Can anyone tell me why Falcon is considered the worst?

[Nintendude92z]

Please, don't take that from me, I personally like Falcon.

But on the offical tier discussion and other boards, he's always being called bottom tier, even less then Ganondorf.

I realize his nerfing since melee, but is it really that bad?

 

[Neo M.J]

I never mained Falcon before, but I do know that his knee is very hard to land now.

 

[Muad'Dib]

Falcon has low priority and range, so his Melee game relied on speed and combos. With increased knock back and the inability to combo (or do anything for that matter) out of throws makes it very hard to compete with Falcon. You can't combo into knees like you could it Melee so it's hard to kill. All you can do it hit and run with low priority moves.

 

[xxvic1ousxx]

Falcon suffers from most of the physics changes in Brawl as with some of the other returning Smashers. Unfortunately, these effects for the most part are all negative. Falcon lost one of his most important capabilities, comboing into his kill moves(ie. ariel checking into his knee finisher.) His metagame, like some characters, was to abuse his speed and pressure opponents into slipping into his combos. And since some of the game mechanics used for his metagame have been either altered or removed altogether, most SSBM players see him as useless.

 

[abit_rusty]

He's not the worst, but he's down there. Buffed b-moves hardly make up for his loss of combo potential.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

He's a solid character, but he has to work a lot to do what the high and top tiers do effortlessly. A lot of his move properties have been changed thanks to the new physics, and the knee is much harder to land. You have to play him like pros had to in Melee: mindgames out the arse in order to get something going.

 

[KeyKid19]

No range + No priority + Slow attacks + Laggy attacks = low tier.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

No range + No priority + Slow attacks + Laggy attacks = low tier.

^ This although i still believe he can make it to the bottom of mid tier.

 

[Astinos]

Overall he's a pretty crappy character, his approach moves have low priority and are easily punished, and his finishing moves aren't too easy to land. He can't be played as aggresively and needs to camp in quite a few situations, most people don't enjoy playing like that so they just give up.

Personally I think Falcon can be used aggressively, it just needs the right skill level and mindgames.

 

[HOHO420]

Wow, all this bashing on Falcon. He's not a bad character, you just have to get use to him. His back air is still sweet. You can also juggle people with his uair and finish off with a bair. I like him personally, he's been nerfed but still a good character nonetheless. Who cares about tiers, pichu was bottom of the bottom of the tier list and people still rocked other people with him. It all depends how you play. Falcon is not a bad character, just different from melee.

 

[Nintendude92z]

Very insightful, I always thought the knock back of his aerial moves would be a good thing, but not being able to combo into his head-line finishers is too much. I still don't see him as the worst, but now I can see the logic behind the statement. Juggling and spiking is still all-right.. All of the above helped, thank you all.

 

[MiraiGen]

Just an FYI? You have an "i" in front of the URL for your signature.

Anyway.

Yeah when I got excited about the physics changes to Smash Bros I knew some people would end up suffering. Cap was one of them. You can't hit his Knee when you're near the ground without completely broadcasting your intent, and aerial Knees take lots of mindgaming.

Him and Samus got some work cut out for them.

 

[Maikeru17]

Falcon's not THAT bad.
Proper spacing and patience is what wins the match with Falcon.

I've learned that poking with ftilt, abusing uair, and using the utilt smartly a very, very effective ways for playing Falcon.
And of course, managing to learn the timing of the knee sweet-spot and effectively mind gaming into it being used is very important.

Falcon's still a character that can contend well (though, I personally feel he's very bad against small characters), especially with his quite amazing recovery.
I've lived to 200+ percents with good DI and smart choices on recovering.
Falcon needs a lot of practice, a lot of patience, and a lot of good ol' support from his beloved mainers.

-Nox`

 

[ReploidArmada]

Falcon's not THAT bad.
Proper spacing and patience is what wins the match with Falcon.

I've learned that poking with ftilt, abusing uair, and using the utilt smartly a very, very effective ways for playing Falcon.
And of course, managing to learn the timing of the knee sweet-spot and effectively mind gaming into it being used is very important.

Falcon's still a character that can contend well (though, I personally feel he's very bad against small characters), especially with his quite amazing recovery.
I've lived to 200+ percents with good DI and smart choices on recovering.
Falcon needs a lot of practice, a lot of patience, and a lot of good ol' support from his beloved mainers.

-Nox`

I agree wholeheartedly. Learning to use Falcon competitively will definitely be a challenge - as I'm sure it was for Melee - but if enough people care about him enough to learn how to play his Brawl incarnation well, then I'm sure he'll start gaining some respect. Not as much as Toon Link or Ike certainly, but enough to move him far beyond Pichu.

