Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Tofu Beast]

I don't understand why Nintendo is backing out of the competitive scene. Especially in the case of Smash Bros.. With such a big competitive scene, they would have been much better off to make it as competitive as possible. And what's with Sakurai saying that it feels bad when people lose. What kind of ******* does he think that the Smash Community are??!!

 

[MookieRah]

The fact of the matter is that people really think that Sakurai consciously (key word) took things out of Brawl just to spite us (no other reason). People really think that! Mookie... you can't possibly believe that those devs did anything in Brawl just to piss you off.

They didn't do it to spite us. I just said that Sakurai probably doesn't hate competitive players, but he intentionally did everything he could to stifle competitive play. That said, skilled players will still beat unskilled players. What I'm talking about is a match between two skilled competitive players, which would devolve mostly in a defensive camp fest in which both parties had to worry about random tripping.

 

[Zek]

I don't understand why Nintendo is backing out of the competitive scene. Especially in the case of Smash Bros.. With such a big competitive scene, they would have been much better off to make it as competitive as possible. And what's with Sakurai saying that it feels bad when people lose. What kind of ******* does he think that the Smash Community are??!!

The "smash community" as you put it is pitifully small compared to "the people that buy the game." It's not difficult to understand why any successful dev team's priority is the latter.

 

[distr0ia]

It seems your inherent hatred for "glitches" and your apparent lack of understanding for them and/or the competitive scene doesn't allow for you to enjoy intense matches. Only a handful of people get worked up over stuff like this, and most people tend to think that matches between 2 pros are much much more exciting than two random "non glitching" players who aren't nearly as skilled.

don't jump to conclusions, Mookie. I could WD and L-cancel with the best of them (I still catch myself trying to L-cancel in Brawl)and knew exactly what was happening on the screen when I watched. okay, maybe it wasn't always boring lol like when the guys from Lansing showed up and started thrashing everybody with DK and G-dub...but for the most part, it was just like watching countless variants of the same d*mn match over and over again and you know what I'm talking about

 

[MookieRah]

it was just like watching countless variants of the same d*mn match over and over again and you know what I'm talking about

How is not using advanced techs better at not being the same thing over and over again?

Seriously, so far you just talk about how much you think AT's broke the game. You've yet to say why not using them is more exciting and/or not broken.

 

[LouisLeGros]

You know why posts like these disgust me? Because the poster, in order to truly believe what he's saying, has to really believe that Sakurai and Co. had some kind of vindictive hatred for the competitive community. I'd put 10$, right now, on the bet that anything found in the E4All demo was taken out not because it 'required skill'... but because it was unintentional.

That's it.

There's no reason to think that Sak and Co. sat there and thought, 'You know, I bet those a**holes at smashboards would love this. Let's take it out!' That's you being bitter. The fact of the matter is that we had NO REASON to assume that Brawl would be anything like Melee. We made assumptions that Brawl had to emphasize combos, technical skill, and speed, assumptions that were unfounded. We assumed that the E4All demo would be exactly like the final product, assumptions that were, frankly, stupid. (It's a demo; why would we think that?) We brought this disappointment upon ourselves, and now we need to fix the problem we made for ourselves by disregarding all of our previous notions about what is 'competitive Smash' when we discuss Brawl.

Melee has its competitive standard. It's time we make a new one for Brawl and only Brawl.

The new competitive standard has become camping, spamming and well Brawl is so shallow and defensive oriented that there isn't much more to it then that.

Then were you around for the 64 to melee transition? It seems like you are just making assumptions when you said the competitive players didn't like melee because they were measuring it by smash 64 standards and they are now doing the same thing with brawl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rrPlxpYaNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgOkRyG3ho

This is what Brawl competitive play is degrading too. The competitive players are adapting to brawl and abandoning the melee competitive thinking. Those videos are the results and they are pretty much what gimpy has said what brawl is turning into.

 

[RaptorHawk]

You know why posts like these disgust me? Because the poster, in order to truly believe what he's saying, has to really believe that Sakurai and Co. had some kind of vindictive hatred for the competitive community. I'd put 10$, right now, on the bet that anything found in the E4All demo was taken out not because it 'required skill'... but because it was unintentional.

It doesn't matter if it was unintentional. Developers find things that were unintentional all the time in games before they are released and they keep them in anyway. WAVEDASHING was not intentional and they found out about it before melee's release, but THEY KEPT IT. And like mookierah pointed out. Sakurai said himself he tried as much as he could to level the playing field between all players so everyone had a chance of winning. This is not something that helps competitive play at all.

