Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Smilez]

Very true Gimpy. As a suggestion, try Heavy Brawl...I feel that there is a different experience waiting in this game mode. In my opinion at he very least its more competitive.

 

[IrArby]

"I, for one, am seriously considering giving up Smash altogether. A lot of the Melee veterans aren't coming back, and honestly, that's the only crowd I'd want to be with. If the intelligence of the Brawl Boards is any foreshadowing to what the next generation Smash community will be like, I want to have no part in it."

I just started playing smash on the adv. tech level in October of last Year (so sad for me) and its even more sad to finally get a grasp on the potential that Melee had and have it all die in Brawl and not only that but watch melee be neglected to death. Melee still has alot to offer me but everyone I know is playing Brawl. God **** you Sakuri.

yes I went there

 

[Brawler1432]

No offence Gimpy, but I can't agree at all wth you

 

[Pikaville]

The fact that when playing a good player in melee that any mistake could be your last was what I loved so much.I miss it.It not really stopping me liking it though.

 

[Break]

People need to stop shouting more cries of "Give the game more time! It will develop."

Lol, not really. It's becoming increasingly aware that, competitively speaking, Brawl is going nowhere fast. It's just a watered-down version of Melee.

Yep. Folks are in a state of naive denial. It's odd really. I don't understand how someone with respectable Melee experience can't realize this after a few hours of playtime.

The fact that when playing a good player in melee that any mistake could be your last was what I loved so much.I miss it.It not really stopping me liking it though.

Yeah, I hate going for a punish and instead of a satisfying smash to their face all I hit is freakin' shield. The game's still fun to play with friends though.

 

[RDK]

"I, for one, am seriously considering giving up Smash altogether. A lot of the Melee veterans aren't coming back, and honestly, that's the only crowd I'd want to be with. If the intelligence of the Brawl Boards is any foreshadowing to what the next generation Smash community will be like, I want to have no part in it."

I just started playing smash on the adv. tech level in October of last Year (so sad for me) and its even more sad to finally get a grasp on the potential that Melee had and have it all die in Brawl and not only that but watch melee be neglected to death. Melee still has alot to offer me but everyone I know is playing Brawl. God **** you Sakuri.

yes I went there

That's what disturbs me about Brawl so much. People who just jumped on the Smash bandwagon with Brawl are already almost on equal footing with Melee veterans who have been playing the game for 6 + years.

Now, gratned, those who were the best at Melee are still pretty much going to be the best at Brawl. That's just how it works. But I don't like that I can go toe-to-toe with any half-decent Snake, and have him take me down to the last stock before I K.O. him.

Also, Brawl is TOO ****ING CAMPY. **** PIT.

 

[Embrio]

Gimpy you are so right with everything you said. If u ever decide to create a forum seperate from SWF for melee (or people who give **** about competition and integrity) look me up.

 

[Red Exodus]

Right now Brawl is just a shiny play thing. I like it's features, music, stages and characters but I can see myself going back to Melee a few months to be with Samus and Ganon again. Brawl and Melee are two different games and I will play them as 2 different games. Just as people will play Mario Kart and Brawl at the same time I will play Brawl and Melee at the same time.

P.S. Thanks for nerfing Samus to hell Sakurai/Sora/whoever nerfed her.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I, for one, am seriously considering giving up Smash altogether. A lot of the Melee veterans aren't coming back, and honestly, that's the only crowd I'd want to be with. If the intelligence of the Brawl Boards is any foreshadowing to what the next generation Smash community will be like, I want to have no part in it.

Yeah me too. If Melee doesn't make a return I'm through with Smash and probably video games in general. I'm 22. The average age of Brawlers is about 12. These aren't my peers and I don't want to participate in scrubfests with children.

 

[UCbizerkeley]

Question - could a patch be applied via WiFi to create a competitive mode or something that includes L-canceling and the like? download it to the HD and whenever you run Smash, it also runs this patch off the internal HD that gives more options? IE turn L-cancel on|off

 

[draigaran]

Question - could a patch be applied via WiFi to create a competitive mode or something that includes L-canceling and the like? download it to the HD and whenever you run Smash, it also runs this patch off the internal HD that gives more options? IE turn L-cancel on|off

No. There is no hard drive on the Wii. And just in general, no.

