Brawl vs. Melee Research Project

[L/A/W]

yeah, but thats only one of the few matches, melees gay moments are nothing compared to bralws

also kirby kid by practical tech skill, he means the kind of tech skill that you can pull of in a match with good results and by aesthetic tech skill he means what you see in "revolution" lol

 

[joeplicate]

There is a lot of interesting things to say about knowledge skills or how the mind can keep up with games like Melee. Not to give too much of the next episode away, LTM (long term memory) and MM (muscle memory) are quite important. So, the players aren't thinking any faster, rather, it's like they've already done the thinking before. That's kind of a strange description, but I'm sure it'll make sense when I explain it later.

Good instincts.

yeah, supposedly m2k only uses muscle memory when he plays tournament sets, like he doesn't think. i don't know the psychology of the game, or how humans actually react to it, but i know what you're talking about. to train, m2k likes to practice against computers and hone his muscle memory in on certain situations.

i agree with long-term memory and muscle memory; LT is recognizing a situation and bringing it back up from your memory banks (and thinking of a solution sometimes, right?), and muscle memory is doing the physical actions to bring your plan into existence in the game. if you replace my words of "conscious thought" with these two processes, you still get the same thing.

jman nairs mango's shield.
long term memory- time to shine out of shield
muscle memory- wait out shield stun, jump and down B

but, i would argue that they still are "thinking faster," contrary to what you say, because as players get better they check the screen for patterns they recognize more and more often (as in, more times per second). i can say from experience that your game shoots way up once you start "checking" the screen more often. mango is incredible at doing this, it's why he can constantly change and adapt his plan. i'm about 99% sure that this is one of the most important things to becoming a better player.

Understood. Good thing I got you guys to back me up. Still, do you make a distinction between high level and top level? Cause I think I've been saying high level and tournament level this whole time, which isn't the same as the top level to me.

i basically meant top level. "high level" is too subjective, but i really mean mango/m2k/armada level of play. it can just sound cliched when people use the phrase "top level play" over and over like it somehow proves their point, and i don't want to sound like "top level" means "this is the best humans can ever play," but yeah, i'm talking about top level pretty much


i'm gonna have to watch these videos now embarrass

btw you are a beast for putting all this together and actually responding to every post



edit: also note that "practical" tech skill and "aesthetic" tech skill aren't that far apart (i personally think this is a bad distinction)

aesthetic tech skill is just tech skill that you have in reserve and are looking for some place to apply it during the match

believe me, lovage's practical tech skill is uncanny

(the biggest difference is how on-lock it is, usually people think of "practical" tech skill as the moves you're comfortable to use in tournament, under pressure. however, i'd say that even using it in a focused friendly in ideal conditions is still "practical")

 

[Lovage]

i agree












with joe

 

[Metal Reeper]

You can't compare L canceling waveshining (other fast actions in melee) to button mashing in brawl. And to glide toss Dacus etc in Brawl you don't have to be fast, just have to know the timing (which is sooo easy lol.

 

[joeplicate]

i just watched the videos

i think you're doing a really good job so far

 

[Black Mantis]

Yeah good job on the videos.

 

[kirbykid]

i agree with long-term memory and muscle memory; LT is recognizing a situation and bringing it back up from your memory banks (and thinking of a solution sometimes, right?), and muscle memory is doing the physical actions to bring your plan into existence in the game. if you replace my words of "conscious thought" with these two processes, you still get the same thing.

Pretty much. Though I think it'll help if you think of LTM and MM as the unconscious mental processes, while STM is the conscious part. STM is the RAM computing of the mind. LTM and MM is the huge hard drive. To consciously process anything from the LTM/MM, you have to load a bit of it into STM. We do a lot of thinking in our unconscious mind, yes. But because that part of our mind is very difficult to navigate and understand, I consider all analysis to happened via the STM.

but, i would argue that they still are "thinking faster," contrary to what you say, because as players get better they check the screen for patterns they recognize more and more often (as in, more times per second). i can say from experience that your game shoots way up once you start "checking" the screen more often. mango is incredible at doing this, it's why he can constantly change and adapt his plan. i'm about 99% sure that this is one of the most important things to becoming a better player.

I'll get into this in the next video (which I'm writing and hopefully filming/editing today). But right now you use "thinking" to refer to a number of mental processes. The problem is because just about all of our skill can be lumped into either mental or physical actions, you can technically say that knowledge, timing, reflex, and adaptation are all different ways of "thinking." I completely understand where you're coming from.

But to help us make clear distinctions, I separate what you can "check[ing] the screen" into reflex (or how your perception feeds you info).