There's no reason to think that Sak and Co. sat there and thought, 'You know, I bet those a**holes at smashboards would love this. Let's take it out!' That's you being bitter. The fact of the matter is that we had NO REASON to assume that Brawl would be anything like Melee. We made assumptions that Brawl had to emphasize combos, technical skill, and speed, assumptions that were unfounded. We assumed that the E4All demo would be exactly like the final product, assumptions that were, frankly, stupid. (It's a demo; why would we think that?) We brought this disappointment upon ourselves, and now we need to fix the problem we made for ourselves by disregarding all of our previous notions about what is 'competitive Smash' when we discuss Brawl.

Melee has its competitive standard. It's time we make a new one for Brawl and only Brawl.

Nobody here thinks Sakurai hates the competitive comunity. We just know thats not what he wants in his game. And nobody here assumed brawl would be like melee.

The assumption that brawl would have combos, and tech skill is a VERY valid one. Since the two previous games both had them.

Also I'm sure NOBODY assumed the E4ALL demo would be EXACTLY the same as the final product. Otherwise what is the point for the demo? We just assumed it would be similar. Since you know....most final products are.

 

[Jack Kieser]

They didn't do it to spite us. I just said that Sakurai probably doesn't hate competitive players, but he intentionally did everything he could to stifle competitive play. That said, skilled players will still beat unskilled players. What I'm talking about is a match between two skilled competitive players, which would devolve mostly in a defensive camp fest in which both parties had to worry about random tripping.

Ok, Mookie. So you don't believe Sak hates SWF. That doesn't change the fact that other people do.

As far as the match between two skilled players, I agree with you, up to a point. I ask (partially cause I'm uninformed), how many live (read: not online), serious, large-scale Brawl tournaments have we had so far? How many devolved into camp-fests? Even better (more point-proving) question... how many had (*gasp*) items on?

See my point? Why aren't items on? Because we hold preconceived notions about them based on our experiences in Melee. Who knows; maybe to make Brawl competitive, we have to turn on certain items (not all, certain). The point is that, based on Melee's measuring rod, items = random badness, thus we don't even try them in Brawl. What I'm saying is that I'm personally not going to pass judgment until every single possible avenue has been thoroughly tested. I'm a scientist; that's just how I roll.

 

[Tofu Beast]

Can someone explain to me why the demo was better??!!

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

whaat!? characters with relatively slow normals turtling?!?! and playing defensive?!


that hasent been around for 15+ years.


wait.. are they using good projectiles in a defensive ways as well?! MADNESS!

 

[KhannKlan]

Meh, it's sad. Brawl could have been way, way better than this. Sakurai is a fool, cause he had the ability to make this game much better, but instead his politically correct "everyone is a winner" mentality made Brawl into a randomized party game that is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

Thankfully this is his last smash game, and Nintendo will be able to find someone more enthusiastic and creative to lead their next project (of course there will be one, how much money does this franchise make?). The problem I find with the game is the same that I find in Nintendo's mind set. They shut themselves out from the rest of the gaming community and instead of taking pointers from other consoles, they go completely their own way.

That isn't to say that their products, Nintendo is actually the only thing I would buy because they are the only actually creative gaming company left that isn't just pumping out first person shooters onto the market. The problem with both Nintendo and Smash is that they try so hard to appeal to that casual audience that it forces the regular gamer to deal with a less satisfactory product. Instead of noticing that online is a critical point in modern gaming, Nintendo goes with the tedious and unnecessary Friend Code do make sure nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Sakurai did the same thing for Brawl, friend codes and extremely limited online options make online easy to pick up and play, but incredibly shallow, there isn't even a leaderboard (other than third party) or downloadable content, which could have been a great way to get rid of bugs in the game and take community suggestions to fix the game. He also failed to note that Melee was very successful because of its simplicity AND advanced techniques, allowing for party and competitive play, he forced his safe, childproof fun on everyone and completely cut out some of the most satisfying parts of the game.

However, even though this post may seem completely Anti-Brawl, I still prefer it over melee. The game is much more balanced, tiers are much less hindering, items can actually be integrated into skillful play without too much whining, and just because one gay tactic (gimp combos) are replaced with another (camping) doesn't mean that the game is doomed to fail. These are two different games, and I'm pretty sure that Melee will eventually start up again for the people that prefer it, but in the circle of players that I Brawl against, all of us prefer it over Melee.