 

[UCbizerkeley]

another hypothetical - would the game be better if they had simply removed post-move lag? or halved it like L-canceling did in melee? that way EVERYONE has access to the skill but undoubtedly it could be harnessed better by better players. i, for one, think the game would have at least been a superior brawl

 

[DraginHikari]

another hypothetical - would the game be better if they had simply removed post-move lag? or halved it like L-canceling did in melee? that way EVERYONE has access to the skill but undoubtedly it could be harnessed better by better players. i, for one, think the game would have at least been a superior brawl

That would put the slower power characters at an advanatge because that lag is what keeps them from bulldozing their way through.

 

[Shai Hulud]

That would put the slower power characters at an advanatge because that lag is what keeps them from bulldozing their way through.

Yeah, because in SSB64 and in Melee, the slower power characters totally bulldozed the competition.

 

[DraginHikari]

Yeah, because in SSB64 and in Melee, the slower power characters totally bulldozed the competition.

That wasn't what I meant, I was referring to what he was taking about by not just altering the end lag so it's cancellable but removing it entirely. That pretty much suggests to me that if power characters had NO lag after there moves period leaves little room for mistakes to punish those characters for their power due ot there slow recovery time.

In Melee and N64, you had to physically cancel your lag through pressing a button to remove the lag of ariels and such from my understand.

If I misunderstood I do apoglize but that simply what it looked like...

 

[draigaran]

If I may bring up the original topic of backwards progression.

It took until 2005 or 2006 for moonwalking to be discovered/actually used and until 2004 for pivoting to be discovered. Similar things will happen with Brawl, just as they happened with Melee and other games (double shotting in Halo 2 wasn't a necessary/actually consistent skill for players until the last year, year and half of its life cycle).

Will super drastic, wavedashing-esk techniques be found? Maybe not, but new things will probably be found every month for the next year or two, at the very least, and these new things will only add to the pile of cool stuff we've already discovered.

Does it suck that wavedashing/lcanceling were obviously removed to take away from the tech heavy game that was Melee? Yes. Does it suck that tripping was added for no reason at all? Yes. But, its still early, way, way to early to judge Brawl and whatever competitive merits it may have. Right now, Brawl is just a game, in infant in its life cycle, it doesn't matter how many people are attacking Brawl from different angles, the game is still young, still evolving at an incredible rate. Did you know it wasn't until about 2004 that people started to consistently wavedash/short hop (Chillin claims that when he beat Ken at GO in Jan 2004 that he didn't even know how to short hop)? Did you know that most of the tech heavy stuff we see now in Melee really didn't come around until the end of 2005? Peach's technical game didn't even really arrive until 2006/early 2007 when we started seeing players like Xif, Doll, and Cort outpace old favorites like Mike G and Vidjo, neither of whom are particularly tech heavy (though I think Vidjo has evolved his game since).

Here is the problem with the entire debate, on both sides:
You are comparing Melee, 6-7 years after its launch, 3-4 years after heavy tournament usage and thousands of tournament data, against, Brawl, 1 week-6 weeks after its launch, less then 6 weeks of heavy tournament usage, and less than 30 or so tournaments for data. It has nothing to do with the internet, most learning is accomplished in a live tournament setting and just about any competitive player will attest to the fact that they learn more from a single tournament than they do from a week or month of playing casually. So how then, can we really know how Brawl will play out? We don't, we'll have to wait and see.

I think these points were more than valid.

 

[UCbizerkeley]

That wasn't what I meant, I was referring to what he was taking about by not just altering the end lag so it's cancellable but removing it entirely. That pretty much suggests to me that if power characters had NO lag after there moves period leaves little room for mistakes to punish those characters for their power due ot there slow recovery time.

In Melee and N64, you had to physically cancel your lag through pressing a button to remove the lag of ariels and such from my understand.

If I misunderstood I do apoglize but that simply what it looked like...

Well my angle was this - if Sakurai wants everyone to have equal access, then just add those aspects to the game. Don't arbitrarily slow Brawl down, just let everyone be fast - it isn't rocket science to learn to L-cancel, just most people don't know about it.

Just an FYI - in N64 l-cancel removed ALL lag. In Melee it removed half. Either could have been a viable option. Faster characters were still best in N64, ie, pika/ness/falcon/fox/kirby. of course, i just named like half of all the cahracters, but DK was not top tier

 

[RDK]

No. There is no hard drive on the Wii. And just in general, no.

