Can anyone tell me why Falcon is considered the worst?

[Live N' Learn]

I duno, I think Falcon is awsome. Yeah i know this is only post 2 for me but hey.... You just gotta play him. And there is no way he is the worst. Dont forget about GAME & WATCH! Besides, it's all about oppurtunity, and anyone can get beat as Cap'n Falcon when fighting a good player, such as Link, 'it's just all about sheilding at the right time and know when to attack!

 

[Metal_Dave]

everyone thinks he's bad because they're so used to their melee

captain falcon isn't a character you can just pick up and be professional with him really easily, like wolf/toon link/falco/snake et cetera, he's going to take a lot more practice. and that doesn't mean practicing him melee style, this is brawl

Wolf?! Wolf doesn't take practice lmao anyone can pick him up easily when all you need to do is laser, forward smash, and then eventually down smash. Too easy.

 

[VEC]

Don't worry, Falcon is AWESOME with his crappy knockback, crappy power, crappy priority, and crappy recovery.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I love all the haters... *gives them all bearhugs* Sooner or later, falcon will get his time in the spotlight, and thats when you'll all say you knew he had potential. JUST WAIT :D
lol.... *goes back to playing snake*

 

[goodoldganon]

Besides the low priority, mediocre KO potential, and poor approach game, Capt. Falcon also has one other hurdle to overcome. Tiers are based on tournament performance and right now I don't think very many people are using him in tourneys.

Brawl is much more balanced, so even if Falcon is the worst character he isn't next to unusable like some Melee characters were. I think Falcon will have the element of surprise on his side since no one really mains him since you can't spam the knee.

 

[VEC]

Ok, Falcon is Alright if you know how to play him, But he was high tier in both the other games, He deserved to be lowered, Well not high in Melee, Highest of Mid, Number 6 and SSB64 5

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I duno, I think Falcon is awsome. Yeah i know this is only post 2 for me but hey.... You just gotta play him. And there is no way he is the worst. Dont forget about GAME & WATCH! Besides, it's all about oppurtunity, and anyone can get beat as Cap'n Falcon when fighting a good player, such as Link, 'it's just all about sheilding at the right time and know when to attack!

Yeah, if you think Game & Watch isn't good you don't know much about this game.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Yeah, G&W is insane... Only downside, all his moves move at technically teh same rate. Good-side: Uhh, that rate of attack is FAST!

Falcon's good for taking somebody by surprise. Hes got an excellent pressure game, and his aerials are no slouches either. If your not careful, you could get meteored pretty quick.

 

[KeyKid19]

Game & Watch is a really strong character.

@ Metal Dave

Wolf was in the list of people that DON'T take skill to master according to the poster you quoted. He was saying that all of those people don't take skill, not that they do like Falcon does.

I highly disagree about Snake though. If you don't know exactly what you're doing with him I guarantee you that you'll get beat by a TON of people. He requires a lot of practice and skill to use effectively.

 

[The Executive]

I duno, I think Falcon is awsome. Yeah i know this is only post 2 for me but hey.... You just gotta play him. And there is no way he is the worst. Dont forget about GAME & WATCH! Besides, it's all about oppurtunity, and anyone can get beat as Cap'n Falcon when fighting a good player, such as Link, 'it's just all about sheilding at the right time and know when to attack!

*jumps on bandwagon*

I practically main G&W. His only negative attribute would be that nearly all attacks have the same speed. Unfortunately for every other character, that speed happened about two seconds ago. I.e., it's fast. That, plus he has buffed KO moves, excellent aerial mobility, mindgame potential, and can DI like it's nobody's business.

*falls off bandwagon*

 

[Sparx]

:[

This sucks.

After I choose to main Falcon, Nintendo goes and makes him all sh*tty. Good job, Sakurai.

Seriously, I mained Ganon in melee and owned peoples faces in with him; then I saw his new moveset and decided he was nerfed too bad, so I decided to go with Falcon. I thought he'd at least resemble the ownage he was in melee, but no. He ended up about the same speed as Ganon in melee (probably slower) with about half the damage and a quarter of the knockback.

