Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
OMG it's me! I hope those other KirbyKids have learned to hide their faces when I show up!
Authorial Intent. Sorry if I didn't enunciate well enough.
By loaded I meant that it's going to take a lot of work to answer it. I plan on revisiting that myth toward the end of the video series.
exactly what we were all thinking.
i agree.
Also l-canceling. Which would be much easier if it were in Brawl. Thanks, buffer.
First of all, thanks for watching the video and taking time to respond in detail.
Again, as I said above, I can't mention everything.
Just check out my channel and click on playlists. The Brawl vs Melee is the only playlist posted. It contains 42 videos. Just look at M2K play marth. Not a lot of wavedashing. Look at hugs. Look at the Luigi combo video. It looks like there's a lot more dashdashing than wavesliding going on.
Well, if you don't want to listen to what I'm saying rather than what you feel, that's fine. How you "feel" is largely based on your own perception and biases. In the video I said both games take a lot of dexterity, and we'll need to look at more data to proceed from here. But for now, we're moving on. I was careful not to use the word "equal."
Not saying that L-cancelling isn't huge but I still believe you're underestimating the importance of wavedashing. Take something like wavedashing out of shield as an example. That's a huge option for any character.
Well, the thing is that I feel that way because it's basically what you said.
They can still be compared.
Is anyone watching the same videos that I'm watching? The vids in the Brawl v. Melee playlist on my channel? A lot of theory was mentioned in these responses, but I'm mainly looking at actual cases. The problem with talking in theory is that there are so many different factors and cases to consider. Characters, playstyles, and levels all change things. I don't think it would be too hard to find a vid that agrees with me and a vid that agrees you you guys. How are we to reconcile this huge pool of data we're trying to talk about (the entirety of Melee's game focused around the importance of two techniques)? Well, since we're not crunching any real numbers at this time, it would help if we at least look at the same videos.
Of course wavedashing has its uses. I didn't say it wasn't important. I didn't say it isn't one of the best choices in certain pressured or limited situations. But like I said above, it's just one movement option (with pros and cons) among many when close to the ground or on the ground. The 1:10 is a ration of relative importance. Overall, supporting that point would take a lot more data and explaining, so I'll hold off on that for now.
Link me to some videos please. Because otherwise, I'll continue to base things off of the Melee tournaments I hosted last year and the recent Melee videos. I may have stopped playing, but I haven't stopped observing.
These are keen observations. Wavelanding does change the way players can fight around platforms in Melee. I think "altered" is the correct word to use. Because things are different in Brawl, some strategies/options become less viable while others become more viable.
Hugs does wavedash a lot in some of his videos. He seems to have two distinct styles like how I described my Kirby. He wavedashes a lot (for what could be a variety of reasons) until he gets a hit. Then his follow up uses platforms, missles, max shots, down smashes, and tilts. While following up his hits, Hugs seems much more likely to walk around, dash dance, full hop, or just stand there. So if you just count wavedashes there are a lot of them there (many of which look like they're just "for fun"). Depending on how you weigh Hug's follow up game versus everything else, you could come up with two different views. 1) His wave dashing is an essential part of his whole game. or 2) his wavedashing is essential for getting that first good hit, which he follows up with much less wavedashing.
About incorporating ATs into a meaningful/effective game plan, that's a much more complicated issue that can only be addressed later (after more videos I mean).
If I can live with that, I can live with tripping. No worries. I think after I push past these basic/core concepts I'll be able to be very specific and I won't have to leave big issues hanging. Don't worry, Melee is going to get much love by the end.
I felt like I had to use broad generalization to get the basic point across. I thought by concluding with "we have to look at each character more closely to understand tech skill better" that any example I used would still be considered open for investigation.
Sometimes they're crazy teching got them in trouble. But to respond, I have to say that I had all of this in mind when I made those comments. I know about TAS videos, perfect control, and the skill ceilings that some of us are racing to get close to. 
I completely agree, but you have to be careful with these "random elements". As you know, I'm a SF player as well and play El Fuerte. The key thing with him is that you have to test the waters against your opponent, particularly what they do on wakeup. If they are/aren't doing something, exploit it. You have to adapt to what they're doing while mixing it up. This is, in a sense, random because you don't quite know what your opponent will do. If they do something unfavorable, you have to adapt. If they have an Ultra combo available, some tactics have to be put aside until that option's gone. Sometimes, you have to take big risks to hit them or bait them. This also applies to Super Smash Bros.There's no need to insert extra random elements because fighting games are like this fundamentally.
In theory, you don't take luck into account which is what's going on here. You can have someone who's lucky to rarely trip, but you can someone who has the worst luck possible and constantly trips. Once you take luck into account with random tripping, the game becomes impossible to have consistent results in comparison to Melee which already has random outcomes for Peach's Turnip, G+W's Judgment, and Luigi's Green Missle.
I haven't gotten into game design yet, but I can't say you can achieve the same effect with or without random elements. As mentioned earlier, with random elements, you lose some control which can lead to big differences.
I agree which is why I'm not attacking it just yet but instead waiting till you get more specific.
I'd love to see an example of this when you have time. Cause it see developers (and fellow students) reaching for random elements way to often to fix there games repetitiveness and I have these discussions a lot then.
