks, then start jumping over him and planting bairs, or maybe add pressure with a falcon punch. Bowser does have cooldown on his fire breath, you may get lucky!

Bowser's throws are great... but he has a dangerous grab release combo to his jab. I suggest sitting outside of bowser range if you can, and if you can't then jab.

One last note, if you happen to be in body to body contact, BEWARE OF WHIRLING FORTRESS *Up and B* I'm not sure, but I think he may have super armor on the move, or even invincible frames. Whatever he has, it'll blast you high up and add a hefty bit of damage to you, as well as breaking any type of follow up you may have had. Whirling Fortress KOs at 120%ish if he hits you with the opening frames, so be on guard.

This matchup isn't bad, but its not good either. I'd give it an even 50:50 split, a neutral matchup. Bowser's raw strength and range is good, but falcon has all the answers built into his electric knee of justice. This is definately a winnable fight.

*quick note* Bowser is bigtime gimp material, go crazy with ledgedropped flubbed knees and uairs.

 

[Majora_younglink]

One last note, if you happen to be in body to body contact, BEWARE OF WHIRLING FORTRESS *Up and B* I'm not sure, but I think he may have super armor on the move, or even invincible frames. Whatever he has, it'll blast you high up and add a hefty bit of damage to you, as well as breaking any type of follow up you may have had. Whirling Fortress KOs at 120%ish if he hits you with the opening frames, so be on guard..

I'm fairly sure its invincible frames. I play Bowser as a second and from what I can tell its invincible.

Also, if you can make him play stages without ledges. Without ledges/big stages he can't control the stage nearly as well.

Also he can Klaw approach you with for the most part kind of ****s over a lot of C Falc's approaches. UpB may or may not out prioritize the Klaw so I would think that would be a decent idea if a Boozer is Klaw approaching.

Also USmash is amazing good on Bowser as a damage racker but not so much as a kill move in my opinion.

Also, be aware that Fire Breath WILL **** you over in terms of basically every approach but it's easily punishable.

I would say something about his grabs, but luckily Boozer's chaingrab on Falcon is basically no existent along with his tilts and such so that's a good thing for C Falcon.

 

[LinIsKorean]

I'll throw in my two cents.

Ganondorf : I haven't played many Ganondorf mains, but from what I can tell, as long as you punish his laggy moves, Falcon's speed will give him the advantage. Ganon can easily KO Falcon at low percentages, so watching and dodging his moves is extremely important. I'd say its about 55:45 with Falcon at an advantage, simply because of his speed.

Bowser : Being a former Bowser main, I can actually give some decent advice here. Bowser will attempt to get Fire Breath off whenever he can, so you have to be extremely cautious, cause that sucker racks up damage fast. Bowser is another character that tends to play defensively, so watching for UpB OoS is important. Using Falcon's aerials will be important, especially his UAir, because Bowser's FAir will outprioritize most of Falcon's aerials. Using Falcon Dive and Raptor Boost as approaches will help, simply because Bowser is big and slow. Bowser is a beast, his FSmash (GIMPYFISH COMBO!) will have you KOed early on if you're not careful. SH knees can be your saviour. I'd say this one is 50:50, Bowser tends to do poorly against faster characters.

Both characters are large, so use your knee and DAir effectively.

Well, that's about it, hope it was of some use.

 

[Wogrim]

I wouldn't say Ganon is an easy matchup because although he is slow, his defensive game is very good.

Bowser's not too hard because he's pretty baitable, but his Fire Breath when you're trying to recover (stand at the edge and angle Fire Breath straight down) can rack up serious damage, and it also can wreck your ground approaches (but if he intercepts your air approaches with FAir you'll have problems there too).

I agree with most everything else that's been said so far.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I wouldn't say Ganon is an easy matchup because although he is slow, his defensive game is very good.

Bowser's not too hard because he's pretty baitable, but his Fire Breath when you're trying to recover (stand at the edge and angle Fire Breath straight down) can rack up serious damage, and it also can wreck your ground approaches (but if he intercepts your air approaches with FAir you'll have problems there too).