I do hope that techniques arise that will help Falcon regain his status as mind rapist. I just miss seeing the crazy combo videos from melee that made me want to pick him up in the first place.

 

[Jester Kirby]

Everyone says C.Falcon is horrible...I never understood untill I read some of these posts. I don't use him really....guess I should try him some more. I think he is cool at least though.

 

[epic of DE]

I still try and use C.F. in brawl but its just far too often that when I play I just am outprioritized by a large cast of popular characters. Marth is perhaps the most difficult character for falcon to fight since it seems to me that almost all of marth's moves outprioritize falcon on both ground and air.

so I've come to this theory...

Sakurai obviously used marth in melee (Yah! I edgeguard master with d-tilt and F-smash) when out of nowhere somebody used falcon and combo'd the crap out of him. Completely unable to cope with the understanding of "combos" and "mind-games" when Sakurai was given the chance to work on Brawl he found his way of beating falcon...by giving the knee the hit-box of a new born baby's knee and declaring that marth doesn't need to combo as all airs and smashes kill.

 

[Zero%]

i think captain has been nerf alot but for me he is still fun to play ... but if you wanna main falcon go ahead like i always say is not the charather just the person behind the controller.

 

[reborn394]

I don't think he's that bad, honestly. You just gotta watch out when connecting the knees and certain moves due to the new physics in Brawl. I personally like the new Raptor Boost feature in the air and reverse Falcon Punch

 

[xxvic1ousxx]

I dont agree he has a quick meteor smash. good nair and fair. not to mention his reflector getting kick out and brought back by some unknown force witch is awesome. But in all seriousness you have to be good at falco to know how great he is. I myself am only defending my freind who uses only falco and kicks my rump everytime we face.

I think you're referring to Falco, they're talking aout Captain Falcon.

But yeah, some of things being said about CF have been, though funny, somewhat exaggerated. He probably isnt the best choice for compeitive play, but he can still be used fairly well in casuals.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Captain Falcon is a decent character.

He is outclassed in single aspects by several characters, but those mediocre single aspects together make a character that can hang with **** near everyone in the game. He can't pressure like Meta, but he has a good pressure game with tilts and well-spaced aerials. He sure as hell can't combo like Diddy or Lucario, but he has effective strings that can go from air to ground and back again. He can't camp, but he can float in and out of his opponent's effective striking range with stutter-steps and SH Airdodges into buffered attacks. He has effective kill shots in his aerials off-stage at around 120-130 and he has the tools to get opponents there quickly.

The thing that makes Falcon low tier is that he doesn't have anything that's crazy good anymore. He has the tools, but they aren't as flashy or imposing as other characters. He has a solid toolset that can make for a fun and rewarding character to play as: just like in Melee. The ****-tastic combos are gone, but the basic things that made Falcon good still remain.

 

[KeyKid19]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Captain Falcon is a decent character.

He is outclassed in single aspects by several characters, but those mediocre single aspects together make a character that can hang with **** near everyone in the game. He can't pressure like Meta, but he has a good pressure game with tilts and well-spaced aerials. He sure as hell can't combo like Diddy or Lucario, but he has effective strings that can go from air to ground and back again. He can't camp, but he can float in and out of his opponent's effective striking range with stutter-steps and SH Airdodges into buffered attacks. He has effective kill shots in his aerials off-stage at around 120-130 and he has the tools to get opponents there quickly.

The thing that makes Falcon low tier is that he doesn't have anything that's crazy good anymore. He has the tools, but they aren't as flashy or imposing as other characters. He has a solid toolset that can make for a fun and rewarding character to play as: just like in Melee. The ****-tastic combos are gone, but the basic things that made Falcon good still remain.

If Falcon had decent priority and a little less lag I'd agree with you. But he doesn't. The tier gaps are definitely smaller now though so I sort of see where you're coming from on the "can hang with **** near everyone in the game." Honestly it mainly comes down to player v. player and which player knows how to use the character they choose the best.