 

[KeyKid19]

Wow, all this bashing on Falcon. He's not a bad character, you just have to get use to him. His back air is still sweet. You can also juggle people with his uair and finish off with a bair. I like him personally, he's been nerfed but still a good character nonetheless. Who cares about tiers, pichu was bottom of the bottom of the tier list and people still rocked other people with him. It all depends how you play. Falcon is not a bad character, just different from melee.

He is bad, and it's not due to a lack of use that I say that. I've played nearly 1000 matches with Falcon so far and there are still MANY tactics that characters can use to just demolish him no matter what you do. Falcon simply cannot beat certain characters when they are used by great players.

He is a blast to play, but he's bad. Not bottom tier bad, but bad enough.

 

[Runeblade279]

Falcon's not THAT bad.
Proper spacing and patience is what wins the match with Falcon.

I've learned that poking with ftilt, abusing uair, and using the utilt smartly a very, very effective ways for playing Falcon.
And of course, managing to learn the timing of the knee sweet-spot and effectively mind gaming into it being used is very important.

Falcon's still a character that can contend well (though, I personally feel he's very bad against small characters), especially with his quite amazing recovery.
I've lived to 200+ percents with good DI and smart choices on recovering.
Falcon needs a lot of practice, a lot of patience, and a lot of good ol' support from his beloved mainers.

-Nox`

Agreed.

As for Keykid's post, I haven't been owned enough to say that he's -bad-, but he definitely has an extreme uphill battle against certain characters.

Low tier? Definitely. Do I care about tiers? Not really.

 

[Metal_Dave]

The best thing about falcon: His taunts.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wow, all this bashing on Falcon. He's not a bad character, you just have to get use to him. His back air is still sweet. You can also juggle people with his uair and finish off with a bair. I like him personally, he's been nerfed but still a good character nonetheless. Who cares about tiers, pichu was bottom of the bottom of the tier list and people still rocked other people with him. It all depends how you play. Falcon is not a bad character, just different from melee.

Captain Falcon is WORSE than both Pichu and Mewtwo.

You see, both Pichu and Mewtwo could combo to some extent. They also had some level of decent kill options and priority. Falcon has none of these advantages.

What Captain Falcon is: A character that can neither combo, approach, grab, or land kill moves.

Ganondorf both combos and kills more effectively than Captain Falcon. People say he's the worst, when he's actually better than Captain Falcon. This is why Captain Falcon is the worst character in the game. Ganondorf barely manages to squeak into second place for that position.

Okay now seriously, if you don't believe me, let's look at something Ganondorf has that Falcon doesn't. The Forward B.

This attack is literally a long range grab. This gives Ganondorf an infinitely more effective approach game than Falcon. This attack doesn't suffer dumb ending lag if he misses, unlike Falcon's. BETTER YET, this is the reason why Ganondorf combos so much better than Falcon. This attack leads to guaranteed Jabs and I think D-tilts. And mind you, BOTH of those attacks can kill.

Now let's see, everyone would agree Falcon's F-tilt has decent speed. Ganondorf's is about as fast, but ten times stronger in terms of knockback. It also has more range and priority. It sends people at a very low trajectory too. This kill move >>> Falcon.

Ganondorf's Smashes are about the same speed as Falcon's, but have more range and knockback. Neither will land these often, but Ganondorf will kill much more often with these ones.

Falcon can autocancel D-airs. So can Ganondorf. Who has the better D-air? Ganondorf. His D-air is 100000000 times better. It kills off the top at 120%, or it is an unrecoverable spike.

Ganondorf also has a stage with which he can counterpick at. Brinstar. Falcon doesn't have this kind of advantage. Both are absolutely horrible, so they will lose on neutral stages. When it is time to counterpick, Ganondorf will always win on Brinstar. Falcon however will never win.

Both suck. Ganondorf clearly sucks less.

 

[J4pu]

my favorite part about this thread was that somebody stood up for falcon by saying he was as good as pichu in melee, that's like saying "I'm pretty smart, at least as smart as a goldfish."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I know. It's sad huh? The physics engine so completely destroys Falcon he's worse than the previous bottom tiers from Melee.

 

[Ayato]

The best thing about falcon: His taunts.

True in the previous game to some point. It may be argued that his knee was better.

Falcon's not the worst, just bad. Really bad. Big whoop.