Furthermore, for now I still think that people don't think any faster, which is to begin to explain the complex relationship between knowledge skill (like LTM) and the rest of the skill spectrum. There's something known as information reduction, or our ability to learn to filter out unnecessary information from our consciousness. The more we know about a game and how it's played (on whatever level) the better we can develop and use LTM to basically help us not think of anything we don't need to. By doing this, we free up our STM and put less stress on our reflexes to "check" the screen better. But this doesn't mean we increase our base ability to think or "see."

That's the real technical way of looking at how the game rules and the neuroscience match up. Hopefully I'll explain things like this better in the videos. But I think these concepts are important to know.

i basically meant top level. "high level" is too subjective, but i really mean mango/m2k/armada level of play. it can just sound cliched when people use the phrase "top level play" over and over like it somehow proves their point, and i don't want to sound like "top level" means "this is the best humans can ever play," but yeah, i'm talking about top level pretty much

Ok. You don't think I can get a little wiggle room by using "high level?"

You can't compare L canceling waveshining (other fast actions in melee) to button mashing in brawl. And to glide toss Dacus etc in Brawl you don't have to be fast, just have to know the timing (which is sooo easy lol.

Hopefully we can grab some data on exactly how many frames fast you need to be to do these things because just saying it's not "fast" is a bit like a subjective opinion. Also, there's often an inverse relationship between dexterity.speed and timing skills. In other words, the slower something gets, the less dexterity.speed you need and the more timing skills you need.

btw you are a beast for putting all this together and actually responding to every post

i just watched the videos

i think you're doing a really good job so far

Yeah good job on the videos.

Thanks.

Back to work for me!

 

[mastermoo420]

So someone quoted an article and thought it was all about Brawl, only to find out it was actually said about Melee, then turned it around and said it applied more to Brawl then to Melee?

Ironic.

The reality is that Sakurai's quote is more about items and stages then it is about any other mechanic in Smash. With most of this removed in both Brawl and Melee, Sakurai's quote is irrelevant.

I just wanted to point out that, if you want to hold this true, then you'll have to be consistent and say that authorial intent (or whatever) as referenced in the first webisode thing would have to count, too. If authorial intent doesn't matter, then our interpretation of the quote is fine.

Either way, GO MELEE, lol.

 

[phanna]

filled out the survey, is this still going on or am I too late?

 

[BEES]

There should be a category for those of us that like Melee more, and consider it a deeper, more technical game, but do not consider some of the technical barriers in the game a positive... necessarily.

The lack of a buffer system, for instance, arbitrarily forces you to spend more time perfecting the timing of certain attacks. Do I consider that a positive quality to the game? No. I also think L-canceling as it is implemented in Melee has no strategic value. I would rather see attack-specific cancels (like jump canceling, and IASA sequences). The original L-canceling implementation in Brawl before they removed it would have tied it to fastfalling. If you fastfell, the landing lag on the aerial decreased. I think that was a good idea too.

In Brawl, the few things that are technically difficult are only difficult because they have to be. It is the nature of the move. Pikachu's QAC, Sonic's JC spindash, Falco's SHDL... all require speed and dexterity because they are fast.

I think Wavedashing in Melee is another tech skill that is difficult simply by nature. It adds a lot of strategic variety that Brawl simply lacks, and it's a skill that beginners romanticize about. JC shines and JC grabs are also good examples.

Am I the only person in the world that likes Wavedashing and hates L-canceling? Maybe...

But I prefer the fast, combo-based playstyle in Melee over Brawl in pretty much all respects. I liked it enough to get past the tech barriers and play it anyway.

You could call this the Brawl+ perspective for simplicity, I guess. At some point kirbykid, I'd love to see it addressed in the videos.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Falco's SHDL is technically difficult? Really?

 

[Big-Cat]

There should be a category for those of us that like Melee more, and consider it a deeper, more technical game, but do not consider some of the technical barriers in the game a positive... necessarily.

I think I'm in this spot more than anywhere else. Melee's not perfect, but I'd rather play this than Brawl.

The lack of a buffer system, for instance, arbitrarily forces you to spend more time perfecting the timing of certain attacks. Do I consider that a positive quality to the game? No. I also think L-canceling as it is implemented in Melee has no strategic value. I would rather see attack-specific cancels (like jump canceling, and IASA sequences). The original L-canceling implementation in Brawl before they removed it would have tied it to fastfalling. If you fastfell, the landing lag on the aerial decreased. I think that was a good idea too.

