Can anyone tell me why Falcon is considered the worst?

[KeyKid19]

Indeed. He does damage fine, but you're never going to kill with an AAA combo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oye, I have an idea, but it follows after the questions:

What is the biggest problem with Falcon right now, gamewise?

-Dealing finishing hits

Captain Falcon has next to no kill options srsly.

Your best one is the B-air, but it just doesn't have enough of a hitbox. Next would probably be the Falcon Dive, but that is punishable if you miss. Your U-air has a good hitbox, but kills at really high percents. Your Smashes are slower than average. The U-tilt has moderate power, and is fairly slow (but at least it has range and priority). The Knee is situational as hell, so try your best techchasing into one.

So yeah, basically all of Falcon's kill options are situational to the extreme. Any bright ideas about them?

Yeah, and I suggested a while ago that we actually not just list the damage of Falcon's attacks, but also the kill percents. Knowing kill percents of your reliable attacks IMO is very critical for Falcon.

 

[Tenki]

Weight and Adapting to it
Most of these setups will require your opponent to be at a certain %. Of course, 100% on a Mario isn't the same as 100% on a Bowser, so you have to adjust the requirements based on character weight. These are decent estimations of how much to add/subtract from the requirements, so you have an idea of when certain moves will or will not work.

[-10%] Lightweight: Pikachu/Kirby/Ness/Lucas/Mario...
[+0%] Middleweight : Falco/Fox/Marth...
[+10%] Upper-Middleweight : Ganondorf/Snake...
[+20%] Heavyweight : Dedede/Ike/Bowser...

etc.
Jigglypuff seems to be much lighter than even the other lightweights, so let's assume she has a -20% modifier.

Basic kill move/information
Unless otherwise stated, from the center of Final Destination, with no stale-move effect, no attack-charging:

Damage is first given without DI, and with DI, if applicable.
* means that opposite DI has no effect.

Fsmash : 110% [130% with full DI]
Dsmash (first hit): 120% [140% with full DI]
Usmash (last hit): 170% [180% with full DI]
U-tilt : 160% [170% with down DI]
B-air(sweet spot) at 120% [150% with full DI]
U-air from full hop: 170% [180% with full DI]
U-air from double jump: 150% [160% with full DI
U-air from top of level (double jump + spring): 90% [100% with full DI]
U-throw (FD height): 190-200%*


From the edge of Final Destination:
D-air sweetspot(Aerial): 170% [180% with full DI]
B-throw: 160-170% [185% with full DI]
F-air (Final hit/"head" sweet spot): 170% (sweetspot) [200% with full DI]
N-air: 140% (first hit) [150% with full DI]
Homing Attack (person standing on edge): 170-180% [185% with full DI]

Something like that? ..but for Falcon?

._.; it was alot of work and atm I don't have too much of an idea of which moves to test.

But hey, if someone more familiar with Falcon can do it, go ahead, KeyKid.
btw i tested those on a Marth lul

 

[Iwan]

Something like that? ..but for Falcon?

._.; it was alot of work and atm I don't have too much of an idea of which moves to test.

But hey, if someone more familiar with Falcon can do it, go ahead, KeyKid.
btw i tested those on a Marth lul

hahahaha....i love how you volunteered Keykid....voluntarily. LOL.

I'm busy as hell this weekend...you get home from college and every friend you've ever had wants to hang out with you lol. It's crazy. After sunday i could do a lot of this "KO percent" thread, i could just do it all night sunday since im pretty sure i have NOTHING going on then. If someone beats me to it then by all means, beat me to it.

Keykid.

hahahaha. (totally kidding key )

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I could find em without DI... i don't have a partner *or a competent one at least...*

 

[BananaTrooper]

-Dealing finishing hits

Captain Falcon has next to no kill options srsly.

Your best one is the B-air, but it just doesn't have enough of a hitbox. Next would probably be the Falcon Dive, but that is punishable if you miss. Your U-air has a good hitbox, but kills at really high percents. Your Smashes are slower than average. The U-tilt has moderate power, and is fairly slow (but at least it has range and priority). The Knee is situational as hell, so try your best techchasing into one.