I agree with most everything else that's been said so far.

Ganon's defensive game is good, but you've got the upper hand with your speed. Ganon's only move that can beat you to the punch is his jab, and you have a jab to counter it. His uair is a great anti air move, but its range is lacking, so much so that falcon has probably a better time approaching from the air. In my experience, I've always had the most trouble running at Ganon, since a fast jab can end any type of forward assault.

 

[peeeetah]

both characters are tall enough to get hit by both hits of falcon's shnair, so that's also a pretty good move to approach with at times. sh nair will connect on most tall characters actually. dk, rob, ganon, bowser, d3, charizard. this is the only thing i know of that applies to both bowser and ganon. i don't fight many bowsers but ganons plenty.

for ganon, sh airdodge to grab works well because of his lag. airdodge the jab/tilt/whatever and grab.

throwing out a hyphen-upsmash to ko at high percents works well too, especially when they're expecting another ko move, like a knee.

you can gimp ganon melee style too. reverse uairs work awesome offstage. so do bairs actually.

ganon's roll is slow too, so look for situations where you can predict where he's going to roll and knee there.

jab also totally destroys ganon's game. throw it out often. you want to be extremely close when you're fighting ganon.

also remember that if you start getting overwhelmed falcon's fast enough where he can just run to the other side of the stage. no projectiles to chase you.

oh. and falcon can outrun the shadow choke if you see it coming.

 

[Lareit]

I believe we should request insight from Bowser and Ganon mains in this situation and furthermore in most semi neutral matchups to see where they personally stand.

I'd have to argue even matchup against ganon, his defensive game and significantly easier KO ability makes up for his lack of speed to punish. He also is quite capable of an early Dair ko to make up some of the gimping we can do to him as well.

Bowser has atleast a 55/45 advantage simply due to his ability to block both our approach vectors. Bowser mains play him like a fortress, they aren't going to leave themselves open to attack blindly. They're going to counter our approach and punish, and the amount of damage an edge guard flamebreath racks up can change a stock entirely.


I'd recommend a slow approach to ganon, and spot dodge the murder chokes they love to through out to people who they think are stalling. Jab combo's are amazing against ganon since he shares falcon's pathetic grab range and is unable to shield grab it effectively.

Bowser is a different beast. I'd personally recommend Nair through the shields and reverse Falcon Dive after you land behind him to get him to play more aggressive, then punish with speed. The reason I give him the advantage is you have to remain dilligent the entire fight, while bowser simply needs a couple opportunities to turn the tide in his favor.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Hmm, good to see more discussion going on. :D

But can we generally agree that Gannon and Boozer are about even match ups then? If that's the case, we might want to try to get some people that main them to help like Lareit said.

 

[Snowstalker]

Well, the Gannys have CF as 65:35 their favor.

 

[Ayaz18]

Bowser is a beast, after playing Sliq I know that Bowser has a lot of tricks

watch out for his grab release combos

 

[Zeallyx]

Well, the Gannys have CF as 65:35 their favor.

Bowser is a beast, after playing Sliq I know that Bowser has a lot of tricks

watch out for his grab release combos

these two posts sum up that bowser and ganny are no even match ups to falcon (like no 50-50 match ups)

I think it's more like:
ganny VS Falcon: 55-45 ganny's favor
bowser VS Falcon: 70-30 bowsers favor

although I personally like fighting ganondorfs as they are easier to beat than any other char (match up wise, I'm not attacking the ganon mains in any way)
so imo falcon has the advantage, but when one looks at the facts, ganon has the advantage

 

[Majora_younglink]

A 55-45 matchup is basically even. Once you start going into the 60s then the matches start becoming sided on one character.

And Bowser does NOT have it that good on C Falcon. Like even near it to be honest. At most he's be in the slight advantages of 60s. Bowser is way to open for punishing when he makes a mistake and big enough so C Falc can knee and the such easily when he does. It's not even like he has his big grab releases like he does on other characters either. It's basically a no trick matchup for the most part as neither has anything that gives them an explicit advantage.

