Can anyone tell me why Falcon is considered the worst?

[Sh1n0b1]

This thread is still alive???

In the next SSB game he better use his gun!

 

[KeyKid19]

This thread is still alive???

In the next SSB game he better use his gun!

I've been waiting for BOOM HEADSHOT since SSB64.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Captain Falcon kind of reminds me of Ganondorf in which he just has a weapon for show and no use.

 

[Cardd]

well i know the thread has been overdone but i still want to put in my two cents worth.

You like C.Faclcon? Play the hell outa him. So he's been nerfed, so the the hell what. I love to play with him, although he is no longer i my top 3 (he's 5 or 6) and he's fun to play.

The knee is harder yes, but not impossible, and it should be an interesting challenge for falcon players to undertake to reperfect the knee, which i plan to do, like they had in melee. there are a couple set ups for the knee, although at very low dmg, and he almost cannot do it on short ppl like lucas, he's range is short, and he is just all around not as "good" as he used to be.

Boo friggen hoo.

Instead of complaining, how about you spend some more time playing with him and find a way to overcome his issues and have him **** again.

i'll tell you this, i'll will always play falcon, and if you like the knee/falcon punch you should play him too.

Oh, and tiers are for queers, IMO.

Thx for reading.

Peace yall.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Ike'll end up being middle tier. Bottom tier is for people like Captain Falcon.

Fixed.

Ike has priority and better kill moves and grabs.

 

[vills]

why cant he be the same =(

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

He's not the worst, but he's down there. Buffed b-moves hardly make up for his loss of combo potential.

I agree with this, he's not the worst, but he is close. the reason that he is ranked behind Ganondorf is that they are similar, but CF is not as powerful with his b-moves, etc. I know this is very cliched, but CF's knee is harder to hit...

 

[Doggalina]

I almost exclusively played Falcon in Melee (I played a little Marth, Falco, and G&W as well), and the main thing that seems to be missing with him is fluidity. In Melee, I felt like I could do whatever I wanted to do with Falcon. I could go exactly where I wanted to go and do exactly what I wanted to do. I could pressure my opponent constantly.

Now, I feel as if I'm fighting against him. I haven't really used him much, and I usually just use him in Teams. Maybe I'm playing him too much like Melee Falcon when I should really be playing him as Brawl Falcon. Oh well, he's still ridiculously manly and chock-full of testosterone. And the Falcon boards are still amazing (although essentially devoid of G-Reg )

 

[PK-ow!]

^ This although i still believe he can make it to the bottom of mid tier.

Well then.


...

Meh, hit and run suits him. It's sad that you'll never see OMFG juggle -> knee of justice combos anymore, but the knee is still a sudden threat.

And if Ganon can land Warlock Punch more frequently than once in a blue moon...

 

[Tenki]

He's not the worst, but he's down there. Buffed b-moves hardly make up for his loss of combo potential.

I agree with this, he's not the worst, but he is close. the reason that he is ranked behind Ganondorf is that they are similar, but CF is not as powerful with his b-moves, etc. I know this is very cliched, but CF's knee is harder to hit...

Ganondorf players generally make use of his side-B, because of its mindgame/setup/'combo' potential. I rarely see the use of his other B-moves in offensive play, really.

"harder to hit" is in the eye of the beholder.Perhaps it's like... incredibly hard to hit or something, from a former Melee Falcon point of view, but for me, picking up Falcon for the first time, it's just another move with a little startup lag, plus sweetspot. It's just a matter of learning its timing and Falcon's "jumping range".

Well then.


...

Meh, hit and run suits him. It's sad that you'll never see OMFG juggle -> knee of justice combos anymore, but the knee is still a sudden threat.

And if Ganon can land Warlock Punch more frequently than once in a blue moon...

@.@; Ganon can shieldbreak pretty easily. His U-tilt is such a mindgame at edgeguard - it's got low ending lag, high shield damage, knockback, and a vacuum to boot, and his D-air is just too good, at shieldbreaking and damage/kb too. That makes Warlock Punch alot more useful for him.

On Falcon's side, non-reversed Falcon Punches are pretty fast. Considering that you can use it in the air, it's like a charging Fsmash + mobility, but with more knockback.

Anyway, if Ganon can hit with F-air without a combo, Falcon can knee without a combo, at least, that's how I see it.