I like your optimism because I'm optimistic myself. I just wish that Falcon had one solid good attribute (besides running speed) that set him apart from other characters. The Knee was that in Melee and honestly it was probably a little over the top in terms of ease of use and power. Now that the knee and his epic Dair are gone though, he lacks much else. He needs something that he can utilize consistently (like a Melee Knee with less power or something). Changing the hitbox for the sweetspot was the dumbest move ever and I will never forgive Sakurai for that. But yeah he needs something decent to be considered a good character.

 

[Heroic]

To the OP: Captain Falcon is considered the worst only by those who do not truly bear falcon in their hearts.

To all those ranting on the so called nerfs on captain falcon: L2P

lolz

Seriously.

 

[SSMugen]

^ meh?

I love C.Falcon man but **** sakurai you nerfed him to all hell. I'm still gonna try to main him but Sakurai didn't make it easy with making all the newcomers over powered or having too many advantages *coughmetaknightcough* or nerfing characters who didn't need to be nerfed like Ganondorf and Good old C.Falcon here.

 

[Heroic]

Oh no, his Knee has a reduced hitbox now ! What are we gonna do?? Let's go on Smashboards and QQ about it, and then insult viciously anyone who disagrees!

Seriously, just L2P Falcon. Priority is much less of an issue in this game, since most of the time close quarter fights turn out to be players taking turns to attack, trying to do the right attack at the right moment so they don't get powershielded. It is like attack powershield then attack then powershield again.

It seems as of now, Snake is the character wich seems the most overpowered and that wins the most tournament. I honestly don't have much trouble winning against him with captain falcon or samus, you just need a few games to adjust. And I'm not playing against my little sister, but the best players in Canada.

Just learn a new way to play with falcon.

 

[epic of DE]

You know whats really funny? While the knee has been tweaked (I try not to say nerf) it is still useable and learning its placement is enjoyable. What bothered me with falcon in brawl is that his ability to create effective aggressive approaches are limited or nearly gone against some characters. It's very difficult to argue that brawl is a more defensive based game in the view of things as having a projectile provides both an effective way to inflict damage along with making your opponent have to approach you on your terms. Falcon had an impressive approach in melee because his dash speed was included when he jumped so he could cover great distances both on the ground and the air.

Perhaps in time fellow falcon users will develop a strategy against the large roster of high rank characters (marth, falco, snake) finding a good way to fight them is going to be an up-hill battle

 

[reborn394]

He isn't that bad. If anything, the only thing that got nerfed was his drop speed and his dair. Otherwise, C.Falcon maintains many of the aspects that made him a great character in Melee. I was giving him a test run this past Saturday against a Level 8 Pit (I try to have access to humans, but to no avail), and I found out that the knee's hitbox isn't really reduced; it's just that it's has bit harder to connect in Brawl due to the new physics (floating engine) of the game. The up b move is improved since it takes advantage of the new physics in Brawl (C. Falcon seems to go higher with the move now than before). The Raptor Boost is better (he bounces off the opponent in the air), and can be used to grab the edge now. Veteran C. Falcon players need to remember this though: since the game engine isn't like in melee, it's harder to chain his air attacks now. As a result, you'll have a slower captain falcon, albeit still useful.

 

[reborn394]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Captain Falcon is a decent character.

He is outclassed in single aspects by several characters, but those mediocre single aspects together make a character that can hang with **** near everyone in the game. He can't pressure like Meta, but he has a good pressure game with tilts and well-spaced aerials. He sure as hell can't combo like Diddy or Lucario, but he has effective strings that can go from air to ground and back again. He can't camp, but he can float in and out of his opponent's effective striking range with stutter-steps and SH Airdodges into buffered attacks. He has effective kill shots in his aerials off-stage at around 120-130 and he has the tools to get opponents there quickly.

The thing that makes Falcon low tier is that he doesn't have anything that's crazy good anymore. He has the tools, but they aren't as flashy or imposing as other characters. He has a solid toolset that can make for a fun and rewarding character to play as: just like in Melee. The ****-tastic combos are gone, but the basic things that made Falcon good still remain.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I strongly agree here.

 

[reborn394]

If Falcon had decent priority and a little less lag I'd agree with you. But he doesn't. The tier gaps are definitely smaller now though so I sort of see where you're coming from on the "can hang with **** near everyone in the game." Honestly it mainly comes down to player v. player and which player knows how to use the character they choose the best.