As for the Gannondorf matchup... A link would be nice. I think we'd need another perspective of the matchup and that should be a start.

 

[Zeallyx]

A 55-45 matchup is basically even. Once you start going into the 60s then the matches start becoming sided on one character.

And Bowser does NOT have it that good on C Falcon. Like even near it to be honest. At most he's be in the slight advantages of 60s. Bowser is way to open for punishing when he makes a mistake and big enough so C Falc can knee and the such easily when he does. It's not even like he has his big grab releases like he does on other characters either. It's basically a no trick matchup for the most part as neither has anything that gives them an explicit advantage.

As for the Gannondorf matchup... A link would be nice. I think we'd need another perspective of the matchup and that should be a start.

well, bowsers moves (the damage/knockback they do) are his advantage
when falcon makes a mistake bowser hits harder than falcon hits him when he does

and bowser has more AT's IIRC

 

[Roager]

My two cents here.
Boozer: One of Falcon's easier matches. He is slow, but watch out for some of this aerials, they can come out of nowhere. Also, grab release stuffs is unfriendly, but Falcon's Uair and Nair set up nicely. I don't know any really good bowsers, though. I'd call this even. or slightly Falcon's favor. 55-45 to 60-40.

Ganny: Another good matchup. Ganny has few tricks that Falcon doesn't, and Falcon does most things better. Watch out for MurderChoke roll chasing, and such like that. And Ganoncide. But, like Boozer, create openings with uair and nair, since there are few options to defend it. Once you get some openings out, go for dairs, fairs, and bairs. Just watch out for jabs, sparta kicks, and usmashes. These are some of Ganny's (in my experience) most useful moves to get rid of Falcon. I'd call it Falcon's favor, 60-40, give or take.

also, lol at thread. two of the worst matchups to two of the best.

 

[Majora_younglink]

^ ATs don't make a character better in a matchup if they do little to help the character. But then again, that's why we need a Bowser mainer's input. Also the argument of being hit harder could be applied to Gannondorf then but in theory C Falc should be punishing a lot more due to speed and such. Range and priority are valid points to Bowser though.

also, lol at thread. two of the worst matchups to two of the best.

I did that on purpose, to get people to actually discuss a variety of matchups not just good or bad.

Maybe next time it'll be a good and bad matchup at the SAME time?!

 

[Lareit]

^ ATs don't make a character better in a matchup if they do little to help the character. But then again, that's why we need a Bowser mainer's input. Also the argument of being hit harder could be applied to Gannondorf then but in theory C Falc should be punishing a lot more due to speed and such. Range and priority are valid points to Bowser though.



I did that on purpose, to get people to actually discuss a variety of matchups not just good or bad.

Maybe next time it'll be a good and bad matchup at the SAME time?!

UNPOSSIBLE, Falcon has no more even matchups!

 

[Ayaz18]

guys really don't underestimate bowser, he has A LOT of options out of his infinite jump, his forward B kills and does like what 16-20%? he can CG EVERY character in the game by his grab releases, and even combo extensively with them. Examples are like grab release to Dtilt (release on ground) or grab release to Uair (which kills at like 80 %)

people like Sliq make him seem broken

 

[Sliq]

guys really don't underestimate bowser, he has A LOT of options out of his infinite jump, his forward B kills and does like what 16-20%? he can CG EVERY character in the game by his grab releases, and even combo extensively with them. Examples are like grab release to Dtilt (release on ground) or grab release to Uair (which kills at like 80 %)

people like Sliq make him seem broken

Bowser can only effectively CG MK, and grab release down tilt doesn't work on everyone, and grab release up tilt only work on Wario.

 

[nasir123]

Bowser can only effectively CG MK, and grab release down tilt doesn't work on everyone, and grab release up tilt only work on Wario.