You have to be careful with buffer systems though. Looking at Brawl, that game has a 10 frame buffer when something like BB's 5 frames or maybe even 3 frames would be enough. I'm in favor of attack-specific cancels.

In Brawl, the few things that are technically difficult are only difficult because they have to be. It is the nature of the move. Pikachu's QAC, Sonic's JC spindash, Falco's SHDL... all require speed and dexterity because they are fast.

I think Wavedashing in Melee is another tech skill that is difficult simply by nature. It adds a lot of strategic variety that Brawl simply lacks, and it's a skill that beginners romanticize about. JC shines and JC grabs are also good examples.

I don't think it needs to be difficult. TO me, it doesn't matter if you can do some long combo, an extremely difficult AT, or whatever. What matters to me is if you can do it strategically. That's not to say that there should be no execution skill, but it shouldn't be needlessly difficult to do. Of course, this depends on what you're talking about. If we're talking about something you're likely to do quite a bit in each match, it shouldn't be hard. If it's something very rewarding and not something you'll always have the chance to do it, there should be some difficulty.

Am I the only person in the world that likes Wavedashing and hates L-canceling? Maybe...

Nope. I despise L-Canceling.

 

[joeplicate]

Pretty much. Though I think it'll help if you think of LTM and MM as the unconscious mental processes, while STM is the conscious part. STM is the RAM computing of the mind. LTM and MM is the huge hard drive. To consciously process anything from the LTM/MM, you have to load a bit of it into STM. We do a lot of thinking in our unconscious mind, yes. But because that part of our mind is very difficult to navigate and understand, I consider all analysis to happened via the STM.

makes a lot of sense. i was wondering quite how the two related, RAM is a good analogy

I'll get into this in the next video (which I'm writing and hopefully filming/editing today). But right now you use "thinking" to refer to a number of mental processes. The problem is because just about all of our skill can be lumped into either mental or physical actions, you can technically say that knowledge, timing, reflex, and adaptation are all different ways of "thinking." I completely understand where you're coming from.

But to help us make clear distinctions, I separate what you can "check[ing] the screen" into reflex (or how your perception feeds you info).

Furthermore, for now I still think that people don't think any faster, which is to begin to explain the complex relationship between knowledge skill (like LTM) and the rest of the skill spectrum. There's something known as information reduction, or our ability to learn to filter out unnecessary information from our consciousness. The more we know about a game and how it's played (on whatever level) the better we can develop and use LTM to basically help us not think of anything we don't need to. By doing this, we free up our STM and put less stress on our reflexes to "check" the screen better. But this doesn't mean we increase our base ability to think or "see."

That's the real technical way of looking at how the game rules and the neuroscience match up. Hopefully I'll explain things like this better in the videos. But I think these concepts are important to know.



Ok. You don't think I can get a little wiggle room by using "high level?"

this is basically the way i understand the game, and it's based on my own experience, but i'll talk about it just to get it out there. the way i think of "checking the screen" is that you are looking for more and more situations in which to apply your reflexes. it's the most basic place where you start looking for opportunities, or the place where you compare what's happening against your long term memory. "reflexes" is a term that (to me) denotes the physical action of responding to a situation with your own answer.

information reduction can play a large part in improvement, but just because you get better at focusing on the right things doesn't mean that your skills at checking the screen don't improve. information reduction is only one part of your mental game that improves as you gain more experience. after all, instead of using it solely to focus on analyzing the "right" things, why wouldn't you combine it with faster reflexes, and use it to think about MORE right things, faster?

i feel like i have experience with both information reduction and reflexes, and i can say that they're most effective when they're used together. however, i think that IR is a mostly subconscious process; learning to read your opponent, focusing in on the right things, and not getting baited all seem to improve with experience.

i believe that, on the individual level, players absolutely learn how to see faster and consider more situations per second, and this is still a huge part of getting good. maybe it's true that today's players can't necessarily "see" faster then ken or azen in 2006, for example, but there are more options we know now, more responses to a given situation, and the link between long-term memory and what happens in the game is a lot stronger and more reliable. hence, better tech skill.

*i think high-level or top level doesn't really matter, and viewers will know what you mean

anyways, i'm really looking forward to the next video. i'll save a bigger critique/response for then.

 

[L/A/W]

Falco's SHDL is technically difficult? Really?

haha this, you have to slow your input in order for it to be useful

 

[mastermoo420]

Oh, also:

yeah, supposedly m2k only uses muscle memory when he plays tournament sets, like he doesn't think

There is no way M2K would think while he plays. He has so much frame data up in his head that if he even tried to think while playing Melee, his head would implode.