So yeah, basically all of Falcon's kill options are situational to the extreme. Any bright ideas about them?

Yeah, and I suggested a while ago that we actually not just list the damage of Falcon's attacks, but also the kill percents. Knowing kill percents of your reliable attacks IMO is very critical for Falcon.

Kill moves are toughies for falcon. I think, however, that you underestimate some of falcon's smash hits. While not obscenely fast, the fmash can land KOs for you, as well as the dsmash. I think the trick is to mindgame them into it; you can use some smashes in a "non-punishable" situation, to get your opponent accustomed to the timing of it. Once youve done that, I think you can land a few hits when you mix up their timing by charging it for a bit. It's actually surprising how many people will blindly try and dash-grab you when you just sit and charge a smash. Now, obviously you dont wanna spam these (granted, I'm guilty of this on a few occasions when I'm tired), theyll never hit if you do.

Utilt may not be too great of a kill move, but it can lead to uairs/dives. I'm pretty sure uairs kill at respectable %s, as long as you "sweetspot" the hit (best place to connect is tip of his foot). At mid 100s though, utilt should also be an option.

But agreed, falcon has some of the worst kill options in the game (sonic is king).

 

[Tenki]

I could find em without DI... i don't have a partner *or a competent one at least...*

if you have 2 controllers, set it to 1/4 speed on FD. right before the attack hits, start the DI on the 2nd controller

 

[KeyKid19]

lol Wouldn't it just be easier to hold the DI with your elbow/foot/something so that they are walking and then you just whack them? I dunno. lol 1/4 speed would take forever though.

Oh and don't worry about the "hints" guys. lol I'll do it. I'm actually free today until like 8-ish so I might be able to get this done partially at least.

 

[Tenki]

lol Wouldn't it just be easier to hold the DI with your elbow/foot/something so that they are walking and then you just whack them? I dunno. lol 1/4 speed would take forever though.

I wanted to test from the center of FD. To avoid misplacement like walking too far or whatever, I did that. I only did 1/4 speed it to test DI for smashes/tilts.

The moves with lesser, but significant knockback, like edgeguarding moves or horizontal throws should be tested near the edge, since that's where they're best used for surefire KO's. For Sonic, those moves were his d-air sweetspot, n-air, and b-throw, among others.

note:
Also make sure that you're doing DI before the attack hits. You don't want to do it too late and feel like there's no DI effect at all (like I did when I first had the list for like.. half the moves). In the end, Sonic's U-throw was the only one with pretty much no DI effect.

 

[KeyKid19]

Gotcha. I'll try and start on the list soon.

 

[GetSmashedWithTheBros]

have you used yoshi?

 

[Tenki]

*jump mode

F-air (Knee of Justice): 90%. trivial note: 100-110% kills across the stage (goes from left edge to right KO wall) with no DI and no stale move effect.
*D-air (

Spoiler

Nipple Launch..?

): 120% (!!?? kills off the side! LOL)
*B-air (immediate impact, person inside biceps): 130%

*Up-B kills from the edge at 130%!!

please tell me I'm not the first person to try to purposefully use d-air to kill in such a stupid non-spike way. that move is so ridiculous.

also, i'd like to repeat that up-B is amazing.

Also, as a Sonic player, I'm jealous of your nipple launch, boot spike, and that you have a "homing spike" as a recovery (side B going from off stage to stage).

o_O

 

[Deleted member]

Because falcon is the worst. U can do everything u want to make him better, and he is usable (i lost to a really goood cfalcon in a tourney in brawl =( ) captain falcon is still worse than every other character.

 

[KeyKid19]

Because falcon is the worst. U can do everything u want to make him better, and he is usable (i lost to a really goood cfalcon in a tourney in brawl =( ) captain falcon is still worse than every other character.

Because I'm sure you've studied every character SO thoroughly and observed so many tourney results to validate your statement.

Oh wait, you haven't. Leave worst character for the BRoomers to decide please.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Because falcon is the worst. U can do everything u want to make him better, and he is usable (i lost to a really goood cfalcon in a tourney in brawl =( ) captain falcon is still worse than every other character.