 

[Tofu Beast]

I really don't know why no one complained about the game at E for All.. or after the Japan release...




BTW


THANK GOD ( Youko) THAT TYLOTP IS BANNED!!!!!

 

[Tofu Beast]

where did everyone go?!!

 

[Cbone]

Mookie Rah and Gimpy(among others, those were the two that stood out) are right.

In my opinion at least. I especially liked the argument comparing Brawl supporters to be arguing based on their faith towards brawl. I am sorry, but when people start arguing that combos are bad for a game i just say wtf...I honestly don't think anyone can deny that the best feeling and best part of fighting games is getting a crazy combo. People who say otherwise are just trying to desperately defend brawl in any way possible. I just shook my head at the MANY people who said combos take away from a game.

...For competitive players.

The games lifespan will continue to thrive with or without. Casual tournaments will still exist.

Competitive players dying interest will not destroy Brawl.

unfortunately for you logic, how many games exist that have stayed alive for long periods of time and haven't been competitive? Maybe there is one, but i haven't heard of it. I can think of WoW but even it has competitive aspects now because blizzard realizes that without a competitive aspect it will die. Also it doesn't count because its a MMOPURGAH! When you say "casual players will keep the game alive", i can't see how that will happen because you will get bored of the game. Everybody does. It's the competitive aspect that people get addicted to. Also...wtf is a "casual tournament"...sounds like an oxymoron to me. Also don't say a tournament with no money because then it isn't a tournament it is just a series of ordered friendlies. There is nothing tournament about it=P. Yes i had a problem with every single one of your lines=P. It is not the dying interest of the competitive players, its the dying interest of EVERYONE. Because casual players interest dies as well its just MUCH faster.(unless people see that a game has no competitive value.)

 

[RizardoLawless]

If brawl does end up being proven horrible and unplayable (as in it is playable in a bad way) competitively then there is 2 things we can blame. One is sakurai who now i refuse to believe is a human being lol.. And 2 the Wii... Yah the Wii because some of the things that were simplified or removed from the game (even sakurai admitted) were due to the game's ability to have like 4 different controllers. If this was released on the gamecube (which only has the gc controller) it would have been way more likely for the game to be made more complicated.

What the hell are you talking about. You coulda made Melee compatible with 100 controllers and it wouldn't change the physics of the game.

 

[channlsrfr]

The Intrinsic Perspective

I want to try to take a new angle on this discussion. There are two basic points of view on this thread: (1) competitive Melee players who like speed & combos, and (2) n00bs and non-competitive veterans who don’t understand why Group 1 cares so much about speed and combos. As a current member of Group 1, and former member of Group 2, I think I can help Group 2 understand.

I started playing Melee in June 2006. I sucked. To this day I haven’t made it to many tournaments (I work full-time), but I’ve gotten good enough so that I can beat Mr. Peabody’s Falco and Danimal’s Fox. (Sorry to use you guys as examples, but you’re the only “names” I’ve had the honor to play against. Tavo, also, but I couldn’t beat his Sheik with my Samus, dyarg.)

Anyway, I want to explain a point that’s been missed thus far: When a competitive player plays a match, he is competing against himself. Only indirectly is he playing against another person. Smash Brothers is not about humiliating another person; it’s about bettering oneself. This is the aspect in which Melee shines, and in which I have doubts about Brawl. Why?...

If you want to get a lot of fulfillment out of a game, you have to be able to put a lot in. In Melee, the room for dedication is huge: Isai dropping, shield dropping, foxtrotting ... even just L-cancelling requires dedication and different timing for different moves ... whether the opponent is shielding or not, etc. ...

But the utmost reward you can achieve for devoting time and effort to a fighting game is the ability to combo. Period. There is only so much enjoyment you can derive from spot-dodging a grab; you can’t exactly write home about tricking your opponent into an air-dodge. There needs to be something more. This is why comboing is so important to a fighting game – intrinsic reward. The ability to instantly judge a situation and visualize a string of several moves – and then to execute it correctly – is a type of enjoyment no n00b can understand without having done it. It is the epitome of the fighting game.

If you take away hitstun (and therefore the ability to combo), then from the competitive player’s point of view, you have neutered the game. Literally, you’ve cut out its balls. You’ve destroyed the very essence of the fighting game and all hope that its gameplay will reproduce in any meaningful way.