 

[KeyKid19]

Ganondorf players generally make use of his side-B, because of its mindgame/setup/'combo' potential. I rarely see the use of his other B-moves in offensive play, really.

"harder to hit" is in the eye of the beholder.Perhaps it's like... incredibly hard to hit or something, from a former Melee Falcon point of view, but for me, picking up Falcon for the first time, it's just another move with a little startup lag, plus sweetspot. It's just a matter of learning its timing and Falcon's "jumping range".



@.@; Ganon can shieldbreak pretty easily. His U-tilt is such a mindgame at edgeguard - it's got low ending lag, high shield damage, knockback, and a vacuum to boot, and his D-air is just too good, at shieldbreaking and damage/kb too. That makes Warlock Punch alot more useful for him.

On Falcon's side, non-reversed Falcon Punches are pretty fast. Considering that you can use it in the air, it's like a charging Fsmash + mobility, but with more knockback.

Anyway, if Ganon can hit with F-air without a combo, Falcon can knee without a combo, at least, that's how I see it.

I can see where you're coming from regarding your assessment of Brawl Knee. Have you ever played Falcon in Melee though? Because if you haven't really, you'll never really understand what's wrong with the new Knee. Yes, it's usable (sort of). Yes, you can learn it. But it's also harder due to many new physics/hitstun/frame data/etc. changes.

Ganondorf's Fair does not require a sweetspot to be good, has more priority, and also has a much bigger hitbox. Hitting well with Ganondorf's Fair is actually significantly easier than hitting well with Falcon's Knee.

 

[MiraiGen]

Anyway, if Ganon can hit with F-air without a combo, Falcon can knee without a combo, at least, that's how I see it.

That's a bit of a stretch. Ganondorf's Fist stretches out and it does pitiful damage unless you connect the sweetspot at the end of his wrist to his knuckles. He reaches out. The Knee Smash spot is almost directly on Cap's body.

I honestly think Gdorf is better than Cap, if only because Cap is too middle-of-the-road to be able to really stand out in any area.

And, you know, Flame Choke>Raptor Boost.

Ganondorf's Fair does not require a sweetspot to be good,

Okay, seriously, just no.

Gdorf's Fair has horrible ending lag that's even worse if you land it. It's not even worth it unless you connect with the Fist. At least the Stomp autocancels.

 

[Tenki]

I can see where you're coming from regarding your assessment of Brawl Knee. Have you ever played Falcon in Melee though? Because if you haven't really, you'll never really understand what's wrong with the new Knee. Yes, it's usable (sort of). Yes, you can learn it. But it's also harder due to many new physics/hitstun/frame data/etc. changes.

XD it's been too long since I owned Melee (lent it out 4-5 years ago and moved out of state before I could get it back... lol), so let's just assume that I uh... didn't.

...and that's why I can hardly feel it. Like how former Melee Ganondorf mains kept spamming Ganon F-airs when Brawl first came out, I never felt the need to do so, due to its traits. It's a little different mindset when you start a character with a clean slate than when you have certain predispositions from Melee xD

That's a bit of a stretch. Ganondorf's Fist stretches out and it does pitiful damage unless you connect the sweetspot at the end of his wrist to his knuckles. He reaches out. The Knee Smash spot is almost directly on Cap's body.

I honestly think Gdorf is better than Cap, if only because Cap is too middle-of-the-road to be able to really stand out in any area.

And, you know, Flame Choke>Raptor Boost.

Mm yeah, I guess it was a stretch. I tried to think of a laggy Ganondorf move, and I thought F-air immediately. Though it's actually more of its landing lag that's a problem, not the aerial or 'sweetspot'.

Also, since I did once have Ganondorf as a planned 'main', I understand your sentiments :x

 

[Reaver197]

Having certain predispositions or starting from a "clean slate" does not alter the fact that a move is just not that good. No matter how you look at it, how you approach it, or what sort of mindset you use it in, the new knee is pretty bad.

 

[KeyKid19]

Okay, seriously, just no.

Gdorf's Fair has horrible ending lag that's even worse if you land it. It's not even worth it unless you connect with the Fist. At least the Stomp autocancels.