False. apparently Bowser can CG everyone with grab releases, if you remember god-is-my-rock's vid, it goes in depth about how Bowser can do it, but requires expert timing.............. man just saying expert timing wants me to break into the kung fu fighting song

This is ayaz but my bro's account is on and im trolling it

 

[Sliq]

False. apparently Bowser can CG everyone with grab releases, if you remember god-is-my-rock's vid, it goes in depth about how Bowser can do it, but requires expert timing.............. man just saying expert timing wants me to break into the kung fu fighting song

This is ayaz but my bro's account is on and im trolling it

No. Every character but MK can jump break out of the grab (due to Bowser's slow grab jab) and therefor escape.

But yeah, you know more about my character than me.

 

[Lareit]

No. Every character but MK can jump break out of the grab (due to Bowser's slow grab jab) and therefor escape.

But yeah, you know more about my character than me.

Many similar "unbreakable" grab release cg's have been refuted so I'm not suprised.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Many similar "unbreakable" grab release cg's have been refuted so I'm not suprised.

Yeah, its just a matter of knowing when you'll get out. I've gotten a bit better at timing jump break releases when I was messing around with ness.

 

[Zeallyx]

^ ATs don't make a character better in a matchup if they do little to help the character. But then again, that's why we need a Bowser mainer's input. Also the argument of being hit harder could be applied to Gannondorf then but in theory C Falc should be punishing a lot more due to speed and such. Range and priority are valid points to Bowser though.



I did that on purpose, to get people to actually discuss a variety of matchups not just good or bad.

Maybe next time it'll be a good and bad matchup at the SAME time?!

guys really don't underestimate bowser, he has A LOT of options out of his infinite jump, his forward B kills and does like what 16-20%? he can CG EVERY character in the game by his grab releases, and even combo extensively with them. Examples are like grab release to Dtilt (release on ground) or grab release to Uair (which kills at like 80 %)

people like Sliq make him seem broken

yeah, priority and range would've been a better example

bowser can be quite difficult to beat >.<

 

[Psychoace]

I'd give bowser the advantage but that's mainly stage specific and because of fortress and firebreath. As long as your under bowser it's not to bad, knee sticks slightly through battlefield's platforms and upair is safe for the most part, and since most stages are platforms now the only way your going to beat him is to be under him. but there are just more options overall that bowser has over falcon.

Ganon is 50/50. It's all about bait/punish and setups there.

 

[Zeallyx]

Ganon may be one of the easier matchups, but he's not 50-50
he got more than falcon (side b techchase/combo's)

 

[ShadowX718]

Gah, the CG isn't very hardcore. Consider me a rusty Falcon, but needless, in every experience I've had with pro MKs, I've never done better than getting 2 stocked. I'm sure, in my prime with CF, I could take em to the last stock, but... it's just terrible. Simply terrible.

I vote CF for highest learning curve, though I hear yoshi's got a high learning curve too.

I got used to him pretty quick actually.
I think ZSS is the the one that will take forever to master.

 

[ShadowX718]

Yeah, olimar's offensive game is bad. If he tries to approach falcon, falcon can easily put up a good fight, but seeing as most of olimar's kill moves are defensive in nature *usmash, throws, fsmash* Olimar's tend to just sit still. Perhaps outlasting his pikmin spam, then attacking when he's plucking more?

That's why I hate that lil *******.
But I don't have a problem with him anymore.
Pit is a good match up against him.

 

[Sliq]

I haven't played a good Falcon ever, which pretty much means that I'm going to go with the match being in Bowser's favor. Probably like 65-35.

 

[Rapzz]

When I face Bowser or apparently any large size character, the first thing that pops in my head is having an easier time to sweetspot the knee and I always go for it when I have the chance. You just have to be careful on how predictable you use it. But that's just me.