Maybe Brawl will have answers, but we have yet to see. I hope I’ve helped non-competitive players understand better where we’re coming from.

 

[Chaosblade77]

unfortunately for you logic, how many games exist that have stayed alive for long periods of time and haven't been competitive? Maybe there is one, but i haven't heard of it. I can think of WoW but even it has competitive aspects now because blizzard realizes that without a competitive aspect it will die. Also it doesn't count because its a MMOPURGAH! When you say "casual players will keep the game alive", i can't see how that will happen because you will get bored of the game. Everybody does. It's the competitive aspect that people get addicted to. Also...wtf is a "casual tournament"...sounds like an oxymoron to me. Also don't say a tournament with no money because then it isn't a tournament it is just a series of ordered friendlies. There is nothing tournament about it=P. Yes i had a problem with every single one of your lines=P. It is not the dying interest of the competitive players, its the dying interest of EVERYONE. Because casual players interest dies as well its just MUCH faster.(unless people see that a game has no competitive value.)

I guess that means that only a few select games games released prior to the... say 6th generation of gaming. I mean, games like Super Mario 3 and heck, even the original Pokemon games LIVED off their competitive game, right?

The game doesn't HAVE to be competitive to "stay alive." I mean, people here act like the only reason Melee sold 7 million copies was because of the hardcore competitive players? Just how many people fit into that group? Less than 100,000 worldwide?

I am not so foolish as to say that the competitive community didn't help, but the game would have thrived without it. The only thing in danger is the competitive game. To Nintendo, it's not a problem. To probably 90% or more of the people who had Melee for GCN, it's not a problem. To SWF and the competitive Smash Bros scene, it is a problem.

I guess I fail to understand why major tournament hosts would move on to Brawl if the vast majority of the competitive Smash community wants to stick with Melee. It may be a loud minority, but it seems like most of the people from competitive Melee prefer Melee.

 

[J18]

i'd say that makes sense, but personally i still think people are going to play brawl.
i don't see us going back to melee

 

[Gamerjoe]

I do not have a particular stance on the debate of Brawl’s competitive value versus Melee’s. I also feel that fundamentally, this debate will go on forever. Basically, regardless of how one party feels as opposed to the other, so long as enough people enjoy playing Brawl and are enthusiastic about it, Brawl will develop a tournament scene. Its lifespan will last as long as the player base remains large and feels enthusiastic enough to continue it. In the end, regardless of who says what, so long as there is enough fun to be had playing Brawl, then it will flourish.

I’m simply curious about what elements of Brawl you Mookie, consider most important to competition that are actually existent (in Brawl), whether they are remaining elements from Melee or new elements to Brawl? Does your impression of Brawl discourage you from playing it competitively, like you did Melee?

Also I’m curious about your opinion too, Jack. On what aspects do you agree with Mookie, in terms of Brawl discouraging competition? Do you play Melee in tournaments and do you plan to play in Brawl tournaments?

I’m really just trying to form my own opinion, but I’m having a hard time because I just do not see a compelling argument one way or another. Like I said, regardless of what was removed from the transition to Brawl from Melee, so long as the game is coherent and fun enough, it cannot be immediately counted out as a possibility for a long-lasting tournament scene. Only time will tell that.

 

[homsar]

Less combos? Yes.

Less skill? No.

I think brawl will be a more mind game based game. Doesn't mean it takes any less skill. It just is a different skill.

 

[shadydentist]

Good post, channlsrfr.

Made me remember why Falcon was so much fun to play in Melee, and so depressing to play in Brawl.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

my, my, what a melt down!!

smash brothers isnt the only game to lose its deep gameplay after a new installment.. if you've played mvc1 then played mvc2.. you can definitely see a glaring difference in which is harder to get better at

i honestly dont think brawl wont lose its audience due to it not be competitive though. people will play this game for years, it just has too much fan service. the competitive community might move on, but people who are completely oblivious to this sort of stuff won't.. until the next smash brothers.. i know people who played smash bros 1 to this day.

 

[pirkid]

my, my, what a melt down!!

smash brothers isnt the only game to lose its deep gameplay after a new installment.. if you've played mvc1 then played mvc2.. you can definitely see a glaring difference in which is harder to get better at

i honestly dont think brawl wont lose its audience due to it not be competitive though. people will play this game for years, it just has too much fan service. the competitive community might move on, but people who are completely oblivious to this sort of stuff won't.. until the next smash brothers.. i know people who played smash bros 1 to this day.