 

[Reaver197]

I think making analogies between the bottom tiers of Melee and the perceived bottom tiers of Brawl is a flawed endeavour. They have different mechanics that require and expect different things from their respective characters list. Such comparisons are inherently vague and confusing.

But, nonetheless, in consideration of Falcon in comparison to other Brawl characters, he doesn't have any clear, defined strength that another character doesn't have, if not in an even better incarnation.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In SSBM, the focus to winning was sorta like comboing and ledgeguarding. Which both Mewtwo and Pichu could partake in to some extent. These two characters were in fact difficult to ledgeguard.

In Brawl, the focus is more like being able to grab consistently, and being able to hit your opponent hard consistently. Which Falcon can't do. )=

Hence why I emphasize he has it much worse than the previous bottom tiers in Melee.

 

[Lag]

a big nerf on captain falcon was his knee. big ouch. really big.

 

[milkieee]

I played CF in brawl yesterday and I have to say, god**** he really sucks !
Does the knee have any knockback ?!
(I landed it many times don't know 16%~19% demage or sth. like that)

I think CF is a char that truely doesn't had to be nerved and whats the deal ? make him worst char ever, thank you nintendo ! Oo

 

[A2ZOMG]

a big nerf on captain falcon was his knee. big ouch. really big.

JUST THE KNEE?

Look more towards the D-air which led into almost everything back in Melee.

Also the grab range. It sucks.

 

[Reaver197]

I always found it ******** that they could never animate Falcon reaching out the FULL LENGTH OF HIS ARM to grab, instead of this little, curl arm thing he does, essentially half to a third of what it could be. Though, if he did have double the grab length in Melee, that would probably be a little too ridiculous, but in Brawl, since throws hardly matter to the extent they used to, why is it so short?

Eh, anyway, tl:dr, monkeys designed Falcon's grab length.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You know what's dumb?

They took away all his strength's due to the Brawl engine then left all of his old weaknesses except his recovery.

They didn't fix his horrible priority or his terrible grab range. They actually nerfed his bair and his nair.

WTF were they thinking?

 

[KeyKid19]

Captain Falcon is WORSE than both Pichu and Mewtwo.

You see, both Pichu and Mewtwo could combo to some extent. They also had some level of decent kill options and priority. Falcon has none of these advantages.

What Captain Falcon is: A character that can neither combo, approach, grab, or land kill moves.

Ganondorf both combos and kills more effectively than Captain Falcon. People say he's the worst, when he's actually better than Captain Falcon. This is why Captain Falcon is the worst character in the game. Ganondorf barely manages to squeak into second place for that position.

Okay now seriously, if you don't believe me, let's look at something Ganondorf has that Falcon doesn't. The Forward B.

This attack is literally a long range grab. This gives Ganondorf an infinitely more effective approach game than Falcon. This attack doesn't suffer dumb ending lag if he misses, unlike Falcon's. BETTER YET, this is the reason why Ganondorf combos so much better than Falcon. This attack leads to guaranteed Jabs and I think D-tilts. And mind you, BOTH of those attacks can kill.

Now let's see, everyone would agree Falcon's F-tilt has decent speed. Ganondorf's is about as fast, but ten times stronger in terms of knockback. It also has more range and priority. It sends people at a very low trajectory too. This kill move >>> Falcon.

Ganondorf's Smashes are about the same speed as Falcon's, but have more range and knockback. Neither will land these often, but Ganondorf will kill much more often with these ones.

Falcon can autocancel D-airs. So can Ganondorf. Who has the better D-air? Ganondorf. His D-air is 100000000 times better. It kills off the top at 120%, or it is an unrecoverable spike.

Ganondorf also has a stage with which he can counterpick at. Brinstar. Falcon doesn't have this kind of advantage. Both are absolutely horrible, so they will lose on neutral stages. When it is time to counterpick, Ganondorf will always win on Brinstar. Falcon however will never win.

Both suck. Ganondorf clearly sucks less.

Ganondorf's recovery is abysmal. He is the most easily killed character in Brawl hands down. He is by far the worst character simply because of that. None of those technical details you always unveil in your "Ganondorf >>> Falcon" monologues matter when one character can jump and the other can't. If you get Ganondorf off the stage I would estimate that you have a 50% chance of being able to kill him no matter the %s. He is seriously that bad at recovering.

If he could jump and recover as well as Falcon, he would be a better character. But he can't and that's what makes him worse. Ganondorf has all of the problems of Falcon but also can't recover. Also his Side-B is overrated. Who cares if you get hit by a jab after it? The benefit of the jab is so small yet you always make it seem like it's the greatest thing ever. "Oh Ganondorf has one combo that does almost nothing and NEVER kills. That must mean he's better than Falcon!" No.