 

[BEES]

You have to be careful with buffer systems though. Looking at Brawl, that game has a 10 frame buffer when something like BB's 5 frames or maybe even 3 frames would be enough. I'm in favor of attack-specific cancels.

I would be in favor of different buffers for different things. Dashing and Airdodging maybe zero, then 2-3 for some attacks and up to 5 for other attacks (like recovery moves).

 

[Big-Cat]

I would be in favor of different buffers for different things. Dashing and Airdodging maybe zero, then 2-3 for some attacks and up to 5 for other attacks (like recovery moves).

That makes sense then. You'd probably want a buffer for something like jump canceling.

 

[BEES]

I should just learn to code and make the dumb game...

 

[kirbykid]

Good Game episode 2 part 2!

filled out the survey, is this still going on or am I too late?

It's never too late! I read all entries (more than once for most of them). If contribute something that I can use in a vid, I'll definitely use it. And if you volunteer to be a part of the moderated/structured debate, then I'll surely consider you.

By the way, I've gotten 264 responses so far.

There should be a category for those of us that like Melee more, and consider it a deeper, more technical game, but do not consider some of the technical barriers in the game a positive... necessarily.......

.....You could call this the Brawl+ perspective for simplicity, I guess. At some point kirbykid, I'd love to see it addressed in the videos.

You present a lot of interesting ideas. Some are in regards to changes that can be made to either game. Most likely at the end of the webisodes there will be a summary and a sort of "what if" and speculation segment.

this is basically the way i understand the game, and it's based on my own experience, but i'll talk about it just to get it out there. the way i think of "checking the screen" is that you are looking for more and more situations in which to apply your reflexes. it's the most basic place where you start looking for opportunities, or the place where you compare what's happening against your long term memory. "reflexes" is a term that (to me) denotes the physical action of responding to a situation with your own answer.

information reduction can play a large part in improvement, but just because you get better at focusing on the right things doesn't mean that your skills at checking the screen don't improve. information reduction is only one part of your mental game that improves as you gain more experience. after all, instead of using it solely to focus on analyzing the "right" things, why wouldn't you combine it with faster reflexes, and use it to think about MORE right things, faster?

i feel like i have experience with both information reduction and reflexes, and i can say that they're most effective when they're used together. however, i think that IR is a mostly subconscious process; learning to read your opponent, focusing in on the right things, and not getting baited all seem to improve with experience.

i believe that, on the individual level, players absolutely learn how to see faster and consider more situations per second, and this is still a huge part of getting good. maybe it's true that today's players can't necessarily "see" faster then ken or azen in 2006, for example, but there are more options we know now, more responses to a given situation, and the link between long-term memory and what happens in the game is a lot stronger and more reliable. hence, better tech skill.

*i think high-level or top level doesn't really matter, and viewers will know what you mean

anyways, i'm really looking forward to the next video. i'll save a bigger critique/response for then.

A lot of good stuff was said here. I want to dive deeper into it, but I'll wait until you watch part 2 of episode 2 to see if any of the new terms help with our discussion.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm going to watch the episode again, but I felt that you used a lot of big words. Not to say that you did this to sound smarter, but I think you're making things more complicated than need be.

Also, you might want to do something about the sound. There were times where I couldn't hear your voice over the background videos.

 

[MarioMariox2]

I got really deep in this survey.

 

[kirbykid]

I'm going to watch the episode again, but I felt that you used a lot of big words. Not to say that you did this to sound smarter, but I think you're making things more complicated than need be.

Also, you might want to do something about the sound. There were times where I couldn't hear your voice over the background videos.

That's interesting. Lots of big words, or about as many big words as the other videos? Episode 1 had the word "conflagration." I don't think anyone noticed. I am an English major after all. Among many things I do love using words (even if I lose sight of a few things).

Episode 2 part 2 has a lot of terms that are very important to have. If you think I'm making things overly complicated, I assure you that video games are even more so. Even in this thread, we're trying to discuss the intricacies of how players develop a sense of "checking the screen" more efficiently. Understanding this requires some level of understanding of how the human mind/body works.

I thought I checked all of the sound levels. I test everything with head phones, maybe that's the problem. I'll see what I can do.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

So the games you made are on the GG website?

 

[kirbykid]

So the games you made are on the GG website?

The links are at the very top of my blog. I guess you can call that the GG website.

It should be obvious which links they are (Knowledge, Dexterity, Timing, and Reflex).

 

[Geist]

If you haven't already stated it explicitly, what exactly do you not agree with? And remember, speed dexterity isn't all about button mashing moves. I just picked those as an easy example. Anytime you input a "quick" sequence of moves that's speed dexterity also. Jump, nair, fast fall, da dash, tilt. This is a speedy sequence that I've done in Melee (Kirby) and Brawl (Pit).