I'm still going to play Brawl. I know for sure that others will play Brawl no matter.

Soon enough, moving back into a GC era will fade away. It just seems illogical, while a few people may start to play Melee again and Melee tourneys may start up again, Brawl will always be the mainstream.

Do we REALLY need another thread saying this.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Post this in Scar's thread. BTW I wholely agree. Combos are in development for Brawl, but they will never become part of the main stream game. It's okay, there will be another Smash, and there will probably be two modes in it, noobs mode, and normal mode.

P.S. It's beyond me why the dumbed down this game. They should have put in an interactive tutorial for the noobs that let's them learn combos and ATs. Sakurai probably has the philosophy that he wants the whole family to play his game. However, every noob that has played Brawl still says it's too hard and give up against me.

The gameplay of two casuals in Melee and Brawl is identical, but pros could use so much more in Melee.

 

[batsman415]

Only (almost) 3 weeks, (almost) 3 weeks..........

 

[channlsrfr]

Less combos? Yes.

Less skill? No.

I think brawl will be a more mind game based game. Doesn't mean it takes any less skill. It just is a different skill.

You're correct to say there are two different kinds of skill: technical vs. mindgames. But since Melee had both, and it seems Brawl's technical skill requirements will be minimal, it is also correct to say that Brawl will require less skill overall.

And to answer what the point of arguing this is: I really would like to see Melee continue to be used in tournaments instead of Brawl -- at least until they discover more of a technically stimulating metagame for Brawl.

Will they use Melee in tournaments? Probably not. But we Melee players and lovers of real competitive gameplay need somewhere to vent and complain about this, and this is where we go. We appreciate your eyes.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

Yes, but only because so many people would buy it when it came out.

 

[goodoldganon]

sadly, I agree. Too bad, 7 years of good times in Melee. I forsee 2 tops for me and my buddies. (Good thing we graduate and I'll have a real job and be on my own, so I won't have the time I had for Melee)

 

[homsar]

You're correct to say there are two different kinds of skill: technical vs. mindgames. But since Melee had both, and it seems Brawl's technical skill requirements will be minimal, it is also correct to say that Brawl will require less skill overall.

And to answer what the point of arguing this is: I really would like to see Melee continue to be used in tournaments instead of Brawl -- at least until they discover more of a technically stimulating metagame for Brawl.

Will they use Melee in tournaments? Probably not. But we Melee players and lovers of real competitive gameplay need somewhere to vent and complain about this, and this is where we go. We appreciate your eyes.

Just to let you know. I am a competitive melee vet, granted not the greatest one because I lack the mindgames, but I was as technical with samus as you could get. Just thought Id put that out there so you can see we both come from the same background. Also, Ive been on the boards since 05 (longer then you I might add) and have many more posts, so please don't discredit me as some scrub who knows nothing. I do know what I'm talking about (granted I'm not perfect, I will have imperfections).

Anyways, on to counter points. As you said, melee did have technical and mind skills, and yes, brawls technical is lacking, but that is not to say it doesn't exist. Id like to turn your attention to this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151405 That would be pikachus new tech, the Quick Attack Cancel. People are already using B-Sticking and that to achieve insane mindgames, speed and though not combos in the traditional sense they can link moves together.

Also, please take no offense to this, but who are you to say that brawl takes less skill. Since it is clear that advanced techs will take a smaller role now, mind games are the dominate skill. If you are saying that brawl takes less skill because advanced techs are not as good then you are saying that mind games are inferior to advanced techs. This is horribly inaccurate.

If anything, what I learned from playing and talking to people better then me is that mindgames take just as equal, if not more skill, then advanced techs. You see, in melee you could practice by yourself all the time and learn every tech out there but when you go to fight an experienced human that has attended many tourneys you would still likely lose. The reason being that the human will have better mindgames then you. Advanced techs just let you pull off combos in melee, it was mindgames that put you in the position to do so or avoid said combos.

Now in brawl, with the reduced advanced techs, the role of mindgames has changed but there fundamental need remains the same. In brawl mindgames don't let you set up for a combo, now they let you set up for a hit, a single hit. After that hit (or miss if the opponent predicts you) you have to quickly re-evaluate and and try other mindgames to score another hit (or miss) and then another, so on and so forth. Doesn't it make sense that being able to hit consecutively in brawl is rather skillful if you need to set up for each hit? Melee you only had to set up for the combo and then you were guaranteed many hits (as long as you don't screw up, I'm assuming in this post that the players dont). Which seems more skillful to you?

