Canadian Salt Spill - Tool Link+

[VietGeek]

I swear you and Magus are amazing lurkers all-seeing. =V

 

[zaf]

I can agree with everything viet posted. Toon link is not a tank. He was never meant to be offensive all the time. His projectiles are his game. He needs them to win. They were not even touched. Nothing was even buffed, just polished.

We aren't asking for game breaking buffs. Just small little polishes to fix moves ( fsmash and dsmash). I can't count on my hand how many times i hit with a fsmash and someone just gets out or even shields it ffs.

Against fast characters ( cf and sonic) the projectiles are even harder to use. Making it even harder for toon link to win.

Against luigi and jigglypuff, the only way to combo them is bair to bair to bair. They can't be combo'd that well by toon link. Luigi just nairs out of it, and jigglypuff is jigglypuff.

Against yoshi, it's hard to combo after a throw or just even combo him at low percentage because he has super armor on his jump. I play against yoshi the most. So i know the match up. I am usually stuck shooting projectiles and hitting and running till about 30% or higher, unless i can get a bair combo in.

How predictable is a bair combo? Toon link is facing backwards. You know what's coming. IF toon link isn't shooting projectiles you know what he will do. He is a predictable character by nature.

 

[shanus]

This is the kind of discussion I like to see. I would comment now, but I just hit in the face with a ton of work so I'll comment tomorrow morning.

I mostly agree with what is posted by you Viet, and I think you can tell what changes are superfluous and what changes are legit, and that is what the purpose of this was all about.

I'll comment more when i have more time.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Epic post Viet . And I dont mind the fthrow/bthrow changes removed since u know...dthrow overshadows them almost completely anyways :/.

 

[VietGeek]

I want you guys to use the current TL test dair and spike, and see what percentages does it become impossible to meteor cancel and recover...for let's say Sonic and his Up-B only (no spin dashing into walls or anything).

Basically a simple test that hopefully someone can do with another person. I'd appreciate it.

I'd also like for each and everyone of you to prioritize what you want done to this character and what you wouldn't care about losing (that is currently in the test set). Consider this final judgment. Whatever goes down stays.

It's time to let this character be gold and get him over with, no?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

the OP should contain the most recent change.

 

[Swordplay]

I'll admit I am a little biased but I try not to let that get in the way...........Right now, I feel misinterpreted.....

Bad characters deserve buffs

"Okay characters" like TL can have buffs to but they have to be far more justified. You don't go around FIXING moves because you can unless they are absolutely 100% ******** and I don't see a move like that.


You DO go around Fixing things based on matchups. I want to know how the changes you want will help TL in matchups that he really NEEDS IT. Justify your changes this way instead of just complaining "THIS IS BROKEN LETS FIX IT CAUSE TL DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT." If you can do this and be specific, citing specific matchups. I will support the changes. Until the, I think you guys are overdoing it.

TL;DR: It's only a "feel" thing.

I know I selected a very small example that really only applies to physics but allow me to go on.....See this is what makes me angry. TL "feels" right to me. I like him the way he is. If you want to change things, tell me anything about how these changes will affect matchups TL has a really hard time in instead of talking about %'s and angles........which you didn't do. What you did do is compare your character to other characters (2nd) paragraph) but you really didn't talk about match ups or I could not tell if you have the intent on being specific.

Hmm.

Here's a few "buffs/tweaks" that I've put in test sets that aren't in an official set yet, but probably have a very high chance of getting in:

- no reversible KB on fsmash 1. The fsmash itself is still easier to escape then that auto-Sheik fsmash if you hit at the tip (believably escapable anyway, and Sheik is you know...a better character already). This will just insure nothing wonky will happen. More of a polish than a buff.

- Dsmash. Considering I've nerfed it from 8-13, and the original dsmash was still glitchy despite your work Shanus, I guess you can agree to this staying?

- Dair: Shanus I think we agreed a while ago that this move was vastly flawed by design and needed to be worth using offstage to offset the risk it presented. While the current form needs to be tweaked, this is the direction we all agreed on if this move were to be changed, right? Just make it stronger?

Now the other stuff:

- Physics. Well...I can't really say this is a buff if it doesn't allow him to do anything but "feel better." Most people say he feels "better" this way, but gravity affects his recovery. Hence why I need to compensate that so it can go back to its original Brawl+ state. A physics change will only buff/nerf if it affects what kind of strategies are employed, which this one doesn't quite do that. If anything it makes certain tactics harder to do (arrow cancels) but patches up the huge contrast between normal fall and fastfall.