How do you know falcon is the worst? No tier list is out yet. Have you thoroughly checked every character and based this off of tourney results? I dont know, but i dont think you did. Many people would agree with your statement anyway but still leave that stuff for the back roomers to decide.

 

[shal]

doesnt matter about the tier list atm, because falco's moves arent as good as it was. The knee is the worst and hes like all crazy. The best thing they did for him was making the falcon pounch turn left or right and his di skills.

 

[KeyKid19]

doesnt matter about the tier list atm, because falco's moves arent as good as it was. The knee is the worst and hes like all crazy. The best thing they did for him was making the falcon pounch turn left or right and his di skills.

The best thing they did for him was make his recovery broken compared to how it was in Melee. Part of that is because they actually made Raptor Boost usable in the air. That's the best part about Brawl Falcon. The Punch turnaround is really nothing to get excited about. Sure it's fun in party matches and against idiots, but really it adds nothing in the grand 1v1 scheme. His DI out of his UpB is nice but other than that his DI is not that great. Not being able to FF to the same extent as in Melee is killer. Plus the fact that he doesn't carry air speed anymore either. Honestly his DI was overall better in Melee imo.

 

[storm92]

He just got nerfed badly from his combo ability in Melee.
It's pretty easy to see with measuring out the pros and cons.

Pros
- Extremely fast dash
- Smashes are very powerful
- Knee of Justice is one of the best aerial finishers in the game
- Can do very small combos (such as SideB-->Uair)
- Good vertical recovery, decent horizontal
- Some attacks come out quick (i.e. The Gentleman)
- Has a meteor

Cons
- Lag on most moves overall
- Smashes hard to land
- Knee hard to sweetspot
- SideB, which commonly starts small combos, has bad ending lag
- Terrible grab range
- Cannot chain throw well
- Several moves are hard to use in competitive play (Falcon Punch/Kick)
- No range with moves
- No projectile or way to stop camping well
- Outclassed by many characters and hard to use against "top tiers"

The cons not only outnumber the pros, but several of them are much worse than are the strengths of him.
Don't get me wrong though, he's still fun to play as, just nerfed badly.

 

[The Idealist]

this topic makes me sad as there is so much evidence against him. but don't worry guys, there's still hope he'll end up above ganondorf in the tier lists

I never plan on attending a tourney, but I like trying to improve (it never happens). I only play Brawl wit mah fraynds, and I use Captain Falcon a lot because he is so much fun.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I used to enjoy Falcon back in Melee, but he's not fun at all in Brawl for a few reasons. Heck, he's worse than Ganondorf now.

*He can no longer spam those grabs and throws of his; dash grab is nerfed.

*F-air no longer has a good sweetspot.

*D-air doesn't always send foes falling downwards.

*Falcon has to use some of his smash attacks to KO foes now; never had to use them in Melee.

*Bad approaches and can get screwed by pretty much everyone.

 

[GenG]

Honestly, the only thing I do with Falcon know is grab, grab, grab. Grab between enemy attacks, grab after jab, grab after empty shorthops, fast-falled first nair kick into grab... and then gimping recoveries with his air attacks and raptor boost.

 

[BAD BD]

He is not the worst. He just takes getting used to.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, it not only takes some getting used to in order to play Falcon, Falcon has next to no reliable strategies that can overcome his opponents. Everything about Falcon is literally outthinking your opponent. Because you can't approach or outprioritize your enemy, you have to bait out something so you can punish your opponent. Because you can't kill, you have to ledgeguard aggressively. All in all it's a losing situation for Falcon.

Mind you, shieldgrabbing is rarely ever viable for Falcon, so you can't count that for his bait-and-punish options.

 

[CervPurp63]

There are many characters in Brawl that can't do $h!t against many characters. Captain Falcon is one of those characters. In melee, EVERY character was playable and usable. In Brawl, if you pick a character like Falcon or Ganondorf, someone can jus g@y you with lazers or some other lame projectile or some broken technique. Captain Falcon has no way to counter those broken strategies. Even if he uses platforms to get around some of it, he himself has no true options of retaliation, but grab and hope to land an areal

 

[Tenki]

those lazorsz r so cheep. omgz so hard to approch!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=T8LTkqYFcd0

watch the first 10 seconds. he goes up to wolf like he doesnt afraid of anything.