I personally think tripping is a really dumb solution for the design problem they were having (which might have been "over use of dashing") but that's not my main point.
. You don't think they implemented randomness to achieve the above." That's a different type of randomness though than in brawl (if you can even call it that). The difference is that it's deducible. If they are throwing out random attacks then you catch them on the lag. If they aren't then it's deducible and you can try to read when and why they do it.
Perhaps so, but I would still consider this random because even with reading , taking into account options, and more, you're basically taking a gamble. People will use option selects when they aren't quite sure what will happen (but it is by no means guaranteed to have either outcome). I do agree that this is nothing like random tripping or the moves with random outcomes.
Yeah well I think you get my point
. I'm not familiar with high level sf4 play so I just base it off general assumptions that I have based on the mechanics features.
Looking at the definition of random as an adjective:Yeah well I think you get my point
The ultra's example sounds like general mindgames which is definetly not random.
).
I agree. I've done some studying and some questioning, but that doesn't mean I know everything. I'm sure I have some holes in my knowledge base somewhere, so I appreciate that everyone he is keeping me on my toes.
There is a lot of interesting things to say about knowledge skills or how the mind can keep up with games like Melee. Not to give too much of the next episode away, LTM (long term memory) and MM (muscle memory) are quite important. So, the players aren't thinking any faster, rather, it's like they've already done the thinking before. That's kind of a strange description, but I'm sure it'll make sense when I explain it later.
I hope I didn't imply that Melee hasn't changed much since 2006. If I did, perhaps I meant that the growing trend of its evolution has been steady and consistent?
I realize that trying to communicate something like which AT is more important/essential is too difficult at the point. I don't think I was even able to communicate what I really wanted to say about it.
Understood. Good thing I got you guys to back me up. Still, do you make a distinction between high level and top level? Cause I think I've been saying high level and tournament level this whole time, which isn't the same as the top level to me.i definitely respect you for doing this project, and i know it's a huge undertaking, but i believe you should try to be as objective as possible in things like this, and defer to experience whenever possible. frankly, i don't believe you have quite enough experience to make claims about top-level melee regarding tech skill. the game has changed an incredible amount, even from a year or a year and a half ago. again, i'm not challenging you personally, i just think it's important to remember the primary task of gathering data and excluding bias from your survey.
I don't think you can find a case where someone "trips all the time," but I know what you mean. Technically, you can't get "consistent" results from dashing in Brawl. That's how the random tripping works.
Depending on the type of random element (move/stage/item) you don't necessarily have to lose control over your character or what you do to the opponent. Technically, if you have no control over the random stage changes in pokemon stadium, then you can't lose control whenever it randomly picks a type to switch to. It all just depends on the random element/design.
At this point, we're just considering the different kinds of skill one can have dexterity wise. As far as APM goes, you count every button hit as an action. Things can get even more tricky from there when you consider things like double inputting for actions and option select.
I'm not sure what you mean by practical versus aesthetic technical ability. Can you explain it again?
Sure. Just off the top of my head. If these are the design/functional goals ...
Yes, you got it right.I personally think tripping is a really dumb solution for the design problem they were having (which might have been "over use of dashing") but that's not my main point.
Your free to like random elements ofc but I'm not talking personal taste. I mean that if you look at how designers generally balance things, that implementing random elements is most of the time because of the purposes I listed but I was just asking if you agreed on that and if you would agree that considering that that brawl wasn't designed with the intention of being competitive but chaotic but I think I understand your point of view now.
Have I got this right:
"You don't think just implementing tripping is enough to accuse the developer of favoring fun through chaos and luck instead of fun through controlled accomplishments(skill). So to you it's still possible that they designed the game with competition in mind
I wanna ask you then, for what other reason would they implement it?
Those reasons sound pretty accurate in my experience too. I also think that the game is so different yet so similar, you want to apply the same lessons learned from Melee to Brawl, but they just don't convert smoothly. This can be really shocking to some.
You know, after that post, I was thinking about tech chasing. I would call RPC random just because you don't know what your opponent will pull out, whether by accident or not; this is no different from our other examples like tech chasing.@KumaOso: Ah I see what you mean. You could compare that to for example some forms of tech chasing which has some guessing to it(not all of it since each char has different tech chases). Would you consider rock paper scissors random then? Cause there also a lot of mindgames that go in to it but if the player play's random they have no effect (my dad beat me at it once like that cause he didn't understand it or something and just did something
But we agree that the type of randomness in brawl is completely different since it's an outside influence.
Good. I just simply presented two extreme scenarios that demonstrate the flaws behind random tripping.
You can easily lose momentum when the stage switches randomly. It's one thing, though, if it switches cyclically every X seconds between stages as you can take advantage of it.
For the first one, that's a variation of what happens in other games. SF4 has combo scaling which makes infinites (but not loops) impossible. Guilty Gear, from what I hear, has gravity scaling. For an air combo, the amount of gravity on the damaged opponent increases over time. This gets to a point where it becomes impossible to attack the opponent because they have nothing fast enough to keep them in air. These two concepts also go hand in hand with the second concept you presented.
I find him rather idealistic. I don't feel like going into much about it right now, but if I can find the articles to back my belief, I'll post it.
