Social C. Falcon Social

[Winston]

techchasing can be easy or hard depending on the opponents DI
any falcon main should know exactly what im talking about
upthrow fox => DI hard away => easy techchase
upthrow fox => DI in => hard techchase (?)

Maybe at low percents, but there's dthrow for that.

yep

good ones make it a huge challenge unless you are playing like god

hax seems to be consistently good though

He does a lot more reaction based stuff/baiting stuff rather than going for reads all the time, imo.

Plus he uses side B a lot which is super likely to hit

 

[Dan -Zodiac-]

other than tech chasing, isnt raptor boost sometimes used to punish people using an air or landing?

 

[Deleted member]

yep, the pull back on it makes it good for dodging/counter attacking and hitting it on shield isn't necessarily bad either

some people shield grab raptor boosts too and depending on how big their shield is they may whiff

raptor boosting the back of someone's shield however is usually bad because its a free b-air in 90% of cases

==

i am also pretty lacking in the falcon vs marth matchup so i often let a side-b rip and hope i scoop them when they n-air

 

[Nakamaru]

The marth matchup is actually really boring if you play it correctly. It is just shield grabs, and WD OoS.

It can be hella fun though if both players are going for flashy stuff instead of standard DD tricks.

 

[DuckPimp]

a lot of boring matchups are fun if you shout every time you attack and get progressively louder as combos continue

 

[Deleted member]

that's why i don't like it, i'm not interested in boring standard combos and like the potential of stuff that could happen vs the spacies

i also somewhat have the same problem with peaches but i'm a little bit better, but not up to my standards in that matchup

it's sadly also why i think i phail at easy stuff most falcons can do like land up-throw/ d-throw knee, either that or i suck at pulling off easier things

 

[Nakamaru]

I rarely try for cool things in the fox MU. I always feel like I'm running away from him the entire match, so every grab i get is a huge relief and i never want to blow it doing something dumb.

 

[Deleted member]

i like matchups where theres a lot of in-fighting. Fox ( except for mango) is one I extremely enjoy

On paper, fox might beat out falcon in terms of in-fighting, but figuring out the flow of opponents and their weaknesses and beating them straight up is one of the funnest things to me about smash. AND EVERYONE has a flow, better players are better at hiding it but everyones only human.

I'd say thats why in friendlies at Apex, I had a lot of fun plaing the ganons like Kage and Linguini because all we did was do close quarters combat all day long, no gay dash dancing camping. we just want to beat the **** out of each other

 

[sanchaz]

On paper, fox might beat out falcon in terms of in-fighting, but figuring out the flow of opponents and their weaknesses and beating them straight up is one of the funnest things to me about smash. AND EVERYONE has a flow, better players are better at hiding it but everyones only human.

Best thing I've read all year.

 

[ryankam10]

My personal favorite option coverage is Dthrow near the ledge, pivot Bair to cover missed tech / tech in place and regrab the techrolls because the ledge shortens their techroll away

are you talking about shffling a bair towards the ledge such that even if they roll in (away from the ledge) or towards the ledge you can regrab them?
i actually never thought of doing that but it seems like a good idea lol

wow
i just went through this in my head and its AMAZING LOL

 

[Nakamaru]

Stealing....

 

[Deleted member]

i used to do it a lot and its pretty good but I'm not sure how good it is on very abusive foxes who DI down-throws hellllllllllllllllllllllla down and away

not bad if they Don't DI away though

 

[ryankam10]

also i think ive maybe (???) come to a realization about fox vs falcon... in this matchup both sides have a tough time dealing with pressure
usually us as falcons we are easily overwhelmed by foxes insane speed, shield pressure and extremely fast tech chases... auto combos, regrabs and such
but if u think about it fox also has a hard time dealing with some of falcons ****, foxes die extremely easily due to their weight, they are vulnerable to chain grabs, tech chases, jab reset => knee, and they also have a hard time dealing with gentleman in infighting situations

what im trying to say basically i think is that this matchup is very like... momentum based
whoever puts on more pressure and moves faster will pretty much have the upper hand. i was watching some s2j matches from big house such as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q-iUxG6a-k&feature=related and s2j is pretty much moving really really fast
hes not really playing in a typical 'gay' style. hes just moving fast and putting on the pressure on offense which maybe is a good way to play this matchup (???) lol.

btw the kind of pressure im referring to that foxes have a hard time dealing with is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q-iUxG6a-k&feature=related#t=5m32s
when the momentum is extremely against them... basically its exactly what we complain about against fox... when they're basically all over your *** and you aren't even able to reset back to neutral