Technically, in the future you'll be able to put a larger internal HD on the Wii and run ISO's off of that (for any of you who are piracy-savvy, you'll know what I'm talking about).

So technically, yes it could happen. Speaking about reality? Sakurai would never do that.

 

[DraginHikari]

Well my angle was this - if Sakurai wants everyone to have equal access, then just add those aspects to the game. Don't arbitrarily slow Brawl down, just let everyone be fast - it isn't rocket science to learn to L-cancel, just most people don't know about it.

Just an FYI - in N64 l-cancel removed ALL lag. In Melee it removed half. Either could have been a viable option. Faster characters were still best in N64, ie, pika/ness/falcon/fox/kirby. of course, i just named like half of all the cahracters, but DK was not top tier

I suppose I simply misunderstood... I will admit I don't completely understand the whole concept behind the lag simply based on my own personal experience with it. However, once I learned the concept myself to an extent in Melee I was able to deal with faster characters who didn't really use it. Prehaps my irriatability here is getting to my thought train

But for a quick personal note on this entire subject... as it stands my patience like many others is growing thin with this place. I've been to alot of game forums and I mean alot... and this one has started to become one of the worse crummeling situations I have witnessed. It's becoming extremely depressing to even look at alot of the time.

 

[Shai Hulud]

That wasn't what I meant, I was referring to what he was taking about by not just altering the end lag so it's cancellable but removing it entirely. That pretty much suggests to me that if power characters had NO lag after there moves period leaves little room for mistakes to punish those characters for their power due ot there slow recovery time.

In Melee and N64, you had to physically cancel your lag through pressing a button to remove the lag of ariels and such from my understand.

If I misunderstood I do apoglize but that simply what it looked like...

In SSB64 Z-cancelling removed lag completely. My point was that slow powerful characters are never as good as fast characters, even if you cut the lag on their aerials. In SSB64 the slower characters (Samus, Link) were bottom tier despite having zero aerial lag.

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm not sure if I agree fully, but the logic seems to be in the right place.

What logic? He's only made an observation - and it's only speculation, and only from his personal experience. He hasn't given us anything to objectively check or verify, so from our end, he could have just said anything.

I can say "I think this game is going to get some sweet combos, but that perfect shield will become really relevant," and I've given you just as good reason to believe me as he has.

???

 

[LouisLeGros]

What logic? He's only made an observation - and it's only speculation, and only from his personal experience. He hasn't given us anything to objectively check or verify, so from our end, he could have just said anything.

I can say "I think this game is going to get some sweet combos, but that perfect shield will become really relevant," and I've given you just as good reason to believe me as he has.

???

or you could give us a plan for how to advance a army division and then a Army General could give us an opposing plan... They both would just be two people speculating on how to do something and what the outcome would be, why should we trust the General's opinion over yours?

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Hold on . . . A Fox Combo Video?!?! Is that all this game is About to some people? How fast you can cheaply kill someone with Fox. People would rather get kicked around by Fox than play brawl?! You know how many Foxes I've had to Fight just because he is easiest to master? Melee was unbalanced as hell, okay?!?! Lets talk about Melee's Flaws for once. A ton of people talk about it like there wasn't a thing wrong with it but I don't feel that's true. Melee had flaws, and yeah, of course Brawl does too. It's more like just trading out those flaws. Brawl is a more balanced game that is slower and takes longer to finish fights. Tournaments will conform by lowering stock AND people will learn to fight differently. We've all talked about unavoidable tiers before so I wont go there. Is Brawls combat so dumbed down that it can't be competitive? I really don't think so. So Boo Hoo, you can't watch Fox scoot around wave dashing & shining a billion times. There is not enough wrong with Brawl to completely Sh##-Can people seriously playing it.

What the hell are you talking about? Fox is definitely among top 3 characters to master in Melee >__>

 

[draigaran]

or you could give us a plan for how to advance a army division and then a Army General could give us an opposing plan... They both would just be two people speculating on how to do something and what the outcome would be, why should we trust the General's opinion over yours?