TL;DR: It's only a "feel" thing. It doesn't promote new tactics, but "patches up the huge contrast between normal fall and fastfall." It's not a buff but a revision. I've read the WBR archives and it was said in the old Plussery thread too, most of those physic changes were WiP. We've had a WiP physics change forever. The deadline for physics never existed to my knowledge. Maybe it was understood? o_o

- Boomerang start-up animation speed-up (wow what a mouthful): This doesn't change how fast the boomerang comes out, it only let's him trail it slightly sooner. I thought buffing strengths was fine to an extent. This gives him another combo option which is fine considering his 26 frames of commitment prior to the boomerang appearing. The return animation is unchanged. Boomerang has a lot of promise but in a faster space game it feels too restraining. Toon Link is a hit-and-run character. Mobility is something he needs. It was fine in vB due to its pace, but a 1.2x PURE animation speed-up doesn't seem like too much.

The boomerang *DOES NOT* go faster or come out faster for anyone who just skims this thread. <_<

- As for the dair windboxes, they're not too reliable and don't really do much. Now if the wind boxes had Pit's Icarus Wing's power...=V. So this can be removed, because it's doubtful it has any utility due to its hitbox offsets.

- Fthrow/Bthrow: Seems no one cares about these although some people wanted to try making them more useful. I'm fine with removing them.

- UpB: I've never buffed this move (at least not in a test set or in a build) and it sucks. It will also suck more because of the larger SDI windows. Eh?

- Fair: I was gonna comment that I would not support this change and wouldn't try it unless enough people wanted it. Although it seems the World's Fair has ended boys.

With that I'm done and out. If you guys still want to go ahead and do whatever I won't stop you. I just wanted to defend myself so I didn't sound like a extremely biased person. If you justify it then you are in your right and I am out of line.

ONE MORE THING. I know isn't it a little convenient that I spoke up now? I guess that's where my bias slips in. Sorry If I exploded on you but I feel this way about more characters than just TL. I admit that is my fault.

 

[VietGeek]

There is some discrepancy on physic change "guidelines" (read: there aren't any >_>). Even slight physic changes are left entirely "justified" out of "feel" and how "most" people "feel." Despite it being numbers plugged in, it's more abstract than concrete. Physics that try to prevent certain strategies, or try to add strategies have a more concrete guideline to follow, as those do go into black and white, buff and nerf territory.

A "feel" thing is a large gray area.

I suppose there's no way to go for or against a physics changes (other than saying why was it changed at all; but again that's about as a moot point as simply saying it "feels better" for the change) that is purely out of "feeling" and not out to fix or add anything. I suppose this is where democracy goes into this. It seems the majority of an already small group said the change was fine.

Your criteria levels for buff justification is rather high. I'll see to meet your expectations sometime today. Maybe.

 

[Finns7]

I cant even play this game anymore....it "feels" like everything, every matchup has changed so much...some buffs are more justified than others and to me some are just thrown in there. The smallest change may help TL a little in this matchup...but will it make him unstoppable in another? How do we decide what is right now that char who gets wrecked will need buffs...Im not with this buffing stuff, or rather making stuff "feel" better which in my eyes means making it EEEZZZ sauce...

Viet your post is the first I read on this site...I kinda quit b+ but I apart of me is still in it. Now with that said I feel you on some things...with the overall gameplay speed up and char running speeds and the increased options gained by shielding in inintial dash and crouch canceling, getting around projectiles is sauce now..It really only ***** slow and heavy chars (what a suprise). ToonLink and Link arnt 100% sword chars, they need to use a mix of both flowing from one to the other. In some matchups it feels as though I am naked, zair doesnt protect link/tlink rang (link lol) either and bombs are ok for both if your good at following up. Arrows are arrows, they dont matter to me for either char the main problem is how link and toonlink feel like there playing in slow motion compared to other chars, but in links case its worse because he gets comboed and eguarded more easily imo.

To be honest I dont want link or toonlink to get buffs or changes, even though I seriously think its hella needed for link and needed for tlink, Im tired of this game being EZ and making them so they "work" "feel" (EZ mode) better. I say we start removing things rather than adding them.

 

[Swordplay]

Sorry Viet...........last post I promise but when I read finnz post I just had to respond and confirm.