I like your optimism because I'm optimistic myself. I just wish that Falcon had one solid good attribute (besides running speed) that set him apart from other characters. The Knee was that in Melee and honestly it was probably a little over the top in terms of ease of use and power. Now that the knee and his epic Dair are gone though, he lacks much else. He needs something that he can utilize consistently (like a Melee Knee with less power or something). Changing the hitbox for the sweetspot was the dumbest move ever and I will never forgive Sakurai for that. But yeah he needs something decent to be considered a good character.

In my opinion, the knee has the same hitbox as before. The game physics just reduce the hitbox of the attack. If Sakurai did kept the sweetspot on the knee, then maybe this game wouldn't be balanced. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Tenki]

Just wondering if anyone taking part in this conversation DIDN'T use Falcon in Melee - like... rarely, if at all.

It's always interesting to see what a 'clean slate' player thinks of a character that supposedly gets nerfed, Ganondorf in mind.

I probably overused this example, but at the beginning of the Brawl Ganondorf game, you had people who still had his Melee form in mind and kept trying to play him like they did in Melee. Watch Pyrostormer's old videos to see what I mean: F-airs spammed like crazy (gives MAJOR landing lag), while new Ganondorf players avoided that move almost altogether, because it just seemed common sense not to spam it.

One of the questions I had in the Falcon playstyle survey thread is whether or not there are people here who didn't use him in Melee, to see if there are any differences in how they play (and maybe even what they think of Falcon).

 

[KeyKid19]

Rebord, the Knee's sweetspot frame count is proven to be lower, and the sweetspot window is soon than it was in Melee. Those two things make the Knee statistically harder to use effectively. End of story.

Also, how can you possibly think that the game would be unbalanced if the Knee was left alone when that would be only one solution to Falcon's long list of new flaws in Brawl? If anything keeping the Knee would arguably make him middle tier! Does that sound like a broken and unbalanced character to you?

How can you say that his only weakened areas are his drop speed and Dair? Besides, even if it were true that only those two things were weakened, those are MAJOR aspects of Falcon's game that aren't useable anymore. It used to be that if you got someone off the edge, you had a ridiculously high chance of killing them because you could Knee them easily OR Dair them easily in addition to the other aerials. Now all there is really is Uair and Bair in his edgeguard game. Definitely worse than before.

Falcon statistically is not much worse than in Melee, but the new physics engine enhances all of his flaws from Melee that you can gloss over through use of the Knee and Dair. Without those tools and also with the new physics engine, Falcon is wrecked. Think about it: what do you get when you take away Melee Falcon's comboability, Knee, Dair, air speed, FF speed, L-Canceling ability, and wavedashing ability? That's right, you get Brawl Falcon! No one else in Brawl that was also in Melee has that long of a list of lost tools.

 

[reborn394]

Rebord, the Knee's sweetspot frame count is proven to be lower, and the sweetspot window is soon than it was in Melee. Those two things make the Knee statistically harder to use effectively. End of story.

Also, how can you possibly think that the game would be unbalanced if the Knee was left alone when that would be only one solution to Falcon's long list of new flaws in Brawl? If anything keeping the Knee would arguably make him middle tier! Does that sound like a broken and unbalanced character to you?

How can you say that his only weakened areas are his drop speed and Dair? Besides, even if it were true that only those two things were weakened, those are MAJOR aspects of Falcon's game that aren't useable anymore. It used to be that if you got someone off the edge, you had a ridiculously high chance of killing them because you could Knee them easily OR Dair them easily in addition to the other aerials. Now all there is really is Uair and Bair in his edgeguard game. Definitely worse than before.

Falcon statistically is not much worse than in Melee, but the new physics engine enhances all of his flaws from Melee that you can gloss over through use of the Knee and Dair. Without those tools and also with the new physics engine, Falcon is wrecked. Think about it: what do you get when you take away Melee Falcon's comboability, Knee, Dair, air speed, FF speed, L-Canceling ability, and wavedashing ability? That's right, you get Brawl Falcon! No one else in Brawl that was also in Melee has that long of a list of lost tools.