Falcon isn't much better than Ganondorf, but he IS better. And I am confident that the Back Room will agree with me when they publish their first tier list.

 

[KeyKid19]

JUST THE KNEE?

Look more towards the D-air which led into almost everything back in Melee.

Also the grab range. It sucks.

I agree wholeheartedly here. Knee + Dair = equal ner***e. Both were essential in Melee and both were trashed in Brawl. Both are still useable and useful, but neither can be considered a good move.

 

[gammonwalker]

1. Captain Falcon is scrap.
2. Just because he is on the character select does not mean he is a viable option to be used in combat.
3. The ability to pick Captain Falcon to PLAY the game is an illusion. He is available so that your 7 year old sister will have a chance beating you when she picks Zelda.
4. He is not playable. He was meant to be a funny image on the select screen, so that when you look at him you laugh. The joke gets even funnier when you actually see him in a match and he is getting ***** sideways by an Italian dwarf, a man with a tiara, and woodland animals.
5. You think you're ready to engage in competitive play? He is the bully taking all your quarters after your mommy dropped you off at the arcade.
6. You think he is fun? When I play Captain Falcon I feel like I am doing my highschool math homework all over again.
7. Falcon kick is a safer option to deal damage than most of his attacks on average. YAY!
8. When a character's JUMP feels like it lags, you don't need to talk about the other issues.
9. Captain Falcon is available on the select screen to weed out people who already don't know what they're doing, PICKING CAPTAIN FALCON.
10. He plays like an old man in a really fast wheelchair.

There is no single other character in the game who could possibly be worse side from Ganon.

 

[Reaver197]

lol, Let's not go overboard here. Falcon's playable, but just realize he has probably the fewest things going for him out of all the other characters.

 

[apmpnmdslkbk]

I dont agree he has a quick meteor smash. good nair and fair. not to mention his reflector getting kick out and brought back by some unknown force witch is awesome. But in all seriousness you have to be good at falco to know how great he is. I myself am only defending my freind who uses only falco and kicks my rump everytime we face.

 

[GodotAA]

If Captain Falcon had at least some priority on any of his attacks he would be mid tier.

thats all i have to say.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ganondorf's recovery is abysmal. He is the most easily killed character in Brawl hands down. He is by far the worst character simply because of that. None of those technical details you always unveil in your "Ganondorf >>> Falcon" monologues matter when one character can jump and the other can't. If you get Ganondorf off the stage I would estimate that you have a 50% chance of being able to kill him no matter the %s. He is seriously that bad at recovering.

If he could jump and recover as well as Falcon, he would be a better character. But he can't and that's what makes him worse. Ganondorf has all of the problems of Falcon but also can't recover. Also his Side-B is overrated. Who cares if you get hit by a jab after it? The benefit of the jab is so small yet you always make it seem like it's the greatest thing ever. "Oh Ganondorf has one combo that does almost nothing and NEVER kills. That must mean he's better than Falcon!" No.

Falcon isn't much better than Ganondorf, but he IS better. And I am confident that the Back Room will agree with me when they publish their first tier list.

But there's no point having a good recovery when you can't do anything else effectively, is there?

At least a very defensive Ganondorf can tank it to some extent, and actually has viable KO options for the most part.

And Ganon's recovery is not nearly as bad as Olimar's.

 

[GodotAA]

I agree with NESSBOUNDER, but i actually think that both are on the same level according to tiers. Sacrifice Ganon's power for speed and you get Captain Failcon. But as a person who loves to play Falcon I disagree with people that he TOTALLY sucks. I've found ways to space good with his down tilt. His stutter step is pretty good. And he has a good tech chase with his down throw. But I'm not delusional saying Falcon is a good character. He still is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf's recovery is abysmal. He is the most easily killed character in Brawl hands down. He is by far the worst character simply because of that. None of those technical details you always unveil in your "Ganondorf >>> Falcon" monologues matter when one character can jump and the other can't. If you get Ganondorf off the stage I would estimate that you have a 50% chance of being able to kill him no matter the %s. He is seriously that bad at recovering.

LOL Ivysaur. Also Olimar.

Then there was Melee Falco lol.

Anyhow if anyone is forced to approach Ganon, he can SHD-air people to death, while Falcon can't because his D-air doesn't own.