Nevermind what I said before in that paragraph, you touched on it in the second video.
My second point was that pretty much every character in melee can play at high speeds like spacies and falcon, dependant on the player.

I'm not sure what you mean by practical versus aesthetic technical ability. Can you explain it again?

Right, well my bad.
Think of it this way - Silent Wolf has proved that it's possible to register over 400 apm in his tech skill videos, but there aren't any situations where that's even close to necessary.
So my point is that melee's speed threshold is by far superior to Brawl's, but the actual threshold is never achieved, whereas there has never been an instance where my finger speed was technically inadequate while playing Brawl - it was always more about learning the timing for specific techniques.
Quick clarification, when I say practical technical ability I mean what is actually required in the game; in melee Dashdancing, Lcancelling, SHFFLing, etc is required to win, where multishining 30 times in place is not.
Aesthetic technical ability is pretty much flashyness, or anything that isn't absolutely necessary. For instance if you can multishine someone's shield until it breaks, all the more power to you, but why not just grab?

So far these videos are getting better and better, keep up the effort. :]
(although there was a curious plunking sound in the background...)

 

[L/A/W]

best one yet, good job

 

[Big-Cat]

That's interesting. Lots of big words, or about as many big words as the other videos? Episode 1 had the word "conflagration." I don't think anyone noticed. I am an English major after all. Among many things I do love using words (even if I lose sight of a few things).

Episode 2 part 2 has a lot of terms that are very important to have. If you think I'm making things overly complicated, I assure you that video games are even more so. Even in this thread, we're trying to discuss the intricacies of how players develop a sense of "checking the screen" more efficiently. Understanding this requires some level of understanding of how the human mind/body works.

I thought I checked all of the sound levels. I test everything with head phones, maybe that's the problem. I'll see what I can do.

I watched it again. I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention the first time so that may have been why as I understood everything you said.

As for Brawl having more mindgames, I'm going to say that this is a myth. Now, I didn't get competitive with either game so take my words with a grain of salt. Because of the decrease in hitstun, and random tripping getting rid of any safe footsies, I would say that the percentage of mindgames is larger, but the amount is still the same. It only seems like more because other things are not there.

The sound really does need to be fixed. I have headphones on with max settings on Youtube and my laptop and your video still sounds soft.

 

[kirbykid]

best one yet, good job

Nevermind what I said before in that paragraph, you touched on it in the second video.
My second point was that pretty much every character in melee can play at high speeds like spacies and falcon, dependant on the player.

Right, well my bad.
Think of it this way - Silent Wolf has proved that it's possible to register over 400 apm in his tech skill videos, but there aren't any situations where that's even close to necessary.
So my point is that melee's speed threshold is by far superior to Brawl's, but the actual threshold is never achieved, whereas there has never been an instance where my finger speed was technically inadequate while playing Brawl - it was always more about learning the timing for specific techniques.
Quick clarification, when I say practical technical ability I mean what is actually required in the game; in melee Dashdancing, Lcancelling, SHFFLing, etc is required to win, where multishining 30 times in place is not.
Aesthetic technical ability is pretty much flashyness, or anything that isn't absolutely necessary. For instance if you can multishine someone's shield until it breaks, all the more power to you, but why not just grab?

So far these videos are getting better and better, keep up the effort. :]
(although there was a curious plunking sound in the background...)

Thanks for the clarification.

Darn that plunking. My mic that I record my voice overs likes to plunk. I'll see what I can do.

 

[Ryuker]

As for Brawl having more mindgames, I'm going to say that this is a myth. Now, I didn't get competitive with either game so take my words with a grain of salt. Because of the decrease in hitstun, and random tripping getting rid of any safe footsies, I would say that the percentage of mindgames is larger, but the amount is still the same. It only seems like more because other things are not there.

I don't know if it has less mindgames but what did bothered me was that the reward when your mindgame succeeds wasn't as high as I found them in melee. That has to do with the large range of defensive options kirbykid mentions in his video's. It means I have to do a lot of work to get you in the right position but it's easier for them to get out of it. So always found that I was thinking to hard compared to the results I was getting. That made matches for me more tiring than they should be.

Haven't gotten around to commenting on your large list of examples yet Kirbykid. I don't wanna rush it and I'm kinda not liking the idea of just arguing by theory crafting about them. But maybe later.