I agree with you here, just that I got carried away on my last post. Sorry about that. It's just that the knee connects for me alot, that's all . I was also gonna add that Sakurai probably made Falcon like he is in Brawl due to the fact that he IS Capatain Falcon (Falcons are birds and birds aren't supposed to fall fast; they stay long in the air). But overall, your right; I wasn't backing up my argument with enough info. I forgot to mention all the techniques Falcon inplied in Melee (Such as Wavedashing, L-Canceling).

 

[IcantWin]

Just wondering if anyone taking part in this conversation DIDN'T use Falcon in Melee - like... rarely, if at all.

It's always interesting to see what a 'clean slate' player thinks of a character that supposedly gets nerfed, Ganondorf in mind.

I probably overused this example, but at the beginning of the Brawl Ganondorf game, you had people who still had his Melee form in mind and kept trying to play him like they did in Melee. Watch Pyrostormer's old videos to see what I mean: F-airs spammed like crazy (gives MAJOR landing lag), while new Ganondorf players avoided that move almost altogether, because it just seemed common sense not to spam it.

One of the questions I had in the Falcon playstyle survey thread is whether or not there are people here who didn't use him in Melee, to see if there are any differences in how they play (and maybe even what they think of Falcon).

With that in mind, I think (and hope) majority of the players engaged in this post have previously mained Falcon in Melee.

With that in mind, we have a community of ex-Falcons trying to bring the same play style back to Brawl that was utilized in Melee, which is giving us problems as his game is a whole new story. I've made this point in many a post, I've (with a very hard and sad time); have changed my Falcon play style to a less aggressive and more defensive/attentive/patient Falcon, which is proving to provide a very big helping hand to his new game.

On the other hand, we have a community of gamers who have never played Falcon, or who have never had the experience of playing Melee too much. Now they have an outlook that "Falcon Sucks," due to the fact that Falcons potential has been somewhat nerfed (in many regards) since Melee. Those who have had this in mind don't pick him because they've never had the pleasure of playing a competitive Falcon in Melee. But what can actually yield results are the ones who are open-minded enough to play Falcon despite all of the negative connotations attached with him will find a new play style that us Ex-Falcons are having a hard time to develop, therefor giving the new gaming community a positive reputation for giving us Ex-Rambos a new way to play our favorite.

Hope this outlook helped somewhat, I know once I get my capture card I'll help the Falcon community (the one I've been in for 7ish, 8 years now), in a very positive way.

GL FalconFriends

 

[goodoldganon]

Falcon would have been fine if they had made the knee easier to connect with. That way, it would be the move it was always meant to be, an aerial finisher. I don't think they intended the knee to be as spamable as it was in Melee, and they overcompensated for it in Brawl.

 

[MiraiGen]

It kind of seems like Falcon's cripples - his Knee especially - were all to make it so you had no choice but to set up for a Falcon Paunch.

Which seems kind of strange since Falcon Punch is really slow. But being fair, it was nearly useless in Melee.

 

[Reaver197]

All I can say is play Melee, and be happy.

 

[Tenki]

It kind of seems like Falcon's cripples - his Knee especially - were all to make it so you had no choice but to set up for a Falcon Paunch.

Which seems kind of strange since Falcon Punch is really slow. But being fair, it was nearly useless in Melee.

Eh, maybe it's cause I'm used to Ganondorf, or because I haven't played Melee in a long time (lol I lent it to a friend and moved out of state before I could get it back):

but Falcon Punch feels somewhat fast.

Mixing up B-reversal Falcon Punches and 180/360 Punches screw people up a bit, especially if you approach from the air.

One of the people I played probably dismissed Falcon as a serious character as well, and whenever he got him in Random, he'd use only Falcon Punches for the whole game, but he would mix up Turn-around and B-reversals, sometimes "missing" on purpose just to mindgame people into teching into them.

Sometimes, I'd walk in just to see him spamming Falcon Punch and he'd come in first place lol.