The big difference in that approach is that Falcon moves alot faster. You can easily close that range after doing it once or twice.

The same can be done with a whole bunch of other moves. You don't necessarily have to approach with an attack, and playing defensively doesn't necessarily mean you sit in one place and wait for them to come.

Sonic is similar, with... a moveset that has generally lower knockback and smaller hitboxes that are easily outprioritized, but there are ways around it.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

He is not the worst. He just takes getting used to.

I'm sorry but if your not going to add anything else to this statement, the arguement is null and void. Same to all the other crappy Pro-Falcon arguements here


Anyways, CF is considered so horrible because he's a Melee character in Brawl Engine, was apparently is a HORRIBLE mix and has ruined what he was in Melee. His comboing potential was what made him in Melee, without that it really cripples his game. He has Atrocious Priority, since a great majority of his moves can be stopped by a simple jab. Average strength attack with either a lot of ending lag or Startup lag, that don't even do damage worth it. He cannot approach AT ALL, he's probably one of the easiest characters to camp once you get into high levels of play, easily telegraphed, has trouble racking up damage, nerfed Knee, the fact that so many others either are great newcomers, or Veterans that got buffed. When you add to the fact he has likely the worst matchups in the game and Horrible Tourney outing so far, he definately at this point in time is a serious canadate for the worst character in Brawl.


Edit: And what the heck is up with the Ganon bashing? Ganon actually makes his hits counts, Autocanceled Dair into Upsmash is 50%, probably more damage then two falcon punches. He has a decent tech chasing game, is a heavy and can tank things out, Ganoncide when he gets up a stock. Ok priority and can acutally approach and better aerials than Falcon. While his matchups are bad, they're not quite as bad as Falcon's with virtually no advantages against anyone. I still believe Ganon is still not that good, but he's not nearly as bad as Falcon.

 

[BananaTrooper]

Please people, let this thread die already. Everything said from now on has been said before; we KNOW falcon got nerfed. Stop beating a dead horse.

Seriously, what the hell - 10 mother****ing pages of falcon bashing is enough.

 

[Tenki]

Falcon boards need a "Captain Falcon Character Discussion Thread".

For a while, what was basically the Ganondorf forum's character discussion thread was a thread titled "Ganondorf is the worst character in the game", where you'd have metagame discussion in the midst of Ganonbashing.

Only in the past few days has an "official" Ganondorf Character Discussion thread been made lol.
hint hint.

 

[KeyKid19]

Wait until the real Tier List comes out. Until then it's just clashing opinions with no end. If you don't play Falcon anymore and don't contribute to his development, then who gives a **** what you think anyways? No one cares if you quit Falcon after Melee. Really. No one. So stop acting like people do. If you're just going to ***** about how you don't like him anymore, then go cry and play Melee. It's not hard. But all of the random losers who think their opinion about Brawl Falcon means something just because they played Melee Falcon need to stop posting. We know you hate him. We know his problems. We however, still enjoy playing as him.

/thread

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Wait until the real Tier List comes out. Until then it's just clashing opinions with no end. If you don't play Falcon anymore and don't contribute to his development, then who gives a **** what you think anyways? No one cares if you quit Falcon after Melee. Really. No one. So stop acting like people do. If you're just going to ***** about how you don't like him anymore, then go cry and play Melee. It's not hard. But all of the random losers who think their opinion about Brawl Falcon means something just because they played Melee Falcon need to stop posting. We know you hate him. We know his problems. We however, still enjoy playing as him.

/thread

Glad you acknowledge that he's not great at all, since you didn't bother to refute my points compared to you doing it to others the entire thread. I just deliever information, I answered the TC's question why so many think CF is bad.


We're not saying you shouldn't play as him, and Tier lists unless you play at a competitive level shouldn't matter at all in choosing your main.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

In melee, EVERY character was playable and usable.

Bowser, Pichu, Mewtwo, Mr. G&W, and Kirby all say hi!

 

[MiraiGen]

Roy.

Don't forget Roy.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Hell let's face it, basicially anyone below Ganondorf in Melee's Tier list didn't really win much at all.