 

[kirbykid]

I don't know if it has less mindgames but what did bothered me was that the reward when your mindgame succeeds wasn't as high as I found them in melee. That has to do with the large range of defensive options kirbykid mentions in his video's. It means I have to do a lot of work to get you in the right position but it's easier for them to get out of it. So always found that I was thinking to hard compared to the results I was getting. That made matches for me more tiring than they should be.

There are a lot of things to talk about from what you described here. I think I'll address them when I get to the subject of balance.

Haven't gotten around to commenting on your large list of examples yet Kirbykid. I don't wanna rush it and I'm kinda not liking the idea of just arguing by theory crafting about them. But maybe later.

No rush. No worries.

 

[melee43vr]

we all know melee is more competitive and skillful than brawl and that MLG needs to play melee because thats what pro gaming is all about . we should boycott brawl

 

[kirbykid]

we all know melee is more competitive and skillful than brawl and that MLG needs to play melee because thats what pro gaming is all about . we should boycott brawl

Based on the survey responses there are very few things that "we all know." The responses varied widely even among melee supporters.

One of the goals of this project is to get everyone on the same page.

 

[GodLi]

Again, as I said above, I can't mention everything.

You say that all characters are required to wavedash/land a lot at a high level? If so, I think this is a big exaggeration. I played melee all those years too. And now I'm combing through youtube and compiling a playlist of Brawl and Melee videos that showoff different match types. I have several high level vids (M2K/Hugs level) where there isn't much wavedashing or landing at all. Luigi wave dashes some, but not too much in a combo compilation vid I found. Samus jumps and shoots a lot of missiles and plays a tight ground game. Not a lot of wave landing there. She'd rather shoot a missile. Marth does a lot of dash dancing. Not a lot of wave dashing there either.

Marth does do a lot of dash dancing, but what about wavedashing?
In this video of M2K vs. Armada, he clearly wavedashes ~30 times
This match was under 6 minutes, showing that he, on average, wavedashed at least once every 12 seconds
THIS match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJLDGiwUEsc&fmt=18 , which lasted under 3 minutes, had 31 wavedashes! Amounting to more than 1 wavedash every 6 seconds

And claiming that samus does not wavedash much is a gigantic understatement
Looking at this video of a samus, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrwF-K8yNg0 , it is clear that wavedashing (and wavelanding) is a core component of Melee. Amounting to 52 wavedashes (and wavelands) in under 4 minutes, he wavedashes on average once every less than 5 seconds. How can this not be considered a core component of Melee?

In your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jczyAs7mU0&feature=player_embedded
You said "Sure, melee fox, falco,and falcon take a lot of speed to play at a high level, but they are the extreme examples. Outside of this group, the speed of input drops precipitously"

First, let's take a look at which characters "dominate" the competitive (tournament) scene
This compilation of data, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771 , ranks the characters according to their placement in tournaments. It awards points based on how the characters perform (10 for 1st, 7 for second, etc.), and larger tournaments are weighted with more points (see thread for explanation). It is CLEAR that Fox, falco, and falcon, DO dominate this, but jigglypuff, sheik, marth, and peach are all up there too!

Now let us examine the "precipitous drop" in speed input by taking a look at a thread that measures actions per minute of various characters. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234508

Isai's falcon has 185 APM
DaShizWiz's falco has 228 APM
Darkrain's falcon has 214 APM
Zhu's fox has 244 APM

NOW...
Pink Shinobi's Peach has 214 APM
Mew2King's marth has 178 APM
Mango's jigglypuff has 225 APM
Kira's Sheik has 193 APM
Vans's Peach has 270 APM

Even Aftermath's Samus has 214 APM!!!

So where exactly is this "precipitous drop" in dexterity?

And then in your video you comment about "button mashing" such as Pit's Angel ring attack or pikachu's neutral a...What's this trying to point out? This is the exact same in melee. Actually, it's much more! In brawl, merely holding the A button with a character with a jab that continues into an infinite will keep repeating this attack (try holding the A button when using fox in brawl). Furthermore, once you press a for the first hits of the attack, you just have to hold a to continue the infinite. In melee, one must keep pressing the button at a rapid rate. And meta knight's whirlwind attack is very comparable to mario, doctor mario, and luigi's down B, where mashing the button rapidly results in the character rising and increases it usefulness...they're practically the same move.

You bring up sonic's ability to interrupt his attacks as well...however, this is present throughout melee as well. Canceling the second jump with some characters (mewtwo, ness, etc) as well as utilizing peach's floating ability or shine canceling is quite similar

And talking about the dexterity needed to glide toss and such is much less than that needed to, for example, double shine with fox, scar jump perfectly, shine bair at high percents with falco, or even nairing as fast as possible ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bukOejeiUpw , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCZIXfxSObw&feature=related )

So seeing all of these comparisons of "dexterity," how can one say that they are the same?