I tried messing around online and imitating his Falcon(punch) game, and I noticed I'd get people in 1v1 with the normal/b-reversed Falcon Punch, since it comes out alot quicker than the turn-around punch. Funny stuff ._.;

 

[IcantWin]

Falcon would have been fine if they had made the knee easier to connect with. That way, it would be the move it was always meant to be, an aerial finisher. I don't think they intended the knee to be as spamable as it was in Melee, and they overcompensated for it in Brawl.

At higher percents, B-Air is the new finisher (The River dance!!!), as can be his U-Air at certain numbers.

And of course, D-Air is feasible , along with Knee as long as you:
A: Approached carefully from above ((D-Air) Nipple spike will kill too.)
B: Used in a Setup/Juggle (Knee)

 

[Amide]

He doesn't have priority, has no projectiles, and knee make him, well not top tier material. That being said, it's insane that some people think he's better that Ganondorf.

Falcon=Power, very fast
Ganon=Lots of power, very slow


Falcon is actually good in the right hands, he's not that awful really.

 

[Tenki]

Oye, I have an idea, but it follows after the questions:

What is the biggest problem with Falcon right now, gamewise?
-Dealing damage?
-Avoiding damage?
-Dealing finishing hits?

If it's dealing damage, maybe you have to play a little more patiently, or find the right moves for the right situations. Maybe you're trying to do a combo/juggle but aren't taking time to plan for a "what if he dodges?" situation. Maybe you're trying to push your attack on someone else's attacks and just being outprioritized all the time.

If it's avoiding damage, well, I can't really say much about that. At least you're not too large of a target, and you can get away >_>

If it's landing finishing hits, and NOT the other two, then I have a suggestion.
Play them to a high damage.

While playing Sonic (after switching from Ike and Ganondorf LOL), I felt that it was dismal to not be able to KO at 100%, or 120% (in most cases). The moves that killed at 120% were kinda hard to get the position for. Heck, I got a Bowser to 200% while keeping under 100%.

Don't get hung up on that.

Keep pushing their damage, and eventually, more moves becomes kill moves. And who knows, while your opponent is waiting for weaker, lower knockback attacks, you can finish them (hopefully earlier, and not having to take an opponent to 230% just to throw him off the top of the level, like I did).

 

[KeyKid19]

I like your post, Tenki. I have to say that I get pretty flustered when I still can't kill my opponent at 180%. I guess I just need to learn to deal with it. You have to play really well to win though when you kill at 220% and your opponent kills you at 140%.

 

[Tenki]

I like your post, Tenki. I have to say that I get pretty flustered when I still can't kill my opponent at 180%. I guess I just need to learn to deal with it. You have to play really well to win though when you kill at 220% and your opponent kills you at 140%.

Well, look at it this way. I'll describe it from the Sonic point of view but hopefully it might be similar for Falcon, who's somewhat similar in speed.

Sonic gets killed at around 80-110% by a good hit. His best killing hits can go from the center of FD starting at around 110-120%. The rest of his moves start to kill people at around 140-170% - but at the edge of Final Destination. His best moves are much slower, easier to predict, and harder to place than his other kill options (...that don't include gimping). If I were to try to just spam kill moves, and wasn't able to unnerve my opponent, then I'd get punished or dodged. But overall, since he has 3 good kill moves (b-air, f-smash, d-smash), I'd be too predictable to try to place myself in the position to get those moves, especially if the opponent is aware of it.

I end most games having to take people to 140-150%. And then there's the rare case where it's too hard to land the KO move so I have to take them to an obscene % (200-230) for a showy (and unstoppable) U-throw death off the top of the level.

But here's my consolation.

It's generally easier for me to take an opponent to 150% than it is for him to get me to 100%.

If it's the same for Falcon, I might go and test his kill%s for you, like I did for Sonic

 

[KeyKid19]

Yeah I was actually thinking of making a Kill % thread. It would be convenient.

 

[Iwan]

Yeah I was actually thinking of making a Kill % thread. It would be convenient.

It'd be very convenient. I think none of the regular falcon users here have troubles dealing damage. In fact i'd say Falcon does a pretty good job of that if you play him right.

It's the finishing aspect, for me at least. Like Key said, i regularly play people to above 150 percent. Not all the time, but it happens enough (which is too much ).