The OP may be really good at smash, but this isn't analogous to a wartime situation. Military personnel are trained to analyze situations and form an appropriate strategic approach to the situation. Gimpy is stating an opinion, based only on personal thoughts, preferences, and feel for a game which has been out for a few weeks.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

He'll be alright people. Its a common reaction to having your biscuit burned that badly. He may even become a better human-being.
(noob isn't a pre-school insult .... hmm .... I wish I could get a book that explained )

You, in no way, shape, or form, burned coreygames :/

Brawl drops the combos and replaces them with advantaegous positioning and mindgames. Its about knowing where and when to use a move, and furthermore, when to use a different move just to trip up a smart opponent. That is a lot more fun than drab combos and ATs.

Um, that's the thing though. Playing at a high level in Melee requires advantageous positioning, mindgames, combos, AND ATs. Not just a select few of the aforementioned qualities.

 

[poorboy93]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)


The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.


.

Well goes to show that too much of anything is a bad thing, however, who knows? maybe well find a glitch?

A overly offensive game, is pretty bad too, where you can combo **** into oblivion

and where gimp kings rule smash, wont that mean that if people dont pick multi jump characters, they lose?

and who has the time to completely master the game? that will atleast take us like more than 5 years....so we have to enjoy brawl when we can until some guy with no life masters it XD

 

[LouisLeGros]

The OP may be really good at smash, but this isn't analogous to a wartime situation. Military personnel are trained to analyze situations and form an appropriate strategic approach to the situation. Gimpy is stating an opinion, based only on personal thoughts, preferences, and feel for a game which has been out for a few weeks.

Yes I know, but he is still a professional smasher and I think that his observations of competitive play and of the trend that game is taking carry some weight.


I'm not saying that we should listen to whatever any "pro" smasher says and accept it has the ultimate truth for smash, but I do think his observations outweigh someone who I can only assume has little experience with competitive smash.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

and where gimp kings rule smash, wont that mean that if people dont pick multi jump characters, they lose?

Which is why Jigglypuff is middle tier and Kirby is low (or is it BOTTOM) tier? This also perfectly explains why the two best characters in the game (very likely) are Fox and Marth.

and who has the time to completely master the game? that will atleast take us like more than 5 years....so we have to enjoy brawl when we can until some guy with no life masters it XD

Ugh. The "people that have an iota of skill in video games have absolutely no life" stereotype is so old and tired. It's not true :/

 

[draigaran]

Yes I know, but he is still a professional smasher and I think that his observations of competitive play and of the trend that game is taking carry some weight.


I'm not saying that we should listen to whatever any "pro" smasher says and accept it has the ultimate truth for smash, but I do think his observations outweigh someone who I can only assume has little experience with competitive smash.

I almost agree with you there (the bit about giving more weight to a more experienced player's opinions than that of a less experienced player), but Gimpy isn't the only pro smasher out there. Earlier in the thread I quoted AlphaZealot, whom I believe I'm fairly safe to assume is also experienced enough. Basically, he says we should probably wait it out, it's too soon to tell. I'm not saying that Gimpy's opinions aren't valid.. I suppose you can't have invalid opinions.. but AZ backs his views up a little better.

And plus I'm biased, because I want this to be a competitive game. But I'll pretend I didn't say that.

 

[poorboy93]

Which is why Jigglypuff is middle tier and Kirby is low (or is it BOTTOM) tier? This also perfectly explains why the two best characters in the game (very likely) are Fox and Marth.



Ugh. The "people that have an iota of skill in video games have absolutely no life" stereotype is so old and tired. It's not true :/

Yeah well melee isnt the one going backwards? Brawl is..
and Jiggly's gay rising pound was banned with the godly stall

And with people assuming pit and meta is top tier -___-

Oh and stereotypes work for most people... as to say, asian people are bad drivers. not all of them are, but most them are... thats how stereotypes began in the 1st place?

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Yeah well melee isnt the one going backwards? Brawl is..
and Jiggly's gay rising pound was banned with the godly recovery

And with people assuming pit and meta is top tier -___-

Oh and stereotypes work for most people... as to say, asian people are bad drivers. not all of them are, but most them are... thats how stereotypes began in the 1st place?

Okay, I meant the "Pro gamers have no life" stereotype doesn't deserve stereotype status and is flat out wrong. Does that help clarify my point?