I didn't mean to explode, I'm kind of in Finnz camp. I think the game has gotten to the point we really need to be critical about the buffs and or changed proposed......I suppose thats why my standards are raised so much. Not just for Tink but for all characters, even my own characters. I just want to be careful at what we add at this point to the game as there is so much in it.

Hopefully you feel me on this. I realize my standards are unnaturally high because of how I feel about the game now so I'm sorry. Your free to do whatever you want to improve the game. I just am hesitant about the direction chosen.

 

[iLink]

Lol bomb recovery kinda does the opposite with the latest PSA file XD

I honestly didn't notice the change in the dair and the boomerang change was nice.

 

[VietGeek]

dude dair has a giant purple fire effect how could you not notice. =V

Err yeah, I'm gonna remove that anti-momentum thing LOL.

There are some complications...so...

You guys care about recovery or the physics more for now?

Unless a(n) Almas miracle happens by the end of this week...

it's one or the other. =V

 

[zaf]

i prefer recovery, i can still play toon link with floaty physics. If i lose a match because i have a weird recovery after a momentum canceling hit(a fair from yoshi does this), it will be realllllllllly gay.

 

[VietGeek]

zaf that only happens cuz of the ghetto fix i tried to make

if I remove that, I'm basically asking

do you want the new physics with the slightly worse recovery (until Almas fixes his special grav. code or w/e, but he's a busy man),

or the old physics and the old recovery.

 

[Player-3]

so i figured id pop in to talk to viet

hi viet

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

+1 old 4 gold

 

[zaf]

the old physics and old recovery still.

 

[VietGeek]

that's cool.

Toon Link is "gold" then boys. Thanks for playing!

 

[zaf]

The physics was easy to adapt to on your .pac viet, but it didn't change toon link all that much in terms of what he can and can't do. Yes, it was easier to ff and was not as floaty, but i have become use to that with the 4.3 ( labeled as 5.0) build. So what it basically comes down to is the recovery for me. I feel bad that most of your work/posts are now in vain, when you are doing the most work for this character.

I just got a quick question viet, was it you that i met in philly half a year ago at clash of the titans? I remember siting on a tv having toon link battles with santi and lobos. Wasn't sure who the last one was.

 

[VietGeek]

Nope, it wasn't me. I think it was Quivo?

No worries, just look forward to the next set. =P

 

[Demacrez]

Nope, it wasn't me. I think it was Quivo?

No worries, just look forward to the next set. =P

Nyororo...

 

[iLink]

Wait we are sticking with the old physics? e_e

I actually got used to these new test ones and it ultimately felt better.

 

[zaf]

well yes it did feel better. But i think toon links recovery is more important till viets physics are fixed

viet: lol yea i think it was quivo, hes a little asian kid right lol?

 

[Self Distructo]

well yes it did feel better. But i think toon links recovery is more important till viets physics are fixed

viet: lol yea i think it was quivo, hes a little asian kid right lol?

..no. He's black. And big.

 

[VietGeek]

No I'm pretty sure Quivo is Asian. <__<

Distructo your creditability falls like every post lmao

 

[Self Distructo]

No I'm pretty sure Quivo is Asian. <__<

Distructo your creditability falls like every post lmao

http://allisbrawl.com/profile/Quivo.ai

Wait..sorry.

 

[5ive]

I can't tell if he's joking, or if his profile is actually legit. <_<

 

[iLink]

well yes it did feel better. But i think toon links recovery is more important till viets physics are fixed

viet: lol yea i think it was quivo, hes a little asian kid right lol?

Does anyone really have trouble recovering with toon link? (Even with the slightly reduced height) It's either you get blasted off or your gonna make it back, considering they don't edgehog you or something.

 

[BRLNK88]

Does anyone really have trouble recovering with toon link? (Even with the slightly reduced height) It's either you get blasted off or your gonna make it back, considering they don't edgehog you or something.

Or if you botch the recovery, do side-B instead of up-B.
It's more punishable with no auto-edge grab.

 

[iLink]

Or if you botch the recovery, do side-B instead of up-B.
It's more punishable with no auto-edge grab.

When has anyone with a perfectly working controller ever botched the up-b and do a side-b instead?

That same situation can be said for other character like snake who just plummets.

 

[VietGeek]

A Marth player obv

 

[BRLNK88]

When has anyone with a perfectly working controller ever botched the up-b and do a side-b instead?