Also, since Brawl has mindgames flying back and forth more now it creates a much more even match and overall, a more balanced roster as every character now has a chance to fight back through mindgames (and isn't this what fighters strive for?). This is unlike melee because in melee, a smart mewtwo will (almost) never beat a fox or marth or falcon or shiek. This does not mean that its dumbed down and that scrubs will be able to beat vets though. The smarter player will win in the brawl competitive scene, just as in the melee one. You just have use your brain more then you do in melee.

 

[Gluttony]

I have been a lurker for some time but I don't see what's wrong with the defensive playstyle of Brawl. I enjoy Melee but I think a defensive style, even if there's a lot of camping, will be fun as well. I agree with the users who claimed that people should treat brawl and melee as completely different games. I agree that their should definately be tournaments for both. The defensive play style does support forms of competitiveness and I don't think those videos that were posted make Brawl look "********."

In my eyes people can view that the same as Melee videos. Such as when someone completely slaughters someone without fighting back. To some that might be stupid or boring. I don't think so. I think both are intense, personally but in different ways. From the videos posted there is one thing that bothers me. The second video, if you read the comments, Gimpy is thanking OS. In this thanks he says "Thank you for showing how ridiculously gay brawl is." What kind of mature comment is this? The use of the word "gay" speaks volumes. I had respect for you gimpy but.. that was a little out of hand.

I'll reiterate what I said before. Both games should be treated as completely different games. Just because you don't like how defensive this game is over the offensiveness doesn't mean there's no skill involved. You may not like it but some people do. I enjoy both games. This is just my humble opinion. Yes, I'm new on these forums. I don't care if you dislike my opinion. I know that many retaliate when people say they like Brawl "Can you stand watching those kind of matches?" Yes, I can.

P.S. I agree with Homsar's post.

 

[Linoleum33]

Also, please take no offense to this, but who are you to say that brawl takes less skill. Since it is clear that advanced techs will take a smaller role now, mind games are the dominate skill. If you are saying that brawl takes less skill because advanced techs are not as good then you are saying that mind games are inferior to advanced techs. This is horribly inaccurate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one was saying that mind games are inferior to advanced techs. And you are correct in saying that someone with great mindgames can sometimes defeat an opponent with greater tech skill.

But if melee required both aspects of the game to succeed, where as in brawl the technical skill requirement has been lowered. Just like you said, the mindgame aspect is dominant in brawl; thus, only one facet of the game has to be truly mastered. Doesn't this imply that brawl takes less skill than melee?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now in brawl, with the reduced advanced techs, the role of mindgames has changed but there fundamental need remains the same. In brawl mindgames don't let you set up for a combo, now they let you set up for a hit, a single hit. After that hit (or miss if the opponent predicts you) you have to quickly re-evaluate and and try other mindgames to score another hit (or miss) and then another, so on and so forth. Doesn't it make sense that being able to hit consecutively in brawl is rather skillful if you need to set up for each hit? Melee you only had to set up for the combo and then you were guaranteed many hits (as long as you don't screw up, I'm assuming in this post that the players dont). Which seems more skillful to you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, being able to hit consecutively in brawl is not rather skillful. Setting up for single hits is a tactic that most basic smash players have been learning since smash 64. Combos are the evolution of the single hit set up, because it takes practice and experience to pull of a string of "guaranteed" hits.

Second, even if setting up for single hits requires intense ability and skill, it is completely not rewarding to the aggressor. In melee, if you set your opponent up right, of if they overextended themselves and made a mistake, then you could follow up and PUNISH them. Your technical skill determined the amount of punishment you could dish out, either in the form of combos or advanced edgegaurding. A single hit punishment, in addition to virtually non-existent hit stun, leads to minimal punishment for making mistakes. It throws the entire risk-reward system of any good fighter out the window by putting the aggressor at an extreme disadvantage.