 

[KeyKid19]

Glad you acknowledge that he's not great at all, since you didn't bother to refute my points compared to you doing it to others the entire thread. I just deliever information, I answered the TC's question why so many think CF is bad.


We're not saying you shouldn't play as him, and Tier lists unless you play at a competitive level shouldn't matter at all in choosing your main.

I wasn't trying to refute anyone. I'm saying that there's no point in people saying he's bad anymore because every single possible complaint has already been voiced at some point in this board. This thread does nothing constructive and is mainly composed of people *****ing about how they used to play Falcon but don't anymore because he sucks.

The original poster's question has already been answered if you take the time to read through the thread. You're not adding anything if you come in here and think you're Isaac Newton trying to enlighten everyone. We already know the problems. So shut up about them. Seriously. This thread was over at probably page 3 but there's always some new guy who comes in and thinks he's brilliant or some **** and he says "oh well this is why he's bad: Reasons 1-100." We already know why he's "the worst" though. Ever since like page 3 there has been nothing new in this thread and it just won't die because of idiots.

There's nothing to refute. There's nothing to argue because people DO NOT change their minds for the most part on this board. Anyone who matters already knows his problems, but all of these idiots from other boards keep thinking their enlightening us all on a character they know **** about compared to the regulars here.

So everyone, STFU and let this thread die. There's no point in it continuing. It's a waste of time and a waste of bandwidth (these servers are slow enough as it is without this thread being replied to all the time).

Peace out.

 

[BananaTrooper]

Glad you acknowledge that he's not great at all, since you didn't bother to refute my points compared to you doing it to others the entire thread. I just deliever information, I answered the TC's question why so many think CF is bad.


We're not saying you shouldn't play as him, and Tier lists unless you play at a competitive level shouldn't matter at all in choosing your main.

You haven't made a single point that hasn't been made at least 5 times before in this very thread, your post simply isn't not worth discussing anymore. But, if you insist.

Glad you acknowledge that he's not great at all, since you didn't bother to refute my points compared to you doing it to others the entire thread.

I refute your points. Since I have done this, Falcon is a great character. Right?

I just deliever information, I answered the TC's question why so many think CF is bad.

You will notice (assuming you actually read through this entire ******l discharge of a thread) that the OP posted a grand total of 2 times - both on the first page. You did not post new ideas with the intention of answering his question, you reposted tired and dead information to engage in an argument where you knew you couldn't lose.

EDIT: Insert what KeyKid said above me.

 

[The Star King]

I think he'll end up being middle tier. Bottom tier is for people like Ike.

 

[W-man]

I don't see why people consider he has poor range. He has correct range, which must be associated with his moving speed to make up for his laggy attacks. But don't try to overcome your opponent as you can do with a Fox. That's the most difficult for people to get : you MUST mindgame your adversary. And try to land a Knee and a Falcon Punch at each right occasion. Don't be dumb, you won't fail ; but he needs a lot of learning.

 

[Ayaz18]

I don't see why people consider he has poor range. He has correct range, which must be associated with his moving speed to make up for his laggy attacks. But don't try to overcome your opponent as you can do with a Fox. That's the most difficult for people to get : you MUST mindgame your adversary. And try to land a Knee and a Falcon Punch at each right occasion. Don't be dumb, you won't fail ; but he needs a lot of learning.

about the range issue, Falcon used to have long range because of his hitbox being extended, now in brawl that's all taken away, meanwhile Snake can do any melee attack from a distance that his arms/legs can't reach and it will STILL land, where is the justice? On the issue of how to play Falcon we have extensivly went over this, Falcon must wait for a opening in the opponent lag until it's safe to strike

 

[W-man]

He has a good defense, due to his specials (Falcon kick and Raptor Boost), but also Up-tilt and Up-air. So you must alternate attack and defense, thanks to his easiness for reaching the opponent. Anyway, can you give me a few examples of Snakes hitbox being extended ?

 

[KeyKid19]

Snake is incomparable to Falcon. His priority is ridiculously more, he has projectiles, and if you want an example of an extended hitbox, just look at his freaking Usmash.