That same situation can be said for other character like snake who just plummets.

It has little to do with the controller.
>_>
When facing an excellent edgeguarder, its easy to get nervous and botch a recovery. In Tink's case its more punishable than say... ROB.
I've done it before, and I've seen really good players do it before.

 

[iLink]

It has little to do with the controller.
>_>
When facing an excellent edgeguarder, its easy to get nervous and botch a recovery. In Tink's case its more punishable than say... ROB.
I've done it before, and I've seen really good players do it before.

Shouldn't that be your fault in the first place? That's like saying Marth's charged B made me nervous and I accidently held out my shield too long and it broke, lets make my shield bigger! <_<

My example still stands valid, other characters can easily get screwed over by the same case of "botching" their recovery by using side-b

 

[zaf]

Testing the new toon link all night at work.
ill post if anything interesting comes up

 

[VietGeek]

I liked how Toon Link can combo with his boomerang but Sakurai can't make Zelda games.

Discuss.

 

[BRLNK88]

but Sakurai can't make Zelda games.

Discuss.

can't argue with that.
Or Metroid games.

 

[VietGeek]

Would anyone like to discuss what's great/"wow Toon Link is so dumb" about TL

as well as what sucks about him? =V

Oh and yeah, this is the TL everyone will be stuck with for like...ever.

Yay!...?! ^_x

 

[BRLNK88]

Great: 3 projectiles, lots of combo options, quick
Bad: recovery is subject to gimps, light, trouble getting early kills, lack of range for a sword character

I've given up pretty much on maining him in plus, Kirby is much better match-up wise.
But he's still my go-to guy when I'm forced to play vBrawl.

*EDIT*
WOO HOO, Smash Journeyman!!

 

[The Cape]

Just out of curiosity, why did TL get the boomerang throw speed up?

The move was already a good move, had combos, baiting, and forcing your opponent to move where you wanted or sheild when you wanted to. Now the move is just plain silly as you can throw the boomerang out with very little fear of being punished.

Just curious why he got it as it seems an unneccesary change to a character that could have been considered as perfect.

 

[VietGeek]

I'll be honest Cape, part of it is to promote camping. Toon Link is truly a character that can't doesn't play aggro too well, at least compared to other speedy characters like him. He's one of the characters that for some reason didn't quite get a buff in shield pressure from shieldstun. That somewhat has to do with him still playing very campy in B+.

The speed-up doesn't affect how fast the Boomerang comes out, but yes it does reduce throw endlag for him, and thus you would think it also helps him combo, most noticeably into fair, therefore being one of his most reliable kill set-ups. And yes, you're right.

However, here's some properties on the boomerang:

- Boomerang comes out on frame 27.
- Sweetspot does 11%, has enough stun for him to combo.
- Weak hit will reflect back to him and he'll suffer retrieval lag, which has not been touched.
- Boomerang returning from a whiff is unaffected.

The speed-up doesn't make the boomerang more potent as a combo starter since the sweetspot simply destroys the boomerang prop and regenerates it immediately back to TL. However to be at that range he either has to combo into the boomerang, or face some possible heat to get that sweetspot. Since I don't know any move that TL has that deals 27 frames of hitstun and also happens to be the frames where he's not in lag, to use it to set-up a kill over being a simple nuisance requires some hefty dedication frames.

So yes, it really only helps him out in the camping department in a game where almost everyone closes the gap very quickly so each time he decides to dedicate 27 frames, he should at least hope that they didn't go to vain. He can trail almost behind it, he has a strict window to SH boomerang > arrow cancel, and everyone's faovrite: run away.

Tool Link is already pretty gay, and I feel the change helps out that move just a tad, as it's a very important tool against TL's more polarized match-ups (Marth, MK, Olimar). I understand it also makes match-ups where he already dominates even better in his favor. That's a design flaw with being so projectile-oriented.

How abusable hasn't changed much as done at long-range and it would already be unpunishable unless you too are a projectile user. If he uses it up close you have 26 frames to punish the rather notable animation. Also the boomerang has below average priority and can be destroyed with a lot of moves.

I know you won't think of this as a good reason to the boomerang buff, but it's what Tool Link lives off of, being gay. I promise TL won't get gayer. =<

It's also a pretty subtle change. It's more favorable to use it now, but I still think the risk/reward ratio for both him and the opponent aren't quite skewed either way under the 1.2x speed up.