This brings it back to gimpy's OP. The winning mindgame in brawl isnt setting up for single hits, it is camping and putting the aggressor at a disadvantage, because they have limited options for approaching and punishing camping. And since camping takes little technical skill (compared to the advanced techs of melee), brawl takes less skill overall.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, since Brawl has mindgames flying back and forth more now it creates a much more even match and overall, a more balanced roster as every character now has a chance to fight back through mindgames (and isn't this what fighters strive for?). This is unlike melee because in melee, a smart mewtwo will (almost) never beat a fox or marth or falcon or shiek. This does not mean that its dumbed down and that scrubs will be able to beat vets though. The smarter player will win in the brawl competitive scene, just as in the melee one. You just have use your brain more then you do in melee.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, big props to channlsrfr's post

 

[Dark Sonic]

but I was as technical with samus as you could get.

That title definately goes to Phanna buddy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1EceHJi8Bw He uses that stuff in real matches. And he's found even more random technical stuff now (aerial interupts?!). Most characters have an extremely high tech skill cieling, and that cieling is even unreachable (or at least you're not expected to reach it even if you're good) for some characters. The closer you get to that cieling, the more options for mindgames you have.

Melee hit a nearly perfect balance between techskill and mindgames. Techskill allowed you to sufficiently punish your opponent for making a mistake, and the more techskill you had the more options you had for punishment. However, you still had to get your opponent to make the mistake in the first place.

Brawl has made a mistake with removing hitstun. It has shattered the basic concept of risk:reward, by making the reward far too small in comparison to the risk. We are trying to work around this as best we can, because we really don't enjoy camping matches. Just know that until we find some kind of great reward for successfully approaching, people will continue to camp because it is the better option. In melee camping styles and aggressive styles were both viable and both had great appeal tactics wise. Since they yielded similar results (you'd have the advantage) people often went with the one that they personally considered more "fun" (which was often the more engaging aggressive style). But that only came after they figured out that both strategies were winning strategies. Now that aggressive play is no longer a winning strategy, camping is the only viable option left. That is the current problem that needs to be solved. We're just afraid because there is no logical solution, and thus if a solution is even found it will likely take a long time to be found because it will be some kind of unorthodox oversight.

 

[SmashMan Marth]

Im not sure if this has been posted yet, but for those people who are worried about lack of hitstun, Heavy Brawl could be an alternative. Yes, I know, it does not change the fact that there are still only a limited amount of techs, but at least you can chain a combo on them (with practice and getting used to the gravity of course). The problem with Heavy brawl though is that it uses a special option and not a default, so it probably will not become standardized in tournaments even if it did become very popular.

Heres the link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158712

Now, I'm not saying that you HAVE to try this, it's just a suggestion and i thought it would be helpful.

 

[Samochan]

Also, please take no offense to this, but who are you to say that brawl takes less skill. Since it is clear that advanced techs will take a smaller role now, mind games are the dominate skill. If you are saying that brawl takes less skill because advanced techs are not as good then you are saying that mind games are inferior to advanced techs. This is horribly inaccurate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one was saying that mind games are inferior to advanced techs. And you are correct in saying that someone with great mindgames can sometimes defeat an opponent with greater tech skill.

But if melee required both aspects of the game to succeed, where as in brawl the technical skill requirement has been lowered. Just like you said, the mindgame aspect is dominant in brawl; thus, only one facet of the game has to be truly mastered. Doesn't this imply that brawl takes less skill than melee?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now in brawl, with the reduced advanced techs, the role of mindgames has changed but there fundamental need remains the same. In brawl mindgames don't let you set up for a combo, now they let you set up for a hit, a single hit. After that hit (or miss if the opponent predicts you) you have to quickly re-evaluate and and try other mindgames to score another hit (or miss) and then another, so on and so forth. Doesn't it make sense that being able to hit consecutively in brawl is rather skillful if you need to set up for each hit? Melee you only had to set up for the combo and then you were guaranteed many hits (as long as you don't screw up, I'm assuming in this post that the players dont). Which seems more skillful to you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, being able to hit consecutively in brawl is not rather skillful. Setting up for single hits is a tactic that most basic smash players have been learning since smash 64. Combos are the evolution of the single hit set up, because it takes practice and experience to pull of a string of "guaranteed" hits.

Second, even if setting up for single hits requires intense ability and skill, it is completely not rewarding to the aggressor. In melee, if you set your opponent up right, of if they overextended themselves and made a mistake, then you could follow up and PUNISH them. Your technical skill determined the amount of punishment you could dish out, either in the form of combos or advanced edgegaurding. A single hit punishment, in addition to virtually non-existent hit stun, leads to minimal punishment for making mistakes. It throws the entire risk-reward system of any good fighter out the window by putting the aggressor at an extreme disadvantage.