 

[kirbykid]

Marth does do a lot of dash dancing, but what about wavedashing?
In this video of M2K vs. Armada, he clearly wavedashes ~30 times
This match was under 6 minutes, showing that he, on average, wavedashed at least once every 12 seconds
THIS match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJLDGiwUEsc&fmt=18 , which lasted under 3 minutes, had 31 wavedashes! Amounting to more than 1 wavedash every 6 seconds

And claiming that samus does not wavedash much is a gigantic understatement
Looking at this video of a samus, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrwF-K8yNg0 , it is clear that wavedashing (and wavelanding) is a core component of Melee. Amounting to 52 wavedashes (and wavelands) in under 4 minutes, he wavedashes on average once every less than 5 seconds. How can this not be considered a core component of Melee?

In your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jczyAs7mU0&feature=player_embedded
You said "Sure, melee fox, falco,and falcon take a lot of speed to play at a high level, but they are the extreme examples. Outside of this group, the speed of input drops precipitously"

First, let's take a look at which characters "dominate" the competitive (tournament) scene
This compilation of data, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771 , ranks the characters according to their placement in tournaments. It awards points based on how the characters perform (10 for 1st, 7 for second, etc.), and larger tournaments are weighted with more points (see thread for explanation). It is CLEAR that Fox, falco, and falcon, DO dominate this, but jigglypuff, sheik, marth, and peach are all up there too!

Now let us examine the "precipitous drop" in speed input by taking a look at a thread that measures actions per minute of various characters. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234508

Isai's falcon has 185 APM
DaShizWiz's falco has 228 APM
Darkrain's falcon has 214 APM
Zhu's fox has 244 APM

NOW...
Pink Shinobi's Peach has 214 APM
Mew2King's marth has 178 APM
Mango's jigglypuff has 225 APM
Kira's Sheik has 193 APM
Vans's Peach has 270 APM

Even Aftermath's Samus has 214 APM!!!

So where exactly is this "precipitous drop" in dexterity?

And then in your video you comment about "button mashing" such as Pit's Angel ring attack or pikachu's neutral a...What's this trying to point out? This is the exact same in melee. Actually, it's much more! In brawl, merely holding the A button with a character with a jab that continues into an infinite will keep repeating this attack (try holding the A button when using fox in brawl). Furthermore, once you press a for the first hits of the attack, you just have to hold a to continue the infinite. In melee, one must keep pressing the button at a rapid rate. And meta knight's whirlwind attack is very comparable to mario, doctor mario, and luigi's down B, where mashing the button rapidly results in the character rising and increases it usefulness...they're practically the same move.

You bring up sonic's ability to interrupt his attacks as well...however, this is present throughout melee as well. Canceling the second jump with some characters (mewtwo, ness, etc) as well as utilizing peach's floating ability or shine canceling is quite similar

And talking about the dexterity needed to glide toss and such is much less than that needed to, for example, double shine with fox, scar jump perfectly, shine bair at high percents with falco, or even nairing as fast as possible ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bukOejeiUpw , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCZIXfxSObw&feature=related )

So seeing all of these comparisons of "dexterity," how can one say that they are the same?

I appreciate your input. You provided a lot of links and paragraphs of explanation. You even challenged me directly by asking questions.

These are all great steps to take when facilitating a healthy conversation, but I must say this first.... I never said that the dexterity of melee to brawl is the same. As I've explained in this thread before, I merely said that you have think of things in a broader view than just fast inputs, you have to consider that the characters themselves change things a bit, and finally the player's playstyles.

That's quite a lot of data to consider, so until we have sufficient data from both sides (or until we narrow our focus a lot more) we can't say anything too conclusive about either game.

So I don't think all of this data you provided is enough to change anything at this time. I will say this...

I never said wavesliding wasn't an important part of Melee's current metagame. I tried to explain how important it is compared to other techs, which is a much more complicated issue that I'll readdress later.

As I explained before, it obviously depends on the matchup and the player. Even so, you can also look at what the waveslides are used for. Some do it excessively. Some use it to "taunt" inbetween kills. Some use it to space when other techniques would be better. Some use it to help them move around when nothing else will achieve the same results. And some only use it to get that first advantage, and then stop using it to follow up their attacks (combos or otherwise).

So just counting waveslides and minutes isn't going to cut it.