Jiggly's rising pound wasn't banned as a recovery tactic. It was banned as a stall tactic. If you go high up in the air and keep doing rising pound, you won't lose altitude (or as some people say. I can't do it)

 

[poorboy93]

Okay, I meant the "Pro gamers have no life" stereotype doesn't deserve stereotype status and is flat out wrong. Does that help clarify my point?

Jiggly's rising pound wasn't banned as a recovery tactic. It was banned as a stall tactic. If you go high up in the air and keep doing rising pound, you won't lose altitude (or as some people say. I can't do it)

Yeah, not all pro gamers dont have lives, but some pro gamers dont... Im not saying if your a pro gamer, you dont have a life, but some do... I met some people who play WoW, and have lives.. and I have met people who play WoW and dont do **** then just play WoW... -__-

and thanks for the corrections, its not that hard... all you have to do is jam your control stick up after using pound...

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Yeah, not all pro gamers dont have lives, but some pro gamers dont... Im not saying if your a pro gamer, you dont have a life, but some do... I met some people who play WoW, and have lives.. and I have met people who play WoW and dont do **** then just play WoW... -__-

and thanks for the corrections, its not that hard... all you have to do is jam your control stick up after using pound...

Oh, I can EASILY rising pound. I just can't do it so many times in a row that you do not lose any altitude at all whilst doing so (you know, I can't time it right).

 

[poorboy93]

Oh, I can EASILY rising pound. I just can't do it so many times in a row that you do not lose any altitude at all whilst doing so (you know, I can't time it right).

lol sorry for the misunderstandment
I got confused... I main jiggly and learned it to piss off friends XD
Practice makes perfect? ahaha but whats the point of learning a skill that you cant use in tourneys? being a complete *** to your friends =]

 

[Corigames]

Jiggly's gay rising pound was banned with the godly recovery

LIE. Using it as a stall tactic was banned, but not for recovery reasons.

Oh and stereotypes work for most people...

Except when they are wrong to begin with >_>

 

[LavisFiend]

Stereotypes are based off factual evidence regarding people grouped by either skin color, hobbies, musical tastes, clothes, etc.

Individually, not everyone will fit the bill; there are always exceptions.

However, stereotypes for the most part, are true.

Reason for this being that the stereotypes deal in general sightings, meaning that it is hard not to be part of a stereotype if you share something that fits the bill, which sadly, holds to be true 90% of the time.

 

[Nasanieru]

I agree with Gimpy. When I started playing I tried to play it like Melee, utilizing combos, gimp kills, etc. The very short hitstun in Brawl discourages this playstyle, and now I'm being forced to adapt to a new style of play. Playing extremely defensively and "smart camping" is not very fun IMO, and playing against others in this fashion to me feels like a chore. The crazy recovery that everyone has just makes things worse. Competitive SSB took a major hit from these new gameplay mechanics, I'm not sure how the game is going to fare at this rate.

Just for the record, this is coming from someone who has been playing smash since the launch of SSB64.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Stereotypes are based off factual evidence regarding people grouped by either skin color, hobbies, musical tastes, clothes, etc.

Individually, not everyone will fit the bill; there are always exceptions.

However, stereotypes for the most part, are true.

Reason for this being that the stereotypes deal in general sightings, meaning that it is hard not to be part of a stereotype if you share something that fits the bill, which sadly, holds to be true 90% of the time.

There are tons of stereotypes that don't even fit the majority of the group. In fact, I'd say the majority of stereotypes don't apply to the greater part of the group.

 

[LavisFiend]

There are tons of stereotypes that don't even fit the majority of the group. In fact, I'd say the majority of stereotypes don't apply to the greater part of the group.

The biggest point I am trying to make is that no matter what it is you do, no matter what you look like, or what you wear, you will fit in a stereotype.

There is no point in worrying about it, because everybody fits into a stereotype.

For example, I like country music, I live in the boonies, I have a southern slur, but the common stereotype is that I am dumb as dirt and can't speak properly because I am redneck.

Needless to say, that is not true. =P

 

[Corigames]

The biggest point I am trying to make is that no matter what it is you do, no matter what you look like, or what you wear, you will fit in a stereotype.

There is no point in worrying about it, because everybody fits into a stereotype.

For example, I like country music, I live in the boonies, I have a southern slur, but the common stereotype is that I am dumb as dirt and can't speak properly because I am redneck.

Needless to say, that is not true. =P

Someone could be typing for you >_>

It's not like we are face-to-face right now.