This brings it back to gimpy's OP. The winning mindgame in brawl isnt setting up for single hits, it is camping and putting the aggressor at a disadvantage, because they have limited options for approaching and punishing camping. And since camping takes little technical skill (compared to the advanced techs of melee), brawl takes less skill overall.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, since Brawl has mindgames flying back and forth more now it creates a much more even match and overall, a more balanced roster as every character now has a chance to fight back through mindgames (and isn't this what fighters strive for?). This is unlike melee because in melee, a smart mewtwo will (almost) never beat a fox or marth or falcon or shiek. This does not mean that its dumbed down and that scrubs will be able to beat vets though. The smarter player will win in the brawl competitive scene, just as in the melee one. You just have use your brain more then you do in melee.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like this post. :3

I'd also like to add that with new game mechanics and limited movement, the mindgame aspect of the game is severely hindered. Mindgames are about using your opponents logic against you, but you most definitely cannot do that if there is no room for you to punish your opponent from being predictable. For example, rolling. Even if you knew your opponent would roll behind you and you wait for it to happen, rolling on brawl is so quick, that you have to actually do your action before they roll to be able to punish them, otherwise even if you were to succesfully know they roll behind you, you're just too slow to react and so is your character.

One other way to mindgame your opponent is to bait them to make a wrong choice, where you can then capitalise on. With brawl, we are severely lacking on options on the attack side. While shielding covers almost every possible method of attacking in this game besides projectiles and grabbing, attacking gets limited in options. You cannot bait someone to do something you can capitalise on if they can automatically shield and cover all the options. Same like if you needed to only use parry instead of high, mid and low parry, so you do not need to watch out at which height you parry, but just parry. This is furtherly made worse by the fact that shielding is blatantly overpowered in this game, which encourages the use of shielding even more. Not forgetting that many other forms of defense were taken away on brawl, like crouch canceling, wavedash back, dash dance, along with lots of attacking methods like shffle, crouch cancel c-stick smash, float canceling... nevertheless, they do not take away the fact that shielding is overpowered and thus, should be abused.

 

[Lecto2007]

It would be nice for once for people to actually speak their minds or the truth without briniging Gimpyfish's Reputation into the matter, anyother member and this would have been flamebait and closed within minutes.

 

[Jackal478]

I don't see why people say Brawl has no combos.

Hell, I get more combos in Brawl than I did in Melee.

 

[Gluttony]

I dislike when people say that the only thing to master is mindgames. This isn't true. People must master the defensive tactics in brawl. People have to set up their opponent to drop their defense or attack in order to counter attack. If they refuse to attack. You have to learn to be able to approach, use mind games, and strike your opponent as he makes the wrong defense. This is the part where people bring up that you can't combo or severely punish but the opponent did get punished. He got hurt. This makes for some long matches but I actually like the defensive gameplay. Just as I said I enjoy the offensive gameplay of melee.

This makes both games completely different animals. So one has to learn how to properly dodge, shield at the right times, and counter. Plus the opponent has to know how to consistantly do this in order to win. You can't win off one hit so you have to learn to keep making your opponent mess up. Keep getting a few hits in here and there. Until they're able to be finished off. Like I said, this makes for some long matches but some of us like it that way. I'm NOT saying that I like it better than melee or that it is better than melee but I think both are good in their own ways.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Muhaha, Melee will come back one day! *Evil Laughter"

Ignore this post, I don't want to start **** with people that prefer Brawl.

Edit:

I don't see why people say Brawl has no combos.

Hell, I get more combos in Brawl than I did in Melee.

Because there is no stun off of attacks! Any time you get hit, you can just airdodge or hit your opponent back before they can combo!

 

[Gluttony]

Muhaha, Melee will come back one day! *Evil Laughter"

Ignore this post, I don't want to start **** with people that prefer Brawl.

Edit:




Because there is no stun off of attacks! Any time you get hit, you can just airdodge or hit your opponent back before they can combo!

Some of us like both because the two games are opposites of each other. I don't see why there can't be tournaments for both. I'm sure plenty will show at a brawl tournament or a melee tournament. Maybe the melee tourny people will show up for both and vice versa.

 

[camzaman]

As a casual who understands all the advanced techniques, it seems that this is what the competitive players are saying:

Brawl is very different than Melee, but the most important factor hindering satisfying competitive play is the lack ofhitstun, which prevents comboing?

I could agree with that.