BTW, Ganondorf outranges a ton of characters with Jabs and F-tilts. Neither character is good at approaching, so who does better when they are approached? Ganondorf, because he can do damage and push people away much better. Ganondorf anyhow approaches better, and chances are both will be forced to approach considering how many projectile spammers are getting up on the tiers.

If he could jump and recover as well as Falcon, he would be a better character. But he can't and that's what makes him worse. Ganondorf has all of the problems of Falcon but also can't recover. Also his Side-B is overrated. Who cares if you get hit by a jab after it? The benefit of the jab is so small yet you always make it seem like it's the greatest thing ever. "Oh Ganondorf has one combo that does almost nothing and NEVER kills. That must mean he's better than Falcon!" No.

Falcon doesn't recover much better than Ganondorf... He'll get gimped nearly as often as Ganondorf.

Ganondorf can jump. WTF are you getting at? As I told you, he can SHD-air people to death. Falcon can't. And both characters do it laglessly in case you forgot. Also Ganondorf has a U-air, equally good as if not better than Falcon's (better because it kills at lower percents and comes out just as fast)

Anyhow, Ganondorf actually has combos, priority, and kill strength. PLUS, he has grab range with his Forward B. The Jab KILLS (abeit at like 150%, but that is REALLY good for a Jab, and if it gets someone off the stage, then Spike them with your D-air). I'm also pretty sure you can D-tilt people after a Forward B, and that too can kill, and vertically.

Falcon isn't much better than Ganondorf, but he IS better. And I am confident that the Back Room will agree with me when they publish their first tier list.

LOL, to make matters worse for Falcon, he can't counterpick because he doesn't have any good stage advantages. However Ganondorf can counterpick Brinstar because his Forward B is hax there. That alone should place him higher on the tiers.

 

[Tenki]

Ganondorf's recovery is abysmal. He is the most easily killed character in Brawl hands down. He is by far the worst character simply because of that. None of those technical details you always unveil in your "Ganondorf >>> Falcon" monologues matter when one character can jump and the other can't. If you get Ganondorf off the stage I would estimate that you have a 50% chance of being able to kill him no matter the %s. He is seriously that bad at recovering.

If he could jump and recover as well as Falcon, he would be a better character. But he can't and that's what makes him worse. Ganondorf has all of the problems of Falcon but also can't recover. Also his Side-B is overrated. Who cares if you get hit by a jab after it? The benefit of the jab is so small yet you always make it seem like it's the greatest thing ever. "Oh Ganondorf has one combo that does almost nothing and NEVER kills. That must mean he's better than Falcon!" No.

Falcon isn't much better than Ganondorf, but he IS better. And I am confident that the Back Room will agree with me when they publish their first tier list.

=/ I had the feeling that Ganondorf's Up-B covers a surprising amount of vertical space. I rarely ever get to do the full Up-B because it usually sweetspots the edge first. His horizontal speed blows, but the height kinda makes up for it, at least from what I've seen.

His forward B can link into a standing d-tilt (which can hit most, if not all characters before they can roll), which can lead into an aerial combo, etc. The forward-B to jab combo doesn't work on all characters, and does poorer damage, and besides its horizontal knockback, it's an outdated move. I've killed... with both the d-tilt and the jab coming out of that move. Make do with what you have and you might find something useful :/

._.; lol I'm going around SB trying to learn characters that people say suck (went from Link to Ganondorf, and currently, Sonic). I'm gonna try Falcon next week. Aside from Link's item-spam-shield, Ganondorf and Sonic just don't play like the majority of the other characters, and those little nuances push their learning curves a bit.

Now I won't go around saying one character's definitely better than another, but they should all have something that they excel in. Sonic's punishment and off-map game seem to be his strength, and punishing floored opponents/techchasing seems t be Ganondorf's forte.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude.

Ganon's jab, F-tilt and D-tilt jave range that rival Marth's.

His U-smash and d-tilt have IASA frames so it's easy to build a wall with them and attack quickly. His U-smash ahs deceptive range since the hitbox is disjointed and extends a bit beyond what it looks like. Also his F-tilt and d-tilt hitboxes extenda bit beyond his foot.

Gerudo Dragon (side b) is awesomesauce and there is no need to go into any further. Also Ganon's Nair > CF's Nair. For real.

Ganon is way better then CF. Ganon actually has good priority too and attacks pretty fast on his good moves.

 

[shadenexus18]

I only struggle winning with Falcon when I'm battling online because of the lag.

Even though Falcon's been toned down a bit, but he certainly isn't bottom/low tier. I'm still capable of linking up combos if I pick my spots and have the utmost patience.

Still, I miss getting off the Knee of Justice so easily...