 

[Deleted member]

heheheh..

about that set. I was definitely moving way too fast. Things may have worked out for me and lovage in the end since we got 1st/2nd but some chicago mother phucker snored way too ****ing loud the night before and I had about 30 minutes of sleep

i mean, unknown suicided a few times and he still beat me, nothing more to say! pwnd!!

edit: watched that clip u linked, guess i wasn't playing as bad as i thought but still..

in terms of your question, my style seems viable, i mean it works for me but maybe not for you. The reason why I don't like matchup guidelines that tell you strictly what to do like dash dance camp until u get a grab is because there simply isn't only one way to play.

i hate dash dance camping for the record. i even feel like a douche when a fox full hop n-airs at me unsafely and i just do a quick dash dance and grab

==

gentlemen is very good vs fox too but only if you space it correctly, most foxes can crouch it at low percents + if falcon is too close they are gunna get punished. I've seen some elite foxes crouch+ smash DI the jabs inside so they can get in my grill and **** me

 

[Wenbobular]

are you talking about shffling a bair towards the ledge such that even if they roll in (away from the ledge) or towards the ledge you can regrab them?
i actually never thought of doing that but it seems like a good idea lol

wow
i just went through this in my head and its AMAZING LOL

It might work with knee too now that I think about it but getting the regrab with knee is harder and I think this might even work on Falco if you're fast enough

Although at this point I'm making stuff up because when I think about it I've never tried it on a Falco haha

 

[Deleted member]

back air is quicker no doubt about it, success rate is definitely higher than knee

trust me though, a lot of these cases are ***** by spacies (esp falco since his tech roll goes further) DI-ing down and away abusively. KNEE IN PLACE AND MISS --> attempt to cover tech away won't work if its on an even plane with no edges and they DI down and away.

I won't lie, b-air is a great idea and I used it sometimes. One of the reasons why I stopped is because assuming opponent is competent, its usually not as rewarding as stomp/knee.

I sometimes do still do it but its often a mistake of my spacing then I back-air since its the only thing i can do

there's no magic formula of guaranteed tech chases in 100% of spots unless you have godlike reflexes. Even then, spacies abusing 'edge'-cancelling by flopping their bodies on stage edges or platform edges to become safe make it so forever regrabs are impossible

also, WENBO WTF. Y DIDNT WE PLAY

 

[Wenbobular]

Thorough lack of setups would be my guess <_< I feel like every time I saw someone I'd want to play they were already part of a 4 man rotation or something

I'll find you next tournament!!

 

[Deleted member]

i did not experience such rotations but thats because I played when everyone else was watching the tournament matches, playing people who I literally can only play once a year at best is better than watching dudes play tourney

i missed some sick javi matches but 0 regrets

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just hope I didn't bore you in our friendlies <3

Because you missed a lot of Javi matches because we played

 

[Wenbobular]

Ok well
In that case I would've felt too big for my britches jumping into an s2j + KK rotation <_< haha

I'll man up next time

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

I still feel like I got shafted the most at this tourney. Thoughts s2j?

 

[Deleted member]

going 3-1 and not making it out of pools isn't right in almost any circumstance

so...yeah i would have to agree although there are probably many other horrible cases that occured too

 

[DuckPimp]

tafo you and lance whupped me and kaffei in doubles though. we got your number next time

 

[crush]

Why do you complain about throwing turnips in friendlies? -__-

Why have your parents not been sent to debtor's prison, leaving you to pursue your lifelong dream of being a dickens street urchin?

These are complex questions, and this is a compound sentence.

LOOOOL how did i not see this

 

[Windrose]

are you talking about shffling a bair towards the ledge such that even if they roll in (away from the ledge) or towards the ledge you can regrab them?
i actually never thought of doing that but it seems like a good idea lol

wow
i just went through this in my head and its AMAZING LOL

marth strategies at the ledge

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

What do you think separates me as a semi decent player to a top tier player?

 

[_Rocky_]

What do you think separates me as a semi decent player to a top tier player?

****** me in a money match when I was 100% confident it would go to 3rd game

jk

The only thing separating you seemed to be your seeding ROFL
Everyone in the US was crazy good though so I think it must be EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMELY hard to separate top players from the high level ones.