 

[Ayaz18]

I haven't played a good Falcon ever, which pretty much means that I'm going to go with the match being in Bowser's favor. Probably like 65-35.

yeah sorry I didn't pull out Falcon when I faced you in doubles

I was the guy with the 3D glasses member at OiN2?? I used DK and my bro used MK against you and Niko, from Niko we gave you guys a good fight but iunno what you thought

about the grab release, iunno for sure but I do remember some vid. That doesn't mean I know anything but im bringing up a point to argue that this match-up is difficult

 

[Majora_younglink]

^ I'm not sure its THAT hard. But the more I think about it and read over the facts, the more I think Bowser has a slight advantage but I'm honestly not sure how much or if its even that big of one.
I think its time we bring out facts over who has advantages in what areas. For sure, Bowser has defensive game over C Falcon, range, and priority over most moves.

Ganon may be one of the easier matchups, but he's not 50-50
he got more than falcon (side b techchase/combo's)

I think we need specifics on this. The more I hear about this, the more I want to know how these fit into normal matches with Falcon. It could just be a case of small things that don't really tilt the matchup like C Falc's CG on MK.

 

[Psychoace]

Ganon can murder choke tech chase combo....

 

[Sliq]

yeah sorry I didn't pull out Falcon when I faced you in doubles

I was the guy with the 3D glasses member at OiN2?? I used DK and my bro used MK against you and Niko, from Niko we gave you guys a good fight but iunno what you thought

about the grab release, iunno for sure but I do remember some vid. That doesn't mean I know anything but im bringing up a point to argue that this match-up is difficult

HE made a video, yes, and then made another video afterwards showing that it is beatable via various methods (methods I'm not going to explain because I'm not an idiot; I don't need people breaking out of my ****).

 

[Ayaz18]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

word

 

[Zeallyx]

taken from the ganon boards:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190763

as seen in that thread, ganon seems to have alot more techniques/AT's and true combo's
so he has more potential so to speak.

so ganon VS falcon isn't 50-50
it's more like 60-40 ganon's favor

 

[Majora_younglink]

taken from the ganon boards:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190763

as seen in that thread, ganon seems to have alot more techniques/AT's and true combo's
so he has more potential so to speak.

so ganon VS falcon isn't 50-50
it's more like 60-40 ganon's favor

Potential doesn't make a matchup. Stop listing it as a valid reason why a matchup isn't in one characters favor. A character can have tons of potential but still have a bad/even matchup against a character that has less potential. If you would have said he has combos on C Falcon (CGs, grab release, etc) then it would be a different story. The few combos I can reliably tell he has on C Falc relies on Thundering which is easy to poke with NAir.

The thread is worth looking into though but just having some ATs doesn't make him auto better than another character. The name of the game is advantages. Just saying he has more ATs doesn't make him better.

EDIT: Started reading through the thread for C Falc's matchup on Gannondorf. Most of the people there had no idea what the hell they were talking about C Falc. They listed several things that just didn't even start to show what C Falcon players really are about, not to mention the only person really talking for C Falcon was Gheb who doesn't even play C Falc iirc(though his cases for the matchup weren't all that bad imo) and A2ZOMG ( I feel his analysis on the matchup was probably the most accurate of any of the matchups there) . The thread is here : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192969

 

[Lareit]

HE made a video, yes, and then made another video afterwards showing that it is beatable via various methods (methods I'm not going to explain because I'm not an idiot; I don't need people breaking out of my ****).

Bah, one of the first things I'd do when I mained snake was tell people to grab me on my cypher and let me fall.

You don't make yourself a better player by allowing people to remain ignorant. Because all that does is make you accustomed to fighting someone who isn't knowledgeable. That'll set you up for bad habits that someone who does know what they're doing will punish.

I'd still give the Ganon Matchup 55-45 or 60-40. His aerial game beats falcon and his tech chase game makes ground approaches hesitant. The sad truth is falcon player's have a mind set of any character that isn't a pure struggle (such as MK, Toonlink, Marth) is an even advantage or even our advantage.

 

[Sliq]

You don't make yourself a better player by allowing people to remain ignorant. Because all that does is make you accustomed to fighting someone who isn't knowledgeable. That'll set you up for bad habits that someone who does know what they're doing will punish.

People already know about it, but no one does it to Bowser, and I'm not going to tell people how to do it or that they should do it since it hurts my character. You can say I'm selfish, I don't care.