In case you didn't know, the only real way to use the Knee on anyone on the ground/close to the ground requires timing that will always give you landing lag. And when you gimp them since hitting with the sweetspot is much less than 50% of the time, you're going to get punished. Ganondorf's Fair at least HITS THEM FAR AWAY whenever it hits, so the landing lag is not an issue. Missing with either move results in you getting punished. At least Ganondorf's is worth it since it has a much higher chance of being successful. Who cares if the landing lag is worse when you hit with it? Your opponent is still flying backwards when your landing lag is over.

Also, Ganondorf Fair edgeguard > Falcon Knee edgeguard. Not even CLOSE. If Ganondorf could jump like Falcon it would be even more unequal.

 

[KeyKid19]

XD it's been too long since I owned Melee (lent it out 4-5 years ago and moved out of state before I could get it back... lol), so let's just assume that I uh... didn't.

...and that's why I can hardly feel it. Like how former Melee Ganondorf mains kept spamming Ganon F-airs when Brawl first came out, I never felt the need to do so, due to its traits. It's a little different mindset when you start a character with a clean slate than when you have certain predispositions from Melee xD



Mm yeah, I guess it was a stretch. I tried to think of a laggy Ganondorf move, and I thought F-air immediately. Though it's actually more of its landing lag that's a problem, not the aerial or 'sweetspot'.

Also, since I did once have Ganondorf as a planned 'main', I understand your sentiments :x

So ignorance is bliss? Because that's pretty much what you're arguing here. That's like saying "Fox is really good in Brawl, no need to look at how he was in Melee."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Y'know what, SONIC is the worst character. Not Captain Falcon.

I mean srsly, Sonic has less range, priority, and power than Falcon (and Falcon can actually approach nicely with just a few attacks). And now that we proved that Falcon has better combos than Sonic, I mean w/e for Sonic. Sonic fails MASSIVELY. Falcon still fails, but does things better than Sonic.

So yeah, that also means Mario >>>> Sonic for sure lolololol.

 

[MiraiGen]

In case you didn't know, the only real way to use the Knee on anyone on the ground/close to the ground requires timing that will always give you landing lag. And when you gimp them since hitting with the sweetspot is much less than 50% of the time, you're going to get punished. Ganondorf's Fair at least HITS THEM FAR AWAY whenever it hits, so the landing lag is not an issue. Missing with either move results in you getting punished. At least Ganondorf's is worth it since it has a much higher chance of being successful. Who cares if the landing lag is worse when you hit with it? Your opponent is still flying backwards when your landing lag is over.

Also, Ganondorf Fair edgeguard > Falcon Knee edgeguard. Not even CLOSE. If Ganondorf could jump like Falcon it would be even more unequal.

Where do I begin?

For one thing I never said that you should use the Knee to edgeguard. So telling me that one is better than the other doesn't even really argue your point.

Hitting with Ganondorf's Fair anywhere but the sweetspot is pitiful in the KO department. It's an awful attack that's only marginally useful because of it's range. It doesn't hit them nearly far enough to make up for the horrible landing lag. Your opponent may be moving backwards but, come on. Have you even seen Ganondorf recover from it? I'd be surprised if someone at decent-to-high percentages didn't recover before you.

The only reason I said "unless you hit with the Fist" is because I wanted to clarify that the non-sweetspot attack radius is awful at best.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

OMFG this topic is back from the dead!

 

[KeyKid19]

Where do I begin?

For one thing I never said that you should use the Knee to edgeguard. So telling me that one is better than the other doesn't even really argue your point.

Hitting with Ganondorf's Fair anywhere but the sweetspot is pitiful in the KO department. It's an awful attack that's only marginally useful because of it's range. It doesn't hit them nearly far enough to make up for the horrible landing lag. Your opponent may be moving backwards but, come on. Have you even seen Ganondorf recover from it? I'd be surprised if someone at decent-to-high percentages didn't recover before you.

The only reason I said "unless you hit with the Fist" is because I wanted to clarify that the non-sweetspot attack radius is awful at best.

How does it not argue a point? If both moves suck on the ground but one is a decent edgeguard while the other is not, that makes it a better move. End of story.