 

[Gahtzu]

the difference between high tier players and top tier players is consistency IMO since the tech skill difference between those isnt much

 

[Deleted member]

dealing with ghey abusive strategies too IMO

 

[Juggleguy]

Consistency in: controlling space, pressuring the opponent, and taking the stock after you've landed a solid hit IMO

 

[DuckPimp]

My biggest training tool is actually playing slower than I usually do during push and pull phases. I do this so my opponent can more effectively see how I'm zoning, approaching, defending, etc. Once they get used to what I'm doing, I'll simply increase the speed. Their reactions to my play will pick up in response. Once they can contend with what I'm doing vs them, I'll drop the speed back down and switch strats. Rinse and repeat.

One of the issues in the game is that, at the speed most of the high/top level plays, so much can easily go unnoticed if you don't know what to look for.

Punishment, you should obviously try and go all out (at a speed you can be consistent at) until you have a good sense of what combo trees are available to your level of technical ability and then maintain those until you improve. Make that **** your bread and butter. Once you have more speed, you can start getting creative and make the next tier of connections your bread and butter. Rinse and repeat.

Technical errors are much more common if you try to play as fast as possible all of the time. Playing like that is like training for a marathon by sprinting a half mile every day. You want to run at a solid pace for 5 miles and throw in a stretch of sprinting here and there, not blow your load in the first 2 minutes.

In addition, if you go from 0-60 like that and your thought processes can't keep up with the speed yet, even if you don't make a technical error, you will make bad decisions because of a disconnect between current location of character and previous. People that play like that tend to watch their own character more than watching the opponent's. The consequence of doing so is that their reaction to the opponent's actions are greatly delayed.


And you guys all know what happens when you make a technical error or a bad decision: Armada downsmashes you once and death combos you out of it. Mango finds you shielding and goes in hard. Hbox rests you. M2K grabs you. Javi quintuple shines you offstage somehow. Etc.


Basically: Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Build up to what you want to do, do it consistently for a while, then move on to something else. Go back every once in a while to keep rust off and to ensure your responses are solid.

Edit: I used to get a lot of **** for being a sandbagger because I would do this. I didn't really understand the reasons behind it years ago, but... you know... with age comes wisdom dark side something something.

this is some pretty good insight into what makes a top player

 

[bertbusdriver]

learning on the fly against new opponents. pros pick up on certain parts of your game they can exploit and adapt to quickly. Also, matchup experience against all of the entire tournament-viable characters.

 

[Iron Dragon]

s2j I want to know your thoughts on playing Tope both times. What do you think about the matchup overall as a whole? What do you think Tope does so much better than the other Sheiks that makes it that much harder?

 

[JPOBS]

what thread did you take that from duckpimp? must be some good discusson going on for cactus to post something like that.

 

[bertbusdriver]

its the ask cactuar thread on the marth boards

 

[Deleted member]

s2j I want to know your thoughts on playing Tope both times. What do you think about the matchup overall as a whole? What do you think Tope does so much better than the other Sheiks that makes it that much harder?

My first thought on playing Tope is this is pretty ****ing gay because I am a 1st seed that is facing another 1st seed that happened to be Tope. That in itself is like a 1/60 chance so that is pretty unlucky. Instant 2nd seed when about 50/60~ of the other first seeds for round 1 im confident I coulda beat them pretty easily

Playing him a 2nd time is also extremely gay but I was already in a 'i lost' mood because I lost to Armada 2nd round for the 3rd time in a row for nationals

nevertheless, i tried, and got whooped harder than in pools

==

falcon vs shiek if shiek sucks (aka not TOPE) is pretty close to even. Tope makes it 70/30, and literally only him. He is by far the hardest shiek I have played in my life, harder than mew2king, kirbykaze, etc.

to me, what tope does is different is what he doesn't do. Tope does not for any special tricks. He just goes with what is guaranteed to work and pulls it off well.

Seamless tech chases, strong fundamentals in terms of comboing, knowing what will work, and saying no to my falcon gimmicks/ tricks

He just assassinates falcons with no remorse, no soul. I am done goingi falcon vs. him and I am not kidding. Literally only vs him I am going to go Falco in tournament

 

[Cactuar]

what thread did you take that from duckpimp? must be some good discusson going on for cactus to post something like that.

Lol. Not really. s2j just asked me to teach him how to improve, and (even if it was a troll request) I care about his improvement a whole lot more than most people, so I wrote up a nice summary of my methods/approach/mindset.

<3

I probably should have just told him to latehit uair people off the ground more. That **** is sex.

 

[Divinokage]

You are sex, Cactuar =P

 

[Gahtzu]

saved that ****

 

[ryankam10]

are there vids of s2j vs tope

Love this set vs sheik btw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI_0N7-C4ZM
just so good, doing everything right vs sheik. if i want to learn the matchup this is the set i watch lol