Fox, Falco, Falcon dominate. That doesn't mean others aren't up there too. This issue can be resolve with a bit of careful reading/listening. I'm thinking of this definition of dominate "to occupy a commanding or elevated position." It's important not to read more into statements than they speak to.

Looking at a few well known players' APM isn't enough. Where's the data from Kirby, Roy, Ness, Bowser, and G&W? If you want to see the drop, you'll need to look at more than the top characters played by some of the best players.

Also, speed dexterity is just one of 6 subcategories. It's likely that the slower game won't compare to the fast game on speed dexterity. But the more you push speed dexterity there's a good chance you lose a proportional amount of control dexterity. Getting to the bottom of this idea will take a much close look. Right now, no one has the data and the understanding to crack this issue.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

so far all I've heard you say is that there's not enough data

which is not incorrect

but you make no valid counterpoints

personally I'd like to hear your own opinion on the matter.

 

[kirbykid]

so far all I've heard you say is that there's not enough data

which is not incorrect

but you make no valid counterpoints

personally I'd like to hear your own opinion on the matter.

Looking at things in these new comprehensive ways should show you that there isn't enough data. Even if you think there's a lot of Melee data out there, there would have to be the equivalent amount of Brawl data to do a proper comparison.

Right now I'm just setting up all the concepts and the language needed to tackle some big issues.

I definitely plan on taking some bold stances on a lot of issues by the end. If video games weren't so complicated, I wouldn't' have to go through all of this. But they are, so I'm taking my time.

 

[L/A/W]

kirby kid, instead of relying on all this data just give us your opinion. Its common knowledge that the great majority of the time, there are more button inputs in melee. You don't need data to see that an elephant is bigger than a dog (bad example i'm tired)

also referring to wavedashing/landing as wavesliding makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about as does saying samus doesn't use wavedashing imo

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

What exactly do you mean by data?

Survey results? Tournament results? What are these data?

 

[kirbykid]

kirby kid, instead of relying on all this data just give us your opinion. Its common knowledge that the great majority of the time, there are more button inputs in melee. You don't need data to see that an elephant is bigger than a dog (bad example i'm tired)

also referring to wavedashing/landing as wavesliding makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about as does saying samus doesn't use wavedashing imo

First of all, this is what I said... "I have several high level vids (M2K/Hugs level) where there isn't much wavedashing or landing at all." Hugs wasn't the best example, which I said. Still, he didn't wavedash/land too much to follow up his solid hits. If you're going to hold on to one mistake or possible mistake, then there's no point in continuing any kind of meaningful conversation/investigation.

Second of all, I'm not sure if you were around when the term was first coined, but back in the day, we called it wavesliding. The some people started to call it wavedashing, but I never changed. That's because I didn't feel like it. I call it wavesliding on purpose. I've been wavesliding in competition since a few months after Melee was released.

What exactly do you mean by data?

Survey results? Tournament results? What are these data?

I'm not really interested in opinion. To make accurate statements, like real scientist/researchers, you need to look at real data. Video games may be complicated, but opinions aren't the highest level we can reach.

So for data I could use all the frame data for every attack and every character in both games. I could also use detailed frame by frame animations of all the attacks with hitboxes drawn. I could use information on all the stages from the sizes of platforms, angle of terrain, speed of transformation, to the sizes of the entire field.

From there tournament results with video would be nice for every year of Melee and Brawls life.

Assuming that all this data hasn't been collected (or organized), we have to either take things slowly and/or narrow our focus. I'm doing both.

 

[Pink Reaper]

KKK there was something I disagreed with in the beginning of your vid. You stated that in Melee combos, in general when on the defensive all you can do is DI but that's not 100% correct. This is technically only true in chaingrabs(which is what you were showing at the time) however in non-grab combo's you also have the ability to Smash DI, wiggle out of hitstun(note for players who dont already know, "wiggling" out of hitstun does NOT decrease the amount of time you're in hitstun, it just gets you out on the first possible frame) and, utilizing Smash DI, tech. Teching is especially important in this case because the opportunity to do it arrives far more often, at least from what i've seen, in melee than in Brawl. By a combination of DIing certain hits and Smash DIing at the right time you can force yourself in position to tech off of certain things like platforms or the ground itself.

Now, this is in no way an attack on Brawl, Brawl equally has all of those options as well, it's the same basic gameplay, however I would be willing to assert that the added hitstun and general lack of floatieness(is that a word? If it is how is it spelled?) make it a more prominent and usable option in Melee. I'd still be willing to accept that Brawl probably has more options while on the defensive due to the multiple air dodge system, but I wouldnt say it's so much more that they even really stand apart from each other.