And Falcon's non-sweetspotted Knee somehow isn't pitiful in the KO department either? They both are horrid. Ganondorf's "sweetspot" is ridiculously easier to hit with than Falcon's. End of story. Ganondorf's is hardly a sweetspot in the first place. Calling that move a sweetspot move is like calling Falcon's Bair a sweetspot move. Your chance of NOT sweetspotting it is MUCH lower than your chance of getting it right. Does that make it a good move though? No. The landing lag is bad. But so is the Knee's. I'll take an extra .2 seconds of lag or whatever it is over a move that cannot be sweetspotted regularly in a real match situation. I've played both enough to have full confidence in my assessment of the two moves. Your claim that someone with "decent-to-high" percentages would recover BEFORE Ganondorf is ridiculous. If you hit someone with it when they have 60%, they're still going to be flying backwards after you're done and already chasing them (and I use chase in a very loose sense since Ganondorf fails at movement).

 

[Sephiroth27]

If you don't use Falcon then you probably don't main him.

 

[Iwan]

If you don't use Falcon then you probably don't main him.

Don't you mean if you don't main Falcon you probably don't use him?
lol?

haha, and i completely agree with that. The thing I've learned is that people can "do well" with falcon. "Well" meaning they can win against every character in this game (as long as the player is competent enough). There are terrible matchups for falcon (like, really really bad matchups), but after using him for a long time you get an idea of what to do, when to do it, when to defend and when to be offensive....

I think this goes for every character in this game (from what I've seen to this point).

Not going to win any tournaments with Falcon, but still...going back to the point i was making, people can find moderate success with Captain Falcon, but not if they just "pick up and play" with him.

You either main him or use him frequently....or you're bad with him. Imo.

 

[Sephiroth27]

Don't you mean if you don't main Falcon you probably don't use him?
lol?

Nah, I'm standing by what I said.

 

[Tenki]

subliminal messaging is lolz

So ignorance is bliss? Because that's pretty much what you're arguing here. That's like saying "Fox is really good in Brawl, no need to look at how he was in Melee."

Kind of. I was thinking more along the lines of having the mindset that a move is as good as it used to be, especially if it were changed alot. If it were something whose usage remained similar, like U-air for example, then sure, there's no problem in taking advantage of what you used to be able to do with it, since it's still possible now. Melee's knee combos won't work anymore, the sweetspot is different, so I don't see what harm there is to disregarding what you used to be able to do with it, since all it leaves is a bitter nostalgia.

Y'know what, SONIC is the worst character. Not Captain Falcon.

I mean srsly, Sonic has less range, priority, and power than Falcon (and Falcon can actually approach nicely with just a few attacks). And now that we proved that Falcon has better combos than Sonic, I mean w/e for Sonic. Sonic fails MASSIVELY. Falcon still fails, but does things better than Sonic.

So yeah, that also means Mario >>>> Sonic for sure lolololol.

Sonic has enough speed to play the punishment game while spacing himself out of range of attacks on moves that you normally wouldn't be able to with other melee characters (eg, Ganon jab, D3 F-tilt, Ike F-air). In the punishment game, priority is an issue that hardly comes up; it only comes up if you're going head to head on other people's attacks, a style that most Sonic players shun. Individually, his moves do have less power, but at least his moves actually flow into each other, and he's got alot more natural 'true' combos.

It commends a different kinda playstyle, I guess. But if you rank characters on pure head to head combat, move against move, only in the middle of the stage, then yes, Sonic sucks lol. @.@ it's as out of context as rating Jigglypuff on her ground game

[edit/reply to next post]
Actually, I can tell you from experience as a total newbie to Falcon, starting off with Ike and all his lag (lol I used to think he'd be an unpopular character due to his speed), after having had to learn D-air timing for Ganondorf, B-air timing for Sonic... Nah. It's not that bad

They're really pretty similar. I think the d-air timing for Falcon and Ganondorf is actually the same.

 

[KeyKid19]

Kind of. I was thinking more along the lines of having the mindset that a move is as good as it used to be, especially if it were changed alot. If it were something whose usage remained similar, like U-air for example, then sure, there's no problem in taking advantage of what you used to be able to do with it, since it's still possible now. Melee's knee combos won't work anymore, the sweetspot is different, so I don't see what harm there is to disregarding what you used to be able to do with it, since all it leaves is a bitter nostalgia.

I think even if I didn't have the old Knee to compare the new Knee too, I would still get frustrated by it. Same goes for Dair. Knowing how they once were just sours the already bad situation a little more. lol

 

[talkingbeatles]

Fixed.

Ike has priority and better kill moves and grabs.

Ike also fights for his friends...

...so y'know, he's cool and stuff.